Abuse of the "Shield gate" mechanics

[(PSN)max141064]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

Just because DE hasn't fixed something after several years doesn't mean it's not a bug. Mastery test 24 had a bug for around 4-5 years before they finally fixed it.  Often it's because they don't know what's causing it and/or it's very low priority.  Players "abusing" shield gating with a Decaying key?  Super low priority I imagine.

Here's your answer...

 

22 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

DE is perfectly aware of it and never tried to fix it. DE is "Sciente et tacente", a latin expression that was used when the authority was aware of something and did nothing to prevent it, letting things be. In French, we would say 'Lassez faire" : let them do.

That's DE actual position : they did not say it's a bad thing, they did not say it's a good thing and, at the same time, they did nothing to fix it, they just let players use it. And, please, do not say they are too busy with other things, because when something is a real problem, they fix it in less than 24 hours. If they wanted, Shield Gating + Daceying Key would not be possible anymore.

And even Rebecca made a little joke on Twitter :

https://twitter.com/rebbford/status/1434923441442918405?s=20&t=DBHc9kXBepW29ewyx5Pmyw

 

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

5 hours ago, rhoenix said:

Yes, I'm aware of KnightmareFrame's videos.  As I said earlier:

I ask this because I have tested it, after seeing that video, in fact.  With 3 total 1 hour Survival missions, running solo, on the Steel Path.  And after having done so, my conclusion was that it was a neat trick, but not an exploit.  It was also not the playstyle I enjoyed.

So, to reiterate - what testing did you perform, and what were your conclusions?

oh sorry i somehow totally misinterpreted what you had written, just ignore my initial reply, haha

[ReddyDisco]

This again..DE knows this exists and have let it be, a minuscule number of players use it and it requires actively moving and ability use. If the frame usage numbers are any indication, a large majority of players wouldn't like to use more effort than necessary. It might get fixed someday but it's low priority for now.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

I could care less about it, i haven't used it once on purpose outside of doing the night wave act where i use all 4 keys to open the vault.

But:

As usual, some of the community love to push for this, and even going so far saying enemy damage is balanced in certain areas, or not an issue "because they can't die" and or certain Warframes don't need any survivability changes, because JuSt UsE tHe ShIeLdGaTe DrAgOn KeY mEtA. 

Apparently it's working as intended ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 17 heures, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

The key that is supposed to be detrimental is actually beneficial on most frames. How does that not seem unintentional?

That's very simple. First, the Key is supposed to open a Vault : this is their only goal. Although the Dragon keys have penalties, from the very beginning, the Devs gave the players the possibility to avoid this penalties in very simple ways :

1) Decaying key : can be equipped by frames that have no shields : penalty 0.

2)Bleeding key : no penalty for frames like Nezha, Rhino, Yareli, that have abilities that create a pool of protention points. Also, frames that can fastly regenerate shields can just ignore the Bleeding key. Penalty 0.

3) Hobbled Key : affects only walking speed, but not maneuvers/parkour speed. Can easily be ignored by Volt, Wisp, Nezha. Penalty 0.

4) Extinguished Key : penalty easily avoided by frames with damage multipliers : Rhino, Mirage, Banshee. Penalty 0.

But most important of all : all these keys do not affect the Operator.

The penalties attached te each different key were designed, from the beginning, by the Devs, to be possibly avoided, so they are not meant to be detrimental at all. They are meant to make players use their brains to avoid/negate the penalty.

And it's very easy to see : all Corrupted Mods, obtained through Dragn keys, have also penalties, but these penalties are very often benefical. Take the exemple of Narrow Minded, the penalty turns to be very benefical for Nova's Null Star, making her keep the null stars near har and maintain the Damage reduction they give. And this was intended by the Devs from the very begining : a penalty that can be avoided or turned into benefical for some frames. It's the same thing. If the Dragon key penalty turned benefical for some frames are unintentional, so the Corrupted Mods penalty turned into benefical for some frames are unintentional too and must be fixed. But this is just no sense. If you use Corrupted Mods, you know very well that penalties can be turned on your advantage without problems and without being an "exploit".

