"AOE meta got nerfed, oh no" - no, it's still around... sadly

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

Running pub relic runs(Normal and SP both) makes me wonder, why do I even bother trying to use those actually good Incarnon weapons that I've farmed. Can't charge it even with a single precision headshot (let alone get a single stack of that headshot-based arcane), when all enemies are instantly dead split second after they spawn out of a fissure - all thanks to Tenet Arca Plasmor, Tenet Envoy, Sporelacer kitguns, Kuva Zarr/Bramma and the rest of the "supposedly nerfed" AOE weapons that people don't even have to aim at all. Same applies to literally any other single-target weapon - even non-incarnon, even if a very good one... Too bad.

I understand wanting to "optimize gameplay", especially relic runs. I really do. And yeah, AOE weapons do exactly that - no need to aim, just spray'n'pray. EZ braindead gameplay. I get it. But... AOE meta still around, still making single-target weapons irrelevant, incarnon or not.

Can't say how to make single-target stuff more relevant without nerfing AOE, but at least something can be done to Incarnons - just make them ALL charge up on body hits, like Angrstrum/Torid do. Otherwise it's pointless to even bother trying to get to the boosted incarnon forms - which are (usually, but not always) good. But you can't use em in those somewhat shorter relic run missions, because by the time you'd be able to use them(if at all!!!) - everyone's already dead, mission complete and you need to head to extract. The only time they are good are solo SP runs. Where you have all the time in the world and all the enemies left to you. Not being obliterated by AOE that people don't have to aim.

Discuss.

[Kaiga]

Ammo efficiency was nerfed for several guns that at this point seems rather redundant since like you described, explosives still dominate speedclearing efficiency.

All these changes did was make launcher weapons not already at the top hardly worth using, while bramma and laetum continue to dominate play.

I don't get it.

[trst]

AOE or no AOE WF still has the issue of the game not being remotely balanced for a full squad. Even if everyone only had single target weapons it then becomes down to who has the better nuke abilities. And removing those abilities it then becomes who lands their grouping ability and shoots first.

That said I support DE adding the other AOE nerfs that were discussed when AOE ammo was being addressed. Things like removing self stagger immunity from (Primed) Sure Footed and adding self damage back in. Both of those would curb mindless AOE spam to some extent but the core issue would remain.

[Zakkhar]

27 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Running pub relic runs(Normal and SP both) makes me wonder, why do I even bother trying to use those actually good Incarnon weapons that I've farmed. Can't charge it even with a single precision headshot (let alone get a single stack of that headshot-based arcane), when all enemies are instantly dead split second after they spawn out of a fissure - all thanks to Tenet Arca Plasmor, Tenet Envoy, Sporelacer kitguns, Kuva Zarr/Bramma and the rest of the "supposedly nerfed" AOE weapons that people don't even have to aim at all. Same applies to literally any other single-target weapon - even non-incarnon, even if a very good one... Too bad.

1. Why DO you bother? Enemies die, mission is complete, everyone is happy. %dmg on score screen doesnt matter.

2. Play solo or use a speedy frame and have good enemy awareness, so you can kill stuff before others even get there.

3. Dunno what weapons you are talking about but eg. Torid doesnt need precision headshots to charge and Incarnon form is an absolute beast. Shotguns are pretty hard to charge on non SP/non Eximus stuff, due to the stupid bug/overcompansation by WF devs and it has nothiing to do with AoE meta.

4. Melee stuff. Its fun and thanks to Tennokai you can occasionally do something else than Hold E.

Edited January 10 by Zakkhar

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

1. Why do you bother? Enemies die, mission is complete, everyone is happy. %dmg on score screen doesnt matter.

Fair point. Just don't wanna be falsely reported for "not contributing" or "AFKing"... when I couldn't even do it in the first place, due to non-AOE nature of my weapon, compared to theirs.

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

2. Play solo or use a speedy frame and have good enemy awareness, so you can kill stuff before others even get there.

Opening relics solo is not a good strat for relic farming, tbh.

2 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

3. Dunno what weapons you are talking about but eg. Torid doesnt need precision headshots to charge and Incarnon form is an absolute beast. Shotguns are pretty hard to charge on non SP/non Eximus stuff, due to the stupid bug/overcompansation by WF devs.

Torid/Angrstrum are the only two incarnons that charge up on body-shots, yes. Everything else requires headshots. I'm currently trying to use Burston Prime. Dunno, it just feels good to use - both in it's burst fire mod AND the 600-ammo incarnon "LMG" mode.

