Warframe is a tragedy of wasted potential

[Genitive]

2 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

Bro, I wish they #*!%ing did that. I wish they would just nuke most of the star chart, have a fraction of the nodes, make most missions function like bounties (multiple tiers, bonus objectives, item drop on tier completion), maybe bring back of a bit of the objective layering that the old mission system in closed beta had, and update the current Mission sandbox.

They don't even need to do all that, but can rework nightmare and syndicate missions to achieve a similar effect.

[TheGodofWiFi]

IMO Warframe is not supposed to be a challenge. Its one of those games that is pure power-fantasy, kind of like Saints Row 3 or Kingdoms of Amalur. And do you know what; that's fine. I like that some games don't have kind of challenge as they are basically relaxing.

If I want a challenge, I'll turn off Warframe and play a game like Returnal or a Soulsborne game. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[SovietSilviu]

2 hours ago, awave said:

 

Why don't you have Paracesis?

 

cause i dont actualy needed, i mean you do 10 headshots and after you just press click and clear the screen, when i get bored im taking my umbra and play with a build maxed around exalted blade, or my loki prime and execute how many bastards i can, but you get bored nontheles, same missions over and over, same enemies over and over, same bugged grind over and over

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I feel some gamers are also a tragedy of wasted potential.

[Nekomian]

9 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

There's a few that were just one & dones (Assault & Hijack) & a few that probably need updates or combining (Capture & Defection). But honestly I don't see that happening. I'm probably one of the few players who like Spy, Railjack and fewer who would want Scarlett Spear to come back as some kind of Seasonal Event like Plague Star (even this event rotation has been spotty at best).

Honestly, I'd love if they did this, to give a refresh to older mission types and show them some love, as well as add some additional layer or challenge to them too (instead of it just being go to point A or B, wait and protect it, repeat). Sort of related, I like Spy missions too but oh my god some of them are annoying, like the gas city tileset with giant spinning grid lasers always seems to clip me from some random angle (even when I'm standing flush against a wall to prevent this). Meanwhile I enjoy the Lua ones a lot, despite a lot of people hating how long they can get; they've got long paths and puzzles in them that feel like something different from just "do parazon hack at points and run to terminals".

Thinking more on it, I really miss how older warframe used to have a ton of events and operations throughout the years; I get that people will absolutely scream "fomo! time gates!" loudly for it, but it always got me engaged with the content to help build a relay, or take down the orphix threats, or do something new for unique rewards. I'd love to see more events (and possibly raids / trials, but I never got to participate in one of those at the time) that are like this on some regular basis, it feels like we just don't have them anymore outside of the usual razorback armada / fomorian that pose no actual threat. That said, some of the events (dog days) would definitely need a lot more love shown to them and a more interesting gameplay loop that doesn't make players repeat the same thing for like 4 hours.

[Silligoose]

17 hours ago, InTheFlesh00 said:

Just saying how I feel here, I know people enjoy this game and there are lots of good things, and I really like most of what's offered here too, just feel it's unenjoyable as is...

 

This game could be so good, but as it is there is 0 incentive to play, grind, unlock, level up, and get better myself as there is no long term challenge to the game of any perceivable kind, other than how much time and money you can spend on the game, which is not an end goal in itself for me...  Grind is good - perfect really - but I want to grind to do something with it...which currently there is nothing...  Warframe has 0 challenge!  (Blows my mind how this is a thing.)  So many cool mechanics, characters, weapons, cosmetics, everything else is so cool, but the combat is completely empty; enemies are so weak they crumble while posing 0 threat, death is incredibly easy to avoid (feels almost impossible to encounter sometimes), and even when you die it's so forgiving...literally nothing matters!

 

God I wish this game posed us a challenge, to give us something to actually do with all the cool things it has.  Simply adding challenging, well balanced, content would be such a game changer, prompting thoughtful application of the tools we have and seeing them working to their full limits...without it, in my opinion, playing this feels completely pointless, and completely not fun.  

(As an aside I recognize that adding things on the enemy/content side wouldn't be a fix on it's own but what I'm suggesting would require a rebalancing across most aspects of the game, however I think the current game's state is complete waste as is, so while that is drastic I still hold out hope for it or something like it, because of how much potential is wasted here imo.)

