You have altered the deal DE. I just pray you don't alter it any further.

[Rathalio]

13 hours ago, Corvid said:

It was originally pitched to the playerbase purely as a way to increase the base difficulty of missions so players could feel like their overpowered gear was useful for something, with no additional benefits. No exclusive rewards, no drop modifiers, just a way to start at a higher level so players wouldn't need to go on long endurance runs to feel tested.

And in my humble opinion, it should have stayed that way. Putting rewards behind it was only ever going to breed resentment, and having gameplay content gated behind it means DE can't adjust it to account for the increases in power that we've gone through since its addition (level cap runs, anyone?), so it no longer serves as a "challenge mode" for the part of the playerbase that it was originally supposed to satisfy.

Sure, it was the base idea. But it was never released that way. When they developed it, they realized there had to be some kind of rewards for playing it for it not to be bland. You are just arguing with the early concept which has never been a thing as is.

And overall I think that's healthy for the playerbase to reward building skills and strategies with harder content a little bit and overall pushing the game further. And also having more interests for some synergies and all the many different kinks you can find in your arsenal diversity. And the way they do it with steel path so far, they are not gatekeeping important gear that would matter for a non steel path player.

[Xzorn]

This is an interesting concept to me.

For years we were told "no scaling rewards for endless missions". Not even a little. Yet here we are with scaling rewards. In a twist of irony DE's version of scaling rewards is far less healthy for the game than what players wanted. Spamming instead of playing and planning for missions. Not to mentioned unchecked power creep.

The endless bounties even have reverse scaling if you still want rep since they give none past the first rotation. Forcing spam.

No one likes spamming missions, do they?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Honestly I’m kind of not surprised that DE heard how much players love talking about Steel Path and using it as the warped ruler to determine both viability of equipment as well as validation for the player, and were like “So I hear you like Steel Path; here’s more reason to play in it”.

Do I like it? No, it’s a mode that enables a handful of options and is the unimaginative player’s form of determining capability.

Am I surprised? Not really, this community suffers from more power than sense and has something to prove (“blah blah Opportunity Cost something something Can’t stop human nature blah blah Meta”), and can only shoehorn themselves into the few options that let them prove it while complaining about how boring and limited the game is

Edited December 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[TeaHands]

I'm glad they made Steelpath more relevant to the rest of the game. The spawn rates on the base star charts is an absolute snoozefest.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

They're doing this because no one except the <1% niche players would play it otherwise. I dislike this as well, considering sponge path narrows build variety down tighter than a new Vegas V.....

[Hexerin]

29 minutes ago, TeaHands said:

I'm glad they made Steelpath more relevant to the rest of the game. The spawn rates on the base star charts is an absolute snoozefest.

Yup, that's the primary reason I prefer Steel Path.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

It doesn't really bother me personally, because optimal in a game like Warframe, to me is quite subjective. So you are dealing with different players perspectives, preferences and ideas about what the game is, and should be, or could be, and then the different thresholds players hold, when it comes to the direction the game goes to in that regard. 

The way I play and enjoy the game, I do get a general enjoyment just from the gameplay itself. Certain weapons, certain Warframe abilities, learning synergies, experimenting etc... and yet, i can't deny that whenever I know I will be laying for long periods, especially with new content, I do like to have Boosters running. Especially Resource Boosters. Why? If I enjoy the gameplay as it is? Sure, but people are generally more complicated than that, in the sense, we can have multiple and overlapping priorities, preferences, competing and conflicting as well. Like I also like collecting things, and my enjoyment of something isn't eternal without conditions. I can't play 100 missions with my favourite Warframe shotgun and still enjoy it the same... i need to take a break, whether that means using different weapons, or taking a break from the game. 

Steel Path I enjoy because the enemies do take a bit longer to kill, they are tougher. The potential (although the necessity), for more skill and knowledge is there. There is this occasional flawed argument that people sometimes employ, when they are dismissive or undermine an aspect of something, but pointing out how certain examples can render a characteristic redundant or inconsequential. Without separating or understanding that variables exist and not all people are necessarily motivated to use the specific tool or idea that renders such characteristics moot. We have hundreds of different Warframe tools at our disposal. Yes, I can do level cap, but that doesn't mean all my builds or tools are designed to do level cap or that i even enjoy level cap. Then obviously some tools can do it easier and or with less skill than others, its relative. 

