AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

On 2022-08-27 at 11:44 AM, Numerikuu said:

Correction: It means you actually have to play the game now and not afk while your clone nukes everything.

Sorry kid but if you actually knew anything about the twin he doesn't do anything if you just sit there.

What's the difference in him blowing stuff up and you using your abilities to kill everything?  Oh that's right.... nothing.

[(PSN)Mister_Sicky]

Imagine making guns that perform AOE then making prime mods that increase that damage only to turn around and cry because AOE weapons are being used. 

Sounds a lot like Bungie and their idiotic nerfing everything because people actually use it and it works well.  How dare you for using something that works exactly how it was designed.

Rarely play Warframe anymore anyway and it will be even less now.  It's stale and repetitive as it is with horrible drops.  2 years of doing sorties and I have a total of 1 legendary core drop.  ONE.  LoL what's the point of wasting 30 minutes for a Statue or crap no one needs anyway.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

Just wondering how DE will treat weapon ammo pools that have both single target and AOE alt fire modes? I know DE is lowering the ammo pools for AOE weapons;  so was wondering what the community thinks DE will do for these specific types of weapons. 

devs have already designed several such weapons. we have tenet version and other strange rifle. both do not convince and have rather poor performance. I couldn't play Tenet Tetra without ammo aura back then. I think that's exactly their plan.
if devs go in this direction, then i can play with my grandpa Boltor Prime from 2014 right away. makes more sense

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Did they say this?  I'm honestly confused by the ammo changes, and the practical effect they'll have on AoE use, so maybe I missed it.

I'm clear they're consolidating ammo into primary and secondary.   And reducing the ammo drops by half but doubling the amount they contain.  So more peaks and valleys which will be felt by low ammo reserve weapons more than others.

Except that most primary AoE are currently dependent on sniper ammo packs which only drop 6.5% of the time.   Consolidating these into primary mean they'll drop 50% of the time.   Without getting into the math...big net increase in the amount of ammo available to launchers.   I'm missing a critical piece here. 

Pablo did allude to ammo mutation changes, but didn't give specifics.  I'm sure that's part of it.  There also the "ammo pickup" stat that was shown on the Arsenal for the new speargun, but wasn't explained.  Currently sniper ammo packs refill 10 rounds, but the Afentis, with an ammo reserve of 12, only had a value of 4 there. My guess is that big AoE launchers will have a particularly low value there as well.

If that's the direction they're going, cool.  But I'm inferring a lot, so maybe this is completely off. The approach would closely parallel suggestions I and others have made before about consolidating ammo types and using pickups to throttle weapon use  (/brag) so maybe I'm just reading what I want to read into it.

Yeah this is my issue with the change too, and I really don't think just nerfing their ammo gain is going to do much. 

[Tyreaus]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

Sorry kid but if you actually knew anything about the twin he doesn't do anything if you just sit there.

Quote

$*LALT:: 
Loop 
{ 
if not GetKeyState("LALT","P") 
break 
SendInput {e Down}
Sleep 035
SendInput {e Up}
Sleep 100
}
RETURN

That's a quick-and-dirty autohotkey script that automatically swings the player's weapon every handful of ticks.

Can also tweak it to do the same thing when Mouse 1 is held down and just put some weight on it. Some people might be doing that so they aren't having to mash the melee button so much (e.g. from RSI concerns).

That should stave off the AFK timer and let the player just sit there. Maybe browse the forums on their phone.

_{BTW that script won't actually work - I'm not going to post a legitimate AFK avoidance script. But if you know AHK, it's not that much of a change to get it working.}

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Mister_Sicky:

Imagine making guns that perform AOE then making prime mods that increase that damage only to turn around and cry because AOE weapons are being used. 

Sounds a lot like Bungie and their idiotic nerfing everything because people actually use it and it works well.  How dare you for using something that works exactly how it was designed.

Rarely play Warframe anymore anyway and it will be even less now.  It's stale and repetitive as it is with horrible drops.  2 years of doing sorties and I have a total of 1 legendary core drop.  ONE.  LoL what's the point of wasting 30 minutes for a Statue or crap no one needs anyway.

