The price of Heirloom skins is incredibly disappointing.

[Hypernaut1]

How are people deciding for themselves that "DE doesn't need money"? I'm curious to know. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

42 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Please feel free to double check any numbers, to look up what Fomo in games actually represents, anything you need to do to verify anything above. But the only failure here remains people's inability, or in some cases unwillingness, to see the very clear level of mob mentality going on. Unless you truly are a 1 Strike person of course.

Okay, you've addressed this from the monetisation value point of view, but this completely ignores the procedure they've used.

The lowest value pack, the one that everyone could in theory afford, doesn't even contain any of the things players actually want from the purchase; none of the skins or signas.

It's the pack that literally costs triple that contains them, and the price of that is simply because they've put Regal Aya in there alongside the skins. Why did they do that?

Why is there no pack that only contains the skins and signas?

Why have they put in an item that triples the cost of the pack for something that you've pointed out in your own math usually only costs 165 Plat on its own?

This is actually where the strife comes in here.

Not that they've accurately priced their goods, but how they've combined their goods to make the prices incredibly high by proportion.

I said it above in my own post; it's disappointing because DE hasn't previously done this to their player base. The closest they got to this kind of thing before was pricing the Regal Aya packs at what they wanted the value to be compared to the Prime Vault, but forgetting that the Prime Vault also came with Plat, so the actual value for money was wrong. And they fixed that.

This is the first pack they've done for skins for real money that isn't TennoGen, and instead of offering us the skins, they packed Regal Aya and Plat into the bundles.

As I, again, mentioned earlier, these are definitely worth buying if you're a Warframe fan who spends the top tier of money. It means nothing to those players, they can afford it. But that's not the kind of monetisation that people respect or buy into normally.

If they made the lowest tier pack purely have the skins, signas and accolade, marketed that for the low end, then added the Regal Aya, Plat and all the other cosmetics on top for the higher ranks, that would be fair. That would mean that even the people with very little money to spare could get the one thing out of this bundle that they want. While it would also retain the value at the high end for players that want all of the exclusives.

And speaking of exclusives, that's what they are. They're timed exclusives. This is genuinely the definition of what causes FOMO, when something is going to go away and has no known date of when it's going to re-appear, if ever. While that date is December, it's still a fixed date where these stop being available.

FOMO does exist with this, and by saying 'compare it to other MMOs' that's like saying 'because the crime rate is higher in the next town over, you shouldn't count the low crime rate here as a crime rate'. This is, again, one of the few times that DE have actually done something like this to players, and it compounds with the sudden change in monetisation strategy this release already have.

Add any amount of FOMO to a bad monetisation strategy, and you have a justifiably upset audience.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

I highly doubt that considering that the value of the regal aya purchased separately is about half the value of the pack on it's own, and they seem to consistently value packs using everything in the pack. And even if that were the case, valuing a couple skins far beyond that of a bundle that includes a prime warframe, weapons and platinum (over 2k more platinum than this pack, which could get you multiple deluxe skins with leftover platinum on top of this) is still worthy of heavy criticism. 

Not really honest to say the regal aya makes up half the value of the pack, since the regal aya pack that includes 6 aya (7) also comes with 400p. Here you get 6 aya and 600p. So if you arent interested in the aya you really only lose value equal to 6 aya out of the 6 aya + 400p back. Since if you are going to claim packs are consistently valued, then that applies to aya packs aswell.

So he skins suddenly end up far cheaper if you actually pay for the other items like Aya and Plat aswell. Which also means the exclusivity of these skins isnt accounted for, nor the extra work that has gone into the rigging of the universal halos for every frame, along with new adjustment mechanics that players can use as they see fit/needed. Or that the halos simply are universal for that matter.

And the exclusivity, two universal halos, new mechanics for rigging those etc. surely is worth around 15 euro or whatever currency you might use if regal aya is of absolutely no value to you.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

How are people deciding for themselves that "DE doesn't need money"? I'm curious to know. 

People are deciding that DE doesn't need money this way.