 

Again I know plenty of people play this game and more power to you I'm not criticizing enjoying it, I just really wish I had any reason to play it myself, but for these reasons don't have that.  Just throwing my opinion into the void on the off chance that challenge is ever added into this game so I can play it.

Agreed.

I am one the players that tend to self-nerf, or experiment with some meme builds (though this is a more fleeting form of entertainment). I'm currently sitting on around 40 Orokin Catalysts and 200+ Forma, but despite enjoying many of the weapons on offer, I don't upgrade them to unleash their full potential, because not only is it not needed, but it also actually makes using them less fun and the game more boring. 

Warframe could be so much better and retention so much higher if DE implemented a decently balanced endgame that maintains a lot of the depth the game has at earlier stages of progression. An endgame that, as with many other progression-styled games, can cater to the vast spectrum players that enjoy different levels of challenge, so that players actually have a tangible reason to build towards endgame power. Many, many people have been disappointed to learn that they've been building to an endgame climax that just doesn't exist. 

Unfortunately I do not see DE implementing a decent endgame any time soon: They rarely attempt anything towards that end and when they do, it is done extremely poorly and erodes much of the depth that makes this game so good, by invalidating various mechanics, eg Overguard, Damage Attenuation, "immune to almost everything" Archons in Archon Hunts.

[RafMatador22]

10 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

10 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

 Most people can't even handle the newer Spy vaults and a few Rescue puzzles. And don't get me started on Railjack Co-Op.

 

 

The puzzles in this game are not very intuitive, I don't know how to do the halls of the moon, it's very disheartening.

[Veridian]

I'll be damned if this isn't the next low effort rage bate by a shill mr3 acc, but I'll bite.

Off the top of my head, here are some examples of content releases that were met with plenty of whining about how unfair, badly designed or any other excuse players use to cope that they can't handle said content: Arbitrations, SP, Liches, Railjack, TNW (really?), heck for the first month there was so much yammering about how unfairly difficult OV was, now it's the circuit.

Also, like it or not, there has to be balance since the entire player base is on a very wide spectrum power-wise.

Your 0 incentive point, however, is 100% correct.

There is 0 incentive to play anything. Ever. There's 0 incentive to exist, while we are at it.

I play it because it's enjoyable and I don't have to sweat and rage for 40 minutes at my teammates incompetence in some online PvP game, that's my incentive.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Veridian

[-AncientWarrior-]

lol, and DE sits back and laughs at these posts .. "great our chaos theory is working" .. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

lol, and DE sits back and laughs at these posts .. "great our chaos theory is working" .. 

That explains more about you, that you think game companies punish people for no reason except for sociopathy instead of legitimately having problems they're trying to fix.

[PR1D3]

17 hours ago, Pakaku said:

What do you expect to do when there will never be end-game? But hey, it's not my job to stop you from making yourself miserable.

There will never be one cause DE wants to make everyone 'happy' even if it means knee capping themselves on their capabilities. And lol, I'm miserable? Honestly just tired of seeing low iq copypasta. This isn't the first game I played where large chunks of the player base lead the devs into suicide or general mediocrity and it will not be the last one.

[Pakaku]

24 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

There will never be one cause DE wants to make everyone 'happy' even if it means knee capping themselves on their capabilities. And lol, I'm miserable? Honestly just tired of seeing low iq copypasta. This isn't the first game I played where large chunks of the player base lead the devs into suicide or general mediocrity and it will not be the last one.

You seem to be mistaking "sucking up to the devs" with "accepting the reality that an end-game will never be in the devs' plans". Because how many years has it been that the devs have had time to add an end-game, yet it's never happened? Trust me when I say I would be very pleasantly surprised if the devs made an honest attempt at something like that.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Pakaku

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Pakaku said:

You seem to be mistaking "sucking up to the devs" with "accepting the reality that an end-game will never be in the devs' plans". Because how many years has it been that the devs have had time to add an end-game, yet it's never happened? Trust me when I say I would be very pleasantly surprised if the devs made an honest attempt at something like that.

