The Yareli Problem.

[Chemomancer]

I want to start by clarifying - Yareli is now my favorite frame, and my problem with her isn't a dealbreaker for me, just a disappointment that I would like to see tweaked.

I was building my Yareli for a pairing with Twin Grakatas. With Merulina Guardian, and some mag. size (primed slip magazine finally! Let's goooo!) and fire rate mods I was determined to reprise the old firerate pewpew Grakata experience on a whole new level.

To work towards this end, I decided I wanted to subsume one of her abilities. I wasn't sure whether I would have preferred subsuming over her Aqua Blades or Riptide, but I decided if I was going pew-pew maybe it was good to have aoe cc, and skip the pseudo-melee. In the end I wound up putting energized munitions on her - less ammo consumption, more pewpew, and maybe between that and ammo mutation I can sustain my damage better.

I performed the subsume, headed to simulacrum to test it all out, hopped on merulina, pressed my newly re-done '3' and...

.........

... nothing happened.

It turns out you can't use subsumed abilities while riding Merulina - only Yareli's native abilities.

I'm not sure if this was intentional, or was an oversight, but it's extremely disappointing - it is very tedious to be flipping back and forth between Merulina every time you want to use a subsume ability, and it seems to be an odd restriction to have on one specific frame in particular. The result is that Yareli doesn't get to benefit off the subsume system quite as well as other Warframes in the game, and build creativity with her suffers as a result.

To be fair - Yareli isn't exactly in desperate need of subsumes, as her starting kit is already good, I just am a bit bummed out that my options now more or less start and end there.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Chemomancer

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

You're forgetting the animations involved with subsuming. Yareli has to imitate the subsumed frame's ability animations and that would be an absolute nightmare and very stupidly painful process for DE to partake in. This is why abilities have to be activated off of Merulina first (minus Yareli's own abilities). 

I know it's a bummer for your idea (a guns blazing rider is, in fact, AWESOME!!), but I think it would be way too much for DE to do there.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

13 minutes ago, Chemomancer said:

I want to start by clarifying - Yareli is now my favorite frame, and my problem with her isn't a dealbreaker for me, just a disappointment that I would like to see tweaked.

I was building my Yareli for a pairing with Twin Grakatas. With Merulina Guardian, and some mag. size (primed slip magazine finally! Let's goooo!) and fire rate mods I was determined to reprise the old firerate pewpew Grakata experience on a whole new level.

To work towards this end, I decided I wanted to subsume one of her abilities. I wasn't sure whether I would have preferred subsuming over her Aqua Blades or Riptide, but I decided if I was going pew-pew maybe it was good to have aoe cc, and skip the pseudo-melee. In the end I wound up putting energized munitions on her - less ammo consumption, more pewpew, and maybe between that and ammo mutation I can sustain my damage better.

I performed the subsume, headed to simulacrum to test it all out, hopped on merulina, pressed my newly re-done '3' and...

.........

... nothing happened.

It turns out you can't use subsumed abilities while riding Merulina - only Yareli's native abilities.

I'm not sure if this was intentional, or was an oversight, but it's extremely disappointing - it is very tedious to be flipping back and forth between Merulina every time you want to use a subsume ability, and it seems to be an odd restriction to have on one specific frame in particular. The result is that Yareli doesn't get to benefit off the subsume system quite as well as other Warframes in the game, and build creativity with her suffers as a result.

To be fair - Yareli isn't exactly in desperate need of subsumes, as her starting kit is already good, I just am a bit bummed out that my options now more or less start and end there.

Ironically, Titania can do helminth while in archwing.

[Chemomancer]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're forgetting the animations involved with subsuming. Yareli has to imitate the subsumed frame's ability animations and that would be an absolute nightmare and very stupidly painful process for DE to partake in. This is why abilities have to be activated off of Merulina first (minus Yareli's own abilities). 

I know it's a bummer for your idea (a guns blazing rider is, in fact, AWESOME!!), but I think it would be way too much for DE to do there.

I don't really see this as a major issue - could she not just do the same animation on her board? I grant that it might not always follow 'realistic physics', but... I mean... this is Warframe we're playing...

Even that aside - a lot of the subsumed abilities (like Energized Munitions) are buffs that only animate above-the-waist. I don't see why those ones couldn't be identified and implemented for on-the-board use as they already are, no animation changes necessary.

Alternatively still - for abilities where those are both genuinely not an option, they could make a 'generic' animation for Yareli when she uses a subsumed ability (as opposed to her others).

I don't see animation as an obstacle here, really.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Chemomancer

[Chemomancer]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Ironically, Titania can do helminth while in archwing.

