(Survey) Are you for (+) or against (-) an item for changing a Riven Attribute?

[Nero]

Heya Tenno!

 

Let's do a little poll: would you be for (+) or against (-) an item in the ingame market and/or acquirable through something like Archon Hunt that would allow you to change a single attribute on a Riven?

 

Further information:

• To limit its usage and highlight its rarity, consider the loot chance of legendary and a price of 250+ Platinum with a limit of 1 item per month.
• The item could be used in the mod section and only applied to maximized Rivens, since the Fusion option could then be replaced here.
• It would be conceivable that for Rivens with only 2 or 3 attributes so far, further attributes could be selected for the previously unused positions.
• In order not to make Kuva farming obsolete, you shouldn't have to decide between cycling OR using the item: The chosen attribute should be permanent.

 

Background information:

I've seen the same thing in the Riven market for years: every good offer is always snapped up by the same few players within a few minutes (thanks to their tracking apps & co) and then advertised for 3 to 10 times the price. Although I am often very sure that the so-called Riven dealers will never even use the Riven themselves. They often have multiple Rivens with the same stats. They just want to make a profit and/or keep up the price of that combination. It looks like those around 30 players control the market of thousends of players thanks to their capital and tracking. And any player who loves the gun and would _really_ want and use the Riven will have to dig deep, very deep into their pockets - or will simply never be able to afford it. You never get to see the original good deal. You don't stand a chance. And if you are willing to pay these prices, you are only supporting this system of ongoing monopoly. I'd rather like to see the money go to DE than to see the platinum keeping concentrating with so few players by using such methods.

[taiiat]

for any sort of addition to Rivens, the biggest impact would be being able to upgrade your Stat rolls closer to the max value (optionally, obviously), since we have Railjack and Lich stuff and Et Cetera that lets us do that kind of stuff now.

so that anyone could upgrade their rolls to the top end, with a bunch of Resource investment.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

I'm an advocate for Rivens outright removal so....🤣

[Yakhul]

I would be ok with this, but lets not involve platinum or mythical drop rates like legendary core.

Instead, lets use Kuva.

Say you roll an almost perfect riven, with 2 positives and one negative, which we will do, as an example, positive Multishot + Positive reload speed + negative critical chance.

Obviously this would be a hard pass, but what if you could use EXTRA kuva per roll, just to keep multishot in there, and keep rolling on the other 2.

I think that would be a better way.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

for any sort of addition to Rivens, the biggest impact would be being able to upgrade your Stat rolls closer to the max value (optionally, obviously), since we have Railjack and Lich stuff and Et Cetera that lets us do that kind of stuff now.

so that anyone could upgrade their rolls to the top end, with a bunch of Resource investment.

This is the only real addition to Rivens I could get behind. Other solutions aren't necessarily bad, but Rivens have been out functionally the same for 6+ years now, and changing them to be easier to roll certain stats would just make the mods completely pointless if I'm quite honest. To me, the only appeal Rivens have is because of their randomization, and making grades less impactful in a roll (with resource investment of course) is the only sensible thing I would like to see. Rerolling the mods polarity would be neat too.

1 hour ago, Yakhul said:

I would be ok with this, but lets not involve platinum or mythical drop rates like legendary core.

Instead, lets use Kuva.

Say you roll an almost perfect riven, with 2 positives and one negative, which we will do, as an example, positive Multishot + Positive reload speed + negative critical chance.

Obviously this would be a hard pass, but what if you could use EXTRA kuva per roll, just to keep multishot in there, and keep rolling on the other 2.

I think that would be a better way.

People wouldn't like this change unless it was cheap, thereby making rolling trivial. "Give people an inch and they will ask for a mile."

If you were to engage in adding this hypothetical mechanic with Kuva, a fair way to preserve how these randomized mods work would be costing multiple millions of Kuva per stat, at which point it would just be stupid to add such a mechanic because the people it is catering towards would complain about it because they wouldn't be spoon fed the specific stats they want.

Everyone deserves the same opportunities, but not everyone deserves the same results. Rivens are an end-game luxury modding system to push weapons one level further. If you really want specific stats and don't want to deal with the RNG, Rivens also act as the only end-game Platinum sink through trading as well. As much as I wished Rivens didn't sit in the state they are in for so long, the way they work has kept real value in trading for and owning large amounts of Platinum for players like me who have everything there is to own from the Market that is a one time purchase.