Back to my perspective, you can also pay for Boosters too, so is this game favoured to those with more disposable income? Well yes, as a FTP game, and the model it employs, but again, sort of depends on certain variables. A person who loves grinding and farming and would rather spend more time for the same thing, may not necessarily care. Boosters may be a detriment. Would be sort of an odd perspective maybe, to be that extreme, but eh. Warframe also has a lot of RNG elements. Last week in Circuit (SP) I got a Mod drop Chance Booster (SP Circuit Rewards are also generally much better than normal Circuit rewards too right?), which also stacks with Steel Path boosters, so last week I was able to get a lot of the new Mods faster than otherwise. Except one of those aspects was also tied to RNG (you can get Mod Drop chance Boosters in Sorties too, and you can't pay for them). Now to be clear, a lot of people do have criticisms and issues with RNG and the idea Warframe is P2W, and depending on the exact specifics, that includes me as well, but many aspects of them also don't bother me. Someone who can buy boosters will be at a general advantage over players that can't. Players who can buy boosters and do Steel Path, are also going to have certain advantages too. People who have reliable Warframe friends and buddies, also have certain advantages... Players who are flexible with their builds and kits... Players who are more knowledgable with modding... Even players with better maths and understanding of statistics/odds can have certain advantages... 

I do sympathise with the idea of players feeling at a disadvantage in various situations, especially, if they feel mislead by DE, just again, and for Steel Path specifically, its eh. Its tricky because again, we are dealing with overlapping sections of the playerbase. The divide also isn't necessarily between players who prefer Steel Path and those that do not, because other gaps exist to, some star chart players will struggle with later planets. So should all difficulty be abolished? Should Kuva Fortress and Sedna be as difficult as Earth? Its not really a yes or no question, in the sense its relative, and its very fair and makes sense that people will have their own sweet spot around challenge and difficulty and rate of earning rewards and preferences over that. My main point is that it can be hard to broadly accomodate the individual over large groups. 

I am okay with how DE currently does it. I can understand why people would be critical/bothered as well. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

5 hours ago, Tombsite said:

Not all resources are the same. So let’s ignore you being bad faith and try to explain that; NO resources aren’t just resources and there are ifs,what’s and buts.
  

If for some reason you need to be more efficient with gathering Nano-spores or Rubico, then sure Steel Path is a bit more efficient as you get a drop chance increase on those. If you have a rare mod that you’ve yet to be lucky to get from an enemy, Steel Path is a little bit more efficient.  Most of those there are already boosters for and unless you’re farming the Hema research or the Sybear I don’t think you’re in much need of the boost.

Void traces are not boosted by drop chance so there’s no reason to do relic missions in Steel Path outside of getting the Steel essence which was part of the initial deal. They are boosted by one of the paid boosters however. See how this resource is different?

 

You’re not getting more medallions/ Void feathers / Voca faster from Steel Path. Not even the paid boosters help her (though they used to a long time ago.). See how this resource is different?

My rotation A, B or C drop? Identical. Can’t influence what I get from this in any way. See how this resource is different?

 

Crystal fragments and Grotesk splinters. I get more of those from Steel Path per run. Can’t even boost them with paid boosters. See how this resource is different?

Now apparently in your haste to belittle me you fail to grasp a bit of this nuance. My problem was obviously with the last example.
Now you might not think that there’s any problem with things being as they are, but then make that argument instead of being silly.

Actually let's pretend like I rightfully stopped reading your post after the pompous condescending "let's ignore" comment.

Resources are resources. I'm sure you probably did your best to pull out every semantic argument you could think of in the post above but as explained, it was wasted. Mostly because its just a silly stance to begin with, but also now because it won't be read. 

If you were unaware that everything you listed was a resource, now you know. Problem solved and issue confirmed non-existent. Let's move on instead of replying despite now being fully and completely aware that your replies won't be read based on the terrible choice you made in how to communicate.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

18 hours ago, Tombsite said:

How do you feel about the Steel Path becoming the optimal way to play?  

