Abuse of the "Shield gate" mechanics

[(PSN)grunge788]

I used shield gateing or overshields and felt its about worthless cause 1 bullet and its gone but i also feel 98% of warframes are unusable due to getting 1 shot everywhere   and ive 10 forma frames and umbra forma frames just for survival and i still feel 98% of warframes are unusable due to dieing everywhere

[AegidiusF]

A bit of WISDOM from our beloved Devs :

On the Devstrem 162, yesterday, thay had a conversation about a bug : whether to fix it or to keep it (and how). And this was very instructive.

Rebecca introduced the subject :

There is a bug that allows you to change your operator/drifter skin tone to any of the color pallets you have. […] And I bring this to you on the Devstream to have just a raw honest conversation about how we’re going to decide what to do about this bug. […] We don’t know what we’re going to do because it’s not accurate to the lore. (Rebecca)

Pablo made a joke :

I think that’s cheating to be honest – [laughs]. (Pablo)

And Steve, when asked by Rebecca, said :

I’m kind of in support of it, but I’m sure there are most colors that I would not want to see. (Steve)

Rebecca added :

The honest truth is that we don’t know what we’re going to do, … (Rebecca)

And then Pablo (Steve agreed with him) gave this very precious statement of wisdom :

A big pillar of Warframe is let players do what they will (Pablo) Yeah, that’s right. (Steve). But we also don’t want it to be too crazy.(Pablo)

 

And all this conversation was about a BUG. Shield gating + Dragon key lethod is NOT EVEN a BUG. All they said yesterday can apply much better for Dragon Key method : they don't know what to do, some players want it to be in the game, others don't. But the big pillar is : 🌺 LET PLAYERS DO WHAT THEY WILL 🌺. And that's what the Devs are doing now: they are letting players use the Dragon key method if they want.

 

Check below, it starts about 1h06'30''.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

12 hours ago, (PSN)grunge788 said:

I used shield gateing or overshields and felt its about worthless cause 1 bullet and its gone but i also feel 98% of warframes are unusable due to getting 1 shot everywhere   and ive 10 forma frames and umbra forma frames just for survival and i still feel 98% of warframes are unusable due to dieing everywhere

It's only after an hour or so in SP that enemies start getting tough. Well actually that's incorrect because I was using umbra grendel so probably cut that in half for someone like Nova lol.

But it's still a good reason to bring a teammate. It is still a coop game that's gives a lot of freedom to solo.

[Josh486]

It’s still a penalty if you use it improperly. It’s just a work around, I wouldn’t ask DE to nerf the bleeding dragon key because it’s good for Trinity’s champion bless augment

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

2 minutes ago, Josh486 said:

I wouldn’t ask DE to nerf the bleeding dragon key because it’s good for Trinity’s champion bless augment

Ideally, they'd make the buff scale off of base health %, rather than maximum health %: Building for more health improves your build by making it easier to get more of the buff per cast, and equipping the health penalty key would give you a penalty as it ought to do.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Their needs to be more incentives to build for shields on Warframes that don't explicitly have a gimmick related to them. 

How about an extra Shield Gate every 500 Shields?

[Karsaros]

Well heres my "hot take" on the matter, I think it should disable shields entirely in fact I would go so far as to say that shield gating has made the community worse not better, theres a reason Nidus and Inaros are my most played Warframes its because I don't like shield frames.

[Tyreaus]

6 minutes ago, Karsaros said:

Well heres my "hot take" on the matter, I think it should disable shields entirely in fact I would go so far as to say that shield gating has made the community worse not better, theres a reason Nidus and Inaros are my most played Warframes its because I don't like shield frames.

Funny, in a way, that there's been a number of requests over the years to have a mod that removes shields so elements like Rage and Arcane Avenger can better work. Especially with shield gating stalling that pretty hard.

