Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: System Changes and General Quality of Life

[MortalMercenary]

On 2023-09-28 at 9:43 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Thank you for sharing! I did a sense check with the working document and it looks like I had improperly transcribed the following values:

Grendel - Max Rank Health: 1295
Inaros - Max Rank Health: 2310
Inaros Prime - Max Rank Health: 2415
Kullervo - Max Rank Health: 1205 
Lavos - Max Rank Health: 740
Xaku - Max Rank Health: 359

As this is a dev workshop, values are still subject to change up until release, but I figured it was worth updating due to the valid discrepancies you pointed out. :) 

edit: the main post has also been updated with changed values in bold, for clarity!

With triple umbral Grendel is still seeing a slight loss in total EHP with the changes

Frame

EHP

HP

ARMOR

SHIELDS

Grendel	16,290	3,626	1,036	95
Grendel Pre	16,609	3,745	1,023	75

 

Edit: my EHP formula was wrong but Grendel is still seeing a minor loss in EHP which I mean Grendel prime is dropping but still. This also means in a theoretical world before these changes Grendel Prime might also be seeing a small EHP hit.

Edited October 1, 2023 by MortalMercenary

[Hexerin]

On 2023-09-28 at 1:42 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

Shield gate changes overall look great, but I have one thing I'm hoping to clarify because I can't tell based on the wording: does the "partially depleted shields" scaling of shield gate duration only apply after shields have been fully depleted until shields have been fully recovered again?  I'm guessing that's the case, because otherwise higher max shields wouldn't necessarily correlate to longer shield gates, but wanted to double-check.

In other words, are these 2 scenarios correct?

• My shields are full at 1000.  I take a hit that reduces them to 500.  I then take another hit that wipes them out.  My shield gate duration is based on 1000 shields.
• My shield cap is 1000, but my shields are currently empty.  They regenerate to 500.  At that point, I receive a hit that wipes out my shields again.  My shield gate duration is based on 500 shields.

Thanks!

On 2023-09-28 at 3:31 PM, (PSN)Adeak said:

Seconding this concern.

It's amazing that we still don't have clarification on this.

On 2023-09-28 at 7:04 PM, Sh0ckwaveFlash said:

Not anymore - adaptation builds stacks during iron skin now, and adaptation damage resistance applies only to health, not overguard or shields. This lets you health tank in between 2nd ability casts, in addition to making great utility out of triple umbral bonuses. 

Adaptation applies to health, shields, and overshields. The only thing it doesn't apply to is overguard.

[Aazhyd]

Quote

Look for these Duviri-inspired Acts in the next Nightwave series! 

I hate these already. Forcing us to do specific content and then do irrelevant boring tasks. No no no.

[ShogunGunshow]

38 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

It's amazing that we still don't have clarification on this.

The workshop is perfectly clear. You gain invincibility based on whatever shields you had when you received the shield-breaking damage. It doesn't matter if you let your shields go to max or not, because they specifically say "Part 2 - Partially Depleted Shields do not have a separate Shield Gate Duration."

[Hexerin]

6 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

The workshop is perfectly clear. You gain invincibility based on whatever shields you had when you received the shield-breaking damage. It doesn't matter if you let your shields go to max or not, because they specifically say "Part 2 - Partially Depleted Shields do not have a separate Shield Gate Duration."

Try reading further.

Quote

Now, Partially Depleted Shields will be treated with the same scaling values outlined above. For example, if you had a max Shield value of 1200, but your Shields were broken with only 350 available, you would receive ~1.3 seconds of Shield Gating!

This leaves the question of whether or not it takes into account the total regenerated shields since last depletion, or if it only looks at the shield value you had when you took the specific hit that zeroed your shields. If it's the former, then the new system is great! However, the text implies the latter, which means that the new shield gate is still completely worthless if something that attacks extremely fast but with small hits jumps you. Such an enemy will beat down your shields to next to nothing before breaking them, leaving you the minimum shield gate (0.33s) before then melting your tiny health pool (because shield built frames won't build health/armor).

[ShogunGunshow]

It only looks at the shield value you had when you took the specific hit that zeroed your shields. That's what the text says. 

[634982]

Make the new mod an exilus mod, that way it can compete with Primed Sure Footed for the slot otherwise the only frames affected by the changes are frames that aren't strong enough to have one less mod slot. Also using the decaying dragon key was a band aid for not having good ways to regenerate shield therefore being forced to use augur mods and brief respite, which this update doesn't address so modding for shield capacity will still be useless.