 

Il y a 17 heures, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

People thought the same thing about Chroma's old Vex Armor and Gladiator mods on Helios: Those bugs existed for years, people took advantage of them, thought they were intentional, and DE then finally fixed them. Just so you know, there's been an exploit to easily get tons of damage on hitscan weapons using Chroma's Elemental Ward and Xaku's Xata's Whisper; it has existed since Heart of Deimos, and some forms of it before then. These examples prove that DE is slow about bug fixing, and that you can't assume their feelings about it by lack of action. 

The Decaying Dragon Key is going to get fixed eventually: It might take months or years, but it's quite clearly a product of universal changes having unintended side effects on existing content.

Yes, I agree with you. But did anybody get banned for using Chroma old Vex Armor and Gladiator Mods on Helios ??? No. It's another exemple : DE knew it, and did nothing to fix it for a long time, letting players use it. Nova Speed, that accelerate Mobs were an unintended feature, but they choose not to fix, but to integrate it in the game. Nobody knows what DE is going to do, but as soon as they keep the silence, nobody can say it's a bad thing, or that players can be banned for that.

DE can eventually change (there is nothing to fix here, but to change, as everything is working as intended) the Decaying key, or they can let players use it on their will.

And I'm not assuming their feelings, it's exactly the contrary : DE said nothing. We don't know nothing about their feelings on this. The only thing we know, is that they are aware of it (sciente) and they say nothing (tacente), letting players use it without problems.

[Danielw8]

Lets be clear here shield gate mechanic is garbage, and one good example its this thing about decaying dragon key.

The same guys who survive hours using shield gate, die in the first 10 seconds doing profit taker or playing void cascade

Warframe need more lategame mechanics and different options. Tanky warframes should tank a few bullets against high lvl enemies

[Numerikuu]

Eh, I say let it be tbh. It's incredibly gimmicky and very unnecessary given there's multiple ways to defend yourself/recover shields, especially after the Focus rework.
Unlike the current AoE meta, shield gating isn't destroying people's GPU's, frying their eyes out of their sockets, or ruining their fun.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

The penalties attached te each different key were designed, from the beginning, by the Devs, to be possibly avoided, so they are not meant to be detrimental at all. They are meant to make players use their brains to avoid/negate the penalty.

You're ignoring the fact that most of the means used to negate the Dragon Keys' drawbacks were added after the keys themselves. Allow me to illustrate what the game's sandbox was like back then:

No frames without shields existed so Decaying always reduced your defences.

The only frame that could generate an ablative shield via powers was Rhino, and he didn't have his scaling window so it was a fixed amount per cast (Energy was also significantly more restricted), so Bleeding made you vulnerable.

Parkour was significantly more limited (it consumed Stamina, and the Bullet Jump didn't exist) so Hobbled actually crippled your mobility.

Finally, there were no powers that unconditionally amplified the player's damage (instead of Roar, Rhino had Radial Blast, which later had its functionality merged into Stomp) so Extinguished kept your killing potential muzzled.

 

While there's a case to be made that DE's lack of adjustment of the keys to account for our increase in power indicates a change in how they view the keys today, you cannot argue that their current role is anything close to the original intent. They were specifically designed to be debuffs that you had to endure in order to reap the rewards of the Derelict Vaults. In fact, there was even a lore justification for why we originally couldn't equip more than one at a time. The toll they took on our Warframes' systems was so severe that trying to equip a second would render the frame nonfunctional.

[FiveN9ne]

Instead of complaining about it, provide a good "solution". Removing shield gating or the decaying dragon key interaction would accomplish nothing except make players play tanky or invis frames only, or start dying all the time.

Shields are too soft. Armor DR doesn't work on them, and even if it did, most caster frames have barely any armor. Ability DR works but still not enough. Increase shield gate invulnerability and shield recharge rate/delay with the amount of shields maybe? If having more shields was beneficial maybe people would utilize them. As it stands now they're completely useless and get one shot if you have 75 or 500. 

