Warframe has a Problem, and its OUR fault

[Silligoose]

12 hours ago, Varagonax said:

I have been thinking long and hard about Warframe. I have been thinking about the four primary types of players (Explorers, Achievers, Killers and Socializers), about the divide between the players who feel fulfilment from maximizing efficiency and those who feel fulfilment about maximizing enjoyment. and about how the long standing community at large feels largely dissatisfied with the content thats coming out.

Its no big secret that for a long time now that Veterans have been largely dissatisfied about how challenging Warframe is, how they struggle to find content to throw themselves into, and how they feel that the game is leaving them behind. I think this is largely true but as I wondered how DE could possibly fix it, I think I came upon the issue.

It's us. We are the problem, or at least the cause of the symptoms thats causing end game fatigue for hard core players and casuals alike. 

DE is in a predicament where we ask them to make the game harder, but demand that they never touch the power fantasy. We hate on them when they release weapons, frames, and content that dont sit neatly on the shelf next to billion damage Valkyr and immortal Revenant builds. We complain that armor scaling sucks, that steelpath is too spongey, that the AI isnt adequate all the while clinging jealously to our favorite meta setups that all but necessitated these changes to happen. I mean, AI doesnt matter when the dead instant a Grineer soldier pops his head out from around his cover only to get mag dumped by a pistol toting lunatic shooting energy bombs with the sheer fury of a dying star who can also generate so much EHP that in order to take them down the only meaningful way that it can happen will guaranteed to feel unfair.

We encouraged these changes with our wallets and playing habits. DE wouldnt have needed to add ridiculous armor scaling if we didnt lambast them every time they nerf something, and refuse to stop finding ways to make that armor meaningless. People still complain about the AOE meta being nerfed, and it literally made playing with randoms a coin toss as to whether or not you got to feel like you could meaningfully contribute.

I don't think DE can effect any meaningful changes, either. Its too late for Warframe, for us. In order for warframe to feel meaningful, in order for us to still feel powerful, to still have the ability to min max our builds.... It would take a total overhaul of the entire system. It would require dialing back our power to 1, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. It would require so much change that Warframe would look nothing like it does now. And we would have to let them.

We collectively have to decide that we are willing to let go, that we don't need the next new frame to be at least mid tier for us to play them. We would need to accept that our million damage builds will go away, and that they have to in order for challenge to MEAN anything. We cannot both have a system that lets us accrue this much power, and a system that can meaningfully challange that power. Not without making the game so complex that playing it casually is impossible, and certainly not without making the game a lot less fun.

Because if WE dont change how we approach the game, it loses its meaning. Every new frame that comes out, every new mechanic, every new mod is pushing warframe further and further away from a challenging squad based horde shooter and more towards a solo genocide simulator. I think this is evident when players have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as support, tank, or dps warframes. That the number one most played warframe (Wukong) is so popular that he is played 1000 times more frequently than the number one least played frame (Atlas... Im ignoring Excalbur Prime because 99.9% of players dont have him). That in order to be a good frame it needs to do damage, have some solid crowd control, AND be survivable. AND, these behaviours are exacerbated by a system that by necessity REWARDS them.

We do not know what we are asking for. We think we know, but we dont and by getting what we asked for we have made the bed we must now sleep on.

Games tend to have different difficulty settings to cater for the spectrum of players that enjoy different levels of challenge. There is no need to completely alienate players who enjoy easy-mode in order to provide a challenge for those who want their endgame setups legitimately challenged - many games offer various levels of difficulty, even some games with massive power creep and Warframe can as well. Power fantasy also doesn't necessitate a game being easy, which means power fantasy doesn't need to be taken away in order for a game to be challenging.

In terms of this game actually being able to offer a challenge to endgame players - it really isn't that complicated. Rather specific and easily identifiable exceptional outliers in performance need to be addressed eg Mesmer Skin. Certain ridiculous multipliers need to be addressed. Certain clearly overpowered mechanics, such as cc, need to be addressed properly, instead of the band-aid embarrassments such as Overguard.

Armour scaling "sucks" not simply because it makes enemies more durable, but because it leads to game depth erosion due to mechanics that are set to be beneficial against armour partially (eg corrosive, radiation etc), becoming irrelevant in comparison to options that either completely strip, or bypass armour as a result of practical efficacy. Dealing with armour becomes a feast of famine mechanic. It also disproportionately affects the relative durability of different enemies markedly at higher levels (as can be seen on SP chart missions). Armour scaling sucks because the formula used is not suitable.