They hosted a massive convention for their game just this weekend, they gave away 200k to charity, they gave away 10k to a Cosplay contest, they have licensed their game engine and services out to Wayfinder, they are making an entire separate game in the form of Soulframe.

And that's just this week's stuff. They regularly make massive donations to charity based purely on the amount of gifts that players send to each other with Plat (a resource that players buy in advance, meaning that they're mostly using their excess revenue from the previous months to fund this, rather than relying on the influx of payments people make to get Plat in that specific drive).

DE have, in recent years, had massive shares bought by an international games company that is... the main reason they're bringing out the mobile version and created several frames to appeal to a certain country's audience (and why Excalibur Prime Umbra is a thing, rather than just Excalibur Umbra). Along with multiple other investments allowing them to revamp an entire mo-cap studio for their cinematics and animation department, along with splitting their team for different projects.

They sponsor other companies to make their advertising, like Lightning Cosplay, so they're not just paying their bills here, they're paying other people's bills.

DE are not hurting for money.

They make a lot of money.

They don't need to start making poorly-managed monetisation packs like these where the price is artificially inflated by bundling the things people want with things they don't.

[ShogunGunshow]

53 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

True. What's false though is acting like 120+ days isnt enough time for any rational person to decide if they want something or not. Usually something like that can be done anywhere from 10 mins to 1 day depending on the severity of the outcome of the choice.

By the way, are you, right now this very second, worried that you'll run out of time to get your Xmas presents bought and wrapped?

Rationality doesn't really factor into it. That's why FOMO is effective. It gets people to behave irrationally. That's the whole point. 

[MaleniaBladeofMiquella]

1 minute ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Rationality doesn't really factor into it. That's why FOMO is effective. It gets people to behave irrationally. That's the whole point. 

Also please consider all of the people who will end up getting into the game after the period is over. I can't imagine having to tell your friend who you convinced to try the game that they can NEVER have the cool premium skin you have because they showed up a bit late is going to be enjoyable for most people. It's just a bad situation for everyone involved.

[makaloff95]

i still hope they separat the packs much more, im not interested in getting the Aya, i just want the actual skins and the attachement. 40€ for both+ the attachement would make it much better. I think my biggest issue is the "buy it now or gone forever!!!" , its disgraceful tactic and they are losing out so much on this, both in terms of actual money but also community goodwill.

FOMO never has and never will be good game design, its just predatory, immoral and greedy.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

.

They are called many things, some that are not as pretty but "WKs" and "Whales" seem to be the common nicknames here. Even tho I don't quite get "Whale" for a nickname.

 

I mostly heard the term "whale" from the community of gacha games. Another term that they use is "dolphin" aka a low spender that isn't f2p but also isn't a whale that's dropped hundreds of dollars.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Okay, you've addressed this from the monetisation value point of view, but this completely ignores the procedure they've used.

The lowest value pack, the one that everyone could in theory afford, doesn't even contain any of the things players actually want from the purchase; none of the skins or signas.

It's the pack that literally costs triple that contains them, and the price of that is simply because they've put Regal Aya in there alongside the skins. Why did they do that?

Why is there no pack that only contains the skins and signas?

Why have they put in an item that triples the cost of the pack for something that you've pointed out in your own math usually only costs 165 Plat on its own?

This is actually where the strife comes in here.

Not that they've accurately priced their goods, but how they've combined their goods to make the prices incredibly high by proportion.

I said it above in my own post; it's disappointing because DE hasn't previously done this to their player base. The closest they got to this kind of thing before was pricing the Regal Aya packs at what they wanted the value to be compared to the Prime Vault, but forgetting that the Prime Vault also came with Plat, so the actual value for money was wrong. And they fixed that.

This is the first pack they've done for skins for real money that isn't TennoGen, and instead of offering us the skins, they packed Regal Aya and Plat into the bundles.

As I, again, mentioned earlier, these are definitely worth buying if you're a Warframe fan who spends the top tier of money. It means nothing to those players, they can afford it. But that's not the kind of monetisation that people respect or buy into normally.

