Warframe 1999 - Add-on content is nice, but I'd have preferred core Warframe to be the main focus

[Hayrack]

The delusional theory-crafting is getting out of hand.

We are getting QUESTS. Quests, that will have (maybe) new gameplay mechanics to spice things up. People were foaming about how Duviri will be a shift towards souls-like --- NOPE, we right back at core Warframe gameplay on Deimos. Same with WF 1999 - just a step from the main road.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Hayrack

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

How do you know it's NOT, for the most part, CORE?

You don't.

I just want it to be more core than New War and Duviri. They were not core warframe at all. One disrespected farms, the other disrespected builds.

[NocheLuz]

4 hours ago, Hayrack said:

The delusional theory-crafting is getting out of hand.

We are getting QUESTS. Quests, that will have (maybe) new gameplay mechanics to spice things up. People were foaming about how Duviri will be a shift towards souls-like --- NOPE, we right back at core Warframe gameplay on Deimos. Same with WF 1999 - just a step from the main road.

This.

It's not like they're getting unrelated stories either. We know that Entrati is responsible for the "Heart" that keeps Warframe (core gameplay) functional. We're getting the back story of it here.

[MekaDovah]

New War was kind of the biggest wake up call I had in regards to the ongoing pattern that the loot chasing we do is pointless because whenever something big comes up we're forced to play someone else. 

After the Operator, Drifter, and Khal, I am just plain tired of being someone else. I'm tired of my efforts feeling invalidated because of what feels like trend chasing whims. I'm tired of any potentially interesting story threads going no where. So at this point, I really just can't care about this new guy because not only do I just not want to be him, but I know he's not going to matter after the questline is over.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Saying there are a million ways to shake up gameplay is more useful then just saying "but AOE"

Yet you cant name a single one that would actually counter AoE. DE have already added the solutions there are and they've ended up doing practically nothing. Claiming there are millions of ways without giving examples is not constructive in any way. But hey, atleast it gives you millions of reasons to keep complaining since whatever they do you can always claim there are a million more ways and the one they picked wasnt one of those.

I mean there is one solution that they havent tried, but that would also turn the forums and other community platforms into meltdown, since that solution involves to balls up and simply nerf our power across the board. Personally I would love if they did it since it is badly needed. But due to their philosophy to not remove what people might enjoy, creating new content untouched by our massive power is the best way to go to try and keep people happy. Start a new power ladder to climb and maybe not have it run amok after a while.

[MekaDovah]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean there is one solution that they havent tried, but that would also turn the forums and other community platforms into meltdown, since that solution involves to balls up and simply nerf our power across the board. Personally I would love if they did it since it is badly needed. But due to their philosophy to not remove what people might enjoy, creating new content untouched by our massive power is the best way to go to try and keep people happy. Start a new power ladder to climb and maybe not have it run amok after a while.

Why have that power exist to chase in the first place? The fact is that despite nerfs, despite making us abandon it for other characters, they still provide more of that power for us to chase. Why? What's the point? Why do we even care about whatever the meta is since it never matters when it counts?

If they don't want our power to run amok, then maybe they should stop providing more of it to us all the time.

Edited September 3, 2023 by MekaDovah

[SneakyErvin]

45 minutes ago, MekaDovah said:

Why have that power exist to chase in the first place? The fact is that despite nerfs, despite making us abandon it for other characters, they still provide more of that power for us to chase. Why? What's the point? Why do we even care about whatever the meta is since it never matters when it counts?

If they don't want our power to run amok, then maybe they should stop providing more of it to us all the time.

Because it has gone too far and they still need to provide us with something to chase. Atleast we mostly get sidegrades these days and not strict power increases. Shards were a mistake when it comes to the power aspect of them, but overall were a good addition since they brought depth and options to how we build. Which is also why they need to make new content with new progression imo, since the current things we get to chase arent really interesting or worth chasing.

It's been a long while since we actually got a real power increase aside from the shards. Weapons like Incarnons are overall just sidegrades compared to what we already had.

[LinXiaoWong]

I have no opinion on this side content beyond it looks interesting and going back to the past. 

In my opinion the very core gameplay would be the corridor style shooter version which catched many players back in 2013. In my opinion they could add or rework more old tiles to be up to date with the current game standards and not only be more pleasant to look at but they could fix old map holes and bugs caused by the tiles. Also adding more variation for the arsenal by making older looking weapons in all genre. My wish would be they could add more of the very early type of warframes with new themes, simple and not over designed. It is just a wish from my part, we will see later what they bring us next.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Are you the same person who also complained about the "Drifter" not being "Warframe"

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2023-09-02 at 5:20 AM, Silligoose said:

I can't be 100% sure what DE's motivations are for gameplay-pivots, though I'm confident part of it is to encourage player spending - when new content requires of players to use new assets, because the old assets can't be used due to [enter arbitrary reason here, such as "interference fields"], players are encouraged to skip the grind associated for new required asset, especially if the grind is frustrating/boring. Part of me thinks the current devs want to try their hand at their own thing instead of Warframe, building their vision within the game. Part of me thinks they don't know how to address the runaway power creep in core-Warframe, so the way they go about bringing a greater level of challenge is by way of a gameplay pivot that nullifies (some) progress and thereby nullifies (some) imbalances, thereby allowing them to more easily present a greater level of challenge than what is experienced in core-Warframe at lategame/endgame.