Ok but they've tried a bunch of times to flesh out the endgame. They've been making attempts at it pretty much since there's been a Warframe.

Quote

- New End-Game System - the Dark Sectors! The first of the end-game projects to ship, the Dark Sectors were an area of space once inhabited, cut off, that players can reconnect with by building Solar Rails! Building Solar Rails allows for expansion and dominance into the Dark Sectors of the Solar System.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/209324-update-13-dark-sectors/

Quote

Sortie Missions are difficult endgame Missions for experienced Tenno that can be completed alone or with a group.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/568455-update-18-the-second-dream/

Quote

t is time to take on a new challenge. The Origin System is ever-changing. Our enemies grow more powerful - only the Tenno with true mastery of their Arsenal will overcome what awaits us.
...
If you are not ready for this challenge, fear not, it’s not going anywhere. One day you may be prepared to take The Steel Path.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1205630-the-steel-path-update-2810/

They aren't often very successful, but it's undeniable that DE is constantly trying to create endgame content even if they're sometimes unwilling to call it that. It's not that they don't want to, or aren't trying to. It's that they can't as long as they leave alone the things they're telling us make it so impossible to do well.

[trst]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Ok but they've tried a bunch of times to flesh out the endgame. They've been making attempts at it pretty much since there's been a Warframe.

They aren't often very successful, but it's undeniable that DE is constantly trying to create endgame content even if they're sometimes unwilling to call it that. It's not that they don't want to, or aren't trying to. It's that they can't as long as they leave alone the things they're telling us make it so impossible to do well.

But are they intending for those to actually be what the players would call an end-game or are they calling it by being at the "end" of the game progression wise? Because Warframe at every single stage of its life has had an actual "end-game" even if players never felt like there really was one.

Like Sorties were the end-point of the game for being the hardest content we had on offer at the time. Even though geared players back then didn't even consider it difficult or end-game.

[PublikDomain]

7 minutes ago, trst said:

But are they intending for those to actually be what the players would call an end-game or are they calling it by being at the "end" of the game progression wise? Because Warframe at every single stage of its life has had an actual "end-game" even if players never felt like there really was one.

Like Sorties were the end-point of the game for being the hardest content we had on offer at the time. Even though geared players back then didn't even consider it difficult or end-game.

🤷‍♀️ You'd have to ask DE. Though you highlight why DE seems to have shied away from the "E" word in recent years: no one can agree on what it means, and DE seems to want to avoid having to answer that "nebulous concept" or however Reb called it. But if we take DE's words at face value, they tend to treat "endgame" and "challenging content" more or less interchangeably and have for years.

Quote

difficult endgame Missions (2015)

challenging end game content (2022)

And sure, geared players probably didn't find Sorties difficult on release (I know I sure didn't), but that's just another example of what DE's been saying out loud recently: it's just too hard for them to make a good challenge when some players are invincible and wipe rooms instantly in the same squads where others are too weak to even do the Zariman quest at lvl65 or whatever it launched at.

Though the point I was trying to make is more that they've made many honest attempts at creating what they chose to call "endgame" content, which Pakaku is saying has never happened.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2023-07-14 at 9:17 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

That explains more about you, that you think game companies punish people for no reason except for sociopathy instead of legitimately having problems they're trying to fix.

jeez mate.. what wrong with you .. cray cray much..

[Loza03]

On 2023-07-13 at 6:20 AM, ReddyDisco said:

If i wanted a challenge i'd play Elden Ring, which i did for half a year while on a warframe break, excited for the DLC which is soon to come. 

Warframe is a chill looter shooter, the game is only challenging as you make it, play without a minmaxed modded weapon or not using viral, it's a whole different game.

This'd be a very valid point if Warframe wasn't an extremely unique game that has a lot of room for challenging content.

There's nothing else like Warframe, so whilst it fits the 'Chill relaxed power fantasy' well enough, if I'm in the mood for 'Warframe but more challenging and interesting', I'm more or less out of luck.