This too. I don't see why Titania should be able to Grendel-sumo-stomp flying around in midair, but Yareli can't do it because 'she's on a surfboard, and that wouldn't make sense'.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Chemomancer

[Raarsi]

So I was genuinely expecting the problem to be "small doorways".  Color me surprised.

If anything, I feel like this is more of an argument to nerf Titania.  Right now for Yareli though, I think this means having to be a bit pickier about which helminth abilities to go with, sticking more to extended buffs or something on a timer so that you can hit it once and then go back onto Merulina while it's still active.

[Chemomancer]

1 hour ago, Raarsi said:

So I was genuinely expecting the problem to be "small doorways".  Color me surprised.

If anything, I feel like this is more of an argument to nerf Titania.  Right now for Yareli though, I think this means having to be a bit pickier about which helminth abilities to go with, sticking more to extended buffs or something on a timer so that you can hit it once and then go back onto Merulina while it's still active.

If it comes off that way, that isn't the intent.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Seems to be deliberate, because you'll note that many other subsume abilities need to have an 'anchor' point for them to be cast (for anchoring the range to the Navigation mesh) and Merulina doesn't use the navigation mesh in the same way that Warframe movement does. Meaning that while some can be cast while moving, others can't. Because Merulina is a separate form of mobility, DE would basically have to recode half the Subsumes to work with it, and so... yeah...

It's basically only fair that, until they can make all of them compatible with this one frame, they make none of them compatible.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

the exalted K drive was an absolutely terrible idea, which limited a frame that was already far too cutesy for my taste, but she could have had an interesting kit. sadly, the cringe won out with her.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 2 horas, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT dijo:

Ironically, Titania can do helminth while in archwing.

I will never understand why Yareli and Voruna have so many limitations with the helminth abilities. It's as if DE wanted to force us to use their kits.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're forgetting the animations involved with subsuming. Yareli has to imitate the subsumed frame's ability animations and that would be an absolute nightmare and very stupidly painful process for DE to partake in. This is why abilities have to be activated off of Merulina first (minus Yareli's own abilities). 

I know it's a bummer for your idea (a guns blazing rider is, in fact, AWESOME!!), but I think it would be way too much for DE to do there.

Ziplines: Am I a joke to you?

[Zekkii]

Subsume abilities are just too powerful to ignore.  I'm sure many Yareli players would rather T-pose than be locked out of using them, myself included.

[Nekomian]

3 hours ago, Chemomancer said:

Alternatively still - for abilities where those are both genuinely not an option, they could make a 'generic' animation for Yareli when she uses a subsumed ability (as opposed to her others).

This is what I was gonna recommend as well - I get they don't want to go back and re-do all of the animations specifically for riding on Merulina, but they could just do some generic hand wave animation or something to indicate an ability cast instead. They specifically wanted to design a frame with a k-drive mechanic attached, and have to deal with all the complexities involved with it. Locking players out of an entire system due to their own mechanical / technical issues they created and caused just does not feel very good, and there's many other ways to address this other than "we don't wanna deal with it, so you can't use any subsumed abilities".

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

It seems like an oversight that doesn't have a simple fix. I am not intimately knowledgeable with the specific issues that would need to be addressed to allow Yareli to be able to cast more on Merulina, but I'd personally be hesitant to make quick and fast comparisons, to say Titania. To my best understanding, the issues both might have, could be very different, with one being easier to overcome than the other. Hence making the idea "if it works here, why not here duh" flawed. Like it could be that simple, like I said, not an expert. KDrive like interactions just seem more restrictive than Archwing like interactions. 

Definitely sympathise with disappointing though. 

Mind you, I also don't engage in the Helminth system much as far as subsumed abilities. I think its more fun and interesting to just use 90% of Warframes own kits. I have a few Warframe, with subsumed abilities, but those are usually to make a task in Warframe, I dislike, or find a bit boring, much faster. (like if there is a 10 wave Defence on a map I dislike, thats timed and I want a specific reward. Think Sorties, Equinox with Terrify is great to make haste). 

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ziplines: Am I a joke to you?

Yeah, this "Yareli problem" is actually an Ivara problem that Yareli inherited. Titania is proof that this shouldn't really be an issue.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Yeah, this "Yareli problem" is actually an Ivara problem that Yareli inherited. Titania is proof that this shouldn't really be an issue.

The comparisons are vastly different though...just about night and day. Merulina is the central anchor of operation, not Yareli. This means DE had to make new sets of animations for Yareli while on Merulina. You can even see there's the same extra sequence involved with boarding Merulina as it is with kdrives. 

Now, while I do think DE may be working on allowing subsumed abilities to be casted while on Merulina, I don't think it is important enough to be top or near top of list. And I would be extra careful declaring what should and shouldn't be an issue or an easy process. If it were simple, then I would've submitted the correct coding to DE by now.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Even if they can't, Yarelli's 1 is a single hand animation, her 2 is a full upper body animation, and her 4 is a full whole body animation.