DE appears to continue to expand our arsenal both horizontally and vertically, but imbalances and homogenization options decrease the value of both in my opinion.

I guess you do you. I’ve got both balanced and unbalanced, homogenized and unique options and ways to play, and know how to span the spectrum according to what I want since nothing’s really forced on us. I’m also pretty chill about being forced to play a certain way, and can appreciate things like Duviri, as long as they don’t make it a constant thing because I like being able to mix things up pretty dramatically

While I’ll be curious to see what they do, my main hope is that the jank of the core game and polish of the new stuff will be addressed. I’ll be honest though, I’m kind of always expecting to be that bit hesitant to introduce someone new to the game since I feel like I’ll be making apologies when some bug flares up or some mod doesn’t work like intended or some jank is super obvious

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yet you cant name a single one that would actually counter AoE. DE have already added the solutions there are and they've ended up doing practically nothing. Claiming there are millions of ways without giving examples is not constructive in any way. But hey, atleast it gives you millions of reasons to keep complaining since whatever they do you can always claim there are a million more ways and the one they picked wasnt one of those.

I mean there is one solution that they havent tried, but that would also turn the forums and other community platforms into meltdown, since that solution involves to balls up and simply nerf our power across the board. Personally I would love if they did it since it is badly needed. But due to their philosophy to not remove what people might enjoy, creating new content untouched by our massive power is the best way to go to try and keep people happy. Start a new power ladder to climb and maybe not have it run amok after a while.

I don't have solutions but thinking gameplay going backwards is an idiotic answer at best. It's not up to us as consumers to fix DEs issues as much as some of us would like to help or give input. It's good sometimes DE doesn't listen to us because of some of the terrible opinions here.

Warframe 1999 does look interesting and seems to contain at least some core Warframe staples.

Edited September 3, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[thor_sten]

I liked the aesthetics of WF 1999 but I'd rather have it as a game of it's own(Like Dark Sector or Darkness II), rather than being shoehorned in into the grind of "regular" Warframe.

[MekaDovah]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because it has gone too far and they still need to provide us with something to chase. Atleast we mostly get sidegrades these days and not strict power increases. Shards were a mistake when it comes to the power aspect of them, but overall were a good addition since they brought depth and options to how we build. Which is also why they need to make new content with new progression imo, since the current things we get to chase arent really interesting or worth chasing.

It's been a long while since we actually got a real power increase aside from the shards. Weapons like Incarnons are overall just sidegrades compared to what we already had.

That doesn't address my point. Yes, they keep providing stuff for us to chase, but there's never a reason to chase it because when something major comes up, we're not allowed to use it.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-28 at 1:47 AM, Metalgearfox said:

At OP.

No.

I think that warframe power has gotten so out of hand that I can just CC and explode everything in a 1km radius every 3 seconds.

They've managed to make warframes boring with how much CC and AoE they've added, which I didn't think was possible in 2014.

It's awful.

I'm glad they are creating alternate game modes that get us back to running and gunning instead of just nuking the entire map with AoE.

While I agree with you in that power creep been allowed to progress too far and is impacting lategame/endgame negatively, I do not agree that the solution is for DE to largely ignore the power creep problem and instead work on yet another new gameplay mode. They appeared to try and present a greater level of challenge by doing this multiple times (eg The Grendel Missions, Kahl missions, Drifter combat). For the most part I enjoy the greater level of challenge, but not the extreme and lazy measures DE takes to present that greater level of challenge. I'd prefer they address power creep directly.

On 2023-08-28 at 1:53 AM, Metalgearfox said:

No, we really do. There's just too much CC and AoE for it to work.
There has to be a reset in order to get back to the fun, run and gun core of the game that made it so successful between 2014 and 2016.

However, people don't want to lose what they've grinded. They don't want to be nerfed. They don't want self-damage from AoE turned back on.

So this is the compromise.
We will get content islands with characters that are developed and balanced for the content island so that everyone can play on the island they like.

The core-Warframe lategame/endgame experience could've been well balanced at this point if DE decided to finally address the imbalances there, instead of giving it some band-aid solutions while working on lesser gameplay add-ons. It doesn't need an overhaul. It doesn't need a complete rework from the ground up. The foundations are good, but some numbers and ratios require tinkering.

