Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

11 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Steel Path was added as a hard mode, buffing players will make it easier and even more if it's used as the measure stick. Just like Nightmare missions were endgame at some point before powercreep made them trivial and the same happened later to Sorties, Arbitrations, and seems to be slowly happening to SP so i wouldn't be surprised to eventually see going full cycle once again. 

Steel path was actually specifically added to let players replicate those high lv endurance without spending 8+ hours to get to it, thats why the lvls start at 100+ the base and have increased health and armor values. Id also like to point out shield gating came out before steel path was added, with how accessible shield gate builds endurance runs grew in popularity but people did not like the long wait that came with it hence the addition to sp.

 

39 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

When did asking for exploits (such as Decaying Dragon Key) to be fixed become "gatekeeping"? 

It did once you said that warframe is meant to only be a casual game.

 

41 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Trying to impose others how to play? Of course if i'm able to take down SP lvl500 enemies or whatever with my lato (extreme case) i'll see no reason to mod it in a way where it struggles in normal starmap earth.

Nice, now youre trying to twist it. You where the one using lvl cap as a benchmark implying that everyone should aim for that.

 

18 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'd normally give the benefot of doubt and think positively but, seeing how you ask to not use a benchmark just because it goes against your point makes me think of the latter.

Yea a benchmark that all the other alternatives cant reach and never could so using it as a means to gatekeep other methods of survival instead of bringing up the other methods was my entire point.

[----Legacy----]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea a benchmark that all the other alternatives cant reach and never could so using it as a means to gatekeep other methods of survival instead of bringing up the other methods was my entire point.

It's almost as if we weren't supposed to get there so having builds allowing us to do this should be toned down instead of bringing everything else up instead and make the whole game even easier in the process.

So your point is just a convoluted way to say "Nerf nothing, buff everything instead"

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 18 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Steel path was actually specifically added to let players replicate those high lv endurance without spending 8+ hours to get to it, thats why the lvls start at 100+ the base and have increased health and armor values.

Exactly, because players have enough power to deal with everything in the game so the only way to get a sense of challenge was waiting hours in a mission for the fun to begin.

Making players stronger in terms of either durability or damage output can only lead to SP becoming the norm and eventually get us back to the point where the only way to get challenged is waiting for hours in an endurance mission but now with SP modifiers like happened before with nightmare missions, sorties, arbitrations, etc. Shield gating in its current state enables easy to reset damage immunity which is a step back in the sense of challenging players.

hace 28 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

It did once you said that warframe is meant to only be a casual game.

That's the DE's view, not mine. They've said that on stream quite some times and how they usually develop new content in levels that are also accessible to new players is further proof of that. That said, the current iteration of shield gating is obviously an oversight that allows to negate all incoming damage, making enemy damage output meaningless, so of course it's gonna be fixed no matter how you hate it even if DE took far too long to fix it and you grew fond of it.

hace 34 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Nice, now youre trying to twist it. You where the one using lvl cap as a benchmark implying that everyone should aim for that.

Care to point where did i say anything that can be read as implying that "everyone should aim for level cap" and the mental gymnastics used to get from said statement to your conclusion?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Making players stronger in terms of either durability or damage output can only lead to SP becoming the norm and eventually get us back to the point where the only way to get challenged is waiting for hours in an endurance mission but now with SP modifiers like happened before with nightmare missions, sorties, arbitrations, etc. Shield gating in its current state enables easy to reset damage immunity which is a step back in the sense of challenging players.

And keeping players at the same exact power lvl results in the norm never changing and nothing can ever be challenging because any new content cant be too difficult otherwise it becomes impossible, but once you hit where the content cant get anymore difficult it gets boring real fast because once a player beats it then thats it no more challenge after that, so what happens next is because of how boring the new content gets players will want to optimize their loadouts get through that new content as fast as possible to get the new gear and potentially alleviate that boredom. This is why there is so much demand for challenging content but whenever we do end up with something relatively difficult it gets tuned done real quick because some casual players complain about it being too difficult and if our equipment ever gets too strong that too must get brought down becasue you cant increase the difficulty of the content otherwise the mr 1 excals wont be able to handle it, its because of this gatekeeping that there can never be any challenging content.

