Limbo is useless now?

[Mr.Z2907]

I want to understand the reasoning for why DE decided it was a great idea to make Eximus units invincible to crowd control. I am a mr 26 on xbox, came back from a 7 month break, started a new account on Pc to relive the newb days of when I first started out Warframe and completed a quest for one of my favorite CC frames which is limbo, to find out his abilities do not work against Eximus units whatsoever. If that wasn't enough, Eximus units are somehow ALLOWED to hit limbo through the rift? The only thing that kept this frame relevant in defense game modes if people knew how to use him or in solo missions is now gone. He is completely useless. I'm sure De will be like "Slap on rolling guard or some survival mods." No. Limbo is meant to be squishy and the one thing that made him unique has been completely tarnished and put into the ground, 30 feet under. This is outrageous. I can't even go a single defense mission without dying over and over by a SINGLE EXIMUS AOE. The reason I took a break was to because of the lack of content. I was happy that eximus units were actually not a pushover anymore but to make them like this is ridiculous. If you are going to have enemies (That appear more and more often in endless missions the longer you go) that cancel out CC abilities the same way some acolytes and the stalker do,  then you may as well take out the CC frames from the game altogether.  Take out the xp required to move onto mastery ranks because I see no other reason for this frame to stay in game anymore. I'd love to see the DE staff play with Limbo while they are being swarmed by Eximus units IN steel path missions and tell the community this is fine. Updates been out for 5 months so I've assumed they are just going to keep it this way. Honestly, I don't want to find out how this has affected other frames that relied heavily on CC. After finding this out, may go on another hiatus until they fix it or until I am able to accept that this is how "modern Warframe" will be and just farm out the xp from both limbo and limbo prime and just toss them into a shredder so they'll never be used again.

edit: This is more toward the topic of Limbo since I wrote this very late in the evening without thinking much of it.

[Helljack84]

1 hour ago, Mr.Z2907 said:

I want to understand the reasoning for why DE decided it was a great idea to make Eximus units invincible to crowd control.

If Eximus units didn't interact with Limbo (and other CC frames) the way they do what exactly would be the difference between them and any other enemy?

1 hour ago, Mr.Z2907 said:

his abilities do not work against Eximus units whatsoever. If that wasn't enough, Eximus units are somehow ALLOWED to hit limbo through the rift? The only thing that kept this frame relevant in defense game modes if people knew how to use him or in solo missions is now gone.

If by "know how to use him" you mean press a single button to deactivate enemies (and their victory conditions) and stare at the timer till it says you win, yes that's probably gone.

Personally I'm still on the fence if his kit is amazing or trash but if that single thing is all he can do he's probably been trash from the very beginning.

1 hour ago, Mr.Z2907 said:

"Slap on rolling guard or some survival mods."

1 hour ago, Mr.Z2907 said:

I can't even go a single defense mission without dying over and over by a SINGLE EXIMUS AOE.

Outside of rolling guard and/or shieldgating defensive mods probably won't take you very far on Limbo. There are some abilites available via Helminth that could make him a lot more beefy but that'd cost more ability/mod slots.

The latter sounds like a you issue, but it's probably this explosion wave thingy that somehow manages to oneshot anything on pure random chance. Dodge it.

Aside from that your best chances are probably specters or simply getting some teammates. If everything else fails there's still Revenant.

[shocker53]

2 hours ago, Mr.Z2907 said:

I can't even go a single defense mission without dying over and over by a SINGLE EXIMUS AOE

Skill issue tbh

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 2 heures, Mr.Z2907 a dit :

I want to understand the reasoning for why DE decided it was a great idea to make Eximus units invincible to crowd control.

They've said that, when tested, the new Eximus were no threat without CC immunity : all their work would be useless if the Eximus could have been crowd controlled by just pressing a button.

That's why I think Helljack84 is right when he says :

il y a 34 minutes, Helljack84 a dit :

If Eximus units didn't interact with Limbo (and other CC frames) the way they do what exactly would be the difference between them and any other enemy?