Finally, if you really want to "abuse" shield gate, simply subsume Parasitic Armor on any frame. It will remove all shields, which means that while Parasitic Armor is in effect, any ability that you cast, for any cost, will give you shield gate. Since that will be your new "max" shield value.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

You're ignoring the fact that most of the means used to negate the Dragon Keys' drawbacks were added after the keys themselves. Allow me to illustrate what the game's sandbox was like back then:

Dragon keys were introduced on update 10.3. At that time, Volt, Rhino, Mag, were already in the game, and they all have means to ignore the penalties. Oberon and Valkyr were added a little after.

Very important : four keys were introduced, so, if you were in a sqad, each player could get one different key. And the whole sqaud would work in a way to ignore the Dragon key 's penalties. Squad formation was there from the very beginning, and it was the best way to ignore/negate the Dragon key's effects.

And the fact some frames were added after changes nothing. The Devs know what they are adding to the game and a few month ater the arrival of a new frame they make the balance nedded, and they did nothing since then.

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

No frames without shields existed so Decaying always reduced your defences.

No. Mag could easily ignore it (specially with her old ability set) and she was there when Dragon keys arrived. Rhino was there and he could ignore the efects of Dacaying Dragon key too. So, no, the Devs perfectly knew that some frames could ignore the penalties when they introduced the Dragon keys in the game.

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

The only frame that could generate an ablative shield via powers was Rhino, and he didn't have his scaling window so it was a fixed amount per cast (Energy was also significantly more restricted), so Bleeding made you vulnerable.

No, Rhino wasn't the only. He was the mostly used, but old Mag's second ability, Shiled Polarize, could deal with the Decaying key much better than Rhino. And Rhino was perfectly able to avoid Decaying Dragon Key's penalty. If the Bleeding key was a problem for him, it wasn't a problem for Mag.

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

Parkour was significantly more limited (it consumed Stamina, and the Bullet Jump didn't exist) so Hobbled actually crippled your mobility.

I agree, but rolling was there at the time. And also Volt (and this worked for the whole squad). And, I just rememberd this : people used the Dual Zoren for mobility at that time (the Zoren copter method) and Hobbled key didn't affect this.

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

Finally, there were no powers that unconditionally amplified the player's damage (instead of Roar, Rhino had Radial Blast, which later had its functionality merged into Stomp) so Extinguished kept your killing potential muzzled.

I agree, but at that time enemies were much easier than now. A couple of Mods on your weapon and the problem was resolved. No damage multiplication ability was necessary at that time, that's why they did not exist when the Dragon keys arrived in the game.

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

While there's a case to be made that DE's lack of adjustment of the keys to account for our increase in power indicates a change in how they view the keys today, you cannot argue that their current role is anything close to the original intent. They were specifically designed to be debuffs that you had to endure in order to reap the rewards of the Derelict Vaults.

I don't agree at all. There were always means to avoid the penalties, as shown before.

And Corrupted mods were added at the same time as the keys and their penalties were always used as benefits for some frames. Some penalties are not neccessary made to be endured, but they can be turned on your advantage. Again, if the Dragon key penalty was made to be endured, the Corrupted Mods penaltes were also made to be endured. But, again, this is no sense.

And I could add that Oberon arrival in the game, just a couple of months after the Dragon Keys made things even more simple for the Bleeding key.

Il y a 3 heures, Corvid a dit :

In fact, there was even a lore justification for why we originally couldn't equip more than one at a time. The toll they took on our Warframes' systems was so severe that trying to equip a second would render the frame nonfunctional.

Thanks for the information : this shows very easily that the Devs changed the Dragon keys mechanics when they wanted to. They changed this, but not the interaction with Shield gate. This is very significant !

Here is the Hotfix note :

Citation

Hotfix 23.10.3 (2018-10-15)

The Gear Spiral now restricts duplicate Gear items (Apothics, Stims), with the exception of Dragon Keys! The bug turned feature of ability to equip all Dragon Keys shall live to hobble another day!

Do you see it ? It started as a bug, but it was then introduced into the game. And this was something really working as non intended, while there is nothing non intended on the way shield gating and Decaying Dragon key are working. And nobody got banned, the Devs never said it was a bad thing, on the contrary : they accepted it (in a very funny way) !

