Am I imagining things, or did DE just nerf Void Sling and Zenurik?

[PollexMessier]

On 2022-05-06 at 6:02 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

 I mean if they want to make dash less spammable there are other ways they can do that without removing it.

Why does it even need to not be spammable?

This is a mentality of DE's I just don't understand. At some point they went from "players are doing this unintended movement thing a lot, let's make it a feature, or add something even better and more convenient that accomplishes the same thing!" (Coptering to Bullet Jump/all of parkour 2.0) to "Ew players are spamming something cus they want to move fast!? nerf it!"

It's awful. Nobody but DE hated the dash spam. It was fun and useful. And it doesn't have the excuse blink did of being so fast it invalidated the work they put into environments, and put players that didn't have a blink build far behind (and would make people be able to farm railjack faster god forbid, I'm positive this is the real reason). You COULD argue dash did do the second thing in missions but I guarantee anyone with titania, nova, gauss, or volt (possibly even wukong) could out pace someone void dashing so not as solid an argument as blink spam.

Why was spamming dash bad? What about sling actually made anything about it better? I heard the argument that it was about the angel fights and void flood parkour but no, sling is outright worse than dash would be for those things both functionally and control wise. It was a pointless change made because someone at DE said "spam bad" regardless of what's being ""spammed"" and why.

Are they gonna nerf bullet jump next? It sure as hell feels like it with how they treated this.

I agree about the having both thing tho. I think most people agree that we should just have both.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Why does it even need to not be spammable?

This is a mentality of DE's I just don't understand. At some point they went from "players are doing this unintended movement thing a lot, let's make it a feature, or add something even better and more convenient that accomplishes the same thing!" (Coptering to Bullet Jump/all of parkour 2.0) to "Ew players are spamming something cus they want to move fast!? nerf it!"

It's awful. Nobody but DE hated the dash spam. It was fun and useful. And it doesn't have the excuse blink did of being so fast it invalidated the work they put into environments, and put players that didn't have a blink build far behind (and would make people be able to farm railjack faster god forbid, I'm positive this is the real reason). You COULD argue dash did do the second thing in missions but I guarantee anyone with titania, nova, gauss, or volt (possibly even wukong) could out pace someone void dashing so not as solid an argument as blink spam.

Why was spamming dash bad? What about sling actually made anything about it better? I heard the argument that it was about the angel fights and void flood parkour but no, sling is outright worse than dash would be for those things both functionally and control wise. It was a pointless change made because someone at DE said "spam bad" regardless of what's being ""spammed"" and why.

Are they gonna nerf bullet jump next? It sure as hell feels like it with how they treated this.

I agree about the having both thing tho. I think most people agree that we should just have both.

[AlexMercer]

On 2022-05-07 at 2:01 AM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Serious question, how many people actually operator side/back dashed? I keep seeing people complain its gone, but at least on console I never knew it existed, let alone used it. 

I used it alot because it was fun and useful in some cases void dash is better in every way than void sling.

[Hayrack]

I just spent quite some time trying to climb short narrow wents on spy missions with Operator.

In past, I could do a quick dash up and forward, now I am twisting in my chair myself, trying to align Void sling, or else I'll clip the vent corner and fall back down again.

I assume, author of dash "rework" doesn't play the game.

[ZenDash]

On 2022-05-07 at 3:01 AM, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

Serious question, how many people actually operator side/back dashed? I keep seeing people complain its gone, but at least on console I never knew it existed, let alone used it. 

If you controlled a railjack with your operator you could back dash straight from the main pilot turret to the artillery for quick crewship takedowns

[Vixting]

Side dashing was extremely useful & very satisfying to use. Every time I use void sling it makes me reflect on why I liked void dash, still baffled on what supposed improvement void sling provides.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, ZenDash said:

If you controlled a railjack with your operator you could back dash straight from the main pilot turret to the artillery for quick crewship takedowns

This, I used this maneuver all the time. 

[Corvid]

11 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

It's awful. Nobody but DE hated the dash spam.

I did.

[PollexMessier]

5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I did.

Really? why

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

Really? why

I always felt that the emphasis on rushing through everything as quickly as possible was harmful to the game's experience. Might be because I joined the game when it was much slower in pace (coptering aside).

I was also of the opinion that the dash just didn't fit into Warframe's movement system in general. Unlike every other mobility option it does not interact with momentum in any way, which makes it feel like an aberration. Coupled with it being poorly suited for the majority of the game's tilesets, it just never seemed like a natural fit for the game.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 hours ago, Corvid said:

I always felt that the emphasis on rushing through everything as quickly as possible was harmful to the game's experience. Might be because I joined the game when it was much slower in pace (coptering aside).

I was also of the opinion that the dash just didn't fit into Warframe's movement system in general. Unlike every other mobility option it does not interact with momentum in any way, which makes it feel like an aberration. Coupled with it being poorly suited for the majority of the game's tilesets, it just never seemed like a natural fit for the game.