"Player fatigue" and worse yet "player burnout", are PR terms to distract the simple minded from the reality of what happens in games with monotonous loops - players getting bored. That's all it is.

Just as with many other games, good and bad, Warframe is the way it is because of the devs. Sure, players influence design, but different dev companies put different levels of priority on factors like passion and profit, which affects design decisions and the reality is DE decided profit comes first and foremost. They decided they want to make money not only by selling cosmetics, but also by selling power for real world money. From the start players have the option to make this game easy-mode by buying power via real-world money (aka pay-to-win). That theme is upheld through to endgame. That's part of the business model, which influences game design greatly - unlike Hades, or Diablo 3, or Gran Turismo, or a myriad of other games, where even with the best gear many players simply won't be good enough to overcome the toughest challenges without considerable time investment (and even then may not be good enough), Warframe is balanced so that when players do have the best endgame gear available, the skill requirement is far lower than what was required for free players to get to endgame and far lower than what is required in other games to overcome the tougher challenges, because that is part of how DE incentivises gear purchases. Their target demographic are players who buy easy-mode, players who want to buy progress, players who want to buy power and that is who they cater to. They simply do not seem very interested in catering to players who actually want endgame player power to be legitimately challenged and given their comments regarding balance over the years, as well as some of the balance changes enacted, I don't think the current team actually could envision the changes needed.

 

[Corvid]

7 hours ago, RichardKam said:

when "challlenge" was never the focus of this game since 2013.

Demonstrably false. When it first came out into open beta, Warframe was actually notable for being relatively difficult among third person shooters. Enemies had high HP and often counterintuitive weakpoints, ammo and energy were both scarce and had to be managed carefully to avoid running dry (especially against bosses), and our mobility and melee were both tied to a fairly restrictive stamina meter.

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Then play solo? Even more challenge. I don’t see the issue here.

I think you missed the part where Warframe is an online coop game? I dunno, maybe I like playing online with other people in my online coop games? Is that really so hard to understand? If I wanted to play a single-player game I'd play a single-player game.

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Basically you’re asking for others to be forced to conform to how you want to play against the established meta by stripping them of power and agency when you have all the tools you need at your disposal to make that a reality for yourself.

No, what I'd like is for everything to be balanced to the same powerful level. Getting there means either buffs or nerfs. Y'all just can't understand that buffs and nerfs are two sides of the exact same coin, and are irrationally fearful that some boogieman is coming to take your big numbers away when it makes literally no difference.

Here's a simple, simple example:

1. You deal 1,000,000 damage to an enemy with 1,000,000 health. It dies instantly.
2. You deal 10 damage to an enemy with 10 health. It dies instantly.

What about this gameplay is different? Is having 1,000,000 damage better? How can it be when the enemy dies in the same number of hits? How about we replicate this scenario ingame? Here:

Which set of mods shown is "better"? 6 mods or 0? Well they all kill in the same number of bursts. The gameplay is identical. The numbers you see do not actually matter. Why would they when the result is the same?

The relationship between those numbers is what matters. It doesn't matter how much damage you deal, it matters how much damage you deal compared to the enemy you deal it to. It matters how much damage you deal compared to your other options. So if you buff Gun A that deals 10 damage to deal 1,000,000 that's the same as nerfing Gun B that deals 1,000,000 damage to deal 10. The result is the same in both cases: Gun A and Gun B end up on the same level and become equally valuable, viable options. And the result of that when applied generally is what? That all guns and melee and archguns and sentinels and Amps and damage-dealing abilities can be good. More power and agency for everything. How terrible! No, surely we must protect the minority of overpowered weapons and mechanics that trivialize the game! How else could we keep our precious useless Mastery Fodder and stale Required Modding!?

Edit: and two can play at the "you're just asking for" game. I want everything balanced so there can be easy content for you and hard content for me. You want nothing to be balanced so everything can be easy, other people's interests be damned. I want us all to have our own spaces, you want every space for yourself.

Edited December 16, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I think you missed the part where Warframe is an online coop game? I dunno, maybe I like playing online with other people in my online coop games? Is that really so hard to understand? If I wanted to play a single-player game I'd play a single-player game.

No, what I'd like is for everything to be balanced to the same powerful level. Getting there means either buffs or nerfs. Y'all just can't understand that buffs and nerfs are two sides of the exact same coin, and are irrationally fearful that some boogieman is coming to take your big numbers away when it makes literally no difference.