[GeorgeFernell]

Holly molly! Someone from DE finally logged into the game and looked at the mod screen! UNBELIEVABLE! Only took 10 years!

In all seriousness, this is excellent, but a missed opportunity to bring up minimum base survivability to 500 HP / 500 SHIELD.
These changes help with readability, but HP of Warframes is still binary. You get hit once -> shield gate -> hit 2nd time -> you are dead.
DR Stacking need to be smashed with a nerf hammer and HP values need to be brought a ton up to make support Warframes, healing abilities & mods viable again.
Currently you have 500 base HP with 90% DR from adaptation and your choice of 90% DR ability and you go to 50 000 EHP.
No moding screen with show this to a player.

[ShogunGunshow]

8 minutes ago, GeorgeFernell said:

Holly molly! Someone from DE finally logged into the game and looked at the mod screen! UNBELIEVABLE! Only took 10 years!

In all seriousness, this is excellent, but a missed opportunity to bring up minimum base survivability to 500 HP / 500 SHIELD.
These changes help with readability, but HP of Warframes is still binary. You get hit once -> shield gate -> hit 2nd time -> you are dead.
DR Stacking need to be smashed with a nerf hammer and HP values need to be brought a ton up to make support Warframes, healing abilities & mods viable again.
Currently you have 500 base HP with 90% DR from adaptation and your choice of 90% DR ability and you go to 50 000 EHP.
No moding screen with show this to a player.

The great nerfening of multiplying bonuses is something I thought might be coming after the ammo economy changes and the nerf to AoE spam last year.

But then DE went and released incarnon adapters, which make some guns so broken they make the Kuva Zarr look like a baby's toy in comparison, and don't care about ammo at all.

So I wouldn't really hold my breath on them making common sense changes like that to survivability. 

[ShogunGunshow]

But really, in all seriousness, I wish that the invulnerability window wasn't based on how many shields you had when the breaking shot hit, but how much shield damage you took over the last 1-2 seconds or since your last shield break, whichever is sooner.

[(PSN)Adeak]

1 hour ago, ShogunGunshow said:

It only looks at the shield value you had when you took the specific hit that zeroed your shields. That's what the text says. 

Which basically makes it worthless. Sure, you could get max gate duration if you take one massive hit, but if you happen to get brought down to single-digit shields before having them finished then you're screwed.

[AziSlays]

"Critical Multipliers (and other modifiers) applying post damage cap allowed for many of the One Shot builds to function, and for full transparency, we want to prevent One Shot Archon builds as much as possible"

If you don't want people to skip through your content for highly desired rewards then I suggest making that content even the slightest bit fun in any way at all. Until then we're either gonna find ways to keep circumventing your changes and skip these godawful "fights" or we will simply decide that content is no longer worth our time to do.

[AxilliaPrime]

3 hours ago, MortalMercenary said:

With triple umbral Kullervo and Grendel are still seeing a slight loss in total EHP with the changes

 

Frame

EHP

HP

ARMOR

SHIELDS

 

Kullervo	6,271	3,374	1,820	0
Kullervo Pre	6,292	3,477	1,275	0

 

Grendel	6,580	3,626	1,036	95
Grendel Pre	6,735	3,745	1,023	75

 

 

Kullervo Pre: 1275 armor = 80.95% damage reduction / effective health multiplier: 5.25x / 3377 x 5.25 = 17729.25
Kullervo: 1820 armor = 85.85% damage reduction / effective health multiplier: 7.07x / 3374 x 7.07 = 23854.18

Grendel Pre: 1023 armor = 77.32% damage reduction / effective health multiplier: 4.41x / 3745 x 4.41 = 16515.45
Grendel 1036 armor =  77.54%  damage reduction / effective health multiplier: 4.45x / 3626 x 4.45 = 16135.7

don't really know how to factor in shields into correct EHP calculations.... but 75 at a factor of 1.25x does seem smaller than 95 at a factor of 1.50x

so, while you can argue grendel might have gotten a slight nerf, kullervo actually got a quite sizable buff.

and don't forget "who cares about base grendel when grendel prime releases the same patch?"

[ShogunGunshow]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Adeak said:

Which basically makes it worthless. Sure, you could get max gate duration if you take one massive hit, but if you happen to get brought down to single-digit shields before having them finished then you're screwed.