[B.P.Emma]

16 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't depend on Gloom either, or any subsumed ability, for that matter.  Breach Surge is nice, but I don't have it injected on every Banshee build, and even when I do it frequently goes unused.

As for QT, I'm not specifically recommending it now for Banshee.  But....

...I don't think you can have it both ways.  If it's not a skillbased game (for you) and it's not a modding game, what exactly is it?   It's definitely not turn-based, I know that!  :P

Well, I wasn't being  serious about that, although I do occasionally die in 2, 5, or 10 minutes.  Practically speaking, when I'm actually concentrating, it's enough for 45 minutes for me without any deaths.  It's extremely tense at that point and I don't play anything longer than that, although I suspect more skilled players could go far longer.   Because they did before shield gating existed or the existence of Rolling Guard or before Banshee got her extra 60 armor or whatever it was.

And I wasn't talking about repeatedly dying there.  One death, almost always when I get careless.  Is there a harsh death penalty in this game?  lol, hell no.

If you read my entire reply to you, you already know I basically agree.   Although I'd say it would make a lot of sense for DE to address the symptom at the same time as the underlying issues. 

your 2nd point confuses me sorry (i also dont know how to seperate quotes im newish to forums in general). i dont recall saying it wasnt a “modding game”, whatever you mean by that. but as someone who plays skill based games as well as non skill based games, theres a pretty obvious and determinable design philosophy difference. the same applies to borderlands in that movement helps (to a much lesser degree than warframe), but equally being squishy in that game is almost impossible as the combat (similarly to warframe) is fundamentally designed around levels as the threat and not skill. high level enemies dont really hit you with any more or less precision than lower enemies, but they do hit harder, and the way their accuracy works is not comparable to doom, or even halo, which both share a similar tracking/projectile philosophy

im not sure if that was meant to be a dig, but no im not great at games if thats what youre implying. i have beaten doom on max difficulty pistol only and all halos on legendary (with skulls i didnt find anti fun), but im also familiar with how those work and how to “effectively play” them i guess is a way to put it. conversely ive never beaten any borderlands besides 3 (which is a laughably easy game) without dying, or finished doom eternal (it hard crashes my pc whenever i reinstall it now so i couldnt even if i wanted to, but i digress). im not sure what youre doing that im not in terms of mobility to survive for so long, but i will say your experience is different to mine and many others, and if it is a skill thing then… 🤷‍♀️… but considering that i dont find death glares fun, i do stick to frames i enjoy as i said. octavia, rarely protea or wisp

and no i didnt, sorry i only read the part relating to me. but its good we agree on that id be fine with them doing both at the same time. not that it affects me either way as i dont use shield gates and likely wont ever touch sp in any serious capacity as de probably wont revamp it… and also separates it from the relevant content like fissures, sorties like they do all their content islands but i digress again 😊

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That's very simple. First, the Key is supposed to open a Vault : this is their only goal. Although the Dragon keys have penalties, from the very beginning, the Devs gave the players the possibility to avoid this penalties in very simple ways :

1) Decaying key : can be equipped by frames that have no shields : penalty 0.

2)Bleeding key : no penalty for frames like Nezha, Rhino, Yareli, that have abilities that create a pool of protention points. Also, frames that can fastly regenerate shields can just ignore the Bleeding key. Penalty 0.

3) Hobbled Key : affects only walking speed, but not maneuvers/parkour speed. Can easily be ignored by Volt, Wisp, Nezha. Penalty 0.

4) Extinguished Key : penalty easily avoided by frames with damage multipliers : Rhino, Mirage, Banshee. Penalty 0.

But most important of all : all these keys do not affect the Operator.

So...

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

You're ignoring the fact that most of the means used to negate the Dragon Keys' drawbacks were added after the keys themselves. Allow me to illustrate what the game's sandbox was like back then:

This. 

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

The penalties attached te each different key were designed, from the beginning, by the Devs, to be possibly avoided, so they are not meant to be detrimental at all. They are meant to make players use their brains to avoid/negate the penalty.