If they made the lowest tier pack purely have the skins, signas and accolade, marketed that for the low end, then added the Regal Aya, Plat and all the other cosmetics on top for the higher ranks, that would be fair. That would mean that even the people with very little money to spare could get the one thing out of this bundle that they want. While it would also retain the value at the high end for players that want all of the exclusives.

And speaking of exclusives, that's what they are. They're timed exclusives. This is genuinely the definition of what causes FOMO, when something is going to go away and has no known date of when it's going to re-appear, if ever. While that date is December, it's still a fixed date where these stop being available.

FOMO does exist with this, and by saying 'compare it to other MMOs' that's like saying 'because the crime rate is higher in the next town over, you shouldn't count the low crime rate here as a crime rate'. This is, again, one of the few times that DE have actually done something like this to players, and it compounds with the sudden change in monetisation strategy this release already have.

Add any amount of FOMO to a bad monetisation strategy, and you have a justifiably upset audience.

I did read the entire post, but there's one single part that stood out to me, and to be honest, the entire argument kind of falls apart without it. It was:

"instead of offering us the skins"

To which I would say: 

Yesterday 5 new items were made available to players, not 2. 3 of them everyone everywhere with an Internet connection could get for Free (Dex Suit, Gotva Prime, Gara Prime).

I apologise but I just can't let that fact get swept under the rug so easily. 2 of the 4 new items were absolutely free, unless you count them costing you time. And to top it off you could get 1 Prime Warframe free too. And yes theres obviously the semantic argument of "well theres people who had gara already", but then id simply return with "cool give me 2 mins and ill find someone in chat who didnt" and then we get nowhere, it's a pretty stupid stalemate.

If you've been given 3 out of 5 things absolutely free, (the Dex Suit also running up until an extended date too btw but no arguments about FOMO over that, which is odd considering its "not about $") it doesn't look great to be honest.

Edited August 27, 2023 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

29 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Rationality doesn't really factor into it. That's why FOMO is effective. It gets people to behave irrationally. That's the whole point. 

I'd be interested to hear you expand on that.

See the "fear" and "irrationality" you're referring to in psychological terms are actually results from conditions such as Anxiety/Panic Disorders, sometimes OCD if it presents Panic/Anxiety as a symptom alongside it, and packaged differently so it looks like its a different problem. The real versions of course happen when a persons Fight/Flight/Freeze response kicks in and there are literal internal changes happening alongside decreased serotonergic activity in the brain.

But please do go on, I'd be interested in finding out why FOMO isnt just a lack of impulse control which can be taught, and is instead linked to some of the most crippling psychological conditions around the world?

[ShogunGunshow]

If I had any confidence you would actually be open to a different idea, I would. You very clearly already have made up your mind, though, and I have no desire to be psychoanalyzed by some rando on the internet willing to pass off all responsibility of psychologically exploitative marketing onto the targets with addictive personality traits, so I'll pass.

[-Shavo-]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb RasserG:

I don't have Excalibur Prime and I don't want him, because it's a honored trophy for the players that helped kickstart Warframe.

It honors yourself that you have such a clear view on it and that you are fine with not owning him.

I have him and (like most vets) barely use him. Also Umbra Excal got too much upgrades (Sentient res shred, umbral forma slots at him and exalted weapon) over him so its even less motivating and rewarding to use him. 
 

For me as a status symbol is the profile badge and the fact that warframe survived. Thats with what I am happy enough. 
 

And I can understand the people who wish to get their hands on him so I would always say set him free for all :)

 

The 10th would been the perfect moment for that.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

People are deciding that DE doesn't need money this way.

They hosted a massive convention for their game just this weekend, they gave away 200k to charity, they gave away 10k to a Cosplay contest, they have licensed their game engine and services out to Wayfinder, they are making an entire separate game in the form of Soulframe.