Considering I play the game exclusively on Steel Path mode nowadays, it really doesn't bother me. Power creep in this game has grown to such an astronomical level that enemies in regular mode missions get Thanos snapped out of existence just from looking in my general direction. There is literally zero reason not to play the game on Steel Path now. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

I really like this, unless DE decides to balance things out, the only way to have a modicum of challenge and where our builds have some relevance is on the steel path, so I don't see anything wrong with getting more rewards for going to a way where dying is possible in some way.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

They're doing this because no one except the <1% niche players would play it otherwise. I dislike this as well, considering sponge path narrows build variety down tighter than a new Vegas V.....

 

It doesn't really narrow builds down. It just shows what's always been bad.
I remember when Fortuna came out. The community was crazy over Catchmoon but it was a terrible gun. Tombfinger was far superior.

Everyone got mad they nerf'd Banshee's 4th ability but using that ability at any notable level will get her killed. Same with Mag's Crush. I noted they added free cast speed on the augment. Probably for that exact same reason. Many things were never "viable", players were just punching far below their belt so they didn't notice.

That's the beauty of using real synergy. Catchmoon might have sucked but give it to Garuda.
CPx4 also drastically changed viability. It anything the entire game is more limited now at all levels.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Tombsite said:

How do you feel about the Steel Path becoming the optimal way to play?      

It has been the optimal way to play ever since it released. 

The difference is you likely didnt give a S#&amp;&#036; about the drops from the missions at that point in time but find an issue with it when new content arrives with new resources you actually want. So SP hasnt changed, your priorities and needs have. The mode is still the same, and still the optimal way to play.

Why you find a problem with SP being more rewarding at the same time as you are OK with the higher/lower level star chart missions tied to Voruna for instance is odd. It is practically the same thing, a high level version giving more loot and iirc a better chance at the actual rotational rewards. So why is it OK to have 2 difficulties with increasing yield but not 3?

[Tombsite]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It has been the optimal way to play ever since it released. 

The difference is you likely didnt give a S#&amp;&#036; about the drops from the missions at that point in time but find an issue with it when new content arrives with new resources you actually want. So SP hasnt changed, your priorities and needs have. The mode is still the same, and still the optimal way to play.

Why you find a problem with SP being more rewarding at the same time as you are OK with the higher/lower level star chart missions tied to Voruna for instance is odd. It is practically the same thing, a high level version giving more loot and iirc a better chance at the actual rotational rewards. So why is it OK to have 2 difficulties with increasing yield but not 3?

I don't have a problem because I suddenly want stuff I can’t have. I’m running a few assassinations on SP each day solo.
I got all the arcanes that I need from Scarlet spear and about a 100 tri-caps (More than enough to know I don’t want to do more). I’m farming the event so that I can have a rank 5 Arcane healing for completionist reasons. 

So no, the reason I give a “profanity” is in fact that the mode has changed.

It comes down to how much more optimal and how much more rewarding the Steel Path is becoming. From the start I got more from SP than the regular versions. I got more regular drops (less important outside of a few farms), more mods (an ok bonus) and Steel essence.

Then DE started to give me even more stuff for doing SP. First +20%, then +50% and now +100% of un-boostable drops in addition to Steel essence.

And the last increase came at an event where I honestly can’t feel much of a difference between regular and Steel path versions. It takes me basically the same effort to get twice the rewards and that just seems wrong.

So yes my question is a little faulty. I should probably have been “How do you feel about how much more optimal SP is becoming”, because it’s starting to screw over newer players who then feel a need to rush for SP because it is sooo much more efficient.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I'd hazard we can all agree that Steel Path has become something different than it was initially planned to be; the instant that primary and secondary arcanes were added to the Steel Path, doing the Steel Path became a normal part of power progression.  I think the only disagreement will be whether that's bad or not.

Personally, I think the way things are now is actually pretty great for everyone.  The game is balanced so that high-end builds are still overkill on Steel Path, and that means that there are so many builds that are insane levels of overkill for Normal Path.  That means that players who are looking for less difficulty or a more chill time can get it from Normal Path, while those who want something closer to a challenge can get it in the Steel Path.

If the reward increase was preposterous in the Steel Path, I could see that being a problem.  But at around double the efficacy, I think that's perfectly fine.  Most players will still be doing Normal Path, because they're casual and that suits them.

