Kullervo subsume choices

[Leqesai]

Just a quick thread to see what you guys are doing with kullervo when it comes to subsumed abilities.

Personally I have a build with gloom replacing his 3 and it works fairly well. I also have one with nourish but nourish seems kind of counter synergistic since the thorns doesn't apply while is has overguard, and viral is easily applied with weaponry. 

Anyway, what have you guys tried?

[FishMcCool]

For a start, I'm shocked that you helminthed over anything else than the 2...

 

That said, I tried a few things:

- Gloom is Gloom. It's stupidly strong like on every other frame. But it's boring and with melee in mind, I kinda prefer mobs to run in fast rather than be static and spread out.

- Larva followed by 1 was ok, but not as fun as I thought, since ultimately 3-1 or 4-3 does the same job for mass aoe.

- Blood Altar is meh, but paired with Venka Prime, it turns you into a funny variant of Garuda.

- Spellbind gives on-demand status cleanse/immunity, applies to nearby squadmates, and comes with a bit of cc should it be needed.

 

I run with Spellbind at the moment, since I like status cleanse and don't have room for rolling guard. I'm a bit low on duration so the usual buffs (Roar, Nourish, Eclipse) are annoying to maintain, but I guess they'd be valid options for short spikes or with enough red shards. I do like amber shards on Kullervo though, casting speed helps his 3/4, and parkour is a lot faster than using his 1 to teleport.

[Pakaku]

If Pillage could generate shields for him, I'd probably put that over his overguard ability. And I'd probably go for Energized Munitions if the Rauta wasn't already so fast at reloading.

Since those options are out, I'm not really sure. Something that can strip armour never hurts, like Ember's ability, or even Pillage without the shields. I'm not really impressed with cheesy overused abilities like Gloom or Gauss's ability, I want something a little more creative than that.

[AegidiusF]

As Kullervo is nice for melee, I think Silence, with the augment, would be nice to grant the +700% stealth damage on melee hit. It must synergize very well with Kullervo's 1st and both buffs together seems crazy. The problem is that range must not be too big and this is not nice for his 4th and 3rd.

But I would replace Kullervo's 2nd, not his 3rd.

[Leqesai]

10 minutes ago, FishMcCool said:

For a start, I'm shocked that you helminthed over anything else than the 2...

 

That said, I tried a few things:

- Gloom is Gloom. It's stupidly strong like on every other frame. But it's boring and with melee in mind, I kinda prefer mobs to run in fast rather than be static and spread out.

- Larva followed by 1 was ok, but not as fun as I thought, since ultimately 3-1 or 4-3 does the same job for mass aoe.

- Blood Altar is meh, but paired with Venka Prime, it turns you into a funny variant of Garuda.

- Spellbind gives on-demand status cleanse/immunity, applies to nearby squadmates, and comes with a bit of cc should it be needed.

 

I run with Spellbind at the moment, since I like status cleanse and don't have room for rolling guard. I'm a bit low on duration so the usual buffs (Roar, Nourish, Eclipse) are annoying to maintain, but I guess they'd be valid options for short spikes or with enough red shards. I do like amber shards on Kullervo though, casting speed helps his 3/4, and parkour is a lot faster than using his 1 to teleport.

Yeah it was a hard choice to pick the 3 over the 2 but at the end of the day with my setup the 3 hasn't been that useful with how I use the 1 and 4. I am also a little pensive on dumping it due to the expected buff it is going to get in the echoes of duviri patch. 

The 1 paired with a decent melee weapon is pretty much all the damage you'd ever need.

 

[Leqesai]

7 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

If Pillage could generate shields for him, I'd probably put that over his overguard ability. And I'd probably go for Energized Munitions if the Rauta wasn't already so fast at reloading.

Since those options are out, I'm not really sure. Something that can strip armour never hurts, like Ember's ability, or even Pillage without the shields. I'm not really impressed with cheesy overused abilities like Gloom or Gauss's ability, I want something a little more creative than that.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing about yet again falling back onto Gloom. But the fact is, immense slow paired with lifestyle is just super useful. 

I was wondering if fireblast might be good on him. Tharos strike might be a better armor strip though. I was torn between the two.

The caliban ability also looks pretty useful since it would have synergy with his whole kit. A bit less useful vs armor but better against shields and health.

5 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

As Kullervo is nice for melee, I think Silence, with the augment, would be nice to grant the +700% stealth damage on melee hit. It must synergize very well with Kullervo's 1st and both buffs together seems crazy. The problem is that range must not be too big and this is not nice for his 4th and 3rd.

But I would replace Kullervo's 2nd, not his 3rd.

Is the 700% stealth damage applied on the first melee hit or is it only finisher damage?