And that's just this week's stuff. They regularly make massive donations to charity based purely on the amount of gifts that players send to each other with Plat (a resource that players buy in advance, meaning that they're mostly using their excess revenue from the previous months to fund this, rather than relying on the influx of payments people make to get Plat in that specific drive).

DE have, in recent years, had massive shares bought by an international games company that is... the main reason they're bringing out the mobile version and created several frames to appeal to a certain country's audience (and why Excalibur Prime Umbra is a thing, rather than just Excalibur Umbra). Along with multiple other investments allowing them to revamp an entire mo-cap studio for their cinematics and animation department, along with splitting their team for different projects.

They sponsor other companies to make their advertising, like Lightning Cosplay, so they're not just paying their bills here, they're paying other people's bills.

DE are not hurting for money.

They make a lot of money.

They don't need to start making poorly-managed monetisation packs like these where the price is artificially inflated by bundling the things people want with things they don't.

You're still pretending to know far more about their financial situation than you actually do. 

Argue about the price if you want, but it's downright silly to say "they don't even need the money" as a reason why they shouldn't charge what they feel to for cosmetic items. 

DE is a business, not a charity. They don't reach a certain profit margin and think "well, anything more we make goes to the fans for free because we have enough money" 

[NecroPed]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really honest to say the regal aya makes up half the value of the pack, since the regal aya pack that includes 6 aya (7) also comes with 400p. Here you get 6 aya and 600p. So if you arent interested in the aya you really only lose value equal to 6 aya out of the 6 aya + 400p back. Since if you are going to claim packs are consistently valued, then that applies to aya packs aswell.

So he skins suddenly end up far cheaper if you actually pay for the other items like Aya and Plat aswell. Which also means the exclusivity of these skins isnt accounted for, nor the extra work that has gone into the rigging of the universal halos for every frame, along with new adjustment mechanics that players can use as they see fit/needed. Or that the halos simply are universal for that matter.

And the exclusivity, two universal halos, new mechanics for rigging those etc. surely is worth around 15 euro or whatever currency you might use if regal aya is of absolutely no value to you.

 

Thats my bad I forgot about the plat, but it still clearly contributes to a considerable chunk of the value of the pack. 

And if I'm buying plat I'm preferable to buying more platinum at once, I lose value in getting that amount of platinum in a bundle at that price. 

Exclusivity to some cosmetics is not worth close to $100 for me since I don't really want the regal aya or the plat at that value. And the cheaper packs separate the items in such a way that actually deincentivises both cheaper packs for me. 

[Gabriel-Fi]

Highly agreed that the price tag is extremely unreasonable for the entire bundle. DE please pay attention to your player base on this one...

I say majority of the players are only interested in the skins, and these, in my opinion, to at the very least make the limited time offer more appealing, is to separate the skins from the bundle and sell them separately.

Those who buy the bundle can be happy with the extra resources and cosmetics, those who are interested in a skin that is for some reason is not platinum-purchase, can buy the skins individually.

[Vortex]

I mean, a lot of founders literally supported this for the first time and was happy for the past 10 years for it, a lot just sitted in relays or any mission with your excalibur prime while everyone else was crying because of the lost oportunity, but you all was happy with your ego in the skies.

But magically the same guys now are crying because someone else can be more exclusive than them if they don't keep "supporting like a hero" as they always said.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited August 27, 2023 by Vortex

[(PSN)MYKK678]

48 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

If I had any confidence you would actually be open to a different idea, I would. You very clearly already have made up your mind, though, and I have no desire to be psychoanalyzed by some rando on the internet willing to pass off all responsibility of psychologically exploitative marketing onto the targets with addictive personality traits, so I'll pass.

I'm not sure what's more funny to be honest:

- a person who was clearly out of their depth talking about a subject they dont know about, still insisting they do despite not even noticing that they never quoted the post they were replying to, meaning they were essentially talking to themselves

- Or the 3 folks who "liked" the post and didn't catch it either

I'll let these chuckles play out and get back to you about the results. In the meantime if youre going to attempt to lecture someone who worked in the field youre claiming to know all about, at least try to read up on actual published papers regarding the subject instead of pulling info from news articles online.