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

That said, the current iteration of shield gating is obviously an oversight that allows to negate all incoming damage, making enemy damage output meaningless, so of course it's gonna be fixed no matter how you hate it even if DE took far too long to fix it and you grew fond of it.

Funny you think that but t its actually not getting "fixed", its being streamlined and outright buffed.

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Care to point where did i say anything that can be read as implying that "everyone should aim for level cap" and the mental gymnastics used to get from said statement to your conclusion?

Sure.

20 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Shield gate builds exist because at levels high enough, player HP and Armor don't matter, so even if gloom keeps enemies slow and your HP maxed as long as you deal damage, there comes a ppikt where a single stray bullet os enough to delete a player's HP bar 

Which implies players should/are reaching those points regularly enough that they have to worry about it.

 

 

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 23 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

And keeping players at the same exact power lvl results in the norm never changing and nothing can ever be challenging because any new content cant be too difficult otherwise it becomes impossible

Nonsense. Keeping a defined power level for all players allows devs to know player capabilities and develop content to push their limits.

hace 23 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

once you hit where the content cant get anymore difficult it gets boring real fast because once a player beats it then thats it no more challenge after that, so what happens next is because of how boring the new content gets players will want to optimize their loadouts get through that new content as fast as possible to get the new gear and potentially alleviate that boredom.

Tmw this is the current state of warframe and the reason why DE changed the focus towards challenging player patience by increasing the grind instead. Just some food for thought.

hace 23 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

This is why there is so much demand for challenging content but whenever we do end up with something relatively difficult it gets tuned done real quick because some casual players complain about it being too difficult and if our equipment ever gets too strong that too must get brought down becasue you cant increase the difficulty of the content otherwise the mr 1 excals wont be able to handle it, its because of this gatekeeping that there can never be any challenging content.

You got everything wrong (again). The demand for challenging content comes exactly because we can already take on enemies in levels much higher than what we should be able to reach due to how out of hand is our power. It happened to different activities which where meant as some sort of challenge for players back in their day (once again, nightmare missions, sorties, arbitrations and perhaps some more) and is slowly happening to SP as well with the addition of new more powerful gear and buffs to player durability.

The "never nerf, only buff" mindset from a loud chunk of the playerbase is what keeps the game unable to get any sort of challenge.

hace 23 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Funny you think that but t its actually not getting "fixed", its being streamlined and outright buffed.

What's getting fixed is the ability to use the gear wheel as a free slot to exploit the system; the change is still an overall (unneeded) buff to player survivability which is bound to make the game easier.

 

hace 23 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

hace 2 horas, Stormhawkaro dijo:

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Nice, now youre trying to twist it. You where the one using lvl cap as a benchmark implying that everyone should aim for that.

Care to point where did i say anything that can be read as implying that "everyone should aim for level cap" and the mental gymnastics used to get from said statement to your conclusion?

Sure

hace 22 horas, Stormhawkaro dijo:

Shield gate builds exist because at levels high enough, player HP and Armor don't matter, so even if gloom keeps enemies slow and your HP maxed as long as you deal damage, there comes a ppikt where a single stray bullet os enough to delete a player's HP bar

Which implies players should/are reaching those points regularly enough that they have to worry about it.

Oh, you're funny and blatantly taking quotes out of context.

You claim that i was saying that everyone should aim for level cap as a benchmark and then proceed to quote a post in which lvl cap isn't even mentioned..

I never said that players should aim for levels where life bar becomes a binary value either; what i've actually said several times (and also seen others mention) is that there's certain content which we aren't supposed to reach (such as level cap) and that shield gating builds allow players to survive in that content, which only (further) proves how poorly balanced is warframe.