Negating the penalty is not the same as benefitting from the penalty. Just because you can avoid the detrimental effect, doesn't mean that the detrimental effect is no longer detrimental: For the majority of builds, having less health/damage/speed is a bad thing, and the same applied to having fewer shields pre-shield gating. However, because of the way shield gating works- a change that happened long after keys were introduced- the Decaying Dragon Key is actually beneficial for the majority of builds. None of the other keys are designed to be strictly beneficial: They are, at most, meaningless if you have nullified their effect. The only other example of a key being beneficial is with the Bleeding key helping Trinity's 4th augment, which is an incredibly niche build only possible because of an augment made long after keys were designed. If DE wanted us to use the keys to our benefit, they would have added positive modifiers to the keys in addition to the negative ones, mirroring the corrupted mods.

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And it's very easy to see : all Corrupted Mods, obtained through Dragn keys, have also penalties, but these penalties are very often benefical. Take the exemple of Narrow Minded, the penalty turns to be very benefical for Nova's Null Star, making her keep the null stars near har and maintain the Damage reduction they give. And this was intended by the Devs from the very begining : a penalty that can be avoided or turned into benefical for some frames. It's the same thing. If the Dragon key penalty turned benefical for some frames are unintentional, so the Corrupted Mods penalty turned into benefical for some frames are unintentional too and must be fixed. But this is just no sense. If you use Corrupted Mods, you know very well that penalties can be turned on your advantage without problems and without being an "exploit".

Corrupted mods are an entirely different discussion: These are mods that the player chooses to get the perks of at the expense of build space; they are supposed to interact with player builds in complex ways because the player has given up a piece of their build to put them there. If we had a mod that reduced max shield capacity by 75%, I wouldn't call it an exploit/unintended interaction. I'd still say that the shield gating system is poorly designed and there should be more benefit to building for shields, but the shield gating playstyle would be an intended playstyle at that point, because an official piece of build-crafting was made for that purpose with current shield gating in mind.

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, I agree with you. But did anybody get banned for using Chroma old Vex Armor and Gladiator Mods on Helios ??? No. It's another exemple : DE knew it, and did nothing to fix it for a long time, letting players use it. Nova Speed, that accelerate Mobs were an unintended feature, but they choose not to fix, but to integrate it in the game. Nobody knows what DE is going to do, but as soon as they keep the silence, nobody can say it's a bad thing, or that players can be banned for that.

I never said people should be banned for using the Decaying key. I don't care what bugs and unintended interactions people use, so long as it doesn't affect me. If the bug was turned into a feature, I wouldn't mind at all. I only have a problem with people saying the Decaying key is intended to work the way it does, because that's going to lead to a lot of confusion when DE finally does fix it.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb FiveN9ne:

Instead of complaining about it, provide a good "solution". Removing shield gating or the decaying dragon key interaction would accomplish nothing except make players play tanky or invis frames only, or start dying all the time.

Shields are too soft. Armor DR doesn't work on them, and even if it did, most caster frames have barely any armor. Ability DR works but still not enough. Increase shield gate invulnerability and shield recharge rate/delay with the amount of shields maybe? If having more shields was beneficial maybe people would utilize them. As it stands now they're completely useless and get one shot if you have 75 or 500. 

Finally, if you really want to "abuse" shield gate, simply subsume Parasitic Armor on any frame. It will remove all shields, which means that while Parasitic Armor is in effect, any ability that you cast, for any cost, will give you shield gate. Since that will be your new "max" shield value.

exactly like that. it's just nagging. but they don't suggest a solution! because they have no idea how the world works!

there is umbra set. there are arcanes and skills to restore warframe health. how hard is it to comprehend? Actually, even a very small child could understand that!
because: how effectively can you restore shield?

and there are even trolls on youtube playing gyre with 300 health and spamming skills every second. overshield is so imba! and the beginners seem to believe it...... and then these weird little boys come along and claim it's immortal!

ONLY 1 DOT FROM INFESTED AND WARFRAME IS IN THE DUST!
or cat is constantly being shot down... rez? lol... no rezzing without vazarin!
or there is lag and then warframe is INSTANT dead...
and and and....

I can only laugh!

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

So...

The conclusion is very simple : the Dragon keys were never supposed to necessarily weaken players, as there were always means to avoid the penalty.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

This. 