Edited August 27, 2023 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[ShogunGunshow]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I'm not sure what's more funny to be honest:

- a person who was clearly out of their depth talking about a subject they dont know about, still insisting they do despite not even noticing that they never quoted the post they were replying to, meaning they were essentially talking to themselves

- Or the 3 folks who "liked" the post and didn't catch it either

I'll let these chuckles play out and get back to you about the results. In the meantime if youre going to attempt to lecture someone who worked in the field youre claiming to know all about, at least try to read up on actual published papers regarding the subject instead of pulling info from news articles online.

Here, I'll quote you so you can follow my response:

Ahem.

"Lol."

Edited August 27, 2023 by ShogunGunshow

[NecroPed]

On 2023-08-27 at 9:36 PM, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

Very much is a mob mentality. I'll proceed by proving it.

 

Your post above is basically full of things you haven't really thought about. And I want to be crystal clear about this, that's not an attack on your intelligence, I'm sure you're very intelligent, but that doesn't make you immune to mob mentality. Lets have a look at your main points and see why your post is nothing but an echo chamber for the Irrational:

 

A) "you're forced into buying stuff you might not actually want"

You probably know what's coming with this one. Nobody is forced to do anything, there's no gun to your head. Outside of that very obvious, albeit cliché, truth, why do you think you'll never need the extras? Is it because you won't use it next week, or next month? What about 6 months time? 12? Most of the folks moaning about the Aya are only thinking short-term. A lot of them didn't even notice that the Aya is there because Frost and Mag were added to Varzias shop yesterday. Varzias shop itself is still basically new, so the assumption that you know you'll never need Aya for anything else is inherently flawed. Even as-is there are many who get their Primes from there now.

 

B) "There is huge FOMO"

There isn't. As much as I wish there was some middle ground here, there isn't any of that either. 120 days plus what's left of August. Would you like to take a crack at guessing how many limited time events, sales, offers, bonuses or experience boost weeks are going to be taking place in every other MMO worldwide during those 120+ days? Have you ever had a decision in your life you needed 120+ days to make? Also I don't mean to alarm anyone, but every MMO that has ever existed has had a form of FOMO built into it, without the need for money. What do you think Daily/Weekly alerts are? Thats not "predatory" lol, it's good game design. In essence youve only now decided to complain about something you've experienced for decades. Any guesses as to why? Oh and I'm guessing this "you dont get 3 strikes, you only get 1" attitude isn't normally yours either. 

 

C) "And a lot of people don't even have a problem with the cosmetics costing $"

Oh they absolutely do. In between all the barking is a few subtle "why isn't it platinum" posts.

 

D) "it's the whole value of the pack"

Yeah about that, let's look at the math here for a second. So just to break down the contents of the Top Pack, which isn't even necessary to get the skins of course but I wanna be fair because the second Pack looks worse for your side of the argument:

- 2 Deluxe Warframe Skins

- Regal Aya x6

- Platinum x600 (PS5)

- Colour Pallette

- Emote

- Glyph

So, deluxe warframe skins usually cost 165 plat alone. Im not going to include the signas in this as that wouldnt be fair nor possible, I have no frame of reference for the cost and im not going to "guess" if its like solo accessories. Emotes are 25 plat each. Colour Pallettes are 75 plat. Glyphs are 10/15/20, so averages 15 plat. And 600 plat is 600 plat. All adds up to 1045 worth of platinum. 1000 platinum (discounted) on the marketplace is €50. So for arguments sake let's say 1045 plat then is €50.25.

7 Regal Aya costs €36.99. But the pack only gives 6 not 7. So that's €31.71.

€50.25 + €31.71 = €81.96

The Top Heirloom pack we've been referencing costs €80.99.

So without including the brand new customisation option, which given how its a cosmetic will have a price in future iterations, the Heirloom pack without it costs €0.94 less. And you doubt that you may be echoing others saying its about "value"?