Radial AoE was as effective as it was, because enemies are not nearly as durable as they should be and DE foolishly decided to turn spawns to max on SP endless missions regardless of player number, so players are surrounded by multiple weak enemies, which actually makes it easier to spam due to drop chance mechanics of resources. Due to how flimsy enemies are, the potential damage single target weapons are capable of, doesn't have the opportunity to be of practical value. I'm not a radial AoE enthusiast, but it didn't need to be nerfed. Enemy durability needed to be increased a big and more importantly, less reliance on armour to make enemies durable. Excetional outliers in performance, such as the Bramma, should've been nerfed as well.

Cc is a problem. Overguard is a low-effort attempt at addressing it, because cc remains a problem even while Overguard is working as intended. A fleshed-out cc-adaptation system could address that. A lesser version of that can be seen on Demolishers, but a more fleshed-out version would serve the game well, as the system found on Demolishers is poor with arbitrary immunities that are indicative of lazy balancing decisions from DE.

Overall damage output is a problem. Damage attenuation is a poor solution, as it not only nerfs certain weapon types more than others, but promotes crit builds, which really don't need to be promoted more.

There are players who don't want to get nerfed and those who don't mind getting nerfed, but there is no need to cater to just one of the two. Games have different difficulty settings so different types of players, with different preferences regarding difficulty, can be catered to better.

On 2023-08-28 at 5:07 PM, Els236 said:

I don't exactly know if this was what @Silligoosewas getting at, but all I saw from the trailers and recap videos on YouTube was yet another content island that will dry up within a couple of weeks, then probably be forgotten about for another 6 years when DE suddenly remember they even added it.

I was kind of cringing when it sounded like they were adding in something similar to Necramechs in this new area - please do not let this be another "Deimos vault bounty" thing again, running the same 30-minute mission ad nauseum for the 2% drop-rate of some mastery-fodder that will never get touched again.

Otherwise, it's a new tile-set, a couple of guns and a new Warframe, which is basically every single update this game gets and people will be done with the grind within a couple of weeks.

 

WF 1999 would be extremely cool, if it was a separate spin-off title, but the fact it looks like it's going to be part of the "main game" (whatever that even is nowadays), is incredibly jarring. 10 years of sci-fi ninjas in space, then suddenly thrust back to 1999 "our time", fighting alongside (or as) some Metal Gear ripoff character... I dunno how this is going to turn out. 

If I had to take a guess, I'd say it is going to be some sort of Eternalism shenanigan-fuelled alternate timeline with restrictions on player loadouts and perhaps gameplay mechanics.

I think we are, in a broad way, of similar mind regarding the update. 

On 2023-09-01 at 4:23 PM, (PSN)Zero_029 said:

This...so much this.

The game has over 10 years of content. Can you imagine the RAGE players would have if every update tied into every piece of content?

Even MMOs eventually let old content die.

Just imagine if every expansion and/or Nightwave week 100% forced us to:

- Run __ mission type __ times.

- Cracks __ Relics

- Complete __ Invasions.

- Play Archwing missions ___ times / complete __ challenges.

- Play missions using specific Pets, Companions.

- Complete __ Kuva Siphon & Floods.

- Accure/collect __ focus / Play as Operator for __ time.

- Complete a Riven or __.

- Do ___ bounties on each and every landscape map.

- Clear Eidolons __ times.

- Complete ___ K-Drive races / challenges

- Clear Orbs __ times.

- Do ___ Arbitrations

- Do __ number of Grineer Railjack mission then __ number of Corpus Railjack

- Complete/Progress with a Lich / Sister

- Do __ Steel Path missions.

- Play Kahl Missions __ times.

- Complete the Archon Hunt.

- Clear __ Duviri runs

Like...the game would be absolute chore. Especially since a lot of players don't like certain areas of content. 

If every expansion tied it all together we'd get the Monkey's Paw of a Curse that is Corpus Railjack and the new Lich/Sister finale...but for everything...

I'm glad DE keeps the more radical gameplay seperate.

When I need a break from base WF but want my WF fix...I can pop into Duviri, Kahl, or Railjack. 

When I want the core experience...I have everything else in game pretty much.

That said...

I was kind of hoping WF 1999 was gonna be a stand alone game. An offline prequel game.

Having less content islands, or none. doesn't mean players would suddenly have to do all those things every expansion, or every week for Nightwave. 

On 2023-09-01 at 9:38 PM, trst said:

Except taking gear/progression out of something into the rest of the game is all everything does.