Here's a simple, simple example:

1. You deal 1,000,000 damage to an enemy with 1,000,000 health. It dies instantly.
2. You deal 10 damage to an enemy with 10 health. It dies instantly.

What about this gameplay is different? Is having 1,000,000 damage better? How can it be when the enemy dies in the same number of hits? How about we replicate this scenario ingame? Here:

Which set of mods shown is "better"? 6 mods or 0? Well they all kill in the same number of bursts. The gameplay is identical. The numbers you see do not actually matter. Why would they when the result is the same?

The relationship between those numbers is what matters. It doesn't matter how much damage you deal, it matters how much damage you deal compared to the enemy you deal it to. It matters how much damage you deal compared to your other options. So if you buff Gun A that deals 10 damage to deal 1,000,000 that's the same as nerfing Gun B that deals 1,000,000 damage to deal 10. The result is the same in both cases: Gun A and Gun B end up on the same level and become equally valuable, viable options. And the result of that when applied generally is what? That all guns and melee and archguns and sentinels and Amps and damage-dealing abilities can be good. More power and agency for everything. How terrible! No, surely we must protect the minority of overpowered weapons and mechanics that trivialize the game! How else could we keep our precious useless Mastery Fodder and stale Required Modding!?

Edit: and two can play at the "you're just asking for" game. I want everything balanced so there can be easy content for you and hard content for me. You want nothing to be balanced so everything can be easy, other people's interests be damned. I want us all to have our own spaces, you want every space for yourself.

The game is balanced though - just not the way you want it - and you’re asking for every one else’s experience to be changed to meet your desires

You want your power to matter more then go into endless for 3 hours. Saying gun A hits for 10 damage and OHKO and gun B hits for 10,000,000 damage and OHKO is a bit disingenuous as well and factually incorrect for most of the weapons in game. Stop using OP guns? Play something off meta? I’m playing with Larkspur - it does less damage than Ignis for gods sake.

Like I dunno man… maybe you should go play Destiny? Might even be able to catch that train wreck before completely sinks with how they’ve been catering the game to requests like yours 😂

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by (PSN)FirmBizkit

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I do not know why people suddenly want this game to be challenging, when "challlenge" was never the focus of this game since 2013.

The unique selling points of this game have always been power fantasy, ninja parkour, arsenal diversity, builds, things like that, something you cannot find in the current fps or third person shooter market.

People are trying to force it on the game. It's been this way for a very long time. References like "poor balance", "bad game design" and "Souls like" are usually where this type of thread gets boosted. Unfortunately, they take this theme all the way to YouTube, where it gains even more unnecessary traffic. All because they refuse to respect the core values of DE's game. 

Though it sucks to see this continually happening, It's also necessary because, in rare cases, actual good ideas come of it. 

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

The changes to Hydroid that changed his play-style from niche to meta is either a casualty or a rebirth depending on who you ask because of these balance views.

Unfortunately, we do not “lift together”.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

🤔 I do think there is consensus; it’s bigger numbers.

The result of bigger numbers is where consensus falls apart. You’re not going to get “Challenge seekers” who don’t want bigger numbers, and you’re not going to get “Kill everything seekers” who don’t want bigger numbers either.

One of these leads to what seems like a logical conclusion, the other raises a lot of questions

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Here's a simple, simple example:

1. You deal 1,000,000 damage to an enemy with 1,000,000 health. It dies instantly.
2. You deal 10 damage to an enemy with 10 health. It dies instantly.

What about this gameplay is different? Is having 1,000,000 damage better? How can it be when the enemy dies in the same number of hits? How about we replicate this scenario ingame? Here:

Which set of mods shown is "better"? 6 mods or 0? Well they all kill in the same number of bursts. The gameplay is identical. The numbers you see do not actually matter. Why would they when the result is the same?

I’ve always liked your videos.

Something that strikes me about interpreting this one is that I don’t think people are looking at the empty slots and are thinking “I could equip punch-through or reload speed or anything else that would modify the performance of my equipment for the mission and ultimately shift how a fight can play out”.

What do people do with spare slots?

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Stop using OP guns? Play something off meta? I’m playing with Larkspur - it does less damage than Ignis for gods sake.