I'll tell you more... I've been playing sorties since release and had 1 leg core in the first year. since then no more! 😉
and these jokers gave us a leg core as a reward for mr31 and mr32... i gave away this junk to beginners.

and we can farm super easy million credits in index or get 4k endo in 3 min in new ext bountie.

where is the logic? Oh yes.... 😂

[_LotusPrime_]

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Update not dropped yet and people already complaining. 

Reb and Pablo have stated very VERY clearly, they are bringing Warframe back to the good old days of aim and shoot. Of engagement. No more spamming abilities and void dash. No more afk and auto aim. No more "shoot Zarr at that general direction and kill everything". No more automation. 

Hence the gentle nerf of AoE. Hence the 3x headshot multiplier. Hence Critical Precision on Tiberon. Hence the armor strip rework.

You need to look at the game as a whole instead of just AoE. We have AoE nerf, but when the great work is done, we don't NEED AoE. We are moving to the golden age of Warframe. The best is yet to come.

you can use single target just as well currently tho ... 

so you can ' live ' that golden age just as well now , nothings stupping it , and if your argument is whether or not others should  or shouldnt use aoe in pubs (becasue thats the only area where one could get affected) , if so then thats very petty and thats more on your self fixation on using single target in pubs and less about others using aoe 

lets drop the notion that aoe is some sinful sinful thing because its not , its a choice one can have , if you dont personally wanna use it thats fine! but making others not use it is also selfish . 

I know in these forums not much people say it but it needs to be said at some point , lets not kill the choice in the frigin game 

 

[Uan91]

2 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Speed Nova makes it go very fast

Not Always,in arbitration the drones just disables all abilities

[Tiltskillet]

54 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But the amount picked up will be dynamic , subject to a weapon stat. Every weapon will have a different stat , which will probably be a function of ammo pool , magazine , damage done etc. or be completely arbitrary , i dont know.

 

So in short:

chance to drop = fixed,

What you actually pick up = variable.

This is my guess too. And they'll let weapon class and a key stat or stats to almost all the heavy lifting.  Maybe hand tune a few.

Anyway, if so, it's unfortunate that they spent the time they did preparing us for ammo changes but not this crucial component on top of which the structure is teetering.  (SFAIK.  It's a long video, and it's possible I missed it if they brought it up later.)

[(XBOX)Obi Wan Dandobi]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

Yes. unfortunately a lot of warframes are unplayable in high lvl missions. and that's a lot more than half in my opinion. I don't know if warframe buffs with stones bring much. because even wukong with 1800 health, 800 armor and 13m aoe weapon with high heat proc dies very fast.

Pretty sure this is hyperbole but if not you really need to go back to the drawing board and learn how to mod and play the game

[Prexades]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Venus-Venera:

they don't even play the game. they have no idea about balance or whatever.
coder staring at program code 8 hours a day. and project managers stare at mindless statistics.

that's why you can only laugh at their decisions. because there is no clue or logic.
they don't even read forums...

and you are wrong and completely off the rails.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb Uan91:

Not Always,in arbitration the drones just disables all abilities

it is mostly camped in infested def. aoe warframe with 2 supports with max range aoe weapons makes more sense here. aoe warframe mostly does 60-80% team damage.
there was double resources weekend earlier. and we got more than 400 vitus in 40 minutes.

nova must not buff infested because infested can kill almost the whole group quickly. or even worse: def obj is killed.

vor 1 Minute schrieb Prexades:

and you are wrong and completely off the rails.

no.

[Voltage]

12 hours ago, K0bra said:

This would be horrible and actually hurt the gameplay.

When you drive your ship and you have crew members set to defenders and they run out of ammo. There would be no defense.

The reliance on Specters is more harmful than nerfing them. I don't think it hurts the game if crew members can't just be given tenet cycron and melt enemies to infinity.