Railjack is no different as even if the RJ itself is only used in RJ content (and technically quests now) it has a lot of weapons (all Lich weapons mind you), some frames, mastery, a number of Intrinsic upgrades apply outside of it, and even the crew/on-call system (which is a massive feature for how broken it is). Plus it benefits from all the gear you got everywhere else that you bring into it.

And technically if we want to consider "island status" as how much something is tied into the rest of the game then RJ is even least "island" of all content. As in all of Railjack you get to utilize your entire loadout including Archwing, Mech, companions, and Operator. Where the entire rest of the game prevents the use of one or more of these. You can't field a mech against Kela for farming Saryn nor can I use a Mech in Mirror Defense for Citrine.

Also Archwing and Kahl is the only content in the game that doesn't have that "core" warframe gameplay. Everything else, even the majority of a Duviri run, feature run-of-the-mill on foot frame gameplay.

 

So at best the only islands in the game is Archwing and Kahl even they they have the major tie in that everything else has. But if you want to consider things like RJ and Duviri to be islands then literally everything in the game is.

Forcing players to engage with RJ due to Lich weapons being locked behind a taxi to the Lich, doesn't suddenly make RJ part of the core-Warframe experience. It doesn't negate the effect of RJ being a largely isolated, add-on gameplay experience. Locking Ash behind Taxijack doesn't negate that either, because the issue the gameplay, lack of proper, fluid integration and the progression elements used.

Drifter-Duviri is not the same as core-Warframe. The pacing is different. The combat is different. 

The game can stand strong without RJ. It can stand strong without Duviri. It falls flat without frame-gameplay. RJ is add-on, Duviri is add-on, frame-gameplay is core. If you cannot distinguish the differences, so be it.

 

[RichardKam]

Before saying something "is not Warframe", first define what "is Warframe".

(hint: you can't)

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Why are you crying about this now? As long as i remember, those who oppose to all types of content that is not warframer cleaning a room with an ability, implied that as long as they have bullet jump and aoe weapons there is no problem.

Well, in this case, you sure want to be able to use your trusted nuke warframe or the content gonna be bad.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, MekaDovah said:

That doesn't address my point. Yes, they keep providing stuff for us to chase, but there's never a reason to chase it because when something major comes up, we're not allowed to use it.

We arent? I've used everything I own so far with the exception in Kahl missions, certain quest segments and versus Nihil.

22 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I don't have solutions but thinking gameplay going backwards is an idiotic answer at best. It's not up to us as consumers to fix DEs issues as much as some of us would like to help or give input. It's good sometimes DE doesn't listen to us because of some of the terrible opinions here.

Warframe 1999 does look interesting and seems to contain at least some core Warframe staples.

It is up to the consumer, like in most every other game that goes on for years. Ideas, feedback and so on go a long way. In some games it goes to the point where people from the community are recruited aswell, or get paid for helping the developers out with something. Just saying "diz bad fikz it!" helps no one. What is bad, what could be done differently and so on?

If you dont have an opinion on how things could change you shouldnt criticize it either because you cant come up with something better yourself.

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Forcing players to engage with RJ due to Lich weapons being locked behind a taxi to the Lich, doesn't suddenly make RJ part of the core-Warframe experience. It doesn't negate the effect of RJ being a largely isolated, add-on gameplay experience. Locking Ash behind Taxijack doesn't negate that either, because the issue the gameplay, lack of proper, fluid integration and the progression elements used.

RJ is very much not an island. You use WF, Operator, Archwing, weapons, pets and all other progress in there. In return RJ gives you more things to bring to the core game, like pets, weapons, perks and so on. There is also no lack of fluid intregration, heck it is more fluid than doing 1-off missions on the star chart since you can just keep going and going and going without exiting the mode. Allowing you to retain a larger built up stockpile of ammo for the RJ, specters, incarnon transformations and so on aswell between missions. And in addition to that all progress is saved in between missions, making the RJ integration superior to both one-off star chart missions and endless.

And for liches, they were always planned to be part of RJ. It is also a better system than the initial lich encounter setup, since now when you are done with requiems you know you only need to run one more mission that always guarantees the spawn. Plus if you go with a group everyone is after the same goal. So not a mixed group of people needing murmurs, tries or final takedowns. Only thing I'd prefer is if they made the mission in RJ more engaging to fit a "boss mission" better.

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Drifter-Duviri is not the same as core-Warframe. The pacing is different. The combat is different. 

Except at one point WF had a pace similar to that, so they are going back to that without changing the whole game. Still the majority of "Drifter-Duviri" is full on "core" WF pace. 

From start to finish of the mandatory objectives you have a 50/50 spread on Drifter/Warframe content, if you also do side portals the split is 33/66, then if you actually also make use of your transference you remove even more Drifter from it all. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Raarsi]

So I'll just wait and see.  Worst case scenario is we get another godawful TNW situation of "you can't leave" because of either lazy programming or (most likely) DE putting WAY more value in their story than what it's actually worth (which for TNW was approximately three flaming bags of dog poop).