Guess you won't even try to have an honest discussion at this point seeing how you only keep repeating yourself, using all sorts of fallacies to justify your points after these are debunked, moving goalposts, twisting what others said, and even downplaying the dumbest method of survival in the game atm even though it's so dumb that it's about to be changed.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

7 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Nonsense. Keeping a defined power level for all players allows devs to know player capabilities and develop content to push their limits.

If said power lvl is constant and never changes then there is nothing to push further. Once the limit is reached the ony way to go further is to is to increase the power lvl and if you do that all prior content can become very easily trivialized, keeping a constant defined power lvl is just not possible for a constituently expanding mmo.

 

32 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

You got everything wrong (again). The demand for challenging content comes exactly because we can already take on enemies in levels much higher than what we should be able to reach due to how out of hand is our power. It happened to different activities which where meant as some sort of challenge for players back in their day (once again, nightmare missions, sorties, arbitrations and perhaps some more) and is slowly happening to SP as well with the addition of new more powerful gear and buffs to player durability.

Do you know the reason why guns now have an arcane slots and galvanized mods? Its because guns just could not deal with sp units so they needed to be buffed in order to be usable. This exact situation would happen with a constant defined power lvl too, there will eventually be a point player equipment wont be able to handle the tougher content and it then comes down the players skill and knowledge of all the games mechanics to deal with it which at that point kinda goes against the casual experience warframe is meant to be.  You cant continuously keep increasing difficulty forever without also increasing the power of the player and if you dont increase either then the game will very boring very quickly.

 

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

I never said that players should aim for levels where life bar becomes a binary value either; what i've actually said several times (and also seen others mention) is that there's certain content which we aren't supposed to reach (such as level cap) and that shield gating builds allow players to survive in that content, which only (further) proves how poorly balanced is warframe.

If youre not supposed to go higher than shield gating would have never been added, what would have been done instead to deal with the one hits is just significantly reduce the lvl cap enemies to the lvl you are supposed to get to. And as Ive said in content youre "supposed" to be playing health tank builds require far less effort than shield gate builds and this is coming from someone who almost always health ranks, highest Id normally go up to is about an hour maybe 2 sp surv and it is braindead easy and way more than shield gating. Shield gate build are easy too but definitely not easier than health tanking so there really is no reason to use it over health tank builds except for some extra mod space for a bit extra power which is also completely unnecessary. And as for shield gate builds allowing you to survive lvl cap, so what? There is literally zero incentive to do so you get nothing special and there will never be anything extra so, so what if somewhat wants to go to lvl cap why gatekeep that. 

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 11 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

If said power lvl is constant and never changes then there is nothing to push further. Once the limit is reached the ony way to go further is to is to increase the power lvl and if you do that all prior content can become very easily trivialized, keeping a constant defined power lvl is just not possible for a constituently expanding mmo.

Seems like player skill is a foreign term for you. Two players of different skill levels can use the exact same setup and still perform differently and  pushing gear beyond its limits is where challenge begins. 

hace 14 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Do you know the reason why guns now have an arcane slots and galvanized mods? Its because guns just could not deal with sp units so they needed to be buffed in order to be usable.

I defeated SP on my main account before guns got arcanes without relying on the old melee combo counter that multiplied damage on all hits and think that the "only melee works in SP" argument was just a an excuse from bad players to get weapons buffed and compensating for the melee nerf sounded good.

Fwiw, i mostly used Vectis Prime since its (headshot) damage ramps up rather quickly as long as the player can keep hitting enemies with it, its innate punch through allows to kill rows of enemies per shot which can be easily maximized through positioned and that's without even mentioning warframe powers.

But then DE showed usage stats where the most used weapons are AoE (and Wukong as the most used frame) which quickly explains why players claimed that guns can't deal with SP enemies (hint: the ones that can do that before gun arcanes and galvanized mods require aiming, a skill borderline forgotten in this shooter)

hace 37 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

This exact situation would happen with a constant defined power lvl too, there will eventually be a point player equipment wont be able to handle the tougher content and it then comes down the players skill and knowledge of all the games mechanics to deal with it which at that point kinda goes against the casual experience warframe is meant to be.