It's also worth highlighting that (with the potential exception of limited-time events like Gargoyle's Cry) farm rates are probably not super important to the bulk of the player base.  The forums skew hardcore, so it's normal for us to do things like math(!!!) to try to min-max our inputs and our outputs.  But a lot of people — even some of us on the forums! — are less focused on min-maxing every grind and are more focused on whatever makes us have a good time while playing.  Because Warframe is a leisure activity.  Min-maxing to certain degrees turns what should be fun into work, and that's a line a lot of players have no intention of crossing.

Anyway, in summary, I think things are in a good state right now, one that leaves things in a positive state for most players.

[Hypernaut1]

i wish we got, or will still get SP II. They were going to make be an even "harder" version of SP, but they abandoned it. Now SP feels like regular missions, and it would be nice to have yet another difficulty where we could challenge builds. SP is definitely part of progression now though, its not just a challenge mode anymore. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

God I cannot help but pity any newbie who gets told that the game starts at Steel Path by a bunch of power junkie veterans.

edit: In fact, if any newbies are listening right now; don’t listen to the community. They’re a shortcut towards hating the game. DE don’t realise how badly they’ve trained their monkeybrain players and put too much reliance on being taught by something other than the game, and you newbies are going to pay for it

Edited December 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

We need a mode more difficult than Steel Path. Enemy armor cannot be reduced and trash enemies within 20 meters of an Eximus unit will inherit its abilities.

[Xzorn]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Personally, I think the way things are now is actually pretty great for everyone.  The game is balanced so that high-end builds are still overkill on Steel Path, and that means that there are so many builds that are insane levels of overkill for Normal Path.  That means that players who are looking for less difficulty or a more chill time can get it from Normal Path, while those who want something closer to a challenge can get it in the Steel Path.

 

Now if only we could get missions that scale faster. It's all some of us ever wanted.
It was never about 4 hours in Survival. It was about fighting enemies that push back.

I used to push frames with no rewards involved because that's just what I liked doing.
Tinkering with real synergy. Not this, use ability 1 so ability 2 can function kinda synergy.

[(NSW)Greybones]

29 minutes ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

We need a mode more difficult than Steel Path. Enemy armor cannot be reduced and trash enemies within 20 meters of an Eximus unit will inherit its abilities.

Platinum Path; enemies start at level 1 million. Bigger numbers mean better fights, yeah? Veteran Validation for those who are fine with sacrificing every option until one choice stands out amongst all, and that choice needs to squash the content or it’s not worth chasing

Oh, energy is constantly draining too

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

On 2023-12-25 at 4:04 PM, Tombsite said:

You see Steel path as a thing that requires skill ("being good enough") and not just a gear check?

It kinda is if you run frames that tank off of shield gate, especially cc based ones...

[(NSW)Greybones]

36 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

It kinda is if you run frames that tank off of shield gate, especially cc based ones...

Go on. The only reason any element of player interaction in shieldgate abuse (an odd interaction for sure that only got its mod because DE identified that players were making their own fun with it and, being a game designed around the notion of “Make your own fun”, it made sense they’d keep it as an option in some form) is necessary is because players haven’t figured out how to stand around invincible for an infinite amount of time without input; any element of skill is due to the lack of being able to remove it and is not desired, and it’s not even a very good example of gameplay design

Edited December 27, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
not saying it can’t be understood as being entertaining and fun

[Raarsi]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

In fact, if any newbies are listening right now; don’t listen to the community. They’re a shortcut towards hating the game. DE don’t realise how badly they’ve trained their monkeybrain players and put too much reliance on being taught by something other than the game, and you newbies are going to pay for it

I definitely learned this the hard way with TNW.  Also more than positive that this is why we'll never get a SP 2: because catering to newbies rather than veterans whining about how easy everything is these days is just more financially beneficial.

On one hand, I think the SP stuff is a way of incentivizing players into doing SP content (especially the Duviri circuit).  Even now, I honestly don't put much thought into SP, only doing it for the handful of Duviri incarnons I like, and the resource factor still doesn't feel as relevant to me because of I don't mind the long easy grind for them over having to slog my way through SP.