The problem is that DE also made some frames ignore Eximus threat : Revenant can now just ignore Eximus (as before) by just using Mesmer Skin.

This is, in my opinion, a lack of consistency : CC frames were nerfed to not ignore Eximus threat level, but Revenant was buffed in a way he can totally ignore Eximus threat level.

Based on my experience (I see that you got a difference experience than mine) the new Eximus can be fought in many different ways by every frame, even CC frames and they are not a great problem, but I had to adapt : Nyx has no problem to deal with Eximus (Assimilation can protect her for the fight). Benshee can prevent them from casting their abilities, CC everybody around and remove overguard using Sonar's damage buff. Hildryn can easily survive with her buffed shield gate while fighting the Eximus with weapons. Hydroid can use Tidal Surge to move fast and attack Eximus to remove their overguard while CCing everything aroung with his other abilities. Of course, you can use the operator with all these frames with no problem.

Limbo can freeze time and CC enemies around to concentrate on the Eximus. The great problem with Limbo is the OPERATOR. With every single frame you can choose to use the operator to fight the Eximus, but if you're using Limbo and the Eximus is inside the Rift, your operator, even if he is inside the Rift too, will be unable to damage the overguard. This way Limbo cannot benefit all the time from the operator abilities and from the Void Damage multiplicator against overguard.

[pook-pook]

CC frames are far from dead. I just used Titania, for example, in the current top tier Zariman bounty which required no damage to the mob defense target. A couple of lanterns kept most of the mobs occupied while I took care of the minibosses directly.

[Helljack84]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

If you're using Limbo and the Eximus is inside the Rift, your operator, even if he is inside the Rift too, will be unable to damage the overguard.

That's incredibly stupid, I hope this isn't intended.

While we're at it if you're not running specific schools and/or weapons you won't be doing much to high lvl eximus anyway. It sure doesn't feel like they're exceptionally vulnerable.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 10 minutes, Helljack84 a dit :

That's incredibly stupid, I hope this isn't intended.

While we're at it if you're not running specific schools and/or weapons you won't be doing much to high lvl eximus anyway. It sure doesn't feel like they're exceptionally vulnerable.

It's not intended, but it's a bug that happens since the New Eximus introduction (Zariman update). If you're inside the bubble and you go on operator mode, you will be unable to make damage and use your abilities on the enemies inside. The bug causes the operator to be considered as outside the Rift, even if you are inside it. No matter your school, no matter your amp.

I've mentioned that on a thread about limbo some time ago :

Le 21/06/2022 à 11:00, (NSW)AegisFifi a dit :

I totally agree, this is a great problem.

And there are many other problems with Limbo since the Zariman update : the Operator is unable to make damage while inside Limbo's Cataclysm Bubble. One option to figth Eximus with Limbo is to CC others enemies to focus on the Eximus and use the Operator powers to CC the Eximus a bit (Zenurik speed down as an exemple) and try to get rid of the Overguard with your Amp. But, while inside the Bubble, the Operator does no damage at all (it's like the Operator is considered as outside the Rift, while inside the Bubble).

And another problem is that if you get rid of the Eximus Overguard inside the Rift with Stasis active, the Eximus will not be affected by the Active Stasis : you will have to decast Stasis and recast it again to be able to freeze the Eximus.

In my opinion, Limbo and Banshee (even though Silence is great against Eximus) are the frames that suffered the most from the Eximus rework.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1314994-limbos-big-problem-limbo-sucks-now-20/#comment-12543114

 

[Tiltskillet]

Rumors of the death of CC frames are much exaggerated.  The only one I've noticed a big reduction of use on is Limbo.  And...good?  But I still see him used a decent amount.   And thankfully it's more often short range Limbo.

Although frankly, a few other CC frames were used so rarely before that even if they've been impacted much, it's hard to tell the difference now.  Example: Nyx.

I do think DE needs to continue touching up frames and frame abilities that are CC oriented.  A big one is making sure most abilities with both CC and non-CC components aren't overly hamstrung by Overguard.  They made this adjustment with Mesmer Skin and Avalanche, but there are still many others like  Harrow Condemn shield restore and Equinox Rage's damage debuff. 

