Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: System Changes and General Quality of Life

[Cerikus]

On 2023-09-29 at 11:01 AM, Voltage said:

3 hours of Circuit for 2 Rivens you could buy from trade chat for 20 Platinum isn't a spectacular change. If they let you pick a pack of Pathos Clamps or Arcanes, that would be a much larger improvement

Obviously it's not an ideal solution, however, what you fail to realize is that I already want to play Circuit because I like it. My past complaints were about DE not adjusting it to not waste players time by obtaining duplicit worthless rewards. I can of course easily figure out a better reward structure for perpetual Circuit farming, but I can also imagine the salt and tears, if DE decided to make Circuit a greatly rewarding gamemode.

I will be quite satisfied with being able to play it every week (if I have the time) and sell extra items to other players. That includes rivens. Don't forget that there is a finite number of rivens that's obtainable every week and Riven addicts are more than happy to buy all my unveiled rivens, which I don't want to bother with. So it's not 3 hours fo 2 rivens I could get for 20 plat, it's 2 rivens I can sell for plat and that's very good.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Cerikus

[Zaghyr]

How are the syndicate weapon and syndicate mods going to be affected by the changes to base stats? The Hirudo is another weapon that I'm curious about because it increases Max HP on crits but only scales from the Rank0 HP, seems to me like it should scale off of the new base HP totals like the mods will be changed to do instead of rank0. I think this would be a good opportunity to look at and buff the syndicate effects (Blight, Truth, etc..), and the Unique traits showing in the configuration for syndicate weapons will also be a GREAT HELP to new players because Syndicate effects have almost no information tied to them in game.

[SteveCutler]

Will we be getting any Forma as compensation for the mod nerfs? I know you've done that sometimes in the past when changing mods. I'm probably going to be removing Vitality from some of my builds after this nerf, for example, and that will of course cost Forma.

Using the given example of Excalibur, Vitality currently adds 440 HP and after the nerf it will only give 370. Not terrible, but definitely worse than it was before.

Edited October 3, 2023 by SteveCutler

[Hexerin]

48 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

2) Making it even easier to get focus.  Yay.  Garbage.  If it's endgame content then why has every change been to make it so much easier to get?  From somebody who did the grind back when Atterax whips went through walls, I'm seeing nothing here but devaluation of the endgame to a requirement for mid-game.  Sigh.

Considering how integral the waybinds are for the game's modern design philosophy, it's a good thing they're making the focus grind not as insufferable. The moment I had access to Last Gasp, the entire game changed for the better. Then there's the focus school passives and abilities, which open doors to exotic builds that otherwise wouldn't be viable outside normal star chart. My Mag build wouldn't be functional without the energy econ Zenurik provides, nor would my Voruna build without the armor/shield stripping from Unairu. With those supportive effects from the focus schools, however, those builds become possible and vastly increase the fun factor of playing them.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

Using the given example of Excalibur, Vitality currently adds 440 HP and after the nerf it will only give 370. Not terrible, but definitely worse than it was before.

If you're still interested in ehp, you might want to switch out that Vitality for Primed Vigor if you have it. 278 health and 278 shields.  Same polarity, although 4(2) more drain.

But some forma would be nice.  Maybe even an umbra forma or two.   I don't need them, but some people will be more inclined to move from regular Vitality and Steel Fiber to the Umbral versions, as these are getting proportionately better than before with the setx2 bonus.  And some people will want to try going the other way, getting rid of those mods and experimenting with shields.

[Voltage]

On 10/2/2023 at 5:17 PM, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

I've NEVER killed a Hydrolyst.   I would love it if it was just downgraded to Terralyst.  

Why not just learn how to do the Hydrolyst? It's mechanically identical with just additional lures and limbs.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Voltage

[immpulse531]

Will the changes to Fast Deflection: added -45% Shield Recharge Delay, also be applied to Necramech Deflection?

[Emwue]

5 hours ago, immpulse531 said:

Will the changes to Fast Deflection: added -45% Shield Recharge Delay, also be applied to Necramech Deflection?

+1 and also, what about Superior Defenses (archwing analogue mod)?

[zotobom]

I love the Nightwave changes, but can the 'archgun kill' act be looked at as well? 500 enemies is way too unnecessarily grindy, I feel like 250 would be more than enough.