And I play Yareli. Guess what? It doesn't matter when Joe Tenno I get matched with is snorting crack off Thermal Sunder Titania's ass. I can play something off-meta, and I do, and all that usually means is that I get to do *nothing* while one person in the squad runs ahead and does everything themselves. Or I can play my Khora and be that person and leave nothing for my teammates to do but walk to extraction. Fun?

1 hour ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Saying gun A hits for 10 damage and OHKO and gun B hits for 10,000,000 damage and OHKO is a bit disingenuous as well and factually incorrect for most of the weapons in game.

It has nothing to do with the weapons in the game, it's just math. We can be talking about any game. Heck, we could be talking about Football or Tennis for all it matters. What would the difference be if the points in Tennis were 0/30/60/80? Is that different for some reason than 0/15/30/40? In both cases it's first to 4 points. What would the difference be if a touchdown was 16 points and a field goal was 6? It's the same ratio as 6 and 3. There is nothing "disingenuous" or "factually incorrect" about saying that 10X = 10X is the same as 1,000,000X = 1,000,000X. In both cases X = X. They're the same.

And you're free to watch the gif I included where I show this principle ingame. The Heavy Gunner dies to the Burston Prime in the exact same 5 bursts whether the Burston Prime has 6 mods or 0 because the relative damage and EHP is the same. What is different about the 0-mod setup's 5 bursts to kill and the 6-mod setup's 5 bursts to kill? It's the same 5 bursts, which takes the same amount of time (minus the user error), sounds the same, looks the same, uses the same ammo... So what's different? You're free to try this simple experiment yourself. Double your outgoing damage and double your target's EHP and the resulting TTK stays the same, whether you increase the numbers 10% or 10,000%. It's just simple math.

2 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

The game is balanced though - just not the way you want it - and you’re asking for every one else’s experience to be changed to meet your desires

Yes, exactly. And the desires I have is for everything to be viable and worth using and fun. How terrible. If you feel threatened by the idea of weapons like the Vipers or the Veldt being worth considering alongside the Kuva Incarnon Prime meta flavor-of-the-week spew, well boo hoo. The rest of the game shouldn't suck just so the few meta things on the top can feel superior. Everything should be fun and viable - and not in a "well acktually" pedantic kind of way where you have to shoot out both of your knees and play blindfolded and alone for it to work.

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’ve always liked your videos.

Something that strikes me about interpreting this one is that I don’t think people are looking at the empty slots and are thinking “I could equip punch-through or reload speed or anything else that would modify the performance of my equipment for the mission and ultimately shift how a fight can play out”.

What do people do with spare slots?

Nothing, because those slots are usually filled with damage.

But specifically for that example, also nothing because I wanted to keep the math simple. It's all just +Damage and +Crit Damage and +Multishot and maybe +Faction Damage. I could have added elemental mods but then you have to deal with calculating damage advantages and procs and whatever and it gets messy. When it's just Serration or whatever it's simple: add Serration and you deal 2.65x your base damage so if you shoot an enemy with 2.65x more EHP it'll die in the same number of shots. Nothing about the gameplay has changed by the addition of Serration that can't be disappeared by adjusting your target.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

Nothing, because those slots are usually filled with damage.

But specifically for that example, also nothing because I wanted to keep the math simple. It's all just +Damage and +Crit Damage and +Multishot and maybe +Faction Damage. I could have added elemental mods but then you have to deal with calculating damage advantages and procs and whatever and it gets messy. When it's just Serration or whatever it's simple: add Serration and you deal 2.65x your base damage so if you shoot an enemy with 2.65x more EHP it'll die in the same number of shots. Nothing about the gameplay has changed by the addition of Serration that can't be disappeared by adjusting your target.

Well that just raises questions as to why they’re filled with damage instead of something else if someone’s looking for a fight. People know what the damage mods are meant to do, right?

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And I play Yareli. Guess what? It doesn't matter when Joe Tenno I get matched with is snorting crack off Thermal Sunder Titania's ass. I can play something off-meta, and I do, and all that usually means is that I get to do *nothing* while one person in the squad runs ahead and does everything themselves. Or I can play my Khora and be that person and leave nothing for my teammates to do but walk to extraction. Fun?

It has nothing to do with the weapons in the game, it's just math. We can be talking about any game. Heck, we could be talking about Football or Tennis for all it matters. What would the difference be if the points in Tennis were 0/30/60/80? Is that different for some reason than 0/15/30/40? In both cases it's first to 4 points. What would the difference be if a touchdown was 16 points and a field goal was 6? It's the same ratio as 6 and 3. There is nothing "disingenuous" or "factually incorrect" about saying that 10X = 10X is the same as 1,000,000X = 1,000,000X. In both cases X = X. They're the same.