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you dont have an opinion on how things could change you shouldnt criticize it either because you cant come up with something better yourself.

 

It's still better then being blind to the problems the game has. The opinion of leaving things in the status quo is about as helpful as road kill.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

We arent? I've used everything I own so far with the exception in Kahl missions, certain quest segments and versus Nihil.

It is up to the consumer, like in most every other game that goes on for years. Ideas, feedback and so on go a long way. In some games it goes to the point where people from the community are recruited aswell, or get paid for helping the developers out with something. Just saying "diz bad fikz it!" helps no one. What is bad, what could be done differently and so on?

If you dont have an opinion on how things could change you shouldnt criticize it either because you cant come up with something better yourself.

RJ is very much not an island. You use WF, Operator, Archwing, weapons, pets and all other progress in there. In return RJ gives you more things to bring to the core game, like pets, weapons, perks and so on. There is also no lack of fluid intregration, heck it is more fluid than doing 1-off missions on the star chart since you can just keep going and going and going without exiting the mode. Allowing you to retain a larger built up stockpile of ammo for the RJ, specters, incarnon transformations and so on aswell between missions. And in addition to that all progress is saved in between missions, making the RJ integration superior to both one-off star chart missions and endless.

And for liches, they were always planned to be part of RJ. It is also a better system than the initial lich encounter setup, since now when you are done with requiems you know you only need to run one more mission that always guarantees the spawn. Plus if you go with a group everyone is after the same goal. So not a mixed group of people needing murmurs, tries or final takedowns. Only thing I'd prefer is if they made the mission in RJ more engaging to fit a "boss mission" better.

Except at one point WF had a pace similar to that, so they are going back to that without changing the whole game. Still the majority of "Drifter-Duviri" is full on "core" WF pace. 

From start to finish of the mandatory objectives you have a 50/50 spread on Drifter/Warframe content, if you also do side portals the split is 33/66, then if you actually also make use of your transference you remove even more Drifter from it all. 

Railjack is very much the definition of content island. There is currently no reason to play it whatever so ever.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-09-01 at 10:04 PM, Worfhald said:

Nobody here knows, even in passing, about the Dark Sector? You seriously don't see the connection within the game that was the mother that gave birth to the warframe universe?.. If you don't know what it is, look for it in google and look at any gameplay to see if you recognize any element there.

Some posters in this thread, me included, refer to Hayden Tenno, because we know. It just doesn't play much of a role in the discussion.

On 2023-09-02 at 1:34 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I actually dont see any solution that involves the current power which results in a balanced and more challenging gameplay. We are just magnitudes beyond the power we actually need for anything. CC is another issues aswell. I mean, DE have already covered it themselves, they dont want to take away the power fantasy, which is why creating new modes is the solution. If you think SP could have been balanced in another way examples would be nice.

If you think DE doesn't want to "take away power fantasy" in terms of being ridiculously overpowered to the point of not being challenged, you have not been paying attention - they wouldn't implement the direct and indirect nerfs we've seen over the years had that been the case.

Prior to last year's radial AoE nerf, radial AoE was as effective as it was because enemies are not nearly as durable as they should be and DE foolishly decided to turn spawns to max on SP endless missions regardless of player number, which led to players being surrounded by multiple weak enemies, which makes it easier to spam AoE weapons and abilities due to drop chance mechanics of resources. Due to how flimsy enemies are, the potential damage single target weapons are capable of doesn't have the opportunity to be of practical value. I'm not a radial AoE enthusiast, but it didn't need to be nerfed directly in the way it was. Armoured enemy durability could've been increased a bit, non-armoured enemy EHP needed to be increased to maintain the ratios found at lower levels and more importantly, less reliance on armour to make enemies durable. Exceptional outliers in performance, such as the Bramma, should've been nerfed as well. One could've looked towards other options as well, but the route DE went obfuscates damage mechanics needlessly to an even greater extent and it seems the ammo nerfs in particular were introduced to make Incarnon Genesis AoE options more attractive.

A cc-adaptation system can be implemented in an optional challenge mode to address cc power creep, implementing some %-based values to allow for duration builds to have value despite diminishing returns being inherent to such a system. A bare-bones system is found on Demolishers, but that system needs to be fleshed out far more.

On 2023-09-03 at 6:05 AM, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

I just want it to be more core than New War and Duviri. They were not core warframe at all. One disrespected farms, the other disrespected builds.

What you want is what a lot of players want - for DE to release content that is more core-Warframe than TNW and Duviri ended up being. Content that respects farms and builds. It is what I hope to see. WF1999 gives me the impression that that both farms and builds will be disrespected again. Sure, it is early days, but players should remain mindful of DE's past actions and decisions.