 

Please feel free to double check any numbers, to look up what Fomo in games actually represents, anything you need to do to verify anything above. But the only failure here remains people's inability, or in some cases unwillingness, to see the very clear level of mob mentality going on. Unless you truly are a 1 Strike person of course.

If people want the unique items of the pack and don't want the items that are regularly available outside of the pack they are forced to buy something they don't want to get what they want. And with those extra items inflating the value of the bundle being available already outside of the bundle needing to purchase them alongside these unique items is completely unnecessary. If it were an option with an appropriately valued pack without the inflated value then it wouldnt be a problem.

Yes its great that people who don't have frost or mag prime have access to them with this bundle through regal aya (though theres a glaring issue there that you're ignoring, will touch on it below), but a lot of people who want the cosmetics for them already have the primes. A lot of the people who have the least value in the regal aya are some of the people who've supported the game the most. And the cheaper packs separate the items in a way that deincentivises each of them if you want all the unique items. What they should have done is have a pack with the unique items simply without the regal aya. And it doesn't matter that you MIGHT have use for regal aya at some point, you shouldn't be pushed into buying it for unique items that are never coming back just to have it sitting there to maybe get used one day. I don't want to spend that much money on something I have no idea when I plan to use it, if at all. If I want prime access stuff I tend to just get the prime access so I'm really not in need of regal aya. And it seems like far better value to me.

 

Im sorry but I think youre just wrong. If it can go away forever it has FOMO, plain and simple. Several months doesn't remove FOMO from an item thats never coming back ever again. If it goes away you literally miss out forever if you didn't get it so there is literally fear of missing out if you don't purchase it. FOMO existing in games is poor justification for it to continue to exist. 

 

I'm not saying everyone doesn't have issue with it costing $ but there is a hell of a lot more being said than that, and by a lot of people. Personally, I don't have a problem with cosmetic packs costing $ as long as they're done fairly.

 

Yeah the whole value of the pack far exceeds the value of the unique items that will never be available again, so there is FOMO on the bundle that some people don't want parts of. And for less than the cost of this bundle you can get two tiers of prime access, which gives enough platinum to get many more cosmetics than whats available in the bundle and more, a prime warframe and weapons (which the regal aya from the bundle is not enough for either and incentivises buying more regal aya to complete the set which is another problem that ties into a problem with the monetization of regal aya as well). You can get 2 tiers of prime access and get far more value out of your purchase at a slightly lower cost without being pushed into purchasing things you might not want. With this bundle you're basically getting less than a tier 2 prime access for a higher cost, with the minimum amount of regal aya purchasable being 2 aya more than what would give you the entire set from a prime resurgence basically forcing people to buy more than they need if they want to complete the set and don't have a use for excess regal aya. As far as I'm concerned they've distorted the value of their bundles with this pack. 

And I'm not echoing anyone because I never even read a single comment about this before coming to the forums to complain about it. I have my own thoughts about this and it annoys me that you just assume everyone is having mob mentality for sharing a genuinely fair perpsective.

Edited September 2, 2023 by NecroPed

[Circle_of_Psi]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I don't know where the term originated from for gaming, but I'm going to have to guess it has something to do with how much value real whales offer in resources for being poached.

A few people pointed this out already, thanks to all who have done so!

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

My enjoyment in this game now is keeping up with releases and owning it all (within reason).

I don't mind throwing money at the game when it's monetized in a way that isn't actually wasting my money.

My "enjoyment" now is watching everything crumble and watching how monetized stuff like this is pulling the rug under the "loyal" players and watching who'll defend this game to the death realising that their game isn't perfect anymore.

I'll log in to check my daily log-in and if there are any alerts (Umbra) and then log off, I tend to play longer if friends want to play. (As they practically beg me to play) And that's about it, I used to play WF quite a ton given the number of hours played but if I had a way to reset that so it goes back to Zero to try to prove a point, I would but sadly (the normal way anyway).