[traybong111]

On 2023-07-12 at 6:33 PM, PublikDomain said:

And it's like, cool. I get it. I want to be godlike, too. But that's not the only way to make a power fantasy! That's not even a good power fantasy. It's a superiority fantasy. It's a bullying fantasy. It's mommy telling you how big and strong and handsome you are for squishing ants. It's fighting enemies that are so weak and powerless and inconsequential that they might as well be replaced with bowls of oatmeal for all they actually matter. It's playing a Betheda game with TCL and TGM and TCAI so you can play dress-up with the NPCs.

Or we could be gods fighting other gods, which sounds like a much more fulfilling power fantasy to me. And we could have that, and raids, and not have bad things like mastery fodder, and not need mechanics like Attenuation etc., and so on if it weren't for the appalling balance that DE themselves says is making it so hard for them to do anything.

I don't necessarily agree that there are "good" or "bad" power fantasies, though what labels we put on power fantasies are not really relevant to the discussion at hand. 

People enjoy different power fantasies and a game that's been growing as long as Warframe has could support more than one. If people want their casino-esque big number explosions and fireworks with zero chance of failure or threat? Like the great Shadow Warrior once said, sometimes after a busy day of work all someone wants is to feel like a goddamn superhero and there's nothing wrong with that. I have never denied or devalued escapist power fantasy for being easy and brainless; no matter what anybody wants to believe human life would be worse off without experiences we call "junk food." 

No, what really frustrates me is the loud section of PvE playerbase that seethe and gnash their teeth at the mere idea that god-stomping-on-ants isn't the only power fantasy Warframe can be. It's such a conceited and myopic view to purport about a videogame they claim to enjoy, all in order to shout down anybody who enjoys and wants to expand on different aspects of said videogame. 

I really don't get how a game as chill and flexible as Warframe has ended up with a community that is so deathly afraid of Warframe ever stepping out of their comfort zone, though I agree DE's wild inconsistencies regarding "balance" decisions probably have a lot to do with it. 

[Loza03]

57 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

I don't necessarily agree that there are "good" or "bad" power fantasies, though what labels we put on power fantasies are not really relevant to the discussion at hand. 

People enjoy different power fantasies and a game that's been growing as long as Warframe has could support more than one. If people want their casino-esque big number explosions and fireworks with zero chance of failure or threat? Like the great Shadow Warrior once said, sometimes after a busy day of work all someone wants is to feel like a goddamn superhero and there's nothing wrong with that. I have never denied or devalued escapist power fantasy for being easy and brainless; no matter what anybody wants to believe human life would be worse off without experiences we call "junk food." 

No, what really frustrates me is the loud section of PvE playerbase that seethe and gnash their teeth at the mere idea that god-stomping-on-ants isn't the only power fantasy Warframe can be. It's such a conceited and myopic view to purport about a videogame they claim to enjoy, all in order to shout down anybody who enjoys and wants to expand on different aspects of said videogame. 

I really don't get how a game as chill and flexible as Warframe has ended up with a community that is so deathly afraid of Warframe ever stepping out of their comfort zone, though I agree DE's wild inconsistencies regarding "balance" decisions probably have a lot to do with it. 

I'm gonna expand and say that this lack of balance even holds back the 'god stomping on ants' type power fantasy, or at least many versions of it.

 

In Devil May Cry 4 or 5, Nero can literally throw enemies around like a ragdoll, or even into other enemies to deal excellent damage to both. Dynasty Warriors enemies visibly recoil when struck, weaker ones being thrown around. Dynamic camera angles zoom in or pull out to show the swath of destruction you leave, or how many enemies you killed in that one attack. Deep Rock has enemies explode in technicolour gore as Synthwave and/or rock jams in the background, with huge bugs twice, three times your size dying in seconds - as a dozen more crawl down from the cavern wall, and half that start flying towards you, and is that a nuke on legs Bulk Detonator?!? 

Or just watch this minute of Vanquish Footage.

Spoiler

 

Game is pretty good, not great and clunky in a lot of ways if you try to bend it (you can even tell with the whole punching to move thing here), but what it absolutely succeeds at is the game feel if you lean into its jank. You race across stages able to see the bullets moving in bullet time. You can distract heat-seeking robots with cigarettes, or shoot your own grenades out of the air. Obviously, Warframe's a multiplayer game, so many of Vanquish or the Warriors game's specific techniques wouldn't work, but there's also definitely more than the fairly generic death animations or simple disappearing that a lot of Warframe's enemies do, or more room and encouragement for creative, stylish combat and movement.