On 2023-09-03 at 1:27 PM, MekaDovah said:

New War was kind of the biggest wake up call I had in regards to the ongoing pattern that the loot chasing we do is pointless because whenever something big comes up we're forced to play someone else. 

After the Operator, Drifter, and Khal, I am just plain tired of being someone else. I'm tired of my efforts feeling invalidated because of what feels like trend chasing whims. I'm tired of any potentially interesting story threads going no where. So at this point, I really just can't care about this new guy because not only do I just not want to be him, but I know he's not going to matter after the questline is over.

Agreed. I feel the same in many ways, as do many players over the years if one looks at feedback.

On 2023-09-03 at 2:32 PM, Circle_of_Psi said:

Are you the same person who also complained about the "Drifter" not being "Warframe"

Could be. Plenty of players managed to pick up on the not-so-subtle differences between Warframe gameplay and Drifter gameplay, seeing as there are differences in mechanics, pacing and gameplay. Both being in the 3rd person action genre does not make them the same. Neither does them sharing an IP. 

Drifter is so different from core-Warframe, DE had to retcon Duviri being an NPE choice, because switching between Drifter and core-Warframe is too jarring. It is also the weaker of the two options in terms of gameplay and mechanics, which is why it wasn't made the sole NPE choice.

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Before saying something "is not Warframe", first define what "is Warframe".

(hint: you can't)

Core-Warframe entails the gameplay and mechanics encountered in the majority of the gameplay experience for the majority of players. That means dexterous frame movement options interwoven with melee and gunplay offense, complimented with ability use. It is the gameplay players are introduced to at the start. The gameplay engaged with time and time again over various planets and mission types on base Star Chart. Not that hard to define it. Not that hard to recognize it, or to recognize what isn't it. RJ isn't it. Kahl isn't it. Drifter isn't it.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

RJ is very much not an island. You use WF, Operator, Archwing, weapons, pets and all other progress in there. In return RJ gives you more things to bring to the core game, like pets, weapons, perks and so on.

Had RJ been considered part of the core-WF experience, had it been integrated well, the term "taxijack" wouldn't have become as popular as it did. DE had an opportunity to integrate it well. They failed and as with so many other content islands, they moved on. That's the way it goes round these parts.

I said it before and I'll say it again: Warframe merely loses variety if it loses add-on content such as RJ. It falls flat if it loses core-Warframe, ie frame gameplay.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Except at one point WF had a pace similar to that, so they are going back to that without changing the whole game. Still the majority of "Drifter-Duviri" is full on "core" WF pace. 

From start to finish of the mandatory objectives you have a 50/50 spread on Drifter/Warframe content, if you also do side portals the split is 33/66, then if you actually also make use of your transference you remove even more Drifter from it all. 

Drifter is so different from core-Warframe, DE had to retcon Duviri being an NPE choice, because switching between Drifter and core-Warframe is too jarring. It is also the weaker of the two options in terms of gameplay and mechanics, which is why it wasn't made the sole NPE choice.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

In a way, it's interesting to see how they discuss "what is Warframe", it's an endless cycle of "I'm right, you're wrong" that has been going on for years and will continue until the game dies.

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

8 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Before saying something "is not Warframe", first define what "is Warframe".

(hint: you can't)

Challenge accepted and respected.

Warframe isn't the exclusion of a core gameplay loop that it, as a game, had established since the Founders funded the game.

Warframe isn't the inclusion of a gameplay loop that barely ties back into the core gameplay loop that the Founders funded a decade ago.

Warframe isn't New War, which doesn't allow you to take advantage of what you earned during the core gameplay loop.

Warframe isn't Kahl's Missions, which prevents you from using your warframe and main protagonist, or at the very least, their weapons or at the bare-bones minimum, their agility, established in the core gameplay loop. The core gameplay loop being the game you're participating in, 90% of the activities that are available.

Dog Days falls just short of core gameplay loop. You ARE mobile. You ARE your main protagonist. You ARE a warframe. You DO shoot guns, but only water guns. You cannot melee. You get no affinity and it's hardly considered any kind of farm. A farm is part of the game's core gameplay loop. You cannot take advantage of previous farms to benefit IN dog days, you cannot participate IN Dog Days to necessarily benefit FROM Dog Days. The two are essentially isolated parts that share identical traits.

 

You know what's a fair part of the core gameplay loop?

Railjack, as lackluster, slow, immobile and stagnant as it is, carries more core-gameplay than every other collective minigame in the entire game. It takes 2x - 6x the time to complete any real farms on Railjack. But I'd consider this a steeper Cryotic farm, as the two share an uncanny need to be specific farms for specific efforts. Railjack could definitely be more rewarding, or much faster, but it's definitely, unfortunately, core-gameplay.