I kind of agree with the effects shield gating has had - not that it's made the community worse, but that it's covered issues in player survivability. I can hop around in my maxed Operator with little care in the Zariman missions - it takes a while to start getting tickled by enemies there. Warframes typically have less than half the health (sometimes less than that), need not sacrifice ability mods for equitable survivability, and don't always have an emergency escape (e.g. Void mode) to do things like regen health and shields. If you focus on shield gating, however, that difference doesn't functionally exist: Warframes might be weaker but they're able to refresh the shield gate at a moment's notice.

The discrepancy in survivability is still there, it just has a bandaid to cover the issue.

[Akisohida]

1 hour ago, Karsaros said:

Well heres my "hot take" on the matter, I think it should disable shields entirely in fact I would go so far as to say that shield gating has made the community worse not better, theres a reason Nidus and Inaros are my most played Warframes its because I don't like shield frames.

So, basically: Because you don't like it; no one should be able to do it?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Their needs to be more incentives to build for shields on Warframes that don't explicitly have a gimmick related to them. 

How about an extra Shield Gate every 500 Shields?

So you can change the meta to just subsuming Condemn and spamming it? 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2022-05-26 at 5:34 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And I'll say it again : ignore a penalty proofs that that penalty wasn't intended to be neccessary weaken a frame.

Sorry there, chap. A negative base with a positive-limited scalar is still a negative base.

100% + (-x% * (0% ..y%)) <= 100%, where (-x%) is the base and (0%..y%) is the scalar of how strong that effect is.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/lptaenzo87 Here's the Dragon Key effects, where Y expresses the Stat percentage modifier and X = the scalar of how much the Key is affecting that stat, within accessible boundaries (0% to 100%)

Y is always <= 100%. There is only a weakness by design. The fact the scalar can be reduced to 0 does not make the base non-negative. Unless that scalar can be <0 (which it can't in the case of Dragon Key deficits) then a negative base is strictly designed to be a weakness.

 

And have we all already forgotten how "Decaying Key Immortal Hildryn" was patched out for the exact same reasons as wider shield-gate abuse via Decay?

 

On 2022-05-26 at 6:20 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

With all due respect, anyone who thinks using the Decaying Key is an "exploit" or a "bug" is being far too liberal with their definitions of these terms.  Using Decaying Key to buff shield-gating has been widely-used by players for 2 years.  If DE wanted players to not do this, they have had more than enough time to remove it from the game (it would be incredibly simple to add an extra debuff to the Decaying Key so that it delays or disables shield-gating).  However, DE has chosen not to remove this synergy.  At this point, buffing shield-gating with the Decaying Key is just part of the game.

On 2022-05-27 at 4:25 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

This is comparing apples and oranges (in this case, bugs and exploits), because nobody would have ever suggested that a player was abusing an exploit for simply pressing 3 with Chroma.

DE knows about the Decaying Key synergy.  It's easy to fix and they've had 2 years to fix it.  They have made the choice not to.  If it was an exploit they have had more than enough time to correct it.  Again, they have chosen not to.  When genuine exploits exist in games, developers are quick to patch them out.  The fact that 2 years have passed without this happening is solid evidence that this is not an exploit.

That is of course not to say that it couldn't be removed someday in the future, which is entirely possible.  But until that happens, it's an established part of the game.

So was Ivara being able to bullet jump while Prowling, as long as you did your inputs just right. That was there for years and slightly offset how needlessly crippled she is compared to other Stealth frames / how much of a benefit she gets compared to other crippling effects (e.g. Nyx Assimilate - actual immunity)

But that was a 'bug' and removed those years later.

 

[BDMblue]

21 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Their needs to be more incentives to build for shields on Warframes that don't explicitly have a gimmick related to them. 

How about an extra Shield Gate every 500 Shields?

I asked and posted this to DE at lest 30 times before gates came out. They frankly are uninterested in more shields being viable.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 12 heures, TheLexiConArtist a dit :

Sorry there, chap.

Don't worry, I forgive you. 😇😁

Il y a 12 heures, TheLexiConArtist a dit :

A negative base with a positive-limited scalar is still a negative base.