Like that's the animation in the game if I recall, there's quite literally nothing stopping her from just repeating those for all the animations in game. Hell it would make it more fitting.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Yeah, this "Yareli problem" is actually an Ivara problem that Yareli inherited. Titania is proof that this shouldn't really be an issue.

The ol' "we don't feel like it" problem.

[Hayrack]

Yareli is like RB of a Warframe world. Pretty, but lacking that "Diva" factor to attract players, hence heavily promoted by pushy veiled marketing to not be a total flop. My point is, RB can actually sing now, but Yareli... well... She's got the looks, the talent, but her "producers" are holding back her potential.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Hayrack

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

Well without several thousand pages of challenges to do, I might just get to work on getting her now.

 

Skater gurrrrl looks fun.

[Skoomaseller]

14 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're forgetting the animations involved with subsuming. Yareli has to imitate the subsumed frame's ability animations and that would be an absolute nightmare and very stupidly painful process for DE to partake in. This is why abilities have to be activated off of Merulina first (minus Yareli's own abilities). 

I know it's a bummer for your idea (a guns blazing rider is, in fact, AWESOME!!), but I think it would be way too much for DE to do there.

nonsense. most single-wield secondaries (i think most secondaries in general) share the same reload animation while on Merulina, with the animation speed scaling to match reload speed.

if they can do that, they can also do it for abilities. Make 1 generic animation, and scale animation speed as required. like, the barest #*!%ing minimum, yknow.

this is considering, of course, that animations are the only issue. there's likely more under the hood that DE just doesn't bother trying to fix/make function, which is likely the main reason why we still cannot use subsumes on Merulina.

But it's been two #*!%ing years. It should've been resolved by now. along w/ some of the remaining bugs on her.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're forgetting the animations involved with subsuming. Yareli has to imitate the subsumed frame's ability animations and that would be an absolute nightmare and very stupidly painful process for DE to partake in. This is why abilities have to be activated off of Merulina first (minus Yareli's own abilities). 

DE made that mistake and one day they will have to deal with it

14 hours ago, Chemomancer said:

I don't really see this as a major issue - could she not just do the same animation on her board? I grant that it might not always follow 'realistic physics', but... I mean... this is Warframe we're playing...

Im not a code and engines having seizures expert

But they could just make Yareli just Hand wave the ability and slow or speed the cast animation to fit

If Yareli can't hand wave just (Jojo reference) have a model rig behind or hidden to do the animation for her. The most effects from that i would expect is merulina pauses then continues or Crashes 

[Voltage]

8 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The comparisons are vastly different though...just about night and day. Merulina is the central anchor of operation, not Yareli. This means DE had to make new sets of animations for Yareli while on Merulina. You can even see there's the same extra sequence involved with boarding Merulina as it is with kdrives.

If you're only going to do something halfway, don't bother doing it at all.

Helminth is part of the game and needs to work on Merulina and Zipline. If they can't make that functionality work, they shouldn't bother making these special abilities that root the Warframe in a way where it restricts their behavior compared to the rest of the roster. 

8 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Now, while I do think DE may be working on allowing subsumed abilities to be casted while on Merulina, I don't think it is important enough to be top or near top of list. And I would be extra careful declaring what should and shouldn't be an issue or an easy process. If it were simple, then I would've submitted the correct coding to DE by now.

DE doesn't face a problem with implementation difficulty, they face a decade of backlog. I'd argue such an issue as this is high priority. Why? I don't play Yareli, so why would I say that? Because Warframes are the staple title of the game itself and they better all have the same opportunity of mechanical usage. Helminth must work on all Warframes in the same way.

This isn't about whether it's simple, it's about whether it's a profitable opportunity cost. Yareli is already old news. She may as well be Atlas. 

Im so tired of this excuse about whether something can or cannot be fixed to make it seem like there is actually difficulty in these areas when the issue has been clearly mismanagement for years. Why do you think this QoL update finally arose in 2023 and not years prior? They are awesome changes, but some of them are several years overdue, especially the ones as simple as changing Faction Damage mod descriptions to read as a multiplier and not a percentage.

This may sound harsh, but in my line of work, if you're going to do a hack-job to finish something, you should find another career. If I had the work ethic as these modern video games that are often held together by glue and popsicle sticks, I'd be unemployed.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Voltage

[Aruquae]

16 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I will never understand why Yareli and Voruna have so many limitations with the helminth abilities. It's as if DE wanted to force us to use their kits.

Voruna makes slightly less sense then Yareli, her fourth just makes her lay on the floor, that's it.

Though both should be able to use helminth, Titania exists

[Harutomata]

Grendel's Pulverize has the same problem.