And maybe some CC abilities should get a special function against Overguard enemies.  Mind Control is one that comes to mind, where a stun would at least be something.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

@(NSW)AegisFifi Even better, for Nyx, her Chaos Sphere ignores Eximus Overshield to make them go beat their allies. It's my go to frame for dealing with Profit-Taker since I can just brain grape the enemies and make them ignore me the whole fight and make the Profit-Taker more likely to shoot other Corpus than bother with me. 

Xaku can reduce their protections even through their Overshields, though The Lost: Gaze doesn't affect Overshields. Xata's Whisper, does to make Eximus unable to even shoot you whilst the status is running. Just shooting themselves in the face. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Exaggerations. 

If anything, CC makes it easier to actually focus Eximus because it takes fodder out of the way.

I did the archon interception sortie with a 280 range Nyx with no issues.

[cute_moth.npc]

I feel like some Warframes like Limbo were left with a few too little tools to deal with the game changes, but overall CC is still very good. I am playing CC Titania and Gyre a lot lately and it's fun.

I am hopeful that maybe they review Warframes that feel like they lack good tools for modern Warframe and revise them a little bit though ^^

[Tiltskillet]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I did the archon interception sortie with a 280 range Nyx with no issues.

 

Oooh, does Chaos affect sentients directly?  If so, I can see how that would make it extremely useful in the Archon Intercept.

 

edit: yeah, looks like it does mess with their AI.  In the sim, anyway.  Sentient AI is a little screwy there though even without Chaos.

[cute_moth.npc]

21 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

 

Oooh, does Chaos affect sentients directly?  If so, I can see how that would make it extremely useful in the Archon Intercept.

 

edit: yeah, looks like it does mess with their AI.  In the sim, anyway.  Sentient AI is a little screwy there though even without Chaos.

I actually think it's funny that for how hyped and scary sentients are supposed to be you can literally just hit them with a CC no problem like a garden variety trash mob. Just don't cast Larva on them lol.

I think it's broken, every time I tried to larva sentients during that mission last night larva would actually FLING THEM AWAY from the impact point and some of them were even going through the the walls and terrain xD

[DeadVoid118]

I think the current situation for CC frames is less than ideal, but they're not completely useless. I'm of the opinion that Eximus units should be similar to some bosses, where CC has drastically diminishing returns for every cast (to a minimum duration of, say, 0.1 seconds) and a shorter duration even on the first cast. A nice middle-ground that doesn't invalidate an ability but does encourage different tools.

8 hours ago, pook-pook said:

CC frames are far from dead. I just used Titania, for example, in the current top tier Zariman bounty which required no damage to the mob defense target. A couple of lanterns kept most of the mobs occupied while I took care of the minibosses directly.

To be fair, I don't consider Titania a pure CC frame, just like I don't for Rhino, Nezha, and Revenant. I would consider Khora and Limbo pure CC frames.

[Leqesai]

CC is far from dead...

Overguard is a bump in a fairly smooth road. I was pretty vocal about my dislike regarding the overguard+cc changes but with some alterations to strategy things really haven't changed much. You just need to plan for eximus units a bit more than before.

Silence has become meta-tier as far as subsume abilities go because it totally shuts eximus units down (they essentially become tanky normal units). 

 

[Mr.Z2907]

14 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

 

If by "know how to use him" you mean press a single button to deactivate enemies (and their victory conditions) and stare at the timer till it says you win, yes that's probably gone

Personally I'm still on the fence if his kit is amazing or trash but if that single thing is all he can do he's probably been trash from the very beginning.

Outside of rolling guard and/or shieldgating defensive mods probably won't take you very far on Limbo. There are some abilites available via Helminth that could make him a lot more beefy but that'd cost more ability/mod slots.

The latter sounds like a you issue, but it's probably this explosion wave thingy that somehow manages to oneshot anything on pure random chance. Dodge it.

Aside from that your best chances are probably specters or simply getting some teammates. If everything else fails there's still Revenant.