Which is why I wish that the gate was based on the amount of shield damage you took in the last second or two instead.

[(PSN)Adeak]

6 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Which is why I wish that the gate was based on the amount of shield damage you took in the last second or two instead.

I mean, that can easily fall into the same problem. They could fix it by making it based on how much of your max you've regenned since your late gate.

[GeorgeFernell]

51 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

But then DE went and released incarnon adapters, which make some guns so broken they make the Kuva Zarr look like a baby's toy in comparison, and don't care about ammo at all.

So I wouldn't really hold my breath on them making common sense changes like that to survivability. 

Well I think the incarnns dilema is DE giving up on players being "overpowered" idea. I think they know that they are incapable of balancing the game so at least let it be fun, and fun it is, mostly.

As for the other part, as I was saying a year ago, and it seems my hopes are not being betrayed:
Duviri was last project with Steve at the helm, he basically took one last revenge jab at us and shoved a Soulframe demo into Warframe.
Now that Reb is in charge I believe she will clean house and this extensive patch to Pets UI, Hydroid etc seems to be doing just that!
Might of course be just a happy coincidence, just like Wisp patch, and we will have 3 more years of no QoL improvements, but ill keep my optimism for 1 more patch :)

[(PSN)Adeak]

17 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

"Critical Multipliers (and other modifiers) applying post damage cap allowed for many of the One Shot builds to function, and for full transparency, we want to prevent One Shot Archon builds as much as possible"

If you don't want people to skip through your content for highly desired rewards then I suggest making that content even the slightest bit fun in any way at all. Until then we're either gonna find ways to keep circumventing your changes and skip these godawful "fights" or we will simply decide that content is no longer worth our time to do.

I would like to also bring attention to this and invoke Grod's Law: "You can not and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use."

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2023-09-28 at 3:35 PM, KitMeHarder said:

Not to dampen the good work, but toxin can be/still is build killing when it comes to shields.

I shouldn't be able to round a conner as a Mag with 2,000+ shields and get insta-killed by one tick of a toxin eximus aura. And playing against something like sisters or liches really exacerbates how bad this issue is. All these buffs do little in the face of only one build type still having to worry about one-shots, but not the others.

I disagree here. Toxin is a proc we could prepare for with resistance mods and arcanes. Not wanting to utilize those mods should not be a call to change this, especially when we're talking about high level Steel Path toxin damage. We have way too many solutions to the toxin attack and we should allow the game to give us this obstacle to overcome. 

[KitMeHarder]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Toxin is a proc we could prepare for with resistance mods and arcanes.

Except that health builds effectively don't need to prepare for it, that's the point.

• And not just procs bypass shields, but toxin damage in general. Something like Arcane Resistance does nothing.
• And toxin resist mods do very little (ignoring the fact health tank build don't need to equip them). There's a reason shieldgate gives 100% damage immunity, and not just ~50% damage reduction. Because otherwise it'd be near worthless.

If DE wants build diversity, only one build can't have a fatal flaw. Even ignoring diversity, they intentionally design frames that only want shields, like Hildryn, Harrow, Mag, etc... so it's still a problem. (I.E. solution) I'd be fine with toxin damage bypassing shields so we still need to heal up, but it can't outright kill us if we have shields up.

23 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

We have way too many solutions to the toxin attack

Two worthless mods and an arcane that effectively doesn't work?

[quxier]

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

•  

Additionally, all Convergence Orbs will offer a flat 5,000 Focus bonus to your equipped Focus School upon pickup. 

Will those be affected via Exp booster? Because Angel/trhax kill isn't affected by the booster.

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Firstly - we’re buffing Tenno Shields overall!

Previously: Tenno Shields offered a 25% resistance to all damage types.

Now: Tenno Shields will offer a 50% resistance to all damage types. 

We’re also buffing a few Shield-specific Mods with Recharge rate in mind! 
(values below are at max rank)

• Fast Deflection: added -45% Shield Recharge Delay
• Fortitude: increased the Shield Recharge value from +80% to +100%. 
  • Also increased Chance to Resist Knockdown from +20% to +40%. 
• Vigilante Vigor: added -30% Shield Recharge Delay

These Mod buffs feed directly into the other half of our approach:

What about Recharge delay?