This makes no sense to me. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

DE Megan 

“In regards to Void Sling, we’re experimenting with directional changes such as strafing (sideways mobility) and backwards slings to allow more movement options. Strafe and back slings were tested during Void Sling’s development, but at the time we felt having similar directional control to bullet jump was important. Community feedback tells us that the more mobility options the better, and we are working on changes that meet that desire. Additionally we’re reviewing the code to resolve some Transference latency issues and considering other tweaks to Operators. ”

[Educated_Beast]

8 hours ago, Corvid said:

I always felt that the emphasis on rushing through everything as quickly as possible was harmful to the game's experience. Might be because I joined the game when it was much slower in pace (coptering aside).

I was also of the opinion that the dash just didn't fit into Warframe's movement system in general. Unlike every other mobility option it does not interact with momentum in any way, which makes it feel like an aberration. Coupled with it being poorly suited for the majority of the game's tilesets, it just never seemed like a natural fit for the game.

I played during coptering days and I couldn't disagree with you more.  The faster speed options the better.  Momentum in the void realm feels lame (to me).  

Void sling, like Valkyrs #1 ability is a gimmick at best.  If their goal was to make an ability unusable (because all frames do it better), they succeeded.  I no longer use it and been playing the fast frames instead (like the game needs more Wukongs).  

[PollexMessier]

9 hours ago, Corvid said:

I always felt that the emphasis on rushing through everything as quickly as possible was harmful to the game's experience. Might be because I joined the game when it was much slower in pace (coptering aside).

I was also of the opinion that the dash just didn't fit into Warframe's movement system in general. Unlike every other mobility option it does not interact with momentum in any way, which makes it feel like an aberration. Coupled with it being poorly suited for the majority of the game's tilesets, it just never seemed like a natural fit for the game.

Okay but did it's existence negatively affect your experience with the game?
Like I said there are faster options than dash so it's not like without it you wouldn't have players blasting ahead of you anyways. I rarely even see players using dash effectively enough to out pace even bullet jumping players except in straight aways.

If you dont like the rush through everything as quickly as possible mindset than direct your annoyance towards the game's S#&$ty rng that encourages you do this to get what you want within any reasonable amount of time. I'd happily take a leisurely jaunt through the game if I could get whatever I was after in 10 runs of any given mission instead of somewhere between 50 and 500.

Personally I liked it a lot mechanically. It reminded me a lot of the dash from hyperlight drifter. Carrying momentum through every movement option is not always desirable. The void powers themselves are an aberration so the fact that it feels that much different actually works well. It's only poorly suited to the game's tile sets if you're bad at using it, aside from the one major issue it had which is that you couldn't easily dash up. Also it was EXTREMELY suited to gas city. And If you think DE Cares about movement working with the tile sets, Zephyr has some words for you.

[cute_moth.npc]

1 hour ago, PollexMessier said:

Personally I liked it a lot mechanically. It reminded me a lot of the dash from hyperlight drifter. 

Now I'm just imagining trying to get through that spike challenge room again on new game plus lol

I like the rhythm of void dash, it's way easier to just point and dash than it is to simultaneously point, stay pointed and look at a stupid void spark indicator all at once, nevermind that dash was just more universally beneficial and gave a reason to use operator more.

I used to love operator combat and while I feel like the rework also brought some good ideas, they literally massacred the feel of the gameplay that I used to love - it went from being fast fast fast little glass cannon operator to slow, tanky and dull. 

They threw out something that players worked on so hard to unlock and learn over the last few years to have like.. a bubble popping section in a 60 second boss fight. Meanwhile they're scared to change weak augments in any meaningful way because "players use them still"

But like.. This is okay? 

[Corvid]

12 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I played during coptering days and I couldn't disagree with you more.

So what?

11 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

If you dont like the rush through everything as quickly as possible mindset than direct your annoyance towards the game's S#&$ty rng that encourages you do this to get what you want within any reasonable amount of time.

The irony is that you've got the cause and effect mixed up (or at the very least you've failed to recognise the vicious cycle). RNG became more extreme as a direct consequence of players being able to trivialise and speedrun through missions. It's the only way to stop us from burning through months of dev work in a matter of hours.

[(PSN)max141064]

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The irony is that you've got the cause and effect mixed up (or at the very least you've failed to recognise the vicious cycle). RNG became more extreme as a direct consequence of players being able to trivialise and speedrun through missions. It's the only way to stop us from burning through months of dev work in a matter of hours.

People already sh*t on DE for giving them an affinity cap or nightwave as a way to keep them coming back each day and i found it extremely funny. 

what should DE do? not having ways to make them come back to play each day? lol 

[PollexMessier]

53 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The irony is that you've got the cause and effect mixed up (or at the very least you've failed to recognise the vicious cycle). RNG became more extreme as a direct consequence of players being able to trivialise and speedrun through missions. It's the only way to stop us from burning through months of dev work in a matter of hours.

If we had less rng but slower gameplay to the point of it taking just as long ether way....

Then it takes just as long ether way... The time it takes is the issue.

It's not respecting players' time.

We have lives, and other games we want to play, which is why we optimize grinds like this.

I think they're way too focused on what the group of players that have already completed everything in the game are doing, instead of just trying to make a good game.