And you're free to watch the gif I included where I show this principle ingame. The Heavy Gunner dies to the Burston Prime in the exact same 5 bursts whether the Burston Prime has 6 mods or 0 because the relative damage and EHP is the same. What is different about the 0-mod setup's 5 bursts to kill and the 6-mod setup's 5 bursts to kill? It's the same 5 bursts, which takes the same amount of time (minus the user error), sounds the same, looks the same, uses the same ammo... So what's different? You're free to try this simple experiment yourself. Double your outgoing damage and double your target's EHP and the resulting TTK stays the same, whether you increase the numbers 10% or 10,000%. It's just simple math.

Yes, exactly. And the desires I have is for everything to be viable and worth using and fun. How terrible. If you feel threatened by the idea of weapons like the Vipers or the Veldt being worth considering alongside the Kuva Incarnon Prime meta flavor-of-the-week spew, well boo hoo. The rest of the game shouldn't suck just so the few meta things on the top can feel superior. Everything should be fun and viable - and not in a "well acktually" pedantic kind of way where you have to shoot out both of your knees and play blindfolded and alone for it to work.

Dude just go play Destiny that’s clearly what you’re looking for. Like I said you might be able to catch it before it completely sinks if you hop on board now 

 

I don’t understand how asking for the game to be harder makes vipers more viable - it makes them even less viable. Your solution is to make garbage viable by making meta garbage. So fun. Maybe just buff the garbage? That’s what incarnons are for. That’s circular logic though because then we stil end up at the OHKO you’re complaining about.

Also? Level 34 heavy gunner? Steel path exists. Endless exists. Why are you using a gif of what is essentially tutorial mode enemies?

Just go play Destiny 

I didn’t leave Destiny for this exact reason and drop $500 on this game for people to start crying for nerfs to destroy this game too.

There are even people in this thread alluding to vertical progression hamster wheels - another garbage progression system. 
 

Like this is how these games are. You get the power and you reach the end state where that power destroys everything. You want that endless challenge and chase and that is achieved with arbitrary nerfs and vertical prog hamster wheels that simply give the illusion of progress - all of which are terrible design meant to appeal to addicts. 
 

The thing with nerfs for achieving this is it NEVER ENDS when this is your goal. It CANT ever end because you’ll always reach that end state and then more nerfs need to come.
 

The game is designed largely around horizontal progression with incarnons bringing weak weapons up and with different flavours of god mode. There’s nothing wrong with that. You’ve got 50 something frames and thousands of build possibilities to play with. The alternative is terrible design meant to appeal to addicts.

Edited December 17, 2023 by (PSN)FirmBizkit

[InfestedMonkey]

Run dragon keys on all frames at all times for all content.... even steel path. see if it creates a challenge.

 

[RichardKam]

12小时前 , Corvid 说:

Demonstrably false. When it first came out into open beta, Warframe was actually notable for being relatively difficult among third person shooters. Enemies had high HP and often counterintuitive weakpoints, ammo and energy were both scarce and had to be managed carefully to avoid running dry (especially against bosses), and our mobility and melee were both tied to a fairly restrictive stamina meter.

Alright. Then since 2015 when parkour was introduced and when stamina bar was removed.

Does not change the fact that "warframe is not about challenge". People looking for challenge in Warframe is looking at the wrong place, or playing a wrong game.

[PublikDomain]

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

I don’t understand how asking for the game to be harder makes vipers more viable - it makes them even less viable.

I know you don't, because you don't understand what people mean when they ask for a challenge or balance. You can't have a challenge without first defining what a challenge is, you can't define what a challenge is when players are so unpredictable, the only way to make players predictable is through proactive balancing, and that balance makes everything end up similarly powerful and worthwhile and viable. A Warframe where the Vipers are equally worthwhile, valuable, viable choices alongside everything else is also a Warframe where there can be a well-defined, consistent challenge. The ability to create a good challenge is a byproduct of not having 99% of the game's content be worthless garbage no one ever uses.

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Also? Level 34 heavy gunner? Steel path exists. Endless exists. Why are you using a gif of what is essentially tutorial mode enemies?