[master_of_destiny]

7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Considering how integral the waybinds are for the game's modern design philosophy, it's a good thing they're making the focus grind not as insufferable. The moment I had access to Last Gasp, the entire game changed for the better. Then there's the focus school passives and abilities, which open doors to exotic builds that otherwise wouldn't be viable outside normal star chart. My Mag build wouldn't be functional without the energy econ Zenurik provides, nor would my Voruna build without the armor/shield stripping from Unairu. With those supportive effects from the focus schools, however, those builds become possible and vastly increase the fun factor of playing them.

 

You seem to not get it...so let me rephrase.  If you want the focus to move from an endgame grind, which unlocks powerful skills, to something that is required in the middle-game because of the tendency for poorly designed enemies to one shot you, then this is a loss of an endgame feature.

 

Now, let me address your comments.  At the beginning of the game you have access to...what exactly?  You can't build out a frame...because you need a bunch of forma.  You can't get most of the aura mods...because they're tied to nightwave now (and thus much of the content cannot be accessed until you're in the later part of early game).  You can't get reactors, and you're gear limited by mastery rank for some of the best stuff in the game.  If this is the case, why aren't you complaining about that?

The key word you fail to understand is progression.  It's progression to get reactors, slap one on, and grind out a few forma to make that Excalibur not meh.  Input is rewarded.  

Now...what is the progression on focus?  It isn't unlocked until you're through the star chart...because it only starts to unlock when you've accessed the operator.  The operator is not an early game feature.  Cool.  You progress through the game, unlock the operator, then unlock the schools to get access to some interesting builds.  The reason that the focus system doesn't suck rotten eggs is that after you've gotten a deep pool of good things you've now unlocked something new.  The operator introduces the Eidolons, amps, new arcanes, arcanes as a whole originally (Duviri does that now...but it's also DE not understanding the progression of their own game), and most importantly some new functionality.  Cool.  New toys, new time investment, new power.

 

What you're asking for is less investment, and thus less engagement time.  Make note that DE told us this was unacceptable when they refused to decrease the cost of Hema research, impossible with the Sibear costing 30000 cryotic you earn 100 at a time, and disrespected player investment on other items.  Now they're couching this as a benefit...after making the entire process to earning it a joke.  Have two hours?  Slap any school on, go to Duviri experience solo, grind a few easy missions until you can make literal glass frames tankier than Inaros, and in about 25 minutes you can get the 400000 standing to max your daily earnings (on steel path).  Note:

1) That cap is miles larger than it used to be

2) That cap is to a cheaper overall cost to upgrade everything.

3) You can then spend eidolon shards (4 types) to literally do what took months in a long weekend.  

I'm cool with you wanting diverse builds...but your point is stupid.  Before Zenurik we had energy pads and arcane energize.  Don't care for armor, well the answer was 4x armor stripping auras until DE nerfed that, but gave us corrosive and heat procs armor stripping.  Don't like that?  Shattering Impact.  Wow...it's almost like the whole point of awesome focus was to have a huge investment and build more power in...which is intentionally endgame by its definition.  People are constantly complaining about how Warframe has no endgame...and it's because of crap like this.  Something that used to be a high investment and decent reward option is now a requirement to play other content...but because DE slaps crap in they expend huge amounts of energy breaking their own systems and blaming the players for it.

 

 

Let me finish with an anecdote.  We are about to get Grendel Prime.  That's about a two year window between release and prime release.  Have you tried playing those missions again?  Getting a pick-up game sucks...so you have to build yourself to solo them without any mods.  Yikes....that sucks.  Thing is, it's possible to solo with just augments.  Until you realize you can enter the mission on steel path...because why not.  You then get into the mission, and realize that an unmodded primary against a level 46 eximus unit is a joke...because mag dumping them 3 times just barely finished them off.  You then start to contend with those same eximus units not spawning anything else...and getting 800 cryotic took more than half an hour...all because DE implemented those eximus changes and never tested them on content...so you almost need a team just to survive the constantly spawning rattles that take a full tenet cycron mag to put down, coupled with the power carrier spawning cues sucking so hard that 20 enemies spawned has no carrier...so you've gone from full shields to 25% health waiting for any carrier to spawn while enemies literally prioritize the drill over you.  Yes, my anecdote is that DE doesn't seem to know how their own game plays....and it's why I'm not happy despite all of the good stuff this update promises on paper. 