This... means nothing. Already answered with many exemples. Mag, Volt, Rhino, were already there. And Oberon and Valkyr were under developpement when Dragon keys arrived. And much more important : if shield gate was not there when the Dragon keys arrived, the Dragon keys were there when the shield gate mechanic was introduced and the Devs were perfectly aware of the way they worked. The Dragon Keys were there when Inaros and Nidus arrived in the game, and the Devs knew perfectly that these two frames weren't affected at all by the Decaying Dragon key.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

Negating the penalty is not the same as benefitting from the penalty. Just because you can avoid the detrimental effect, doesn't mean that the detrimental effect is no longer detrimental: For the majority of builds, having less health/damage/speed is a bad thing, and the same applied to having fewer shields pre-shield gating. However, because of the way shield gating works- a change that happened long after keys were introduced- the Decaying Dragon Key is actually beneficial for the majority of builds. None of the other keys are designed to be strictly beneficial: They are, at most, meaningless if you have nullified their effect. The only other example of a key being beneficial is with the Bleeding key helping Trinity's 4th augment, which is an incredibly niche build only possible because of an augment made long after keys were designed. If DE wanted us to use the keys to our benefit, they would have added positive modifiers to the keys in addition to the negative ones, mirroring the corrupted mods.

I agree it's not the same, but this means nothing. If you can negate the penalty, this means the  Dragon key is not neccessary negative and that it's not made to weaken the player. The point here was that some people was saying that the keys were made to weaken the frame. To prove this is not true, it enough to show that their penalties can be avoided.

The Dragon keys were fixed in many different ways since then, and they never wanted to change it. So, saying that things didn't worked like that when the keys arrived means nothing. The fact is that it works this way now. : and you can benefit from penalties, as I've shown with Corrupted Mods (and this from the very introduction of Dragon Keys).

DE wants the Decaying key to reduce your shields. DE wants the Shield gate to protect your frame for a short period of time. So, yes, they actually want the Dragon key method to work, at least up to this day (this may change is the future). This is called an indirect intention (voluntarium in causa).

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

Corrupted mods are an entirely different discussion:

Not at all. Corrupted Mods are intrinsically related to the Dragon keys and work the same way :

Dragon key : give you the possibility to open a vault, but has a stat penalty.

Corrupted Mod : gives you the possibility to highly increase one stat, but has a stat penalty.

If we can't benefit from Dragon key penalty, we cannot benefit from the Corrupted Mod penalty either, but this is just no sense. As you have no answer to this and as this is the clearest proof that a penalty can be benefical for some frames, you just choose to ignore it, but the truth is that Corrupted Mods are intrinsically related to this discussion.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

they are supposed to interact with player builds in complex ways because the player has given up a piece of their build to put them there.

Just the same for Dragon keys, that are supposed to interact with player builds in very complex ways.

And the part of the build used to equip the mod means nothing : as it gives a high stat increase. It's just the way every Mod works.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

If we had a mod that reduced max shield capacity by 75%, I wouldn't call it an exploit/unintended interaction.

If the Devs didn't want Shield gate to work the way it works, one could call it's interaction with Shield gating an exmploit, but, fortunatly, they want shield gate to work as it works now. And they also want the Dragon keys to work as they work now. If they change their minds, they will change the wey these two things work. Using two INTENDED features, DO NOT create an unintended exploit. Simple like this.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

but the shield gating playstyle would be an intended playstyle at that point, because an official piece of build-crafting was made for that purpose with current shield gating in mind.

Shild gating was put in the game by the same Devs that put the Dragon keys in the game. They were aware of it. And again : these two are working perfectly as intended.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

I never said people should be banned for using the Decaying key.

Yes, I know, it wasn't you. I was thinking about another person. Sorry.

il y a une heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

I only have a problem with people saying the Decaying key is intended to work the way it does, because that's going to lead to a lot of confusion when DE finally does fix it.

Thee problem is that the dragon key is working as intended and the shield gating is working as intended. Nobody can say that hese two are woring in a non intended way. And the Devs knew perfectly how Dragon keys worked when they made the shield gating change. They did not ignore it at the time.