[Dis4sterD]

I'm also for a fair but free to play model to change one stat on a Riven. Would be a welcome change to the whole gatcha system of rivens. I like the Random chances in Warframe, but ways to tinker with it if you are just unlucky is always good and possible in a lot of content in this game ...  Also looking at you tauforged Archon shards in the same way btw. :D

[Kaiga]

Rivens were a mistake.

[quxier]

32 minutes ago, Voltage said:

To me, the only appeal Rivens have is because of their randomization,

So you like slot machines? I don't get it. When I roll rivens I look for certain stats. If I have weapon that e.g. boost speed but lower status (status melee) then it's detrimental for me. It's waste for me. YMMV. However you still want certain stats and don't want others.

It's not like stats could have positive outcome outside boosting your damage or reducing mods (e.g. cold + toxin riven can replace 2 mods).

40 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Everyone deserves the same opportunities, but not everyone deserves the same results.

What it even means? Without guarantying same results you get same stupid thing as "item has drop chance of 37% so you should get it in e.g. 20 tries" but some players have to do "close" to infinite runs to get items.

Everyone deserve the same opportunities but the amount of runs shouldn't be VERY different between different players. 

3 hours ago, Nero said:

Further information:

• To limit its usage and highlight its rarity, consider the loot chance of legendary and a price of 250+ Platinum with a limit of 1 item per month.

I know you want to make it so people won't create god rivens but paying 250+ plat per 1/month per 1 stat item for ONLY 1 WEAPON is ridiculous.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Nero said:

Let's do a little poll: would you be for (+) or against (-) an item in the ingame market and/or acquirable through something like Archon Hunt that would allow you to change a single attribute on a Riven?

Against.  Mainly because I don't think the additional power is healthy for the game.  Especially when all it really is is just another buff for weapon dps. 

And despite your intentions, that power would still be concentrated in  the hands of a relatively few players who roll the right rivens for the right weapons, or  just have more plat than they know what to do with.

 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Against, because it's mostly pitchfork players and/or new/casual players trying to circumvent actually playing the game. 

They don't understand modding and make no effort to be better players.  

 

[Voltage]

20 hours ago, quxier said:

So you like slot machines? I don't get it. When I roll rivens I look for certain stats. If I have weapon that e.g. boost speed but lower status (status melee) then it's detrimental for me. It's waste for me. YMMV. However you still want certain stats and don't want others.

It's not like stats could have positive outcome outside boosting your damage or reducing mods (e.g. cold + toxin riven can replace 2 mods).

What it even means? Without guarantying same results you get same stupid thing as "item has drop chance of 37% so you should get it in e.g. 20 tries" but some players have to do "close" to infinite runs to get items.

I don't like slot machines at all, but I value my time and the preservation of investment. I have bias for investing hundreds of thousands of Platinum into the Riven system through trading to own the stats I want. I know what I said is not a popular take, and the current way Rivens work aren't player friendly, but I would be pretty mad if they were suddenly trivial to earn in comparison to the way they are earned currently. If such systems were added to get the rolls you want faster, to the point of catering to the casual majority of players, I would feel heavily disrespected for my time and much like Primed Chamber which I made a post for (which I had to ultimately request a lock on because of derailing comments and an unexpected PM from DE about the post). I got heavy negative comments and mockery for being the <1% of players who actually cares for these items of investment. Primed Chamber being added to Baro was the straw that broke the camel's back for one of my long time friends who played this game, and I would have been in the same boat had I not sold my Primed Chamber years before Baro Ki'teer offered it in his wares. 99.9% of players cannot grasp what spending that many hours and resources feels like from a sentimental standpoint. My trading data (which has been out of date since October 2021) should speak for itself on my investment into Rivens, and I only own ~60 Rivens. I'm not even a real Riven trader anymore nor one of the bigger fish in the sea:

Stat locking itself is not what would bother me. If the required resources to lock 4 stats was calculated to cost about the average Kuva amount for rolling that Riven to said stats on its own, it would be fine with me. The problem is that number would be extremely expensive and be the polar opposite of what this suggested mechanic is for. People ask for stat locking or similar ideas just so they can easily have perfect Rivens in their inventory without needing to farm tens or hundreds of millions of Kuva or Platinum.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Everyone deserve the same opportunities but the amount of runs shouldn't be VERY different between different players. 