 

What's 'Warframe?'

Warframe is a simulator game about a legendary guardian of the solar system. I would not call it a realism simulator, nor a resource management simulator, but I would call it a superhero simulator. Ultimately, the game is about 'you' putting in the work to make little gains for potentially large rewards, down the line. You don't NEED every reward, either.

Every farm makes you feel like a badass, from your arsenal, up, to your mobility, down. You're fast, you're powerful, you were responsible for the genocide of an entire civilization, god damn it. Everything about 'Warframe' is about redeeming your past atrocity with a present justice. Warframe 'COULD' have kahl, if he was faster and more capable of standing amongst the champions, but it won't happen.

Bullet jumping is warframe. Running around a map and experimenting on everything to figure out what weapon is good in what situation. Idealizing every problem with a solution. It's about YOU, still recovering from the genocide of the Orokin, having barely woken up, slowly getting back on your feet while the Grineer still think you're down.

Warframe is about you taking back the galaxy that everybody else has conquered, while you were gone and away. Stopping Vay Hek and his queens. Stopping 'Captain Vor' from destroying the dormant vessels of the Tenno. You're an avenger, just like Stalker.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Warframe isn't the exclusion of a core gameplay loop that it, as a game, had established since the Founders funded the game.

Incorrect. Warframe's "core gameplay" as it exists today is near-unrecognisable in comparison to its initial release.

Originally, it was a slow-paced third person shooter with a parkour system that was both limited in its use (due to stamina) and relatively inflexible, with next to no aerial mobility (Bullet Jumping and Double Jumping both didn't exist prior to 2014, and Aim Gliding was similarly absent). Parkour rooms were actually tests of route knowledge and the ability to traverse those routes without running out of stamina.

Enemies were durable and often had unorthodox weakpoints (Corpus Crewmen were completely immune to headshots unless you specifically brought a weapon with armor piercing/armor ignore damage, to give just one example).

Energy and health restoration were both much more scarce (originally limited to their respective orbs, Trinity, and limited-use items), and ammo was generally harder to restock meaning that missions (even short ones that we can just blitz through today like Exterminates) were often a matter of managing resources and combing through the entire map just to scavenge what you needed to get by.

Since Revives were limited to just 4 per-warframe per-day (as opposed to the 4-6 per-mission plus multiple means of self-revival that we have now), dying in missions actually held significant consequences.

Melee was generally seen as a last-resort option (when it wasn't outright eschewed for movement glitches like coptering) because stances weren't a thing (every weapon had a single attack combo, a slide attack, and a charged attack, with no aerial melee combos), and since enemies were more durable and we were less able to withstand incoming damage long-term, coupled with how much less mobile we were and the fact that blocking consumed stamina (as in just standing in a blocking stance would cause it to drain, even if no attacks were incoming) and didn't even provide full protection, there was no real safe way to close the distance to actually use melee in most circumstances. People who think melee is underpowered now have no idea just how bad it used to be.

 

To summarise, what you described as being the definition of "Warframe" does not align with reality, due to the simple fact that what Warframe "is" has always been a moving target. The game has mutated over the years to the point where any attempt at a static, all-encompassing definition is going to either be outdated by the next patch, or incomplete due to leaving out what it used to be.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Corvid

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

21 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Incorrect. Warframe's "core gameplay" as it exists today is near-unrecognisable in comparison to its initial release.

Originally, it was a slow-paced third person shooter with a parkour system that was both limited in its use (due to stamina) and relatively inflexible, with next to no aerial mobility (Bullet Jumping and Double Jumping both didn't exist prior to 2014, and Aim Gliding was similarly absent). Parkour rooms were actually tests of route knowledge and the ability to traverse those routes without running out of stamina.

Enemies were durable and often had unorthodox weakpoints (Corpus Crewmen were completely immune to headshots unless you specifically brought a weapon with armor piercing/armor ignore damage, to give just one example).

Energy and health restoration were both much more scarce (originally limited to their respective orbs, Trinity, and limited-use items), and ammo was generally harder to restock meaning that missions (even short ones that we can just blitz through today like Exterminates) were often a matter of managing resources and combing through the entire map just to scavenge what you needed to get by.

Since Revives were limited to just 4 per-warframe per-day (as opposed to the 4-6 per-mission plus multiple means of self-revival that we have now), dying in missions actually held significant consequences.