It's an example, my guy. It's just illustrating the point. The math is the same for a lvl34 Heavy Gunner as it is for a lvl9,999 SP Gokstad Officer. It's just math.

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Your solution is to make garbage viable by making meta garbage. So fun.

And you only say that because you don't understand that everything being meta and everything being garbage is the same thing. In both cases all of the weapons become equal. It's quite literally this:

As illustrated in that gif you don't understand. Making the Burston Prime more "garbage" by taking off its mods so it dealt only 1/20th its starting damage didn't change the resulting gameplay. It shot the same, sounded the same, recoiled the same, killed in the same number of hits, had the same ammo, had the same reload, looked the same, it was the same. The only difference was what the number was that popped off, a number that ultimately doesn't mean anything.

"So fun"? Well yeah, it's the same. If it was fun before it'll still be fun after.

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

Maybe just buff the garbage? That’s what incarnons are for.

Ok sure, let's just make new Incarnons for every weapon in the game. DE's even saying they're gonna add more!

Quote

Are there any plans for more Incarnon adapters?

Yes, there are. We intend to ship five next year; we just don't know when.

Wow, 5 a year! By that rate we might be caught up by what, 2060?

"Buff everything" is wildly impractical and has been an abject failure every time it's been tried. Remember when guns were too strong and DE buffed melee with BR/WW? And then melee was too strong and they buffed guns with Galvanized Mods and gun Arcanes? And then guns were too strong so they just buffed melee again with melee Arcanes and Tennokai? And that's just looking at the arms race between guns and melee!

Again: buffs and nerfs are the same thing and achieve the same results. One is just more practical and achievable than the other.

8 hours ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

That’s circular logic though because then we stil end up at the OHKO you’re complaining about.

No? I'm fine with OHKOs. Go play on Earth if you want tissue-paper enemies to bowl over, knock yourself out. What I'm not fine with is a minority of things being able to OHKO a piece of content while the majority can't. That's imbalance. And when there's imbalance things like challenge cannot be defined.

Case in point, Archon Hunts. Who do you balance them for? The guy using the meta powercreep-of-the-week that can kill it in seconds? Or the guy having fun with his non-meta Vipers and Veldt? If you make it for the first guy, the second guy doesn't get to contribute or participate unless he gives up his favorite things and follows the narrower meta. If you make it for the second guy, the first guy doesn't get a challenge and will destroy any challenge the second guy might be seeking if they ever play together - which given the game's matchmaking will be frequently. And so instead of making players even so everyone is equally powerful, we get imbalance and goofy mechanics like Attenuation that tries and fails to create a level playing field.

---

9 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Well that just raises questions as to why they’re filled with damage instead of something else if someone’s looking for a fight. People know what the damage mods are meant to do, right?

Because while human brain might enjoy a stimulating bout against a worthy foe, monkey brain likes big banana.

Edited December 17, 2023 by PublikDomain

[(NSW)Greybones]

12 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Because while human brain might enjoy a stimulating bout against a worthy foe, monkey brain likes big banana.

Hah!

Monkey brain is kind of stupid and not worth chasing, otherwise we end up with never satisfied players and an endless arms race.

The standard game has room for every option and better fight balance, seeing as modless is the baseline and Steel Path is not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if DE just gave up and catered to number-seekers after all these years; the players want it after all and make sure that DE know it, even if some of them are at odds with themselves.

Personally I’d rather a whole new set of Exilus-type mods for both weapons and frame, more options to build with and more equipment with weaknesses to adjust for; I find myself lacking in things to equip on the new Grimoir that isn’t just damage, and I feel the only saving grace for my ability to jump into the deep end whenever I want is the fact that they’re still working from the modless base and something SP-worthy from the start will be an outlier

[(NSW)Greybones]

Grr.

Was just reminded that there’s some bosses with unique mechanics strictly tied to Steel Path. As if there’s a fleeting chance that it’s going to actually be hard for someone who designs builds that are specifically for squashing a thing.

Freakin’ eat the fact that a meta is going to be discovered and balance the whole mode if you’re going to design mechanics specifically for it, DE, or add them as well to the part of the game with more options and considered design in the first place. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
dialled back aggressiveness

[Aceofgods]

On 2023-12-15 at 5:05 PM, Varagonax said:

I don't think DE can effect any meaningful changes, either. Its too late for Warframe, for us. In order for warframe to feel meaningful, in order for us to still feel powerful, to still have the ability to min max our builds.... It would take a total overhaul of the entire system. It would require dialing back our power to 1, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. It would require so much change that Warframe would look nothing like it does now. And we would have to let them.