Quote

Shields naturally recharge, but there is a recharge delay imposed whenever struck. Partial Tenno shields regenerate after 1 second of not taking damage, while fully depleted Tenno shields require 4 seconds of not taking damage before regenerating

So if I take ANY damage Shield still won't start recharging immediately? If that's the case, I think above mods won't be used often. Why bother with "reducing shield delay" and taking cover constantly, when I can simply use augur set & co to replenish full or at least some big part. And those mods (augur set) provide even more bonuses (e.g. +30% range or +24% strength).

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Part 3 - We’re adding a new Corrupted Mod: Catalyzing Shields

With the changes to Shield Gating, we still want to offer players different ways to interact with this system without always having to Mod for the most Shields possible. To accomplish this, we are introducing a new Corrupted Mod: Catalyzing Shields.

Bravo! Remove some weird interaction (Dragon key) and introduce it in "proper" way (mod). I wish such open mindness will persist.

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

---

Base vs Final Stats in Modding - Health / Energy / Shield / Armor Stat Overhaul
If you’ve spent any time invested in the deeper nuances of Modding, you may be familiar with “Warframe Math” -- math that upon first glance doesn’t really make sense, but once you learn the inner workings of the game, it all comes together. While we can appreciate the value that complex systems offer to a certain subsect of players, there are other aspects of the game that should have clear and understandable outcomes. Namely: Shield, Health, Energy, and Armor Modding. 

In Abyss of Dagath, we want to remove this obfuscation by having Health, Shield, Energy, and Armor Mods apply to the stats of Warframes at their current rank. Continuing our Excalibur example, instead of Vitality always applying to Excalibur’s base rank 100 Health, it would apply to his Health stat based on his rank -- namely, the stat you can actually see in your Arsenal. If your Excalibur were Rank 30, his Health stat would be 300, which means Vitality’s multiplier would be calculated off of 300. 

Can we do this with other stats as well? Such as (I probably forgotten some):

- Cast time:

For example about Natural tallent that should give you 50% cast speed:

Quote

The calculation for casting time is (Base Time) ÷ (1.00 + Speed Bonus). At maximum rank, expect a ~33% reduction in casting time.

That's counter-intuitive. That should be something like:

Quote

 

if minimum-time >  (base-time * (percentage bonus 1 + percentage bonus 2 + .... + percentage bonus 3)

then cast-time = minimum-time

otherwise cast-time = (base-time * (percentage bonus 1 + percentage bonus 2 + .... + percentage bonus 3)

 

That way you get understandable formula and minimum time (e.g. it cannot go below 0 or below engine limits).

- same for magazine reload, heavy attack wind speed

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Archon Hunt Damage Attenuation Changes

Sweet. Not having to do only few builds (of weapons) is huge improvements. I wish survivavality get a pass too.

On 2023-09-28 at 6:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

 

Swap Incarnon Evolutions in the Arsenal

Good.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by quxier
start recharging typo

[D-Shear]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb GeorgeFernell:

Well I think the incarnns dilema is DE giving up on players being "overpowered" idea. I think they know that they are incapable of balancing the game so at least let it be fun, and fun it is, mostly.

As for the other part, as I was saying a year ago, and it seems my hopes are not being betrayed:
Duviri was last project with Steve at the helm, he basically took one last revenge jab at us and shoved a Soulframe demo into Warframe.
Now that Reb is in charge I believe she will clean house and this extensive patch to Pets UI, Hydroid etc seems to be doing just that!
Might of course be just a happy coincidence, just like Wisp patch, and we will have 3 more years of no QoL improvements, but ill keep my optimism for 1 more patch :)

They really need to stop with those experiments. Duviri is the worst and unfun content island in the whole game. It probably also wasted alot of resources compared to the other open worlds. I just can't say this enough, but Angels of Zariman is the peak formula for a content island. 

Compact standing system with a good feeling curve in unlocking the rewards and utilizing the shop after for trading.

No bs in acquiring resources and standing. Just get in there, blast enemies, blast the void angel and repeat.

Well made and fun new game modes (except that defense one perhaps, but exterminate with angels and void cascade are just so fun to play)

Very pretty and well structured tileset.

Compared to duviri it probably cost so much less resources to develop, but it's infinitely more fun for the players. If they could just stick to that formula and stop releasing these annoying "open worlds"...

vor 3 Stunden schrieb AziSlays:

"Critical Multipliers (and other modifiers) applying post damage cap allowed for many of the One Shot builds to function, and for full transparency, we want to prevent One Shot Archon builds as much as possible"

If you don't want people to skip through your content for highly desired rewards then I suggest making that content even the slightest bit fun in any way at all. Until then we're either gonna find ways to keep circumventing your changes and skip these godawful "fights" or we will simply decide that content is no longer worth our time to do.