It's amazing that I can look towards all of this good stuff, and see that DE doesn't understand that their endgame is now RNG rolls to get perfect Rivens...and little else.  That's because everything else was sucked down to earlier points.  Arbitrations were great...until you get the last content and discover that they aren't worth doing due to their moderate rewards and high risk with insta-kills.  Steel Path is interesting...until you acknowledge that its only real reward is hiding exilus adapters, some mods, and umbra forma behind a time gated wall.  Sorties and Archon hunts are the definition of bigger numbers <> better rewards.  It's also great to see stuff like "the conservation vendors will now have more companion mods..." until you then read the context that you'll only need one or two of each and thus this is just a new grind to extend relevance of open worlds...which died long ago because once the content was consumed on the content island people stopped giving a crap.  

So yeah, anecdotally DE is selling us less work for the same rewards years later.  That's predictably DE...but doesn't mean that they aren't hip deep in hypocrisy when they pull this crap on us.  I'd be less frustrated if they were giving us something more...but this is just decreasing a grind and, by their own words, insulting the players who already did it.  It's more insulting because they are choosing where player investment matters...and it seems to just be when real money is dumped.  So...maybe if DE wants to make the Hema and Sibear grind suck less I'll bite.  That said, Argo & Vel launched a couple of months ago.  Guess what still isn't in Cephalon Simaris's store?  It's almost like this isn't an elitist jerk saying you should experience the same pain...and instead someone really tired of double standards and making good things with high investment basically required to play the game (and thus required to be cheaper).  I believe the colloquialism is play stupid games, win stupid prizes...and DE is showing that the stupidity of not balancing stuff (and implicitly relying on "broken" features to power through other ones) is really a symptom of profound misunderstanding of basic mechanics...and making high level rewards easier to get is not fixing it.  It's moving the band-aides in the cupboard from the top shelf to the bottom instead of getting a proper blade cover for the bandsaw...in other words a bad solution to a foolish mistake, predicated on not knowing what it is people want...because they know better already.

[(PSN)WF-Djin]

I really like the changes of companions and shields as well as all these general QoL changes. 

The nightwave changes in terms of visibility are also very good. What makes me sad is that we are only getting one noras mix after another. I played the first nightwave series with the wolf, arlo, the glassmaker and so on and they were really fun. Back then you mentioned that such seperate stories are nightwave. With the glassmaker all this was even getting more complex when adding some riddles players have to solve to get to the glassmaker. This was fun and kept players at it. The Mixes which we can play now feel more like an endless intermission. People are just doing the tasks getting bored of repitition. That was the feedback everytime I asked someone of my 800 clan members. This problem is not getting solved by adding new challenges or acts. The trappings, an incredible story behind everything and some content or rewards matching the overall theme of a nightwave series is what people want. Maybe even some rewards which won't be accessible again after one series because thats how a battle pass works in every other game. This would be incentive. 

Another thing is that all player experiences should be improved. Not just the new one also the veterans. The fluctuation of active players is very high in warframe. I recognised this over years observing the login data of my clan members. There were always between 300 and 1000 players with new ones joining every day as well as old ones leaving caused of inactivity every day. Something I hear a lot from other veteran players is that "there is no endgame content and nothing that challenges you. Every update things become more simple for new players and at the same moment ridiculously simple for veterans. There are no raids, no dungeons, no challenging or creative boss mechanics or something like this. Bosses have to be more impressive (and not like some sergeant) and challenging. Instead of kahl missions there should be weekly raids for example. These are just some thoughts about things other games are one up on warframe. EVERYONE of my veteran player friends don't even play the weekly stuff like kahl or the circuit anymore because it simply bores them to not be challenged and to not have a single chance to use all the power you gave our frames over the last years on an appropriate enemy. Warframe should not just be about collecting and processing simple but many tasks. It should be fun even for veterans. Thats what this magnificent game deserves. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by (PSN)WF-Djin

[D-Shear]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb (PSN)WF-Djin:

I really like the changes of companions and shields as well as all these general QoL changes. 