[FishMcCool]

Armour strip is always nice, but with 4 forcing proc slashes (that magically multiply by the number of foes with 3) and some weapon classes forcing massive slash procs on heavy attacks such as nikanas (two-handed for the nice wide arc and to avoid the silly run forward), I didn't find it required apart from things like demolysts and for that I just switch to Unairu.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 11 minutes, Leqesai a dit :

Is the 700% stealth damage applied on the first melee hit or is it only finisher damage?

It's on the first melee hit. In fact Savage Silence applies the stealth damage multiplier (+700%) for melee hits on the staggered targets.

For the finisher damage, it's the augment mod multiplier that will be applied.

This comes from the fact that stealth damage multipliers applies to every enemy that is opened to front/back finishers and that's why it works with Savage Silence.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It's on the first melee hit. In fact Savage Silence applies the stealth damage multiplier (+700%) for melee hits on the staggered targets.

For the finisher damage, it's the augment mod multiplier that will be applied.

This comes from the fact that stealth damage multipliers applies to every enemy that is opened to front/back finishers and that's why it works with Savage Silence.

That makes sense. Been a long time since I actively used silence with melee multipliers in mind. It's easily my most used subsume though simply because it shuts down eximus units. It's really hard to not use silence because eximus abilities are so darn annoying now.

11 minutes ago, FishMcCool said:

Armour strip is always nice, but with 4 forcing proc slashes (that magically multiply by the number of foes with 3) and some weapon classes forcing massive slash procs on heavy attacks such as nikanas (two-handed for the nice wide arc and to avoid the silly run forward), I didn't find it required apart from things like demolysts and for that I just switch to Unairu.

Thats a good point.

[0_The_F00l]

I have used kullervo quite a bit and I have settled on the vanilla kit for now as I like it and doesn't feel that it's lacking anything per se ,

But in my experimentation I have found the following to be very useful.

1) Lycaths hunt - pair with health conversion and equilibrium and we got a very effective health tank that can spam (almost) non stop.

2) Gloom works too , but then you need to focus on the energy economy quite a bit , which takes away from his berserker like quality.

3) fracturing blast - same as lycaths hunt ,

4) Tharos strike/terrify - not bad , but i have yet to encounter enemies that will stay alive long enough to justify the cast time of a different ability rather than just attacking, i recommend Tharos strike as it also heals and is front facing just like most of his abilities.

Bonus :

being a health tank , kullervo does very well with companions (2k Armor and 5k health average) and I am enjoying using hounds with the precept that steals eximus auras. It can be very interesting.

p.s.

I either replace his 2 or his 4 with a subsume , if the ability also has some healing I replace his 2 , if it has nothing defensive I replace his 4. To be fair any melee with life strike can replace his 2.

Edited July 6, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[Circle_of_Psi]

54 minutes ago, FishMcCool said:

For a start, I'm shocked that you helminthed over anything else than the 2.

We're all subject to our own opinions but I've kept his 2nd in since it's still strong in its own right, it's just the Overguard that is the issue, the power itself isn't bad, it still heals a good chunk of your HP (if modded correctly) and it's gonna get "Fixed" (rather the Overguard, not the power itself).

The power I have subsumed over his is 4th, it's the weakest of the Kit, at least for me, it's a power that sits in one spot and requires you to make a chokepoint in order to make it work correctly, I really hate powers that are stuck in one place and don't move with you (AKA: Stationery Powers).

The power I've replaced his 4th with is Shooting Gallery as it's a very underrated power, there is an entire video about it by "Kyaii" if you are interested but the short version of it is:  The power acts like a buffer between the time the enemies can shoot you and you being able to kill them while active (over and over). If you combo it with Muzzle Flash, you have another CC on top of what you already have. (As long as you have at alteast a single weapon to trigger the shot).

 

 If you are Interested in the build I have, I can show it if you like!

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Pakaku said:

If Pillage could generate shields for him, I'd probably put that over his overguard ability. And I'd probably go for Energized Munitions if the Rauta wasn't already so fast at reloading.

Same for Harrow's. It sadly only CC enemies (not all - eximus & co).

55 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I was wondering if fireblast might be good on him. Tharos strike might be a better armor strip though. I was torn between the two.

Fireblast is capped at 75% so it's not the greatest. Plus it's little bit slow - if you armor striping mostly in front of you then Thanos strike would be better imho. It's nice for my Xaku afk style.

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

have used kullervo quite a bit and I have settled on the vanilla kit for now as I like it and doesn't feel that it's lacking anything per se ,

But in my experimentation I have found the following to be very useful.

1) Lycaths hunt - pair with health conversion and equilibrium and we got a very effective health tank that can spam (almost) non stop.

3) fracturing blast - same as lycaths hunt ,

Are they useful? One is capped at 50% and cannot be raised. 2nd one is nerfed at 25% (hp) and 10% energy. I've tried Lycant's hunt on Citrine and I've not seen ANY difference. I think it's better to put things like Nourish (+100% damage - 1 viral stack; 2x, at base, energy multiplier).