I see that "players burn through content it took the devs months to make in a matter of hours" point a lot. This is a complete non-argument. Apparently you people don't know this, but that's how nearly all entertainment media works. Movies, games, books. They all take years to produce for their audience to consume in a matter of hours or days. This isn't some special unique issue warframe has, it's not an issue at all, its just the nature of making stuff like this. Nobody wants to go see a movie or play a game that takes even half as long to finish as it took to make.

[---Merchant---]

3 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

If we had less rng but slower gameplay to the point of it taking just as long ether way....

Then it takes just as long ether way... The time it takes is the issue.

It's not respecting players' time.

We have lives, and other games we want to play, which is why we optimize grinds like this.

I think they're way too focused on what the group of players that have already completed everything in the game are doing, instead of just trying to make a good game.

I see that "players burn through content it took the devs months to make in a matter of hours" point a lot. This is a complete non-argument. Apparently you people don't know this, but that's how nearly all entertainment media works. Movies, games, books. They all take years to produce for their audience to consume in a matter of hours or days. This isn't some special unique issue warframe has, it's not an issue at all, its just the nature of making stuff like this. Nobody wants to go see a movie or play a game that takes even half as long to finish as it took to make.

People in this forum be like:
"I would rather be 1000hours in hell than to spend 100hours in heaven because more time spend=more better"

What about making game that people will WANT to revisit, like when someone plays dark souls for 500th time.
Instead of making each dark souls boss fight 6months long and time gate each futher boss behind 2months of daily log-ins...

Even if you somehow enjoy getting 80years old grandma tier voidsling as replacement for 2to3 times faster void dash it is still not any good because of blackscreens.
I never had as many blackscreens and position resets as i do after we got voidsling. Anywhere where it could be tolerable it will blackscreen you, maybe except the free roam maps. 
No idea how is longer sling any benefit over instant teleport where 99% of the map does not allow you to be there and just gives you tiny loading screen if you do with blacked out screen+ places you at pretty random spot that might blackscreen you instantly again (and this happens a lot more than i'd like) I've been stuck in blackscreen loops for minutes, /unstuck does not save you, going out or in frame does not save you, bullet jump, void sling nothing saves you from black loop. It should be the enemy in the next miniexpansion "Mister Black Loop" Many of blackscreens can be avoided by simply getting out of them quickly, you know... teleport level quickly. Because if you reach nonblackscreen area fast enough then the blackscreen will terminate itself and allow you to go on, something lost by voidsling which takes too long to do it.

It is also not more accurate but much less accurate, for we are not stationary while casting it, what is more accurate pixelperfect hitscan weapon or one with 10m/s bullet drop and shake to random side? Does not take genius to see that angling imaginary point around the screen is much less accurate and slower than just clicking "go fast" button.

Muh more accurate

People of this thread riddle me this: What is benefit of this change 
Your answer can not include following: Artistic vision, less playtime as operator by removing the only thing that was good about operator.
I admit that more time spend with family instead of playing might be good thing, but lets think of some actual benefit for gameplay.

I see just one and it might be exploit that is gonna get fixed anyway(maybe it was fixed already, i did not read patchnotes): locking with magus lockdown from distance.
I admit that is kinda cool for single gamemode in the game where you need to stop bomb carry before it blows up your objective.
But can not think of anything else.

[Educated_Beast]

5 hours ago, Corvid said:

So what?

 

It is feedback just like your opinion is feedback.  I could point out the obvious and just say "so what" to your opinion as well.  

The movement system is what makes this game great.  The faster, the better.  It's what keeps players coming back after they try to play some slow boring FPS game.  

DE should embrace what makes them unique and give us more of it.  I like to play fast characters even on defence missions.  When I do play a slow frame, I like to supplement with operator movement.  

Dash was perfect and the operator changes should be reverted.  None of the changes are worth what we lost.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 hours ago, Corvid said:

RNG became more extreme as a direct consequence of players being able to trivialise and speedrun through missions

This thread isnt about trivializing content using the operator. Operators never could do that even with dash. …so what are you talking about 👀 

Frames and AOE weapons and abilities trivialize content. But hey let’s Nerf Operator Dash; yeah that’ll fix it. Lol 

Come on mate, you’re not new here. 

[sapphicReprobate]

9 hours ago, Corvid said:

So what?

The irony is that you've got the cause and effect mixed up (or at the very least you've failed to recognise the vicious cycle). RNG became more extreme as a direct consequence of players being able to trivialise and speedrun through missions. It's the only way to stop us from burning through months of dev work in a matter of hours.

You guys are on some serious copium over the criticism huh? "burning through dev work" like this change did literally anything to move the needle on meta options, you never understood void dash if you think that's what this change is doing.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

They made void sling faster....but also shorter....that's messed up lol.

When it was slow, I feel like you went further on full sling.....

[(PSN)dday3six]

On 2022-05-09 at 2:01 PM, vanaukas said:

 

 

Oh no! The cooldowns! Oh no! (using Dissic scaffold since it's the "meta" for breaking crates)

(edit: I forgot to dash! I'll do another quick one right now)

Here, testing dash:

 

I called the asking for video bait because it was. You posted two videos of you not understanding that you don’t need to let one animation finish before inputing another.