[ChaoticEdge]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, Nerf this ammo count when players going pull out protea's ability and ammo gear

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb ChaoticEdge:

HAHAHAHAHAHA, Nerf this ammo count when players going pull out protea's ability and ammo gear

don't forget carrier.
and I will probably play with nekros again. probably makes more sense.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Depends on the the Syndicate. I hear the Red Veil guy is pretty cut up about all this, and is muttering under his breath about resorting to cannibalism (again) and the New Loka contingent are disgusted... but they are generally just disgusted by everything, so its hard to tell what exactly it is they are turning their noses up at. Though its that weird kind of over emphasised disgust "these AOE changes are filthy... so impure... dirty! You are a naughty Tenno who needs to be cleansed! Report to the Silver Grove for a group cleansing!" Is it genocide or is it weird role play? Who knows! 

[(PSN)Unstar]

10 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

But I do hope they give the same treatment to Wukong Clone to all allies like equinox clone from duality or Railjack Crew Members or sentient frame

It's not entirely clear how this will pan out, but from a design standpoint adding ammo to Equinox's Duality doesn't seem like it would serve any purpose, since that ability has a very short duration even if you're trying to maximize Duration, and hence it's not at-risk of an AFK playstyle.  Arguably the same could be said for Crew Members on your Railjack, because there's no Railjack mission you can complete by just sitting in your ship.  Not sure about the Crew Members on-call summons in normal missions, as I've never used that.

[OniDax]

12 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Update not dropped yet and people already complaining. 

Reb and Pablo have stated very VERY clearly, they are bringing Warframe back to the good old days of aim and shoot. Of engagement. No more spamming abilities and void dash. No more afk and auto aim. No more "shoot Zarr at that general direction and kill everything". No more automation. 

Hence the gentle nerf of AoE. Hence the 3x headshot multiplier. Hence Critical Precision on Tiberon. Hence the armor strip rework.

You need to look at the game as a whole instead of just AoE. We have AoE nerf, but when the great work is done, we don't NEED AoE. We are moving to the golden age of Warframe. The best is yet to come.

Aiming and shooting has always been mediocre in Warframe. There were never good old days of aim and shoot in Warframe. During those so-called good ol' days, players spammed quick melee (when that was the only option) because that was the best way of AOE and then only played with melee (when the stance system came) because gunplay was so bad. DE's never improved that. If DE cared about aim and shoot, there would be an ADS system in Warframe. DE doesn't care about aim and shoot. If DE cared about engagement, enemies wouldn't be dumb horde shooters but would actually take cover and shoot from cover, call in support systems instead of randomly attacking, and engage in actual melee-vs-melee combat with the player. DE doesn't care about engagement. And neither does the player base. Because if you all cared about that, you'd want a smarter game, a game that focused on gunplay and melee gameplay, not on collecting stuff, a game that was slower paced so that players would focus on aim and shoot and not bounce around the map as fast as possible to get the rewards. If you all cared about aim and shoot, you'd play other shooters that focus on aiming and shooting. No, most people here, including DE, do not care about aim and shoot or engagement.

 

 

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb (PSN)Unstar:

AFK playstyle

where and how is afk played?

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

True  

No aim assist for controller

Even HEADs are tiny or hidden no matter what headshot buffs are. 

We are not Genburton or Nicewigg.

Pablo's DE leads us the way to what we can't do.

Plus, his Primed Sure Footed nerf plan will kill epitaph, too, which is a part of melee play.

Pablo's plan excludes console tennos, it's obvious.

 

I exclusively play with a pad and do not struggle to land headshots with most weapons.  Like, yeah if you're being a space ninja on speed and flipping/dashing around everywhere landing hipfire headshots is asking for a lot.  But it's more than doable even with aim gliding.  Besides it's not like this nukes AoE weapon viability.  Given that armor is going to be stripped (and perma stripped mind you,) AoE is still going to paint hallways with bodies.  As most units have a very small health pool even when level 150.  Also the prime sure footed nerf is not going through.  It and the LoS idea they mentioned were exclusively mentioned as back up ideas to further nerf AoE if these initial set of changes don't pan out enough.

6 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

B-but... headshots require aiming!!... 🤢 🤮

I kid lol, but for real, I was not expecting a headshot multiplier increase. You could practically hear all the Harrow mains (and people who prefer single target weapons in general) squee at that moment.