The nightwave changes in terms of visibility are also very good. What makes me sad is that we are only getting one noras mix after another. I played the first nightwave series with the wolf, arlo, the glassmaker and so on and they were really fun. Back then you mentioned that such seperate stories are nightwave. With the glassmaker all this was even getting more complex when adding some riddles players have to solve to get to the glassmaker. This was fun and kept players at it. The Mixes which we can play now feel more like an endless intermission. People are just doing the tasks getting bored of repitition. That was the feedback everytime I asked someone of my 800 clan members. This problem is not getting solved by adding new challenges or acts. The trappings, an incredible story behind everything and some content or rewards matching the overall theme of a nightwave series is what people want. Maybe even some rewards which won't be accessible again after one series because thats how a battle pass works in every other game. This would be incentive. 

Another thing is that all player experiences should be improved. Not just the new one also the veterans. The fluctuation of active players is very high in warframe. I recognised this over years observing the login data of my clan members. There were always between 300 and 1000 players with new ones joining every day as well as old ones leaving caused of inactivity every day. Something I hear a lot from other veteran players is that "there is no endgame content and nothing that challenges you. Every update things become more simple for new players and at the same moment ridiculously simple for veterans. There are no raids, no dungeons, no challenging or creative boss mechanics or something like this. Bosses have to be more impressive (and not like some sergeant) and challenging. Instead of kahl missions there should be weekly raids for example. These are just some thoughts about things other games are one up on warframe. EVERYONE of my veteran player friends don't even play the weekly stuff like kahl or the circuit anymore because it simply bores them to not be challenged and to not have a single chance to use all the power you gave our frames over the last years on an appropriate enemy. Warframe should not just be about collecting and processing simple but many tasks. It should be fun even for veterans. Thats what this magnificent game deserves. 

DE won't change their course. They grab into pockets of the casuals and this is why content is catered to them. Veteran players generate no money for them, because of how monetization works in WF. Veteran players sit on tens of thousands of plat they will never be able to spend on anything, the tennogen offer is also pretty limited compared to other games, so only a finite amount of money to be made there. Their last straw was that despicable heirloom package to squeeze something out of the people, that can't leave the game.

This is why steel path is not rewarding and the shop is very limited. The casual players will always complain of the "unfair advantage" the hardcore player will have, the same will go for raids and any difficult content you want to introduce into a game, where 99% of the playerbase doesn't know what they are even doing ingame. 

Don't get the wrong idea though, DE has the numbers down like no other company. They just generate that much more money by constantly advertising for new players, get them into the game, squeeze a few bucks out of them and rinse and repeat. That doesn't work as well with veteran players.

 

And yes, Warframe is just a Pokedex game. At the end of they day, the only tangible goal set within the borders of the game is to collect everything and fill up that mastery xp. You can set personal goals, sure, but they don't come with a tangible reward. But, to be fair, it has been that way for 10 years now.

Edited October 4, 2023 by D-Shear

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

You seem to not get it...so let me rephrase.  If you want the focus to move from an endgame grind, which unlocks powerful skills, to something that is required in the middle-game because of the tendency for poorly designed enemies to one shot you, then this is a loss of an endgame feature.

 

Now, let me address your comments.  At the beginning of the game you have access to...what exactly?  You can't build out a frame...because you need a bunch of forma.  You can't get most of the aura mods...because they're tied to nightwave now (and thus much of the content cannot be accessed until you're in the later part of early game).  You can't get reactors, and you're gear limited by mastery rank for some of the best stuff in the game.  If this is the case, why aren't you complaining about that?

The key word you fail to understand is progression.  It's progression to get reactors, slap one on, and grind out a few forma to make that Excalibur not meh.  Input is rewarded.  

Now...what is the progression on focus?  It isn't unlocked until you're through the star chart...because it only starts to unlock when you've accessed the operator.  The operator is not an early game feature.  Cool.  You progress through the game, unlock the operator, then unlock the schools to get access to some interesting builds.  The reason that the focus system doesn't suck rotten eggs is that after you've gotten a deep pool of good things you've now unlocked something new.  The operator introduces the Eidolons, amps, new arcanes, arcanes as a whole originally (Duviri does that now...but it's also DE not understanding the progression of their own game), and most importantly some new functionality.  Cool.  New toys, new time investment, new power.

 

What you're asking for is less investment, and thus less engagement time.  Make note that DE told us this was unacceptable when they refused to decrease the cost of Hema research, impossible with the Sibear costing 30000 cryotic you earn 100 at a time, and disrespected player investment on other items.  Now they're couching this as a benefit...after making the entire process to earning it a joke.  Have two hours?  Slap any school on, go to Duviri experience solo, grind a few easy missions until you can make literal glass frames tankier than Inaros, and in about 25 minutes you can get the 400000 standing to max your daily earnings (on steel path).  Note:

1) That cap is miles larger than it used to be

2) That cap is to a cheaper overall cost to upgrade everything.