I agree so much on that, but the reality is, DE knows how bad their content is, that is why they began to gate core rewards behind them. Archon Hunts and Kahl have Archon Shards, they are not tradeable or to be acquired in any other way. If you want to continue having fun in building and pushing your warframes, you HAVE to do it. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by D-Shear

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Except that health builds effectively don't need to prepare for it, that's the point.

• And not just procs bypass shields, but toxin damage in general. Something like Arcane Resistance does nothing.
• And toxin resist mods do very little (ignoring the fact health tank build don't need to equip them). There's a reason shieldgate gives 100% damage immunity, and not just ~50% damage reduction. Because otherwise it'd be near worthless.

If DE wants build diversity, only one build can't have a fatal flaw. Even ignoring diversity, they intentionally design frames that only want shields, like Hildryn, Harrow, Mag, etc... so it's still a problem. (I.E. solution) I'd be fine with toxin damage bypassing shields so we still need to heal up, but it can't outright kill us if we have shields up.

Two worthless mods and an arcane that effectively doesn't work?

.... Except they DO work and so does operator mode, Vazarin and Rolling Guard. Come to think of it, when we're at the point to where we can't react to toxin ticks in time, that's the exact point where rolling guard+shield gate would be nearly mandatory in most scenarios...well, unless you're refusing to use health and armor mods to support the fight against toxin. If your build relied to heavily on low health/low shield, then you got too comfortable making toxin your bane. 

[D-Shear]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PSN)GEN-Son_17:

.... Except they DO work and so does operator mode, Vazarin and Rolling Guard. Come to think of it, when we're at the point to where we can't react to toxin ticks in time, that's the exact point where rolling guard+shield gate would be nearly mandatory in most scenarios...well, unless you're refusing to use health and armor mods to support the fight against toxin. If your build relied to heavily on low health/low shield, then you got too comfortable making toxin your bane. 

I get where you want to go with your argumentation, but the harsh reality is, warframes just have 8 mod and 2 arcane slots. 

If you want to have ANY semblance of a (fun to play) build, you literally can't mod for health or shields, even more so because they are useless in SP. The game just isn't balanced like that. They try to get away with these bandaid fixes, because they are too lazy to restructure enemy stats and abilities. And surprise, this update will rob the bulk of all warframes of another mod slot, just to get back a baseline mechanic, that was perfectly fine and saved many frames from being borderline unplayable (or at the very least, very unfun to play).

But just to give you another quick heads up on that toxin situation: On steel path they deal such ludicrous damage, that you even get oneshot through 1k health in the early level and now you can list all warframes that even reach 900 with vitality slotted. You literally can't circumvent high level toxin damage with health, it's not possible and as the other guy stated, the mods and the arcanes are bugged for toxin damage, they don't work. And even if they would, it would be absolutely horrible to have to fit them into your build. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

So if I take ANY damage Shield still won't recharge immediately? If that's the case, I think above mods won't be used often. Why bother with "reducing shield delay" and taking cover constantly, when I can simply use augur set & co to replenish full or at least some big part. And those mods (augur set) provide even more bonuses (e.g. +30% range or +24% strength)

Except for the Aegis arcane or the full auger+recharge mods set, our shields never immediately regen after taking a hit. They shouldn't because we are supposed to dodge, escape and/or take  cover to allow the shields to reboot and recharge.

What's nice about this new system is that more shields = less delay AND faster recharging. This means that auger and recharge mods would be insanely effective with rolling guard, Vazarin school and the companion shield charger mods. 

[KitMeHarder]

57 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

.... Except they DO work and so does operator mode, Vazarin and Rolling Guard.

So your solution is spamming short lived invulnerability sources?

58 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Come to think of it, when we're at the point to where we can't react to toxin ticks in time, that's the exact point where rolling guard+shield gate would be nearly mandatory in most scenarios...well, unless you're refusing to use health and armor mods to support the fight against toxin. If your build relied to heavily on low health/low shield, then you got too comfortable making toxin your bane.

I get the feeling you don't quite understand how toxin damage works... nor my point. I.E. Why should I put health/armor mods on my shield tank build, when I don't (there's little reason to) put shield mods on health tank builds?

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Toxin_Damage