Why not? Playing a game centered around loot and drop chances doesn't make you entitled to the same rewards as everyone else. Part of what makes a game like this interesting in the first place is having an account set apart from the rest, not everyone being the same. Whether it be cosmetics or raw stats. Rivens may be an unhealthy upgrade system, but they can be ignored by most players, aren't core to the success of missions, and give players something unique to set their equipment apart in terms of builds.

Things like Invigorations are much worse for the game than Riven Mods, yet they are accepted because they don't cost any investment. Temporary week-long Range and Strength buffs are much more damaging to the multiplayer experience than one guy having a better roll for his Rubico or Kuva Bramma or whatever weapon you want to pick.

If we were still living in the days of the Scoliac 210% Range Riven meta, I would be more inclined to try and make Rivens fairer for players given their core difference in missions, but the reality is they make a marginal difference in your everyday performance, especially when any sort of added enemy level or mission difficulty results in negative feedback and powercreep for the players struggling.

[Nero]

@quxier

The original idea was a price of 1,000 platinum per attribute change with no other caps, so that the max price for Rivens would be fixed at 4,000. Talking to another player, the idea came up to adopt a monthly cap instead, as the price of 1,000 seemed too high, but it is clear that a cap is needed.

@taiiat

My English isn't very good, but I think what you're talking about is something I also wanted to do a little survey on: Would you be for or against a Valence Fusion at Rivens? This would also have the positive side effect that the current exuberance of Rivens would dissolve. And yes, I would welcome such a possibility to increase an attribute's value.

 

In general, of course, I understand that binding an attribute changing item to Platinum triggers thoughts towards Pay To Win. But if there are such items one day, then it needs strong limits and it should also benefit DE. And I couldn't think of a better solution until now.

Let me also say, people like me paid 3k, 4k, 5k and more for Rivens, whereby we only made the rich richer and thus indirectly promoted that a normal player is unlikely to ever get a really good Riven for his or her favorite weapon. Although he or she could easily afford such a Riven if it were at the original price. And that's what actually motivates me to do this survey here. It could also be implemented with other options. For example, by only being able to buy 1 Riven per week. Or if Rivens simply dissolve after 30 days if they are not used in a weapon. I assume, however, that this would be viewed even more critically.

[Voltage]

20 hours ago, Nero said:

Let me also say, people like me paid 3k, 4k, 5k and more for Rivens, whereby we only made the rich richer and thus indirectly promoted that a normal player is unlikely to ever get a really good Riven for his or her favorite weapon. Although he or she could easily afford such a Riven if it were at the original price. And that's what actually motivates me to do this survey here. It could also be implemented with other options. For example, by only being able to buy 1 Riven per week. Or if Rivens simply dissolve after 30 days if they are not used in a weapon. I assume, however, that this would be viewed even more critically.

Every trading whale started out as a normal player at one point too. There's nothing stopping literally anyone from saying "hey, I love the Mutalist Cernos, so I will go farm for 350, 1000, 4000, etc. Platinum to have this very specific Riven for it".

Catering to hoarding instead of the original limited Riven ownership doesn't help this situation, because when players have access to 180 slots, many feel entitled to 180 Rivens. 

Artificially limiting how efficient a player can be with their inventory doesn't make the system better. Is the goal with these ideas just to try and bridge the gap between the invested Riven owner and the player who feels they should have good Rivens without putting in the necessary investment?