First: care to point where did i mention a "constant defined power level"? Because i'm certain i never used "constant" only "defined" when talking about power levels and that alone makes a huge difference since "constant" is something added by yourself in yet another dishonest argument by making it look like i was talking about a stiff concept when i wasn't.

Second: Even the most casual games have some degree of difficulty which relies on player skill and knowledge about the mechanics to fulfill an objective so that's just a misconception of yours.

hace 37 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

You cant continuously keep increasing difficulty forever without also increasing the power of the player and if you dont increase either then the game will very boring very quickly.

Again, that's why i never talked about a "constant defined power level" (that was your own addition) but about a "defined power ceiling" instead. A defined power ceiling can be elevated as new harder content is developed which is what pretty much most MMOs do (add expansion with harder content and also increase level caps to a point where the content becomes manageable as long as the player also posseses certain skills).

The issue with warframe is the power ceiling not being defined but still way higher than the content being released by the devs.

hace 53 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

If youre not supposed to go higher than shield gating would have never been added

Shield gating was added a way to prevent instakills from full EHP since shields were pointless, not as an attempt to let players exploit it and become immortal.

hace 53 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

what would have been done instead to deal with the one hits is just significantly reduce the lvl cap enemies to the lvl you are supposed to get to.

I think a full rebalance to define a power ceiling for enemies and players would have been a much better approach, it just requires a lot more of effort and the constant addition of gear and mechanics only make the task even bigger.

hace 53 minutos, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

And as Ive said in content youre "supposed" to be playing health tank builds require far less effort than shield gate builds and this is coming from someone who almost always health ranks, highest Id normally go up to is about an hour maybe 2 sp surv and it is braindead easy and way more than shield gating. Shield gate build are easy too but definitely not easier than health tanking so there really is no reason to use it over health tank builds except for some extra mod space for a bit extra power which is also completely unnecessary. And as for shield gate builds allowing you to survive lvl cap, so what? There is literally zero incentive to do so you get nothing special and there will never be anything extra so, so what if somewhat wants to go to lvl cap why gatekeep that.

Who is gatekeeping anything in the first place. Having no reason to go into sp lvl cap doesn't change the fact that having the power to do it means there's nothing in the game to challenge a player, shield gating builds play a role to that lack of challenge by making the player immortal for little effort (and use of an external item) so of course these would end up nerfed sooner or later.

Hell, one could argue that people who defend the about to die shield gating builds do it as an attempt to gatekeep SP lvl cap only to those using this borked survival method while anyone using "lower effort builds" should stay away from "their" content while projecting their own gatekeeping on everyone who understands the current shield gating as an oversight that stayed too long and should be addressed.

[(PSN)Nowhere-incoming]

People are saying it's a "fix" but it's not. SGing will still be viable, in fact it'll be more viable on some frames than others. 
All they've done is made it so you won't need the key, which actually makes it more consistent on frames that restore shields because getting chipped and then SG'ed would only give you 0.33 but now it'll scale up. This also somewhat buffs overguard in a way as the new SG will be an extra layer under it that's way more consistent than it was before. This buffs hildy, harrow, mag, gauss, protea quite a bit. There may be other weird interactions that I haven't thought of yet that buff other frames. 

This also makes pillage and condemn stronger, and indirectly buffs the 2 shield arcanes, not sure if it'll make the arcanes worth using but it is a buff.     
The super efficient SG builds on frames like banshee, nova, saryn, vauban, volt and a few others are going to be nerfed, but I think there's ways to salvage them. 
It's mostly a buff to SG, so I'm sitting pretty. And with the companion rework I'll even get a free SG every 30 seconds when I start actually using sentinels again. 