As-is, high level Warframe is sitting still hitting two buttons over and over and over and over and over, standing stock still as enemies simply despawn, far from view. Occasionally broken up with sliding around spin attacking to do the same thing, if you remember that meta.

 

It's not just 'Stomping on Ants' superiority fantasy, it's the most barebones take. And for a game so brimming with creativity and style in so many other ways, that's a tragedy.

[Zakalwe]

The challenge for me is in increasing efficiency.

I take a look at some key videos from people like TheKengineer explaining the maths, then some easy to digest examples from people like Layzar to give me an some ideas, and from there I try to work out my own builds for my own loadouts and see how efficient I can get.

I like trying to catch up with players in higher level lobbies with powerful builds, and seeing if I can solo add-clear type content as quickly as I can

No other games like this leans so hard into the power fantasy element, and it's super satisfying.

I've got a tonne of content to try due to recently returning from a very long break,  I don't know how long this will hold my interest, but nothing lasts forever and that is OK.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Zakalwe

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, traybong111 said:

People enjoy different power fantasies and a game that's been growing as long as Warframe has could support more than one. If people want their casino-esque big number explosions and fireworks with zero chance of failure or threat? Like the great Shadow Warrior once said, sometimes after a busy day of work all someone wants is to feel like a goddamn superhero and there's nothing wrong with that. I have never denied or devalued escapist power fantasy for being easy and brainless; no matter what anybody wants to believe human life would be worse off without experiences we call "junk food." 

That's kinda the thing, though. There is and will always be a place to go in Warframe if you just want an escapist power fantasy where you never lose. The Starchart isn't going anywhere, and even if DE stat-squished the way I'm always advocating there'd still be plenty of easy content to play if you just want to relax after work or whatever. The "junk food" gameplay isn't under threat and never has been, and would even stand to benefit from the balancing that's prerequisite for the kind of good challenge that so many people would enjoy. Lame as I think squishing ants is, it's not going anywhere nor should it.

[MekaDovah]

They already did Roguelike and Soulslike trend chasing with Duviri. 

I don't think there's ever going to be a "challenge" that makes challenge complainers happy. Even if every enemy was invincible and one shotted you no matter what.

[Frendh]

On 2023-07-13 at 12:33 AM, PublikDomain said:

Or we could be gods fighting other gods, which sounds like a much more fulfilling power fantasy to me. And we could have that, and raids, and not have bad things like mastery fodder, and not need mechanics like Attenuation etc., and so on if it weren't for the appalling balance that DE themselves says is making it so hard for them to do anything.

That does not work all that well, conclave has shown that. Warframes fighting enemies on par with the Warframes would just be cancer. Like conclave without the balancing.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Oh no...not another thread on the decline of warframe that pops up every few months of a game spanning a decade:

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, Frendh said:

That does not work all that well, conclave has shown that. Warframes fighting enemies on par with the Warframes would just be cancer. Like conclave without the balancing.

Or maybe we could idk just fight more powerful enemies? I dunno like the leaders of the different factions, the big boss guys. What about big Sentients? Sentients are strong, and they're a big existential threat. Maybe they could roam around the open world zones like world bosses? Or maybe there's a Sentient in-fighting plot thing where some of the Sentients get turned into super-weapons made out of Warframes! And they're really powerful but they're loose now and have to be hunted down. Or we could fight some Void-powered bad guys, the warped manifestations of the Void. Like that big guy and his wall. What about big Orokin monstrosities that you ride in a big scripted fight? 🤔

So turns out we've got a lot of gods-fighting-gods to play with, and it's about all DE adds nowadays. Notice how none of the game's narrative focuses on "today the Tenno killed another bystander"? It's all grand world-saving? It'd just be cool if maybe some of that world-saving wasn't so easily cheesed into nothingness, and then the more mundane but still important "today the Tenno killed a really big cool robot" could be engaging too. And ofc if bystanders is all you want to rampage through there's always gonna be plenty of that for you.

Edited July 16, 2023 by PublikDomain