What broke the back for me is how they treat their player base and how they monetize their game, ever since they sold out to that company, I knew that it'll get worse before it gets better, on top of that is how they handle their Tennocon & Hype Trailers, since the first big reavel at TennoCon 2018 is the prime example. (I can't recall if other Tenncons before did the same, but only counting 18 since that's when it started for me)

TennoCon 2018 (And Going):

Each and every single Update they've shown in Tennocon or other has been nothing more but Show & Tell Updates (AKA: Show and Years to Release) that then turn into Delayed Updates, due to too much ambition and it all on careful and very well done Rail and half the time what they show in the update isn't what we actually get in-game, Paradox Update is a prime example of this with a few minor exceptions and they always show/hype it up so people get way too excited and are drawn into the flame like moths and it's the perfect bait.

The Railjack//New War/Paradox update was shown near the time Fortuna was shown, Look out how long it took for them to even get Railjack out the door, let alone the Paradox update, all hot air and hype, Now they do the same with 2023 and they once again showed off 3 updates "upcoming" with nothing but flashy trailers/demo rails and whatever this 1999 was.

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

I have no issue with bundles with tons of extras only if there's an option to buy lower packs. Chinese New Year bundles come to mind here, same with various Support Packs. The only issue I still have with Regal Aya is the "just too short" pricing scheme so you're inclined to buy too much. This Heirloom pack is only predatory because of the bloated nature of it AND being time-limited/marketed with FOMO.

It's akin to how you used to have to buy an entire Vault Pack that you didn't need just to get the cosmetics you wanted. Sure, it took a large Youtuber to call them out on it to get it fixed (which I won't forget), but it was addressed. It's the exact same deal here. If someone needs Frost and Mag Prime with these skins, simply offer the pricing in a way where buying that much Regal Aya is still a value proposition, just don't force everyone to have to buy that Regal Aya. If you're a true supporter for all these years, there's a good chance you own Frost Prime and Mag Prime (and their associated weapons) already.

Ever since they sold out to Tencent, all of this was predictable and there really isn't anything else to say in this matter, we know who to blame and players can only do one thing, vote with their wallet, but again, they'll always be "them" who will do it anyway

[Kymaeraa]

I think 20 bucks per Frost skin+signa or Mag skin+signa is still too much.

IMO it should be 10 or 15 per and 25 for a pack with both.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Kymaeraa

[Cr4zyDoc]

Oh if they would "need" money they would make it more accesible. for my part im ONLY intrested in the mag skin but im not paying for all the extra stuff i neither want or need. even IF only available with IRL currency they could sell waaay more at a cheaper pricepoint/selling the skins individual. just go through the threads made since the leaks. 

And its just also a simple fact that people value their time and effort earning money. so they dont buy. in the past everything had discounted plat and way better Value for the money. Some people seem to forget that u pay for some bits and bytes that are gone once the game dies, which can happen at any time. 

So yeah not everyone mindlessly defend this kind of cashgrab, especially for the before mentioned reasons. you do you but let the peoples voices be heard here that we dont happy about it so they rethink hopefully and change stuff in the Future.

[ShogunGunshow]

Based on 10 years of evidence I'm going to suggest that DE doesn't, in fact, need to do this in this specific way.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I have a general interest in etymology, as far as I am aware, video games, online games etc borrowed the term whales from casino lingo. As in it predates a lot of the examples people are giving. I think the first term I can remember the term being used, was in the Martin Scorsese movie Casino released in 1995. Its also broadly been used in slang for various purposes to describe notably large aspects within any given context from the 1900s onwards. Pretty sure the term was used in late 80's/early 90's. Not exactly sure beyond that though. 

I think some replies can also miss the point of others. People obviously have different preferences, priorities, goals in general. Not every expressed criticism or issue is a challenge to your world view or necessitates you defend against it. Which of course is also separate from individuals own expressions of acceptance, agreement, satisfaction, apathy or so on... The weird part though, is when people challenge others ideas or perspectives... whilst clearly misunderstanding, or misinterpreting others. Its a bit inherently silly, because such behaviour and techniques, can and often are mirrored by others. So conversations just devolve into people not actually addressing how others sincerely feel, but hollow, weak, silly exaggerations that vaguely resemble others points, undercut to make easier to address. Sometimes its actually a good strategy to actually steelman other peoples arguments. 