I disagree, it's not still a negative base, but it can negate all negative effect.

You graphic shows nothing we don't already know. Of course your base stat is reduced and that the ability bonus you can use to avoid it will be based on this reduced base, but the bonus can be much greater than the stat reduction : no Extinguished key can counter Banshee's Sonar, which has the greater damage multiplier in the game up to this day. Rhino's Iron Skin and old Mag's Shield Polarize are not affected by Decaying key, but by power strengh (and the same goes for Trinity's abilities in regard to the Bleeding key). Hobbled key can be counterd by Rush Mod with a well moded Volt's Speed.

Just to put things in order :

Someone said that Dragon keys have penalties and penalties are made to weaken the player.

I've shown that a penalty can be used to streghthen the player : Narrow Minded penalty on Nova, Blind Rage penalty on Chroma... And this was intended by the Devs (sometimes, things like this appear on the in game tips).

And I've also shown that Dragon key's penalties could be avoided from the beginning when they were introduced.

Decaying key : Mag's Shiled Polarise (old ability set), Rhino's Iron Skin.

Hobbled key : Volt's Speed, (also Zorencopter).

Bleeding key : almost all Trinity's abilities.

Extinguished key : Banshee's Sonar.

This shows that from the beginning the Devs were aware that Dragon Keys penalties could perfectly be avoided by certain frames. And nobody can say energy was a problem at the begining of Warframe, as Trinity as already there. These penalties are there to force players use their brains to forge a build and a squad to avoid them.

With these, I could make this statement : some penalties are not made to neccessarily weaken the player, as some can give them an advantage, and others can be easily avoided (an avoided penalty does not weaken the player, even though the player could be even stronger without them).

The Dragon key method is just a way players found to take advantage from a penalty, and, as shown, nobody can say this is a problem because a penalty is neccessarily made to weaken.

 

Il y a 12 heures, TheLexiConArtist a dit :

And have we all already forgotten how "Decaying Key Immortal Hildryn" was patched out for the exact same reasons as wider shield-gate abuse via Decay?

Could you give some reference ? Normally, Hildryn with Decaying Dragon key still works and never nedded to be patched, as it's not an immortal build at all. It's a very bad build that is based only on Arcane Aegis proc.

Just to remember, without shields (so, on her shield gating period) Hildryn can cast no abilities and Mods like Brief Respite and the Augur Set do not work on her. The only thing that worked on Hildryn, and that could make her immortal, and it was a real bug, was Energy Siphon Mod, but it worked with no Dragon key equipped.

An old discussion about this shows how this build is vary bad :

 

Il y a 12 heures, TheLexiConArtist a dit :

But that was a 'bug' and removed those years later.

When there is a bug, the Devs decide what to do : keep or remocve. Till they have not decided, they LET PLAYERS DO WHAT THEY WILL (Pablo and Steve on Devstream 162).

But, again, there is absolutely NOT A BUG AT ALL with Decaying Dragon key method, as :

1) Shield gating is working as intended

2) Decaying key is working as intended

An interaction between two intended mechanics do not create a non intended mechanic (or a bug).

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Good Practical Jokes:

be MR30

go to the busiest Relay

give everyone Shield Blessing

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2022-05-29 at 12:24 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

So was Ivara being able to bullet jump while Prowling, as long as you did your inputs just right. That was there for years....

But that was a 'bug' and removed those years later.

There are a few important differences between Decaying Key Synergy and Ivara Jump.

1. Ivara Jump is a timing issue, which in general are more difficult to track to a root cause and fix.  In contrast, Decaying Key Synergy would be trivial to "fix" if desired.
2. Ivara Jump affects only a single ability on a single frame, making its impact on the overall game low, which in turn makes it a lower priority issue to address.  In contrast, Decaying Key Synergy affects nearly all frames, and has become a widespread part of the meta, so if the devs see it as an issue, it would be very high priority.