The interaction of these two is intended in an indirect way (when you want the means, you also want the goal). But even though one can say it's intended in an indirect way, nobody can say it's intended in a direct way : that's why I stated that nobody can say it's a good thing, nobody can say it's a bad thing. Everybody can ask it to be removed from the game. Everybody can ask it to be keep in the game. But the only thing we really know is that the Devs are aware of it, and they say (or do) nothing, letting players use it as they want.  Also, it's absolutely impossible to say that this is non intended, as this is just an interaction between two perfectly intended mechanics.

Nobody knows what will happen in the future : they can remove it from the game (not fix it, as there is nothing to fix here), or to keep it in the game. Even an intended feature can be removed from the game. This creates no confusion at all. When they decided to keep the Speed Nova in the game, this created no confusion at all, but if they had removed it from the game, no confusion would have been created either.

And they changed Vazarin in order to let player shield gate even more easily.

[Yamazuki]

Key+Shield-gate 'immortality' complaints won't ever make sense.

How is being immortal through other means, some that require significantly less input by the player, any different? Other methods don't even have toxin as a counter in the event of human error.

For general play, you know, the way the overwhelming majority of people play... Key+Shield-gate abuse isn't even an efficient way to stay alive. It's simply an alternative, and it's unpopular for a reason.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

the Dragon keys were never supposed to necessarily weaken players, as there were always means to avoid the penalty.

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

The point here was that some people was saying that the keys were made to weaken the frame. To prove this is not true, it enough to show that their penalties can be avoided.

It seems like you don't believe that the dragon keys were made to be detrimental at all, so I have to wonder why you think they have the stat penalty in the first place. Did DE just toss it in for the lolz? If keys were meant to be like corrupted mods, why didn't they offer any benefit like the corrupted mods do? Here's what they could have done:

Bleeding key: +Shield Capacity, -Health

Decaying key: +Health, -Shield Capacity

Extinguished key: +Speed, -Damage

Hobbled key: +Damage, -Speed

But they didn't do this, because the keys aren't supposed to be used as build options: They're supposed to be handicaps; stat taxes you have to pay in order to open vaults or do certain riven challenges. Dragon keys exist in order to make content more difficult and interesting, just like the modifiers in Disruption and Sorties. If you can't understand that, I genuinely don't know what to tell you.

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Not at all. Corrupted Mods are intrinsically related to the Dragon keys and work the same way :

Dragon key : give you the possibility to open a vault, but has a stat penalty.

Corrupted Mod : gives you the possibility to highly increase one stat, but has a stat penalty.

Corrupted mods are build options. You can choose to throw on a corrupted mod to change your build, or you can choose not to. No content in the game requires you to have a corrupted mod in order to do it. On the other hand, Dragon keys are required for certain content.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

the Dragon keys were never supposed to necessarily weaken players, as there were always means to avoid the penalty.

Non-Sequiter. Inaros was introduced well after Dragon Keys, so no avoiding the shield penalty when Dragon keys where introduced. Damage debuff can't be avoided either, unless you never use weapons.

Dragon keys where clearly intended to weaken the player, not be advantageous. There's a difference between a penalty not mattering (e.g. Frames with a second health bar ability and Bleeding Key) and actually being an advantage.

[Maryph]

I'm actually amazed at how many players wants this removed. It doesn't affect them, doesn't kill their fav playstyle  nor preventing them from shooting ennemies. AoE is way more problematic and still receives less complains than Shield Gating.
It just allows players who likes to play glass canons to actually play the game against HL ennemies without being OS.
I don't get it at all wtf.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom:

Non-Sequiter. Inaros was introduced well after Dragon Keys, so no avoiding the shield penalty when Dragon keys where introduced. Damage debuff can't be avoided either, unless you never use weapons.

Dragon keys where clearly intended to weaken the player, not be advantageous. There's a difference between a penalty not mattering (e.g. Frames with a second health bar ability and Bleeding Key) and actually being an advantage.

there are no real benefits either. That's why I don't understand all the trolling at all!
and I don't care either. only here it is more about new players and they are slaughtered like mosquitoes.