3) You can then spend eidolon shards (4 types) to literally do what took months in a long weekend.  

I'm cool with you wanting diverse builds...but your point is stupid.  Before Zenurik we had energy pads and arcane energize.  Don't care for armor, well the answer was 4x armor stripping auras until DE nerfed that, but gave us corrosive and heat procs armor stripping.  Don't like that?  Shattering Impact.  Wow...it's almost like the whole point of awesome focus was to have a huge investment and build more power in...which is intentionally endgame by its definition.  People are constantly complaining about how Warframe has no endgame...and it's because of crap like this.  Something that used to be a high investment and decent reward option is now a requirement to play other content...but because DE slaps crap in they expend huge amounts of energy breaking their own systems and blaming the players for it.

 

 

Let me finish with an anecdote.  We are about to get Grendel Prime.  That's about a two year window between release and prime release.  Have you tried playing those missions again?  Getting a pick-up game sucks...so you have to build yourself to solo them without any mods.  Yikes....that sucks.  Thing is, it's possible to solo with just augments.  Until you realize you can enter the mission on steel path...because why not.  You then get into the mission, and realize that an unmodded primary against a level 46 eximus unit is a joke...because mag dumping them 3 times just barely finished them off.  You then start to contend with those same eximus units not spawning anything else...and getting 800 cryotic took more than half an hour...all because DE implemented those eximus changes and never tested them on content...so you almost need a team just to survive the constantly spawning rattles that take a full tenet cycron mag to put down, coupled with the power carrier spawning cues sucking so hard that 20 enemies spawned has no carrier...so you've gone from full shields to 25% health waiting for any carrier to spawn while enemies literally prioritize the drill over you.  Yes, my anecdote is that DE doesn't seem to know how their own game plays....and it's why I'm not happy despite all of the good stuff this update promises on paper. 

It's amazing that I can look towards all of this good stuff, and see that DE doesn't understand that their endgame is now RNG rolls to get perfect Rivens...and little else.  That's because everything else was sucked down to earlier points.  Arbitrations were great...until you get the last content and discover that they aren't worth doing due to their moderate rewards and high risk with insta-kills.  Steel Path is interesting...until you acknowledge that its only real reward is hiding exilus adapters, some mods, and umbra forma behind a time gated wall.  Sorties and Archon hunts are the definition of bigger numbers <> better rewards.  It's also great to see stuff like "the conservation vendors will now have more companion mods..." until you then read the context that you'll only need one or two of each and thus this is just a new grind to extend relevance of open worlds...which died long ago because once the content was consumed on the content island people stopped giving a crap.  

So yeah, anecdotally DE is selling us less work for the same rewards years later.  That's predictably DE...but doesn't mean that they aren't hip deep in hypocrisy when they pull this crap on us.  I'd be less frustrated if they were giving us something more...but this is just decreasing a grind and, by their own words, insulting the players who already did it.  It's more insulting because they are choosing where player investment matters...and it seems to just be when real money is dumped.  So...maybe if DE wants to make the Hema and Sibear grind suck less I'll bite.  That said, Argo & Vel launched a couple of months ago.  Guess what still isn't in Cephalon Simaris's store?  It's almost like this isn't an elitist jerk saying you should experience the same pain...and instead someone really tired of double standards and making good things with high investment basically required to play the game (and thus required to be cheaper).  I believe the colloquialism is play stupid games, win stupid prizes...and DE is showing that the stupidity of not balancing stuff (and implicitly relying on "broken" features to power through other ones) is really a symptom of profound misunderstanding of basic mechanics...and making high level rewards easier to get is not fixing it.  It's moving the band-aides in the cupboard from the top shelf to the bottom instead of getting a proper blade cover for the bandsaw...in other words a bad solution to a foolish mistake, predicated on not knowing what it is people want...because they know better already.

This has been a trend for years now. If you're concerned about progression like this (which is valid), 2018 removing Trials should have been your queue to expect this to happen.