For example, I personally wouldn't make an argument about DE not needing to do this financially, because I don't think thats a good argument on its own, and I am quite transparent as far as not being an expert in FTP models in gaming and DE's internal structure. That being said, when I see a person talk or make points that way, I can generally understand that they could also mean in a relative subjective matter. Which is a fairer interpretation. For example, we can get a little abstract for the sake of refining certain arguments. Lets go to one super extreme and say that Heirloom skins are made by DE to now cost $1000 dollars. Certain peoples arguments would still actually stand. DE does need to make money... some people would be able to afford it, for all we know, DE may be really struggling and they need to do this... Thing is, you can insert any price in there too. 1 billion USD, well, there are still ways someone could defend this. "Its a publicity stunt, they are getting a lot of media attention, and eyes on the product and thus more people playing and supporting the game", so then it sort of becomes more about how sincere people are in understanding each others points, willingness and capacity to agree to disagree. For example, we went to a pretty big extreme towards large amounts of money, can also do the same with smaller amounts. Like sure, probably some people who would like the skins to just be free and everything be free. That doesn't mean that there aren't more nuanced and different viewpoints and perspectives either. 

DE themselves is more than away of how predatory game systems can be, they famously removed certain systems because of this. Such systems can have defences as well, but they aren't very consumer friendly. Not to invalidate the perspective of an individual who would want to stick up for such practices, just it can create this awkward situation if a company cares less about those defences and more about the goodwill other people carry instead. Adaptability can be as profitable as certain systems designed to "encourage" people to spend money, including changing/modifying plans, see Regal Aya, see Prime Accessories separation, see numerous other examples. Contrarianism is also something people can just do, because they can as well, and that can have positive and negative aspects too. As far as online discourse though, it can get pretty tiring to have to account for people who aren't as careful or discerning, just because they may be more interested in "winning" the online argument. 

Like some people have expressed not liking how certain items they don't care for are included in the bundle, but a bunch of people are addressing it trying to explain or justify it. Its pretty simple though, if they just themselves, take something they like, add something they don't like, and now, each time they go to buy thing you like, now the price is far more and you get the thing you don't like as well. Thats all. Doesn't mean you have to concede ir agree with every other point, argument or perspective of the other player. You just now, at least can understand that specific point or idea more/better, without having to excuse it or try to convince them its actually fine. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:

I'm not sure what's more funny to be honest:

- a person who was clearly out of their depth talking about a subject they dont know about, still insisting they do despite not even noticing that they never quoted the post they were replying to, meaning they were essentially talking to themselves

- Or the 3 folks who "liked" the post and didn't catch it either

I'll let these chuckles play out and get back to you about the results. In the meantime if youre going to attempt to lecture someone who worked in the field youre claiming to know all about, at least try to read up on actual published papers regarding the subject instead of pulling info from news articles online.

 

Well I think you have both made a few decent agreeable points, and some points, that I may not personally have agreed with entirely, but thought they were well written and formulated. I also mean agreed with entirely in the sense, I didn't necessarily disagree, I may just have wanted more context or evidence or just lack personal understanding on a reference or point made. 

That being said, I can also sympathise with them, because, and I mean this with kindness and politeness, but you do come off a bit argumentative and insincere at times, and just a touch condescending. Also like... this is a long thread, I don't read every single reply from every single user and follow different conversations and back and forth between users, so I totally get that maybe I missed examples of users treating you in a such a way, as to influence your tone. I myself for example, think I probably come across condescending unintentionally too sometimes. 

In short, I can see why that other user wanted to disengage with you. I think it was a bit of a shame, because I think you both could have continued your conversation, but in a more amicable and friendly way, as such topics can be interesting to read and learn about. When some passive aggression and small barbs find themselves involved though, well many peoples fatigue just sets in too. Cheers.