His kit is amazing. It's more so the fact that eximus abilities can hit you while you are in the rift while they are outside of the rift thats bugging me. That alone means his unique "passive" only saving grace is now gone. This is coming from someone who uses him with no mods to buff up his tankiness and only a rolling guard incase of emergencies. I've also used him in steel path survivals just meleeing everything thats frozen by his rift.  Now however, I am not sure how to use him if these units can use their abilities to attack through his rift while rolling guard is charging up. Shieldgating is an option but it was something I never liked as it was a sort of cheese for survival (yes limbo's was a cheese too but that was just his kit.)

[Raarsi]

This feels like a "CC frames are useless" thread and more like a "Limbo needs an overhaul" thread.

[Yakhul]

All Hail Frost, the OG King of Defense. Limbo is for the weak.

Jokes aside, it feels like OP has a skill issue. Eximus Units are meant to be a threat to you, thus they have to be handled differently. Contrary to whay OP thinks, Eximus units are vulnerable to some CC abilities, provided you break their overguard first. Frost Avalanche bypass eximus overguard, for armor strip, but wont be frozen until the overguard is broken. I'm sure other frame abilities can bypass it too, but i haven't had the time to test it.

[selig_fay]

16 hours ago, pook-pook said:

CC frames are far from dead. I just used Titania, for example, in the current top tier Zariman bounty which required no damage to the mob defense target. A couple of lanterns kept most of the mobs occupied while I took care of the minibosses directly.

If you've used razorwing, then it's razorfly's job, since threat doesn't count as a cc ability.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 16 heures, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy a dit :

@(NSW)AegisFifi Even better, for Nyx, her Chaos Sphere ignores Eximus Overshield to make them go beat their allies. It's my go to frame for dealing with Profit-Taker since I can just brain grape the enemies and make them ignore me the whole fight and make the Profit-Taker more likely to shoot other Corpus than bother with me. 

Yes, I totally agree with yoy. Nyx is so amazing. She is one of my Top 3 -freams (Trinity, Banshee and Nyx).

As you said, Chaos is still very useful against Eximus aven if they are not directly affected by it : they will attack any nearby mob affected by Chaos. Even though Nyx is a CC based frame, she wasn't really affected by the Eximus changes and the new Eximus abilities work very well with Mind Control (even the Energy Leech Eximus can regen your energy when channeling).

Il y a 16 heures, (PSN)FunyFlyBoy a dit :

Xaku can reduce their protections even through their Overshields, though The Lost: Gaze doesn't affect Overshields. Xata's Whisper, does to make Eximus unable to even shoot you whilst the status is running. Just shooting themselves in the face. 

Yes, Mag's Magnetize works the same way. Void status and Magnetize are "have a taste of your own poisin" anti-Eximus mechanics.

 

I'm very glad to read your answer : always nice to see how other players are doing. Thanks a lot. 👍

[NuclearCoffeePot]

On 2022-09-22 at 1:11 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Exaggerations. 

If anything, CC makes it easier to actually focus Eximus because it takes fodder out of the way.

I did the archon interception sortie with a 280 range Nyx with no issues.

Indeed, though the op specifically referred to Limbo, whose cc works by displacing enemies with a unique status, so they  can only be damaged by abilities, or when your warframe is also in the same place. Eximus units force Limbo to leave the rift, and since his only built in survival is a lockdown on enemies in the rift, and since eximus abilities can go through the rift anyway, it means while in the rift Limbo is at their mercy, and if he leaves the rift he is even more vulnerable.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hmmm... X to Doubt on this topic. I mean, let's take a quick look at an example.

Banshee is typically known to be a CC frame, but she also has the options for full, permanent armour strip, and for creating the greatest enemy Debuff in the game that can have you dealing squared or cubed multiplied damage (Sonar spots can overlap, so a power strength of just +50% can give you a multiplier of 7.5x damage, which then overlaps for a multiplier of 56.25x damage, or if you're using the Augment you can often get three to overlap for a 421.875x multiplier). One of the best damage buffing frames in the game.