Melee was generally seen as a last-resort option (when it wasn't outright eschewed for movement glitches like coptering) because stances weren't a thing (every weapon had a single attack combo, a slide attack, and a charged attack, with no aerial melee combos), and since enemies were more durable and we were less able to withstand incoming damage long-term, coupled with how much less mobile we were and the fact that blocking consumed stamina (as in just standing in a blocking stance would cause it to drain, even if no attacks were incoming) and didn't even provide full protection, there was no real safe way to close the distance to actually use melee in most circumstances. People who think melee is underpowered now have no idea just how bad it used to be.

 

To summarise, what you described as being the definition of "Warframe" does not align with reality, due to the simple fact that what Warframe "is" has always been a moving target. The game has mutated over the years to the point where any attempt at a static, all-encompassing definition is going to either be outdated by the next patch, or incomplete due to leaving out what it used to be.

Evolutions of its roots don't change those roots. The core gameplay is still the same.

Everything you do, uncompromisingly, leads to something. Assassination missions always give you the odd resource that may drop from every OTHER mission.

Everything you do, uncompromisingly, leads into everything ELSE you do.

Excavator farming is useless if not for alloy plates, ferrite and other resources, which are still obtainable. This is exactly what core gameplay is.

It might not be recognizable to you, but not everyone recognizes the difference between Kahl's missions and 90% of the star chart, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you think they're one and the same.

 

You cannot get any affinity from your warframes until the 10% of that questline LETS you. That's the 3-minute beginning, and the 13[if that] minute end. New War is a walking simulator where Kahl gives nothing and you ONLY kill stuff to get from Point A to Point B. Veso... Point A > B. Teshin.... Point A.... Point B.

Drifter. Point "There will not be an archon named Nira" to Point "See? I told you! I told you! An archon!"
NO affinity. NO real farming. You might've made a FEW, but it's so few and so little that it's NOT a farm, it's a pick-up

 

New War is, if you absolutely need to be told, NOT core gameplay. It's not an evolution OF it. It's not an extension or remastering OF it. it's not something you'll do on the actual star chart. It's not something you'll do to get Mesa parts. It's not something you're required to endure for Gara or Excalibur. You get NOTHING the second, third, or fiftieth time you do New War.

But it HAS to be core gameplay, and it HAS to be warframe, because it exists and that's the criteria that matters to you. Not the many variables that separate it.

 

Bullet Jumping was the solution to an exploit players utilized JUST to go faster. Stamina was the problem with going slow. You know what happened to Warframe as a result of this exploit and similar techs?

Removed Stamina because people didn't enjoy it for the obvious reason people WANTED to use exploits to circumvent this limitation.

Added Bullet Jumping because people distinctly LOVED the feel of the exploit, which was similar. What ultimately changed in the gameplay? It got better. It never changed, it adapted. it never became something else, it grew up. It matured into something playable.

Yeah, it was slow. You know what else is slow? A game that never evolves at all.

 

 

There's also the problem of Warframe absolutely changing in some ways, but they're not related entirely to that core game at all. I not just exclusively talking about how the game plays, but what the game IS.

New War was JARRING compared to "The Sacrifice", or EVERY quest before that. At no point BEFORE 'New War' did we have entire questlines tailored AWAY from actually using what you earned. Warframe used to be ALWAYS a game about earning. You EARNED your next warframe, you EARNED the successfulness of every mission. You DESERVE to succeed because you did something smart, not only because you DID something. And it's STILL a game about earning, with the newer quests of late being tailored around the disconnect from this experience. The OLDER quests are STILL tailored to the merit you earn and the difficulty you deserve. If it's hard and you did nothing, you deserve for it to be hard.

If you farmed for something to be manageable, you deserve for it to be manageable. If you deliberately prepare for it to be difficult, knowingly participating with half your best gear on, you're WILLINGLY meriting yourself on 50% preparedness, rather than 100% optimization. And this is where New War cannot identify with 'Warframe.' You cannot prepare, you're not merited on optimizing or sub-optimizing at your leisure. You are entitled to play WORSE than 'New War' lets you play, yet you never get that option. You're entitled to play BETTER than it lets you, yet for every second you earn, you're not treated like it matters.

 

Evolution is one thing, but the only thing that changed was the game's developmental structure. Bugs may adversely affect your impression, but if those bugs never existed, it would be a whole different story. The gameplay ultimately never changes with those bugs, the bugs simply stop you from being jaded at what's not that deep and was never that deep. I love being faster, but it didn't make the game less of a farming simulator.

Edited September 4, 2023 by (NSW)Free_Aetharus

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

On 2023-09-02 at 7:48 PM, Hayrack said:

just a step from the main road.

The road needs to be restored and repaired. It's already ridden on so hard by hype trains that ultimately rode back across it and never returned, because those quests were disjointed and far detached from the rest of the game, barely resembling the star chart experience, but better. Barely resembling, if resembling, the chart in any capacity in the first place. Identifying as a different game and not identifying as 'warframe' the game it's meant to be.