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

 

Anyway, what have you guys tried?

I've yet to try Xaku's void proc. It might have good synergy with 4th (some more damage, much more combo), 3rd (much more damage). I doubt it will work but I need to test it (sorry).

[FishMcCool]

13 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

We're all subject to our own opinions but I've kept his 2nd in since it's still strong in its own right, it's just the Overguard that is the issue, the power itself isn't bad, it still heals a good chunk of your HP (if modded correctly) and it's gonna get "Fixed" (rather the Overguard, not the power itself).

The power I have subsumed over his is 4th, it's the weakest of the Kit, at least for me, it's a power that sits in one spot and requires you to make a chokepoint in order to make it work correctly, I really hate powers that are stuck in one place and don't move with you (AKA: Stationery Powers).

Yeah, fair enough. Here I just find the 2 healing not required (I slotted Life Strike on the Livia, so health is constantly topped up) and overguard in the little time it stays up is counterproductive since it prevents Adrenaline energy buildup. But while I like the 4, 4-3 and 3-1 both work for aoe so...

Never paid much attention to Shooting Gallery, I'll take a look at it, though likely for other frames as I run low duration on this one.

[0_The_F00l]

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

Are they useful? One is capped at 50% and cannot be raised. 2nd one is nerfed at 25% (hp) and 10% energy. I've tried Lycant's hunt on Citrine and I've not seen ANY difference. I think it's better to put things like Nourish (+100% damage - 1 viral stack; 2x, at base, energy multiplier).

They can be very useful in the right loadout and enemy density.

Lycaths hunt can be a "cast and forget " ability if you have a primer weapon that can give you enough status effects. But if you can't , then it can be a little costly to cast each time. And as I said , pair with effects that take advantage of health orbs ( blessing , health conversion , equilibrium) to add even more qol and replace any energy mods/arcanes/shards. I had to recast rather frequently as most enemies were dead before they got enough procs :P but rarely faced energy problems. The health conversion .... Wasn't as effective unfortunately , as you would usually run on 2 stacks as you keep getting damage to health.

Fracturing blast works a little weirdly on him , it doesn't have the same range as his curse but causes enemies to be damaged atleast a bit , so it's 2 guaranteed procs on some enemies for CO, it's quick and cheap and doesn't impede movement.

Both work best in higher enemy density.

 

[SneakyErvin]

Since I use him for ranged I'm swapping his #1 for breach surge or nourish. Breach Surge is just over the top bonkers together with his #3.

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

As Kullervo is nice for melee, I think Silence, with the augment, would be nice to grant the +700% stealth damage on melee hit. It must synergize very well with Kullervo's 1st and both buffs together seems crazy. The problem is that range must not be too big and this is not nice for his 4th and 3rd.

But I would replace Kullervo's 2nd, not his 3rd.

Only works if you attack enemies that dont have LoS to you and the augment wont increase that damage since it isnt the same as a stealth attack finisher, which is what the augment applies to.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 33 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Only works if you attack enemies that dont have LoS to you and the augment wont increase that damage since it isnt the same as a stealth attack finisher, which is what the augment applies to.

It only works on the stagger phase, where there is no line of sight anyway.

The augment itself only increases the finisher damage, but the consequence of opening enemies to front/back finishers is that, while they are opened to this kind of finishers (the stagger phase), the stealth damage multiplier will apply to melee hits (not the same as stealth finisher). It's a classic Melee-Banshee gameplay with low range and Savage Silence being used not for the finishers, but to increase the melee hit on staggered enemies.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Hm... I personally am not planning to subsume anything at the moment, since despite his shortcomings in terms of survival I'm still having a good time. And I do kinda like his entire kit.

Now as for possible subsumes I reaches the same conclusion most people have - if any of his abilities needs to go it's his 2. Maybe his 1 on some very specific conditions and builds, perhaps - but it's still a much better ability than his 2 imho.

So, my Kullervo has a pretty high range, a bit of efficiency, a good chunk of strenght and some duration. Gloom comes to mind instantly. Other armor/shield strip abilities come to mind, even though, sadly, Pillage does not provide shields to Kullervo, which instantly makes it much less desirable. Maybe even Garuda's Blood Altar, Grendel's Nourish, and other similar stuff. In his case there are many possibilities depending on the player's endgoal and desired playstyle.

I like Kullervo. I think he could use a bit of a buff in some areas, but he's not bad either.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It only works on the stagger phase, where there is no line of sight anyway.

The augment itself only increases the finisher damage, but the consequence of opening enemies to front/back finishers is that, while they are opened to this kind of finishers (the stagger phase), the stealth damage multiplier will apply to melee hits (not the same as stealth finisher). It's a classic Melee-Banshee gameplay with low range and Savage Silence being used not for the finishers, but to increase the melee hit on staggered enemies.