I don't think anyone was really expecting it to be fair.  But that's going to be incredibly disgusting for a lot of weapons.  I feel a lot of people aren't grasping how massive a headshot multiplier increase actually is.  Personally i'm very excited to use shotguns again since I love punch through as a stat and this just buffs that quite significantly.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

oh and i forgot to mention , not all frames can ' abuse ' shield gating since some animations take very long time even with natural talent
 

That's why you use things like Arcanes (both WF and Operator) as well as subsuming.

2 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

you can use single target just as well currently tho ...
so you can ' live ' that golden age just as well now , nothings stupping it , and if your argument is whether or not others should  or shouldnt use aoe in pubs (becasue thats the only area where one could get affected) , if so then thats very petty and thats more on your self fixation on using single target in pubs and less about others using aoe 

lets drop the notion that aoe is some sinful sinful thing because its not , its a choice one can have , if you dont personally wanna use it thats fine! but making others not use it is also selfish . 

I know in these forums not much people say it but it needs to be said at some point , lets not kill the choice in the frigin game 

 

Making AoE less effective on weapons is not killing AoE.  Arguing with such extremes just devolves into back and forth attacks rather than an actual discussion.  DE isn't removing AoE as an option.  Being asked to use more than one gun in your loadout in a mission is not removing AoE.  You do realize you still have frames that nuke rooms?  You do realize that this update also makes it so armor strip is much more accessible as well as strong right?  You're aware that most enemies don't have a lot of HP right?

I'm betting that if you build a way to strip armor into your favorite loadout your AoE weapons will still clean a hallway out even in steel path.  It's really not that difficult to pick up that all DE is doing is asking you to engage with the game more.  Did you have a problem with them nerfing 1 button frames when they started their reworks as well?  Let me put it a different way, if your ideal/fun way to play Warframe is to pick an immortal frame that you barely need to interact with and you just want to take one gun and point it down a hallway and remove enemies from the game then that's fine.

However, DE has decided that specific way of playing the game is not how the game should be advertised to other people.  DE has chosen to make careful balance adjustments to still allow for a less interactive experience that you desire.  It's just not going to be as effective as it currently is.  That's also fine.  If that really kills your fun then that sucks.  But i'd also have to question just how much enjoyment you actually get from playing the game at that point since you're basically just playing a clicking simulator.

I don't like operators from a gameplay standpoint.  The devs are making it more important to interact with them.  Is that frustrating for me?  You bet.  But I'm not going to ask the devs to not use one of their systems in the game or attempt to make said system more enjoyable when they ask me to interact with them.  It's really that simple.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I just realized there’s going to be a bit of a surge in AOE use after the changes drop with all the people testing out how well it works.

Hope DE isn’t deliberately setting things up to “justify” those potential nerfs they were considering.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)GearsMatrix301:

I just realized there’s going to be a bit of a surge in AOE use after the changes drop with all the people testing out how well it works.

Hope DE isn’t deliberately setting things up to “justify” those potential nerfs they were considering.

why? because of advertising in the forum?

the beginner was fooled in my opinion. they read in the forum that wukong is supposed to be "OP" and bought it with plat. and now his 1 skill is ruined and it doesn't give them any advantage in the game if they have to play with mele.

the same with aoe weapons. either you don't have any ammunition or there are great stagger effects or you don't do enough damage with it.

🙄

[PrimalordialBob]

If you're going to nerf all the ways to kill hordes, it's time to get rid of the hordes all together.

[B0G4TYR]

Hey DE/Tencent people, listen up. You boast of a living origin system yet you miss every chance to make it feel alive. So yah, players globally are really fond of area effect weapons. Wat to do eh? Insted of your primitive approach of nerfing, try "Tenno the corpus and grinner have intergrated blast plating in their armour, they now have this and this much aoe resistance" Big difference huh? This means WE the players can shape the Warframe Universe. Now thats exciting. Next idea will cost you $$$ I ALSO ACCEPT PLAT.