In short, Ivara Jump was less impactful to the game and more difficult to fix, and yet DE solved it.  Meanwhile, the meta-defining, easy-to-fix Decaying Key Synergy has been in the game untouched for 2 years.  And it is DE, not the players, who determine what is and isn't an exploit.  Until DE says otherwise, using the Decaying Key Synergy is just an everyday part of the game.

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Ivara Jump is a timing issue

It was literally crouch and jump. There was only "timing" involved if you wanted to chain them together. The difficulty of "fixing" it is complete speculation on your part.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

And it is DE, not the players, who determine what is and isn't an exploit.

DE did decided that Venari healing objectives was an exploit.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Until DE says otherwise, using the Decaying Key Synergy is just an everyday part of the game.

"Until DE says otherwise, Galvanized Status mods' damage bonus multiplying base damage mods on select weapons is just an intended part of the game."

__Insert unintended mechanic/interaction__ is an intended part of the game because DE hasn't done anything about it yet.

Nourish applying to select abilities is clearly an intended mechanic and just an everyday part of the game. It's not like DE patched out that interaction before. No way. Clearly intended.
Oh wait. . .

On 2022-05-28 at 5:57 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

🌺 LET PLAYERS DO WHAT THEY WILL 🌺. And that's what the Devs are doing now: they are letting players use the Dragon key method if they want.

Okay, let me use my resource duping synergies. Let players do what they will.

[(PSN)Unstar]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

__Insert unintended mechanic/interaction__ is an intended part of the game because DE hasn't done anything about it yet.

If this is genuinely what you think I'm saying, then you've misunderstood me.  I will try to clarify:

1. It's not simply that it's in the game, it's that it has been a meta-defining aspect of the game for 2 years when it is easy to change.  All of these components are important parts of the argument.  If a single one of them is not taken into account, then it is a different argument.
2. The conclusion of this argument is not that the Dragon Key Synergy was initially intended; rather, the conclusion is that if a meta-defining aspect of the game that is easy to change has been in the game for 2 years, this suggests that the developers don't see it as an exploit, because meta-defining exploits get addressed with urgency.

[fo3nixz]

Condition Overload got introduced late 2016 ish? and got fixed only 3 years later..

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

• It's not simply that it's in the game, it's that it has been a meta-defining aspect of the game for 2 years when it is easy to change.  All of these components are important parts of the argument.  If a single one of them is not taken into account, then it is a different argument.
• The conclusion of this argument is not that the Dragon Key Synergy was initially intended; rather, the conclusion is that if a meta-defining aspect of the game that is easy to change has been in the game for 2 years, this suggests that the developers don't see it as an exploit, because meta-defining exploits get addressed with urgency.

See: Condition Overload, Maiming Strike Blood Rush Interaction

[prodi1600]

It would be nice if DE tried to give something to shield besides shield gating, it would be nice to have the option to go for shields or health in a viable and impactful way, not having to slap a dragon key+brief respite +rolling guard and do this in mag, hildryn or any shield based frame.

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

See: Condition Overload, Maiming Strike Blood Rush Interaction

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the latter (feel free to fill me in on all the details), but with Condition Overload there was no exploit.  The simple act of putting a single mod in your weapon isn't an exploit.  DE put the mod in the game, and 3 years later the decided to make some adjustments.  People who used the mod before that time weren't performing exploits, they were simply using a mod.

Now, if you are simply presenting the case of Condition Overload to showcase that even established content might be changed in the future, then we are in agreement.  Only the Fates can say whether the Decaying Key Synergy will be patched away at some point in the future, especially considering that buffs, nerfs, and tweaks are a frequent part of DE's dev cycle.

[fo3nixz]

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1136784-update-26-the-old-blood/

Condition Overload - Now uses a stacking multiplier based on how many Status Effects are on the target at 120% damage per Status.