The stagger itself isnt enough. With Kullervo's #1 you might not have time to let silence make the enemy unalerted unless it was already in that state, and I'm not sure how well Kullervo's #1 accounts for distance to enemies, or if you happen to bump into them as you attack, at which point the multiplier is also lost. Savage Silence will do nothing in either case, since what you perform isnt a finisher which the stealth multiplier in this case is seperate from.

To benefit from Savage Silence you must engage in an actual finisher with animation and all. Just as if you place radial blind or silence on Loki/Ivara/Ash, you will only get the 700% bonus for being stealthed/unalerted, but never the augment bonus unless you perform an actual finisher i.e ground, standing front/back or stealth.

There are stealth finishers and there is stealth damage multiplier, not to be confused with eachother.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 2 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

The stagger itself isnt enough. With Kullervo's #1 you might not have time to let silence make the enemy unalerted unless it was already in that state, and I'm not sure how well Kullervo's #1 accounts for distance to enemies, or if you happen to bump into them as you attack, at which point the multiplier is also lost. Savage Silence will do nothing in either case, since what you perform isnt a finisher which the stealth multiplier in this case is seperate from.

To benefit from Savage Silence you must engage in an actual finisher with animation and all. Just as if you place radial blind or silence on Loki/Ivara/Ash, you will only get the 700% bonus for being stealthed/unalerted, but never the augment bonus unless you perform an actual finisher i.e ground, standing front/back or stealth.

There are stealth finishers and there is stealth damage multiplier, not to be confused with eachother.

There are two different things with Savage Silence : one is the augment damage bonus itself and the other is a feature that makes the Stealth damage multiplier apply (it's not the stealth finisher multiplier). This feature is very well documented (creators videos and Wiki) and I used it a lot with my Banshee.

Citation

Standard melee attacks are affected by a +700% stealth damage bonus when attacking enemies that are unalerted, made vulnerable to front/back finishers by a stun, or that are otherwise unable to detect the attacking player due to being blinded or under the effect of  Banshee's  Silence, as well as if the player is cloaked by an ability (e.g.  Invisibility). This damage increase changes the color of regular damage pop-ups from white to yellow (similar to critical hits).

(from the Wiki Stealth page, the underline is from myself)

And that's because the stealth damage multiplier (+700%) will be applied whenever an enemy is opened to a front/back finisher : the game considers it as the same situation as an unalerted enemy (even if the enemy was alerted before). This is why the +700% applies (and was always applied) to a melee hit (not finishers) when an enemy was melee hit while under the stagger phase of Savage Silence (this won't work for Silence without the augment mod, as it doesn't open to front/back finishers).

With Kullervo, it can work this way : Savage Silence with no more than 8m range, cast Kullervo's 1st while more than 8m from the enemy and when teleported to the enemy for the heavy hit, the stagger of Savage Silence will trigger and this will apply the +700% damage bonus (in theory, I still haven't tested this). The problem with this, as I've said before, is that it requires a low range Silence and it's a bad thing for Kullervo's 3rd and 4th.

[FishMcCool]

Savage Silence is a lot of fun, but I have yet to find a foe that doesn't die to the 1 from my Tenet Livia and isn't immune to finishers. Basically, if finishers work on it, you don't need them, and if you need them, they're not allowed...

[Joezone619]

Limbo, easy teleportation, and a surprisingly effective replacement for rift torrent.

[Leqesai]

3 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Limbo, easy teleportation, and a surprisingly effective replacement for rift torrent.

What?

You read this topic right?

This is a topic about subsume to use on kullervo, not which frames would benefit from kullervos subsume...

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Leqesai

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And that's because the stealth damage multiplier (+700%) will be applied whenever an enemy is opened to a front/back finisher : the game considers it as the same situation as an unalerted enemy (even if the enemy was alerted before). This is why the +700% applies (and was always applied) to a melee hit (not finishers) when an enemy was melee hit while under the stagger phase of Savage Silence (this won't work for Silence without the augment mod, as it doesn't open to front/back finishers).

I completely forgot that regular Silence doesnt open up enemies to finishers and that it is a hidden mechanic in the augment. Still as you say, likely not worth it since low range kinda kills Kullervo's kit.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

I put Tesla Nervos over his 4. Electric procs crowd control plus Archon Stretch for energy regen. I got Kullervo running Fat Range and Big Strength, with Duration like, 120 or 70 or something, kinda low, don't remember. Kullervo's not fully modded yet, still got experiments to run. Tesla Bank might be an option if I don't use Quick Thinking 

[Vaml77]

His kit is already good...I only use gloom to face lichs that are very fast and annoying with teleport. In normal game mode I don't feel the need to replace his abilities. It's a warframe essentially that uses teleport to kill.