[(PSN)WF-Djin]

The money is no comprehensible argument for me in this case. Every veteran I talked to was and is always buying every package they release in store. In the case of a new player they were just wondering which one they buy and if they are even willing to spend money on this game. Just look at the heirloom packs; every newbe was complaining about pricing and only veterans understood the worth of the content like regal aya. Veterans are more willing to pay... Change my mind 

[(PSN)WF-Djin]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

This has been a trend for years now. If you're concerned about progression like this (which is valid), 2018 removing Trials should have been your queue to expect this to happen.

And thats why I'm not allowed to say my honest opinion on these things even if they are topic of this workshop? I want Warframe to become better not to procrastinate things just because yall arranged with this unexploited potential. 

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)WF-Djin said:

And thats why I'm not allowed to say my honest opinion on these things even if they are topic of this workshop? I want Warframe to become better not to procrastinate things just because yall arranged with this unexploited potential. 

I was merely pointing out that another player was just pissing in the wind with their hope for more real progression instead of pandering to the modern laziness you see in gaming where people just want the dopamine of the rewards/finish line. I can't say I disagree with them though. They bring up valid points and I make feedback the same way, even when I know it won't do anything.

Im not too sure what you're commenting about towards me to be honest.

[(PSN)WF-Djin]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

I was merely pointing out that another player was just pissing in the wind with their hope for more real progression instead of pandering to the modern laziness you see in gaming where people just want the dopamine of the rewards/finish line. I can't say I disagree with them though. They bring up valid points and I make feedback the same way, even when I know it won't do anything.

Im not too sure what you're commenting about towards me to be honest.

Don't remember any dopamine ouput after any content release of this year. If the things already existing are overkill for every enemy in the game what do I need weapons like incarnons for... They are just another newbe service so they can kill high level sp enemys with some mediocre build. The endless possibilitys of modding, customising and playing are what makes the game interesting. But we need real content that and challenging tasks. It cant be another boss with a dozen immortality phases. Let him be freakingly strong in case of suvivability and dps or incredible fast with strategic aoe attacks or let him evolve Düring combat... The list of possibilitys is endless. 

I don't even get why content has always to be doable for every player. Thats not the case in any game. There are always difficult stages but not in warframe cause anyone yesterdays installing the game has the option to get anything even to fight against eidolons or some. Just senseless

Edited October 4, 2023 by (PSN)WF-Djin

[Steel_Rook]

The stat changes are a VERY bold move. I absolutely agree that it's for the better. Just didn't expect DE to have the guts for something like this :) They've always just... buried their heads in the sand and pretended balance issues couldn't be addressed. Just keep old systems rolling along and don't rock the boat. This, though? This is huge.

I agree - basing Warframe buffs on "base" stats not visible to the player was always questionable design. This is objectively better. Reducing the stupidly inflated values on mods isn't a bad idea, either. I mean seriously - Vitality more than quadrupling health was always goofy. I do have to wonder what effect this will have on Vigor, though. Primed Vigor was already pretty powerful, I don't see it mentioned in the mod changes, and it'll have a higher base to work off of.

I still want to see overall balance addressed and power creep reigned in, but this is a good first step. Higher base stats, lower buff percentages, narrower band of performance. Makes balance much easier.

[Hexerin]

5 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

You seem to not get it...so let me rephrase.  If you want the focus to move from an endgame grind, which unlocks powerful skills, to something that is required in the middle-game because of the tendency for poorly designed enemies to one shot you, then this is a loss of an endgame feature.

 

Now, let me address your comments.  At the beginning of the game you have access to...what exactly?  You can't build out a frame...because you need a bunch of forma.  You can't get most of the aura mods...because they're tied to nightwave now (and thus much of the content cannot be accessed until you're in the later part of early game).  You can't get reactors, and you're gear limited by mastery rank for some of the best stuff in the game.  If this is the case, why aren't you complaining about that?

The key word you fail to understand is progression.  It's progression to get reactors, slap one on, and grind out a few forma to make that Excalibur not meh.  Input is rewarded.  

Now...what is the progression on focus?  It isn't unlocked until you're through the star chart...because it only starts to unlock when you've accessed the operator.  The operator is not an early game feature.  Cool.  You progress through the game, unlock the operator, then unlock the schools to get access to some interesting builds.  The reason that the focus system doesn't suck rotten eggs is that after you've gotten a deep pool of good things you've now unlocked something new.  The operator introduces the Eidolons, amps, new arcanes, arcanes as a whole originally (Duviri does that now...but it's also DE not understanding the progression of their own game), and most importantly some new functionality.  Cool.  New toys, new time investment, new power.