 

Every update is a Mag buff lmao. 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

So the further improvements that youre referring to is the speed increase in which you get your full shield gate back. Theres a reason why getting back all your shields in 1 cast is so important rather than double casting or using the partial gate, because of how numerous enemies are and how much damage they can dish out with most having high fire rate weapons you need to be able to recover just as quickly otherwise you stand no chance. What the key does is let you play out in the open since it allows you to keep up with enemy damage, without it you would have to camp a corner the whole run like the old days. The key has also created much more diversity in terms of both frame usage and build crafting regardless if you choose to use it or not which I see as quite a good thing, Im not sure how many people remember what it was like before shield gating but back then a lot of the squishier frames just didnt get used.

This is why I dislike arguments against the key theres too much focus on how much more mod slot efficient and outright "better" shield gate builds are in comparison to the other options but dont think about why that it is. For 99% of the games content shield gate builds are actually on par with the other options in terms of survivability due to the much higher maintenance required from those build, its the 1% people do look at tho and see shield gate as the only viable option then base all comparisons off of that. its not that shield gate builds arent so better, its that the other options are so much worse and have always been unviable. So what I dont understand are people so adamant about bringing shield gate builds down to the lvl of other options rather than bring the other options up. And changing the key to a mod slot btw will still have shield gate builds use up less mod slots than the alternatives, so the other alternatives will still be so much worse and just as unviable while some shield gate builds will be slightly inconvenienced and still be "mandatory" for higher lvls, nobody wins.

The importance doesnt matter, it doesnt justify a non-opportunity cost option to exsist. You also try to turn this to be about shield gating in general, which it isnt, it is simply about a non-opportunity cost slot versus a mod slot with costs tied to it. The 99% of the game where it is on par there is even less of a reason to allow a free slot to massively improve a build compared to another. Since in that 99% part of the game, there should be no problem for anyone building for either a full armor/hp, hybrid or full shield gate build with mods, and there should be no problem for either to give up other stats to min-max their defensive choice if they so wish.

And obviously bringing the gate down is the way to go, since TTL is already easy enough to build for in "normal" content. I've got no problems surviving with tanks in SP when going for 2 hours or so. Now someone might pop in here and go "but circuit scales much faster!", well be happy that the key is turned into a mod option then, so you can actually use it in circuit from when the patch goes live and onward. 

You also claim others speak about the 1%, but at the same time you throw around phrases like "much worse" when talking about the 99% of the game? The 99% of the game where I prefer to play armor/hp frames even over Revenant for survival, since I dont actually need to give a thought about rebuffing. I personally dont care where people used the key, if it was on normal, sp or very high endless runs, none of it matters to me, what matters is that things should be consistant, that building a frame should be centered around 8+2 mod slots along with set bonuses from mods in other parts of the loadout. No freebies from some infinite slot without trade offs or costs.

But since you seem fine with the key being free because it enables specific builds to be better, well then I will ask you this. Should Revenant then be able to slot a free aura in the gear wheel since he requires combat discipline if he wants to utilize certain arcanes? Should Nova be allowed the same so she doesnt have to give up an aura slot to increase her molecular prime speed? Maybe Baruuk should be allowed to slot fleeting expertise as a gear choice since he really could use the duration reduction but gives up so many slots on it otherwise?

[AegidiusF]

Le 15/10/2023 à 07:54, Stormhawkaro a dit :

Shield gate builds exist because at levels high enough, player HP and Armor don't matter, so even if gloom keeps enemies slow and your HP maxed as long as you deal damage, there comes a ppikt where a single stray bullet os enough to delete a player's HP bar and making passive gameplay impossible nonetheless while with shield gating your shields get depleted, you cast a power (in a game where you want to spam powers and the borked energy economy allows you to do it) and reset the invulnerability timer anyways.

Il y a 20 heures, Stormhawkaro a dit :

I'm sure i already mentioned that -at levels high enough- enemies turn our HP bars into a binary value no matter how big it is so that 330% more health and 82.5% more armor becomes meaningless, we can still die to a stray bullet. Additional strength is meaningless if you can't survive.