Could I do it?  Probably since the Duviri circuit has shown me that I have plenty of SP-capable frames.  Do I want to do it?  Not really, especially if it promotes the kind of toxicity I've seen in far too many of these forum threads.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, Raarsi said:

I definitely learned this the hard way with TNW.  Also more than positive that this is why we'll never get a SP 2: because catering to newbies rather than veterans whining about how easy everything is these days is just more financially beneficial.

On one hand, I think the SP stuff is a way of incentivizing players into doing SP content (especially the Duviri circuit).  Even now, I honestly don't put much thought into SP, only doing it for the handful of Duviri incarnons I like, and the resource factor still doesn't feel as relevant to me because of I don't mind the long easy grind for them over having to slog my way through SP.

Could I do it?  Probably since the Duviri circuit has shown me that I have plenty of SP-capable frames.  Do I want to do it?  Not really, especially if it promotes the kind of toxicity I've seen in far too many of these forum threads.

Mm. I love seeing newbies jumping in, but I’m always afraid they’re going to get swayed into doing what the Veterans do; it’s like “We get it, human nature and all that; how about you veterans help them not succumb to primal instinct to their own detriment and to actually enjoy the game on their own terms at their own speed using what they want to use instead of trying to dictate what they should do and ultimately end up shortcutting them to treating the game like a second job and only hanging around because of that oh-so-influential serotonin hit from obtaining a new thing that ultimately never gets used because someone convinced them it wasn’t worth using”.

I was a newbie once, and was let down in the “Learn how to play the game your way” department until I actively went against what I was being told to do and discovered an actual game under the grind; I like the whole hands-off experimental discovery thing that this game does, but if someone needs to learn, I’d much rather they get their knowledge from the game hitting them over the head with basic knowledge that they can then use as they see fit instead since it doesn’t pass judgement or press someone into feeling like they need to rush.

The non-SP game from the modless start makes sense; abilities make sense, mechanics make sense, gameplay makes sense, limits make sense, damage types make sense, roles make sense, how you build with consideration for what you’re equipping and what you expect from it for the content you’re doing makes sense, all of it makes so much sense if someone learns the fundamentals and actually plays around with them without fear of whether they’re being optimal or not. And then SP throws the rulebook out the window along with most options and any sense of balance in order to be the place for  minmaxers to go and minmax, when the game already doesn’t need a player to sink 30 forma into Sevagoth or equip Umbral polarities on every frame or abandon the weapons or builds that someone would like to use. And if someone’s pressuring a newbie into getting into Steel Path like it’s where the game starts, then that newbie is in for a rough trip and an unsatisfying destination

Edited December 27, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)FirmBizkit]

13 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Honestly I’m kind of not surprised that DE heard how much players love talking about Steel Path and using it as the warped ruler to determine both viability of equipment as well as validation for the player, and were like “So I hear you like Steel Path; here’s more reason to play in it”.

Do I like it? No, it’s a mode that enables a handful of options and is the unimaginative player’s form of determining capability.

Am I surprised? Not really, this community suffers from more power than sense and has something to prove (“blah blah Opportunity Cost something something Can’t stop human nature blah blah Meta”), and can only shoehorn themselves into the few options that let them prove it while complaining about how boring and limited the game is

I dunno. I run some pretty off meta stuff and my build philosophy is largely based on effectiveness rather than pure damage on paper. Like if something makes something easier to use, I’m sacrificing the damage.

Like… Ignis Wraith is literally my most used gun and as far as I’m aware people consider it garbage 😂

Edited December 27, 2023 by (PSN)FirmBizkit

[Lilybun]

I exclusively play steel path because I get 0 satisfaction from bullying low level mobs that die so fast they don't even let me proc some arcanes. I almost exclusively play co-op as well because I think this game is way more fun when you get to see the wide variety of builds other people bring in and well... in regular star chart you can't really tell whos doing what and how well because there's no resistance from the enemies. They keel over and die in a nanosecond even if you forgot to mod your guns.

Honestly I think steel path should have even more rewards in the future (along with making it easier to access for newer players). I already had to swap to americas from my local oceania region because steel path was basically empty. If steel path provided no extra incentive to play it there'd be virtually no one for me to play with.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Lilybun