 

What you're asking for is less investment, and thus less engagement time.  Make note that DE told us this was unacceptable when they refused to decrease the cost of Hema research, impossible with the Sibear costing 30000 cryotic you earn 100 at a time, and disrespected player investment on other items.  Now they're couching this as a benefit...after making the entire process to earning it a joke.  Have two hours?  Slap any school on, go to Duviri experience solo, grind a few easy missions until you can make literal glass frames tankier than Inaros, and in about 25 minutes you can get the 400000 standing to max your daily earnings (on steel path).  Note:

1) That cap is miles larger than it used to be

2) That cap is to a cheaper overall cost to upgrade everything.

3) You can then spend eidolon shards (4 types) to literally do what took months in a long weekend.  

I'm cool with you wanting diverse builds...but your point is stupid.  Before Zenurik we had energy pads and arcane energize.  Don't care for armor, well the answer was 4x armor stripping auras until DE nerfed that, but gave us corrosive and heat procs armor stripping.  Don't like that?  Shattering Impact.  Wow...it's almost like the whole point of awesome focus was to have a huge investment and build more power in...which is intentionally endgame by its definition.  People are constantly complaining about how Warframe has no endgame...and it's because of crap like this.  Something that used to be a high investment and decent reward option is now a requirement to play other content...but because DE slaps crap in they expend huge amounts of energy breaking their own systems and blaming the players for it.

 

 

Let me finish with an anecdote.  We are about to get Grendel Prime.  That's about a two year window between release and prime release.  Have you tried playing those missions again?  Getting a pick-up game sucks...so you have to build yourself to solo them without any mods.  Yikes....that sucks.  Thing is, it's possible to solo with just augments.  Until you realize you can enter the mission on steel path...because why not.  You then get into the mission, and realize that an unmodded primary against a level 46 eximus unit is a joke...because mag dumping them 3 times just barely finished them off.  You then start to contend with those same eximus units not spawning anything else...and getting 800 cryotic took more than half an hour...all because DE implemented those eximus changes and never tested them on content...so you almost need a team just to survive the constantly spawning rattles that take a full tenet cycron mag to put down, coupled with the power carrier spawning cues sucking so hard that 20 enemies spawned has no carrier...so you've gone from full shields to 25% health waiting for any carrier to spawn while enemies literally prioritize the drill over you.  Yes, my anecdote is that DE doesn't seem to know how their own game plays....and it's why I'm not happy despite all of the good stuff this update promises on paper. 

It's amazing that I can look towards all of this good stuff, and see that DE doesn't understand that their endgame is now RNG rolls to get perfect Rivens...and little else.  That's because everything else was sucked down to earlier points.  Arbitrations were great...until you get the last content and discover that they aren't worth doing due to their moderate rewards and high risk with insta-kills.  Steel Path is interesting...until you acknowledge that its only real reward is hiding exilus adapters, some mods, and umbra forma behind a time gated wall.  Sorties and Archon hunts are the definition of bigger numbers <> better rewards.  It's also great to see stuff like "the conservation vendors will now have more companion mods..." until you then read the context that you'll only need one or two of each and thus this is just a new grind to extend relevance of open worlds...which died long ago because once the content was consumed on the content island people stopped giving a crap.  

So yeah, anecdotally DE is selling us less work for the same rewards years later.  That's predictably DE...but doesn't mean that they aren't hip deep in hypocrisy when they pull this crap on us.  I'd be less frustrated if they were giving us something more...but this is just decreasing a grind and, by their own words, insulting the players who already did it.  It's more insulting because they are choosing where player investment matters...and it seems to just be when real money is dumped.  So...maybe if DE wants to make the Hema and Sibear grind suck less I'll bite.  That said, Argo & Vel launched a couple of months ago.  Guess what still isn't in Cephalon Simaris's store?  It's almost like this isn't an elitist jerk saying you should experience the same pain...and instead someone really tired of double standards and making good things with high investment basically required to play the game (and thus required to be cheaper).  I believe the colloquialism is play stupid games, win stupid prizes...and DE is showing that the stupidity of not balancing stuff (and implicitly relying on "broken" features to power through other ones) is really a symptom of profound misunderstanding of basic mechanics...and making high level rewards easier to get is not fixing it.  It's moving the band-aides in the cupboard from the top shelf to the bottom instead of getting a proper blade cover for the bandsaw...in other words a bad solution to a foolish mistake, predicated on not knowing what it is people want...because they know better already.