[ReddyDisco]

Stat locking one of the rng stats would be an improvement, i hate how random the riven system is. you can roll a thousand times and not get what you want, absolute waste of time and resources.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is the only real addition to Rivens I could get behind. Other solutions aren't necessarily bad, but Rivens have been out functionally the same for 6+ years now, and changing them to be easier to roll certain stats would just make the mods completely pointless if I'm quite honest. To me, the only appeal Rivens have is because of their randomization, and making grades less impactful in a roll (with resource investment of course) is the only sensible thing I would like to see. Rerolling the mods polarity would be neat too.

it would also help shave the top off of the prices of the best Rivens, which are unreasonably priced and don't get Traded around often enough. economy of scale says the game would make more Revenue if 'peak Rivens' were Traded more often, but for more reasonable pricing.

so it's helpful for the Player while also should drive increased Revenue to. plus gives the Player more Content / more to do (as i assume the Resource investment to push a Riven up to the peak rolls would be quite costly).

 

without, as you mention, defeating the purpose of Rivens to begin with, that being random Stats. if you want a different set of Stats on your Riven, you best get to rolling it.
@Nero this all applies to you too i suppose.

 

1 hour ago, quxier said:

So you like slot machines? I don't get it. When I roll rivens I look for certain stats.

everyone wants certain Stats, but it's in the games' best interests to try to not give them to you. the sooner that the Player gets the exact Stats they're looking for, the sooner they'll Logout and stop either spending on the game or boosting its Playerbase metrics.

the Stats being random and thusly in general taking a while to get what you want, is basically the entirety of endgame Content. the only reason to login other than to fill a few Syndicates with daily cap to Buy a few Relics or whatever, in order to keep up with the game in the future. 

aside from that hand picking an exact result from something random defeats the purpose of something being random. it's just not random, at that point.

[Voltage]

51 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it would also help shave the top off of the prices of the best Rivens, which are unreasonably priced and don't get Traded around often enough. economy of scale says the game would make more Revenue if 'peak Rivens' were Traded more often, but for more reasonable pricing.

so it's helpful for the Player while also should drive increased Revenue to. plus gives the Player more Content / more to do (as i assume the Resource investment to push a Riven up to the peak rolls would be quite costly).

Nah, the prices would be basically unaffected. If you want to drive prices down, you need to change the way Riven trading works so that players can only trade for weapons when they reach a much higher Mastery Rank and have invested in the weapon they are buying the Riven for or something to prevent full time traders/alts who aren't even playing Warframe and just grinding Credits/Platinum.

You'd also need to tackle the bot assistant meta that plagues Riven trading for years now that makes it completely unappealing to trade on both major websites at the high end, especially since some features on the public bots are paywalled by the bot devs (like an artificial delay on posting new listings for free members) and private bots exist as well. This is why I got out of the scene myself. It used to be pretty fun and cool to get snipes, but now it's just completely unenjoyable. I'm also not exactly sure if it's still a thing, but I believe there's still bots out there that intercept the in-game trade chat.

[taiiat]

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Nah, the prices would be basically unaffected.

i don't think they would be unaffected. it would let anyone that's late into the game push Rolls they get up to the peak. it'll for sure add more god rolls to the market, which inevitably pushes the Trade pricing down.

i'm not trying to crash the market or anything, just knock the Numbers down some so that Plat moves around more often. i wouldn't even want to crash it, going that far would reduce Revenue to the game too. 

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

something to prevent full time traders/alts who aren't even playing Warframe and just grinding Credits/Platinum.
You'd also need to tackle the bot assistant meta

i don't think those are really problems as far as the Company is concerned - if they're moving Plat around, they're generating Revenue. and being logged in boosts metrics.
if anything it'd technically "make them worse", shaving down the top end prices for Rivens will move Plat more often.

[Voltage]

Just now, taiiat said:

i don't think they would be unaffected. it would let anyone that's late into the game push Rolls they get up to the peak. it'll for sure add more god rolls to the market, which inevitably pushes the Trade pricing down.

i'm not trying to crash the market or anything, just knock the Numbers down some so that Plat moves around more often. i wouldn't even want to crash it, going that far would reduce Revenue to the game too. 

I don't think grades make much of an impact, maybe on very specific Rivens, but in general I usually notice unrolled versions of the good stats selling better. Maybe on a handful of Rivens it knocks down the price a bit, which is fine.

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't think those are really problems as far as the Company is concerned - if they're moving Plat around, they're generating Revenue. and being logged in boosts metrics.
if anything it'd technically "make them worse", shaving down the top end prices for Rivens will move Plat more often.