Only very weak warframes benefit from the way of playing (if at all). and so it should even be unplayable! who wins here?!?!?!

[Venus-Venera]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Maryph:

I'm actually amazed at how many players wants this removed. It doesn't affect them, doesn't kill their fav playstyle  nor preventing them from shooting ennemies. AoE is way more problematic and still receives less complains than Shield Gating.
It just allows players who likes to play glass canons to actually play the game against HL ennemies without being OS.
I don't get it at all wtf.

aoe is no problem at all. and if you play with aoe, you must have been logged into the game for half a year.

omg! ....

and glass cannon has never worked here. where do you want to use that? that's a joke for april 1st

[EMPTY-d]

Very seriously speaking, I'm surprised that there is a significant amount of players who think warframe is too easy, too powerful, need to be nerfed or so on.

Have any of you tried to play endless gaming ( for example, survival ) for more than an hour? Shielding gate will be the only thing to keep you alive then. Any enemy, anything can kill you instantly.

And now I see requests to remove it? Will enjoy your time in pieces, I hope.

 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

9 minutes ago, EMPTY-d said:

Very seriously speaking, I'm surprised that there is a significant amount of players who think warframe is too easy, too powerful, need to be nerfed or so on.

Have any of you tried to play endless gaming ( for example, survival ) for more than an hour? Shielding gate will be the only thing to keep you alive then. Any enemy, anything can kill you instantly.

People play what the game encourages them to play, and Warframe generally doesn't encourage long endurance runs where you'd see that kind of difficulty, with Arbitrations being the main exception. People who want difficulty want a challenge to face them so they can overcome it, and going out of your way to seek that challenge- which is what you're doing by sitting in one mission for a long time- doesn't feel rewarding or meaningful.

As for the content Warframe encourages you to play, it can all be trivialized by unbalanced items. If you want difficulty in Warframe, you have to sit around for ages or kneecap yourself so that you can pretend the game has any difficulty.

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, B.P.Emma said:

i dont recall saying it wasnt a “modding game".

It was in reference to you saying relying on a mod--Quick Thinking specifically--wasn't "particularly fun".  

 

4 hours ago, B.P.Emma said:

im not sure if that was meant to be a dig, but no im not great at games if thats what youre implying

No, I definitely was not implying that.   That would be pretty ironic coming from me.  :P

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 1 heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

It seems like you don't believe that the dragon keys were made to be detrimental at all, so I have to wonder why you think they have the stat penalty in the first place. Did DE just toss it in for the lolz? If keys were meant to be like corrupted mods, why didn't they offer any benefit like the corrupted mods do? Here's what they could have done:

The Dragons keys were made to open orokin vaults. And I can perfectly conceive that the y can be detrimental, but I can also conceive that can be benefical (and they actually are). It's you that can't conceive that Dragon key's penalties can be benefical. But they work the same way Corrupted Mods' penalties work.

Il y a 1 heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

But they didn't do this, because the keys aren't supposed to be used as build options

Of course they are. They affect stats, so they can be used as build oprtions. Can you quote a developper note saying that these keys aren't meant to be used as a build option ? I doubt, because they never said this. On the other hand, thay know people use them as build options and they let them do. They were aware of the way these keys worked when they changed shield gating, and they did not changed the key's penalties.

 

Il y a 1 heure, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

Corrupted mods are build options

Just as Dragon keys. Both give you a benefit, but also have a penalty.

 

Il y a 2 heures, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

You can choose to throw on a corrupted mod to change your build, or you can choose not to

You can choose to equip a Dragon key and you can choose not to. Just the same.

Il y a 2 heures, (XBOX)Ampathetiic a dit :

On the other hand, Dragon keys are required for certain content.

Wich content ? Corrupted mods ? They are tradable. Opening a vault is not a game content.

Corrupted Mods and Dragon keys are not neccessary for game content, but both can be used for builds.

[EMPTY-d]

But here lies a useful way to help surviving long-time missions, it is there, won't do any harm if stays there.

Warframe may not be a game that encourages ten hour long play, but I see no reason to remove a useful technique for it.