I said the same thing to a friend in a discussion about shield gating and high level and he stated that it's perfectly possible to endure cap level without shield gating, by just face tanking... 🤔 ...🤣 ... He said that I was exagerating and that I was making cap level seem harder than it really is.

Even though I haven't done cap level for a very long time (only a few times in a 4-players squad when I was a student), I know that there are only three  ways to survive on cap level : invisibility, invulnerability and shield gate (CC was the fourth, but with the new Eximus it is no more as efficient as before). Even before reaching cap level, face tanking (EHP only) is not enough. Even in the Circuit, where we can have some extra DR, face tanking is not enough. The enemies' damage multipliers scale always the same way (no matter if you are on normal mode, steel path, the circuit) and only one hit can kill you.

[Nira]

9 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I said the same thing to a friend in a discussion about shield gating and high level and he stated that it's perfectly possible to endure cap level without shield gating, by just face tanking... 🤔 ...🤣 ... He said that I was exagerating and that I was making cap level seem harder than it really is.

Even though I haven't done cap level for a very long time (only a few times in a 4-players squad when I was a student), I know that there are only three  ways to survive on cap level : invisibility, invulnerability and shield gate (CC was the fourth, but with the new Eximus it is no more as efficient as before). Even before reaching cap level, face tanking (EHP only) is not enough. Even in the Circuit, where we can have some extra DR, face tanking is not enough. The enemies' damage multipliers scale always the same way (no matter if you are on normal mode, steel path, the circuit) and only one hit can kill you.

Be curious to see if shield tanking at level cap will be viable with the proposed changes. I remember taking Harrow for some of those runs and was not really viable past level 3000 ish.

[AegidiusF]

We finally got an answer on whether Overshields will be taken into account for the shield gate duration or not :

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

We finally got an answer on whether Overshields will be taken into account for the shield gate duration or not :

 

Honestly makes sense to me that it's not intended to do so. 

But I wish they'd raise the cap on overshields.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[AegidiusF]

à l’instant, Tiltskillet a dit :

Honestly makes sense to me that it's not intended to do so. 

But I wish they'd raise the cap on overshields

I totally agree. 

I never thought it was going to work for shield gate duration, but the most surprising thing is that they send the update to cert with Overshields counting for shield gate duration : weren't they aware of this point? Very very curious. 🤔

[Leqesai]

17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Honestly makes sense to me that it's not intended to do so. 

But I wish they'd raise the cap on overshields.

With the damage reduction increase you basically have more overshields. Damage reduction creates larger effective numbers so in essence the overshields go farther than before.

Not technically more overshields but at least it's something.

[fo3nixz]

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I was lvl capping before SG was a thing, so the changes won't effect me at all.  Good players adapt, bad players whine.

Just my 2 cents

[Tiltskillet]

34 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

With the damage reduction increase you basically have more overshields. Damage reduction creates larger effective numbers so in essence the overshields go farther than before.

Not technically more overshields but at least it's something.

I'm aware.  I'd really welcome a higher cap on top of that, and basing it at least to some extent on modded shield value rather than the flat 1200 for everybody except Harrow and companions.

 

53 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

. . . but the most surprising thing is that they send the update to cert with Overshields counting for shield gate duration : weren't they aware of this point? Very very curious.

Not to play the Cynical Tenno schtick too hard, but  it's exactly the sort of lapse that doesn't surprise me.  Not that I predicted this specific thing would be overlooked, but I always expect something major to get oopsied in a major patch.  The only question now is "What else?" :P

I wonder how long it'll be until the next Cert build.

[Hexerin]

Laughs in Trinity

Laughs in Mag

Never needed the key, and now I'm stronger without even changing anything.

Spoiler

Laughs maniacally in Valkyr

Imagine taking damage in the first place.

Lol.

Lmao even.

[Qriist]

On 2023-10-15 at 4:36 PM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

its not that shield gate builds arent so better, its that the other options are so much worse and have always been unviable.