And thus, Soulframe was conceived.

I'm convinced that the people who don't want to lose their power fantasy are the ones who don't like the idea of Soulframe. The ones who want something, anything, to feel challenging again are the ones looking forward to Soulframe. I'm looking forward to enjoying both of the games, personally.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

On 2023-12-16 at 12:06 AM, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

I came here specifically because destiny destroyed power fantasy. I just want to obliterate things. I think anyone asking for the game to be harder is in the wrong game 😂

This is hilarious because there was a time when people were coming here just to say destiny is better than warframe.

Hilarious.

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This is hilarious because there was a time when people were coming here just to say destiny is better than warframe.

Hilarious.

The mass exodus is coming. I think it’s already been happening 😂

2 hours ago, Aceofgods said:

And thus, Soulframe was conceived.

I'm convinced that the people who don't want to lose their power fantasy are the ones who don't like the idea of Soulframe. The ones who want something, anything, to feel challenging again are the ones looking forward to Soulframe. I'm looking forward to enjoying both of the games, personally.

I enjoy souls games - just not in my loot based horde mode grinder games 😂

Edited December 17, 2023 by (PSN)FirmBizkit

[Aceofgods]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)FirmBizkit said:

I enjoy souls games - just not in my loot based horde mode grinder games 😂

That's fair. Game mashups don't always work out well. I'm also glad that Soulframe is its own game, separate from Warframe.

DE has a history of other games failing (A permadeath open-world MMO called Survived By and another game that was like an arena shooter atompunk boardgame mashup with card-based weapons/attacks... it changed names a few times and I remember none of them) but this one seems much larger scale and I'm really looking forward to it, though I understand DE's apprehensiveness.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

On 2023-12-15 at 2:00 PM, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Nobody is forcing the nerf herders to use the best possible gear, rivens, arcanes, mods, etc then turn around and complain the game isnt challenging enough and beg DE to nerf everything.

Not sure how what I wrote and what you wrote intersect. Other perhaps you feel my statement applies to you in some way?

I'm simply saying that we come on these forums demanding DE give us an experience.  Everyone's idea of what that should be may differ.

But at the same time "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

So after 10 years we've gotten really good at optimizing the fun out of warframe. Then in the same breath go "Yo DE where's my fun"

If you want to keep enjoying yourself you've got to remember that this is a game and consider what got you playing in the first place. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Not sure how what I wrote and what you wrote intersect. Other perhaps you feel my statement applies to you in some way?

I'm simply saying that we come on these forums demanding DE give us an experience.  Everyone's idea of what that should be may differ.

But at the same time "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

So after 10 years we've gotten really good at optimizing the fun out of warframe. Then in the same breath go "Yo DE where's my fun"

If you want to keep enjoying yourself you've got to remember that this is a game and consider what got you playing in the first place. 

I think you should try reading that comment a few more times.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

It’s clear more than ever that any sort of “challenging content” isn’t ever going to happen. And I’m greatful. It seems DE is finally unbracing the horde power fantasy it’s is. And is focusing more on story and immersion than balance and “challenge” or “hard” content. I say bravo. This is what Warframe is and will always be. If you want a free to play challenging game I believe that’s what soul frame appears it will be. 

It also seems there is a steady stream of new players that want Warframe to evolve into somthing else. And while that’s good for Warframe to have new players those of us that have been here for the better part of ~10 years no better than to have those kinds of expectations. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by (XBOX)YoungGunn82

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 12/17/2023 at 5:32 PM, PublikDomain said:

Because while human brain might enjoy a stimulating bout against a worthy foe, monkey brain likes big banana.

 

On 12/17/2023 at 5:48 PM, (NSW)Greybones said:

Personally I’d rather a whole new set of Exilus-type mods for both weapons and frame, more options to build with and more equipment with weaknesses to adjust for; I find myself lacking in things to equip on the new Grimoir that isn’t just damage, and I feel the only saving grace for my ability to jump into the deep end whenever I want is the fact that they’re still working from the modless base and something SP-worthy from the start will be an outlier

*gasp!*

I found out about Tome mods!

They seem like the answer I’ve been looking for in regards of what to equip onto my tome??

I must have them. DE seemingly aware that there’s value to be had in these alternative mod options