I don't think top end Rivens will move around any more or less at any higher or lower prices if the high end of Riven trading is heavily assisted by private or paywalled automated tools to watch multiple trade chats across multiple languages (which abuses currency differences to an extent) and both Riven.Market and Warframe.Market listings.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Sounds like this would introduce a widespread power-creep problem.

ATM, being ultra rare, and traded for "unreasonable" amounts keeps Rivens in check.

 

[Merrcenary]

9 часов назад, Nero сказал:

would you be for (+) or against (-) an item in the ingame market and/or acquirable through something like Archon Hunt that would allow you to change a single attribute on a Riven?

obviously against for any sort of items/mechanics just to get eazy peazy god roll rivens

[PollexMessier]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I'm an advocate for Rivens outright removal so....🤣

8 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Rivens were a mistake.

Based

[L3512]

5 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Sounds like this would introduce a widespread power-creep problem.

ATM, being ultra rare, and traded for "unreasonable" amounts keeps Rivens in check.

 

So your saying that the only way to keep powercreep in check is a system that can by bypassed by luck or deep pockets?

How is that an acceptable mechanic?

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

2 minutes ago, L3512 said:

So your saying that the only way to keep powercreep in check is a system that can by bypassed by luck or deep pockets?

How is that an acceptable mechanic?

Acceptable?

its a Core Tenet of Warframe

you can either buy power, (for example Prime Access Packs) or get lucky (Relic Openings)

every new content update or access, introduces a little more power creep to drive more purchases.

 

[Nero]

Heya,

let me try to quantify the previous answers or opinions. Correct me if I got your vote wrong. I count so far ...

4x for

Spoiler

Nero, Yakhul, Dis4asterD, ReddyDisco

8x against

Spoiler

taiiat, Cram Duahcim, Voltage, Tiltskillet, Madurai Prime, haphazardl ynamed, Merrcenary, PollexMessier

2x neither nor resp. not assignable

Spoiler

Kaiga, quxier

 

@taiiat

vor 8 Stunden schrieb taiiat:

without, as you mention, defeating the purpose of Rivens to begin with, that being random Stats. if you want a different set of Stats on your Riven, you best get to rolling it.
@Nero this all applies to you too i suppose.

I'm not sure if you want an answer from me? Or what you want to know? I'll just write a few facts.

Yes, I belong to the Kuva Junkies, I probably invested an average of 100k+ Kuva per day in Rolls in 2022.

Yes, I like the random thing about Riven rolling, I just dislike the market monopoly and the preventing of the possibility for regular players to cheaply acquire the Rivens of their favorite weapon.

Yes, I belong to the Riven collectors and bought some very expensive Rivens over time.

Yes, I belonged to the Riven dealers but I have found that Riven flipping only benefits me and less than 0.01% of the player base, while making the game experience worse for the other 99.9%.

Yes, I have also resold Rivens, but usually for the same price as I bought them. And very often I've seen my own Rivens back in the market later, for three times the price or more. A few Examples of what I mean:

• Hek, crit chance, crit damage, multishot, -max ammo, bought for 800, sold for 850, back in market for around 4,000.
• Shedu, crit chance, crit damage, multishot, -zoom, bought for 2,400, sold for 2,100, back in market for around 5,000.
• Fulmin, crit chance, multishot, electric, +recoil, self-rolled, sold for 250, back in market for around 850.
• Phantasma, crit damage, multishot, damage, -impact, self-rolled, sold for 400, back in market for around 2,500.

And the same with a lot of melee Rivens since I never use melee myself. And I've seen the same thing over the years with dozens, probably hundreds, of Rivens that came onto the market cheaply and were soon re-advertised by Riven dealers.

[L3512]

Just now, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Acceptable?

its a Core Tenet of Warframe

you can either buy power, (for example Prime Access Packs) or get lucky (Relic Openings)

every new content update or access, introduces a little more power creep to drive more purchases.

Unlike Primes or new updates, Rivens can offer significant and unique bonuses. Rivens are unique to every players and can range from not worth a mod slot to the single largest damage increase per single mod.

You talk about Riven RNG as a method for gate keeping powercreep but we already have players wondering off the reservation due to pure luck or spending a solid chunk of Plat.

Why is this powercreep that you propose is bad, good for some players and not others?