On 2023-10-15 at 3:02 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

health tank build have never once been viable in those crazy high lvl runs

On 2023-10-16 at 9:13 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I said the same thing to a friend in a discussion about shield gating and high level and he stated that it's perfectly possible to endure cap level without shield gating, by just face tanking... 🤔 ...🤣 ... He said that I was exagerating and that I was making cap level seem harder than it really is.

Even though I haven't done cap level for a very long time (only a few times in a 4-players squad when I was a student), I know that there are only three  ways to survive on cap level : invisibility, invulnerability and shield gate (CC was the fourth, but with the new Eximus it is no more as efficient as before). Even before reaching cap level, face tanking (EHP only) is not enough. Even in the Circuit, where we can have some extra DR, face tanking is not enough. The enemies' damage multipliers scale always the same way (no matter if you are on normal mode, steel path, the circuit) and only one hit can kill you.

None of this is true.

I will admit that face tanking at level cap is probably substantially more difficult because you have to pay attention to the game but it's definitely doable, at least in the Circuit.

I've taken my non-shieldgating Mesa to level cap in a Circuit run with half the squad bailing an hour earlier.

I've also comfortably taken my Saryn and Gyre and Xaku and Citrine and Titania up to at least the 5,000s in Circuit. Of these, only Gyre could be considered a shieldgate build because I use Pillage to strip armor, but I practically guarentee you I don't employ the same frantic ability spam shieldgaters do.

 

[Jarriaga]

On 2023-10-15 at 9:07 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

It's almost as if we weren't supposed to get there so having builds allowing us to do this should be toned down instead of bringing everything else up instead and make the whole game even easier in the process.

So your point is just a convoluted way to say "Nerf nothing, buff everything instead"

Reminds of that interview Pablo had in which he explained why buffing everything to Bramma levels results in the entire game needing a nerf by means of annoyingly-strong enemies that can keep-up with the powecreep. Thus: Outliers are culled instead of becoming the norm. 

But this reality is an unacceptable argument to those who want convenience, efficiency and powercreep at the expense of game design because they don't care about consistency or overall game health. Worse even: They can't fathom why anyone else would. 

On 2023-10-16 at 3:36 AM, Stormhawkaro said:

Seems like player skill is a foreign term for you. Two players of different skill levels can use the exact same setup and still perform differently and  pushing gear beyond its limits is where challenge begins. 

Indeed. There are people so extremely skilled at Dark Souls that they can even beat the game using a Guitar Hero controller as their input. Imagine if the game was balanced around those players. What would it mean for everyone else? 

On 2023-10-16 at 2:25 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Do you know the reason why guns now have an arcane slots and galvanized mods? Its because guns just could not deal with sp units so they needed to be buffed in order to be usable.

This is flat-out revisionist history BS. I cleared TSP an entire year before the introduction of gun arcanes and Galvanized mods. Don't pretend enemies didn't get a massive nerf before the introduction of TSP.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Jarriaga

[RichardKam]

2023/10/16 PM2点25分 , (NSW)warfare3376 说:

Do you know the reason why guns now have an arcane slots and galvanized mods? Its because guns just could not deal with sp units so they needed to be buffed in order to be usable. This exact situation would happen with a constant defined power lvl too, there will eventually be a point player equipment wont be able to handle the tougher content and it then comes down the players skill and knowledge of all the games mechanics to deal with it which at that point kinda goes against the casual experience warframe is meant to be.  You cant continuously keep increasing difficulty forever without also increasing the power of the player and if you dont increase either then the game will very boring very quickly.

Gun arcane and gal. mods were introduced together with melee nerf. It was called the arsenal divide. It had nothing to do with "gun being unusable in SP".

130 strength Nyx with MK-I braton can shred SP grineer like wet tissue paper since day one.

[----Legacy----]

6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Reminds of that interview Pablo had in which he explained why buffing everything to Bramma levels results in the entire game needing a nerf by means of annoyingly-strong enemies that can keep-up with the powecreep. Thus: Outliers are culled instead of becoming the norm. 