On top of that she's got Silence. While this can't directly CC an Eximus, it can completely shut down the Abilities that Eximus enemies use. So it reduces these units to little more than regular enemies with some Overguard.

And let's not forget that while Eximus enemies are immune to full CC functions, such as Status-based or ragdoll-based, they aren't immune to Slow functions. Which we have a dozen frames that are CC that will do that instead. From Frost (who got a great buff with the last update), to Sevagoth, to Rhino, Xaku, our Operators.

On top of that they aren't immune to decoy functions, such as Octavia's Mallet and Resonator, Titania's Razorflies, Loki's and Saryn's decoys, Wisp's Will-o-Wisp, Nekros' Shadows, Revenant's Thralls, Xaku's Accuse targets, Nyx's Mind Control targets, Gara's mirrors, and literally anything affected by Radiation (which I highly recommend taking on at least one Priming weapon if you can, especially on missions with a lot of Eximus, because it also removes the buffs that Eximus give their allies). 

Also, since Eximus Overguard was nerfed, breaking it with direct damage is incredibly easy, and the Eximus is then immediately (and permanently) able to be affected by CC.

I mean...

We have an enemy that actually limits the use of some abilities. That doesn't invalidate those abilities or make the frames irrelevant in the game.

I'm impressed that it's given you such a little hissy fit over your favourite frame... 

[Mr.Z2907]

I decided to change the topic as it was extremely late in the evening. I was just angry how Limbo got the short end of the stick with that update.

And to those that say its a skill issue, that is not the case. Having to avoid aoes from eximus units while in the rift is more of a pain that shouldn't exist with his kit. I could make the game simple and follow a simple meta of shieldgating or rolling guard but that becomes boring because everyone is doing it. I want to make it clear that I want the main topic to be that "Limbo should not have to deal with enemies outside the rift being able to damage him inside the rift."

[gamingchair1121]

I wouldn't say he's useless, just not the best choice if you have no idea what you're doing. he definitely can kill eximus easily, just use any heavy melee and the slash proc will delete it, or the chakkurr and a single headshot will one shot even steel path eximus I think. even more effective with rolling guard because of the invulnerablility.

also if you haven't invested in your operator, your operator helps a lot with things, like being able to damage enemies in the material while your limbo is in the rift, hacking consoles while in the rift, and operators even ignore all forms of entry to the rift, so you can place your 4 on a console and your operator can hack it.

also here is my main build (archon shards are hp, cast speed, armor, parkour vel, hp, and with archon shards the build has 1.3k health with just a single health mod and 7.4k ehp)

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Mr.Z2907 said:

Limbo should not have to deal with enemies outside the rift being able to damage him inside the rift.

Yeah, but then you have the opposite; if Abilities from enemies cannot affect Limbo inside the Rift, why can Abilities from inside the Rift affect Enemies?

Would you actually want to trade back to the old problem that Limbo had where putting allies into the Rift actively removed them from combat completely too?

DE have made it more consistent; Abilities hit through the Rift plane, weapons do not.

While this feels like Limbo got the short end of the stick, he really didn't. The more that I play through these changed days with the Eximus changes, the less they actually seem to affect anything.

The point of the game is still to either delete enemies within the shortest amount of time of you seeing them appear on screen, or to simply bypass them until you reach your objective. This is still completely possible with Limbo, and the only thing that isn't possible anymore is to completely AFK in the Rift. You still have to keep moving, watch for Abilities and be active to stay alive, which is the same for every other frame in the game now.

As a Zephyr player, I can't hover in place anymore and ignore ranged enemies like I could for a year after her awesome Pablo rework, I have to move to get out of the bubbles from the two Leech Eximus types, I need to roll through the Fire Blast attacks (and if I've already used my in-air roll, that's not fun). There's even a bug that lets the explosion from a Blast Eximus hit Zephyr even when she's up near the ceiling of a tile, since it climbs the 'placement' pillar of her location on the nav-mesh.

I suppose DE were just tired of players that could completely ignore enemies and wanted to enforce that some enemies would always be a threat.

It's a shake-up from what you had before, yeah.

Just keep playing, it'll matter less and less.