• During this whole Melee rebalance, Condition Overload remained a persistent outlier. Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from. This is because this type of stacking makes for very hard to control damage progression, and tends to be very confusing as to which damage, Melee/Proc etc, applies where. This new version of the mod makes Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows. Even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.
• The new ‘Lifted’ Status also counts for Condition Overload calculation. Revised Stances and the new Heavy Attack give reliable ways of applying Status to enemies, which greatly increases the reliability of Condition Overload

• Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising 60% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2).

• Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased 150%. 

 

Condition Overload got introduced in The War Within: Update 19.2.0 (december 2016)

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/728401-the-war-within-update-1920/

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 1 heure, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom a dit :

Okay, let me use my resource duping synergies. Let players do what they will.

It's the Devs own words. You can always ask them to let you do it.

They've even created the Dormizone for the Animal Crossing fans who were asking for it, so nothing is impossible.😝😋😜

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the latter (feel free to fill me in on all the details), but with Condition Overload there was no exploit.  The simple act of putting a single mod in your weapon isn't an exploit.  DE put the mod in the game, and 3 years later the decided to make some adjustments.  People who used the mod before that time weren't performing exploits, they were simply using a mod.

It was by DE’s own words, an unintended mechanic.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2022-05-30 at 8:56 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I disagree, it's not still a negative base, but it can negate all negative effect.

You graphic shows nothing we don't already know. Of course your base stat is reduced and that the ability bonus you can use to avoid it will be based on this reduced base, but the bonus can be much greater than the stat reduction : no Extinguished key can counter Banshee's Sonar, which has the greater damage multiplier in the game up to this day. Rhino's Iron Skin and old Mag's Shield Polarize are not affected by Decaying key, but by power strengh (and the same goes for Trinity's abilities in regard to the Bleeding key). Hobbled key can be counterd by Rush Mod with a well moded Volt's Speed.

Just to put things in order :

Someone said that Dragon keys have penalties and penalties are made to weaken the player.

And I've also shown that Dragon key's penalties could be avoided from the beginning when they were introduced.

Decaying key : Mag's Shiled Polarise (old ability set), Rhino's Iron Skin.

Hobbled key : Volt's Speed, (also Zorencopter).

Bleeding key : almost all Trinity's abilities.

Extinguished key : Banshee's Sonar.

This shows that from the beginning the Devs were aware that Dragon Keys penalties could perfectly be avoided by certain frames. And nobody can say energy was a problem at the begining of Warframe, as Trinity as already there. These penalties are there to force players use their brains to forge a build and a squad to avoid them.

Literally zero of the above factors make the Dragon Key effect beneficial (scalar < 0).

Some of them are even still taking the full hit of the negative effect - looking at Speed, looking at Sonar - You can multiply (sprint|damage) by 100 if you want, but that Key is still also applying its 0.25 multiplier on top. The fact you come out ahead matters little - it's still a quarter of where you could be.

On 2022-05-30 at 8:56 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I've shown that a penalty can be used to streghthen the player : Narrow Minded penalty on Nova, Blind Rage penalty on Chroma... And this was intended by the Devs (sometimes, things like this appear on the in game tips).
--
With these, I could make this statement : some penalties are not made to neccessarily weaken the player, as some can give them an advantage, and others can be easily avoided (an avoided penalty does not weaken the player, even though the player could be even stronger without them).

The Dragon key method is just a way players found to take advantage from a penalty, and, as shown, nobody can say this is a problem because a penalty is neccessarily made to weaken.

Where does negative efficiency benefit Dragon Bro, exactly? The value of the strength just outweighed it because refreshable huge stacks are refreshable.

Narrow Minded 'helps' Nova the same way it 'helps' Limbo protect a console when there's Nullifiers about - it's arguably a case of design failures of the inverse. As with Baruuk's Daggers, it's control out of the player's hands providing an effect which should help but isn't helpful in comparison to Not Doing That.
A big protective bubble should be better, not disappear because they added yet-another oveloaded function to the God Bubble so the slightest brush causes an entire area ability to be noped.
An ability that explicitly flings projectiles at enemies without player input should be exclusively beneficial to do so because the player has no control - it is not, therefore Narrow Minded strangles 'control' away by force.