Pretty much, there's a reason why certain units have been added to the game over time, guess it's safe to say Nullifiers are a huge example of it right up there next to anything able to drain our energy and/or deal magnetic damage and it's the same reason why Eximus units -obviously designed to counter different kinds of gameplay- were given overguard before us players.

6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

But this reality is an unacceptable argument to those who want convenience, efficiency and powercreep at the expense of game design because they don't care about consistency or overall game health. Worse even: They can't fathom why anyone else would. 

Couldn't have said it any better and -at least imo- DE taking this deepdive into keeping that loud part of the playerbase who wants conveniemce, efficiency and powercreep instead of a playable game are the reasons why warframe gameplay has been getting stale, repetitive and a friend would even say "mindnumbing".

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 8 heures, Qriist a dit :

None of this is true.

I will admit that face tanking at level cap is probably substantially more difficult because you have to pay attention to the game but it's definitely doable, at least in the Circuit.

I've taken my non-shieldgating Mesa to level cap in a Circuit run with half the squad bailing an hour earlier.

I've also comfortably taken my Saryn and Gyre and Xaku and Citrine and Titania up to at least the 5,000s in Circuit. Of these, only Gyre could be considered a shieldgate build because I use Pillage to strip armor, but I practically guarentee you I don't employ the same frantic ability spam shieldgaters do.

 

I'm sorry, but what we said is true.

Shield gate is not only spamming abilities : just avoiding damage to regen shields is shield gating.

Xaku can do level cap pretty easily, just because it can avoid damage with its 4th and CC. The same is true for Titania, who benefits even more from the enemies precision changes the devs made some years ago. These frames do not need to spam abilities, just avoid damage to regen shields and benefit from the shield gate mechanics.

People use to consider shield gating build those who use Pillage or spam abilities, but it's not only that : covering yourself with an aggro ability or a CC ability to get some time to regen shields (Saryn with Molt, as an exemple), Gyre with her own abilities, Citrine with her CC, is also shield gating.

Try to level cap with Inaros and Nidus. You will easily see that they will need some kind of gate or invulnerability phase to survive. Martyr Symbiosis + Assault Tek, or Vazarin's Protective Sling + Rolling Guard, or Rolling Guard + Helminth CC ability (Silence, full range Condemn...), or Arcane Grace + Rolling Guard, as when Arcane Grace triggers, it can prevent you from dying, the same way Arcane Aegis prevents your shields from depleting (in other words, it's a 9 seconds immortal phase). Nidus, at least, has his passive invulnerability gate, leeting him 5 seconds of invulnerability to get more 15 stacks while killing enemies with his abilities.

Face tanking is surviving only with DR : but this is impossible due to the high amount of damage level cap enemies can deal. Some kind of gate giving you an invulnerability phase is absolutely necessary.

There are other means, the best one, as I said before, is invisibility, but DR is not enough. The enemies damage multipliers shows that very well.

A grinner Bombard direct hit will make about 593,899 damage, with 950,259 radial damage. A Heavy Gunner will deal about 198,929 damage per bullet with high fire rate. Let's take Citrine, as you mentioned her and she has a nice DR. If you have a full Umbra set (731.25 Armor), Adaptation (max 90% DR), Arcane Guardian (+900 Armor), you will have about 84.466% DR from armor stacking with 90% from Adaptation and 90% DR from her 2nd ability (I'm supposing a full stack Adaptation and a max DR Preserving Shell), giving you about 99.846% of global DR. Every bullet from the Heavy Gunner will still deal about 295 damage per bullet with high fire rate and the Bombard direct hit will deal about 922 damage and its AoE will deal about 1,476 damage. And I'm not even taking into consideration the status damage we can take from enemies and the damage from some Eximus abilities.

Surviving with DR only is not enough.

[Circle_of_Psi]

13 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Honestly makes sense to me that it's not intended to do so. 

But I wish they'd raise the cap on overshields.

The funny thing is, people are calling this a Nerf