My opinion on the focus acquisition tweaks is what I stated and is cemented. As someone who was effectively a "new player" merely months ago, the "new player" experience is still fresh in my mind. Those tweaks directly improve the new player experience, while affecting nothing else. That's really all there is to it, and no thesis paper from a veteran who has probably forgotten how much of a #*!%ing slog the focus grind is will change that.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

That's really all there is to it, and no thesis paper from a veteran who has probably forgotten how much of a #*!%ing slog the focus grind is will change that.

When I farmed Focus, the cap didn't scale and Eidolons weren't in the game yet, with only Greater and normal Lens at my disposal. Even then, it wasn't that bad, because it was meant to be a long-term goal that you worked towards through excess Affinity. If Focus acquisition is a slog, that kind of means that you dislike a core portion of the gameplay and progression given that it's just Affinity.

What @master_of_destiny summed up is quite valid and has merit.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Voltage

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

When I farmed Focus, the cap didn't scale and Eidolons weren't in the game yet, with only Greater and normal Lens at my disposal. Even then, it wasn't that bad, because it was meant to be a long-term goal that you worked towards through excess Affinity. 

What @master_of_destiny summed up is quite valid and has merit.

Yes, and then the game evolved over multiple content updates since then, with new content assuming players have access to the features etc. Using ancient content as the basis for "see, it doesn't need changes, because it worked then!" is just beyond asinine. Do better.

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Yes, and then the game evolved over multiple content updates since then, with new content assuming players have access to the features etc. Using ancient content as the basis for "see, it doesn't need changes, because it worked then!" is just beyond asinine. Do better.

These content updates are later game missions that you're expected to have Focus for. Steel Path is not something for a player who hasn't bothered with Focus. The same goes for Arbitrations and all sorts of other content. The only piece of content that contradicts itself with Focus is Eidolons.

Not everything has to be accessible to players who aren't progressed.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Voltage

[Hexerin]

13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

These content updates are later game missions that you're expected to have Focus for. Steel Path is not something for a player who hasn't bothered with Focus. The same goes for Arbitrations and all sorts of other content. The only piece of content that contradicts itself with Focus is Eidolons.

Not everything has to be accessible to players who aren't progressed.

At any rate, you're clearly as cemented in your opinion as I am in mine, there's no purpose to continuing to debate this with you. However, it's safe to say I'm on the correct side of this, as I agree with making the new player experience better. For whatever reason, you believe "#*!% the new players", and that's really sad.

[FiveN9ne]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

At any rate, you're clearly as cemented in your opinion as I am in mine, there's no purpose to continuing to debate this with you. However, it's safe to say I'm on the correct side of this, as I agree with making the new player experience better. For whatever reason, you believe "#*!% the new players", and that's really sad.

If that's the case why don't we start giving new players 1k instead of 50 plat, more weapon and frame slots, starting endo etc. That will all make the new player experience better...

Edited October 4, 2023 by FiveN9ne

[master_of_destiny]

9 hours ago, Hexerin said:

My opinion on the focus acquisition tweaks is what I stated and is cemented. As someone who was effectively a "new player" merely months ago, the "new player" experience is still fresh in my mind. Those tweaks directly improve the new player experience, while affecting nothing else. That's really all there is to it, and no thesis paper from a veteran who has probably forgotten how much of a #*!%ing slog the focus grind is will change that.

 

You are...just so wrong and stupid for literally telling me what I told you...but couldn't bother to read.

 

Let me ADD attention span this for you.

Progression -> investment of time gives you more power

You are expressing that you are entitled to skip grind.  A grind that was literally months which can now be completed in weeks.  Yeah, you want that faster.

You complain that I don't know what I am talking about...because I am a veteran.  A reason I cited and addressed...but you are too lazy to read.

 

Let me now show you the same respect you showed me by responding to a quote, short sighting everything, then literally parroting things I've answered because you are too lazy.  This game will chew you up, and I look forward to it.  Anyone too short sighted to see veterans raising issues as a red flag will jump ship soon enough, and I look forward to that day.  Go be a statistic.