I expect that almost all of these 'benefits from drawbacks' would be classified under the above rule - not "why does the deficit benefit", but "why does the benefit functionally deficit (or require a deficit)". The former exists because the latter.

On 2022-05-30 at 8:56 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Could you give some reference ? Normally, Hildryn with Decaying Dragon key still works and never nedded to be patched, as it's not an immortal build at all. It's a very bad build that is based only on Arcane Aegis proc.

Just to remember, without shields (so, on her shield gating period) Hildryn can cast no abilities and Mods like Brief Respite and the Augur Set do not work on her. The only thing that worked on Hildryn, and that could make her immortal, and it was a real bug, was Energy Siphon Mod, but it worked with no Dragon key equipped.

An old discussion about this shows how this build is vary bad :

Without trying to trawl through the update notes to find it (if it was even in one and not shadowed one day), the general idea as I remember it was thus:

• Hildryn's Shield Gate was longer than the Shield Recharge Delay
• With the reduction from Decaying, Hildryn could regen Shields enough before the Gate expired to keep the above true.

I can't immediately recall if that was "even the partial gate was long enough, so regen at all was good enough to be immortal" or more likely if it was to refill fully for the extended gate, possibly with modding help for recharge speed (Fast Deflection / Fortitude). In any case, it was passive god mode much like E-Siphon Hildy was for a while more recently.

On 2022-05-30 at 8:56 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

When there is a bug, the Devs decide what to do : keep or remocve. Till they have not decided, they LET PLAYERS DO WHAT THEY WILL (Pablo and Steve on Devstream 162).

But, again, there is absolutely NOT A BUG AT ALL with Decaying Dragon key method, as :

1) Shield gating is working as intended

2) Decaying key is working as intended

An interaction between two intended mechanics do not create a non intended mechanic (or a bug).

Tell that to the players banned for Switch Teleporting the Demolysts into pits back in the Hostile Merger event.

"Intended" they'd cry, "We're using the game's abilities and environment cleverly together!"

But DE decided this was defeating the point of the event's scaling in an unfairly differentiating way to 'normal' gameplay.

And those players cried no more, for they were gone.

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

There are a few important differences between Decaying Key Synergy and Ivara Jump.

1. Ivara Jump is a timing issue, which in general are more difficult to track to a root cause and fix.  In contrast, Decaying Key Synergy would be trivial to "fix" if desired.
2. Ivara Jump affects only a single ability on a single frame, making its impact on the overall game low, which in turn makes it a lower priority issue to address.  In contrast, Decaying Key Synergy affects nearly all frames, and has become a widespread part of the meta, so if the devs see it as an issue, it would be very high priority.

In short, Ivara Jump was less impactful to the game and more difficult to fix, and yet DE solved it.  Meanwhile, the meta-defining, easy-to-fix Decaying Key Synergy has been in the game untouched for 2 years.  And it is DE, not the players, who determine what is and isn't an exploit.  Until DE says otherwise, using the Decaying Key Synergy is just an everyday part of the game.

 

This is what we in the business call "moving the goalposts".

It was a non-intrusive capability that was allowed for years, no sign anywhere of it being called a problem they're aware of until the day they 'fixed' it.

Things being 'widespread parts of the meta' don't necessarily make DE jump on it immediately. Half the time they'd happily use it themselves in Community Streams before rug-pulling the 'intended mechanic'.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the latter (feel free to fill me in on all the details)

Basically, instead of:
(weapon base Crit Chance) * (Crit Chance multiplier) + (Meme Strike 90%)
It operated as:
((wbCC) + (MS 90%)) * (CCM)

When paired with Blood Rush and/or Gladiator Mods, in particular.

Which meant weapons were reaching several thousand percent Crit Chance at full stacks - and every weapon was a fully crit weapon, even if they had a normally-worthless base of 5%.