2 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

4. Melee stuff. Its fun and thanks to Tennokai you can occasionally do something else than Hold E.

Can't melee stuff if everything is already dead from AOElol :D

Besides... Who even uses melee these days, aside from a couple Incarnons as stat-sticks - be it stats for exalteds(Magistar incarnon on Khora, Innodem/Ceramic Dagger for others) or just for movement/parkour speeds(Prados) - and Glaive Prime(All factions except Corpus, for which you use Cerata instead). Rarely, Redeemer or Stropha(which needs it's combo counter fixed, cuz bugged).

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Can't charge it even with a single precision headshot (let alone get a single stack of that headshot-based arcane), when all enemies are instantly dead split second after they spawn out of a fissure

With respect, I think at least part of your problem is that the use-case you are focusing on is the strength of AoE weapons: a cluster of weak enemies.  This is the exact time when having an AoE weapon is supposed to be beneficial, because that's where AoE weapons shine.

Or actually, it might be more accurate to describe this use-case as a weakness of precision aiming tools.  Because it's not like AoE booms are the only good tool in this situation: you could also just dive in with your melee weapon and take the group out just as fast with no aiming required.  Anything that lets you punish all of those enemies for being so close to each other will get you more mileage in this scenario than a tool that is better at killing one enemy at a time.

As for the impact of the AoE nerfs, since then I've noticed a drastic decline in players killing every single enemy with AoE weapons.  With the reduced ammo economy, it is generally not sustainable to use AoE weapons on single targets; you have to pick and choose your shots, and you want to get the most bang for your buck, so most of the time these players don't waste ammo on individual enemies.

In regards to your struggles getting kills, one additional thing to consider is the type of mission you're in.  If you're in an Exterminate mission, 95% of the time you're in a kill race and the fastest killer is going to be getting most of the kills; that's simply the unfortunate nature of the game mode.  But in endless game modes like Survival where enemies appear and replenish from every angle, you won't be starved by AoE allies.  Or at least, it's something I'm simply not experiencing.

If there's anyone stealing my kills, it's my own Dethcube; that little auto-aimer is nasty with a Verglas!

Edited January 10 by (PSN)Unstar
phrasing

[stormy505]

18 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

bramma

I rarely ever see Bramma anymore. Like, why use the Bramma when the Tenet Arca Plasmore exists.

The ammo changes did a number on the Zarr and Bramma, still very good weapons but not nearly as everpresent as they were before. Cause they actually require people to run ammo buffing mechanics to use them in none camp scenarios.

The main issue was after introducing the Zarr and Bramma, nerfing them and fixing the aoe meta for a tiny bit of time, they went and introduced more AOE weapons largely unaffected by the aoe nerfs.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

2 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

The main issue was after introducing the Zarr and Bramma, nerfing them and fixing the aoe meta for a tiny bit of time, they went and introduced more AOE weapons largely unaffected by the aoe nerfs.

Exactly. Such as Tenet Arca Plasmor.

[(PSN)Unstar]

9 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Besides... Who even uses melee these days, aside from a couple Incarnons as stat-sticks

FWIW, melee is the bulk of my combat in Warframe.  It's really fun and effective, especially with Tennokai.  Dealing !!! crits has become a casual occurrence now that I've got Tennokai and Melee Animosity.  And...I'm using the Bo Prime, which is hardly meta.  I strongly encourage you to give the new melee tools a try, I'd be surprised if you didn't have fun!

[Merrcenary]

1 час назад, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ сказал:

all thanks to Tenet Arca Plasmor

thats not even aoe weapon lol

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

6 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

thats not even aoe weapon lol

It kinda is tho, all things considered... Huge(3m wide) projectile "wave" that can hit multiple enemies... Infinite body punch-through... Then also bounces over directly at other enemies instead of random direction... And it's very mcuh spammable too...

I dunno, fits the "AOE spam meta" description to me.

Edited January 10 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Kaiga]

44 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I rarely ever see Bramma anymore. Like, why use the Bramma when the Tenet Arca Plasmore exists.

Because the bramma is still the hardest hitting non-incarnon in the game. And is leauges ahead of the arca plasmor in terms of speedclearing. Sure you need to run ammo drum and carrier, and a decent amount of trigger discipline to undo the nerfs, but its still perfectly usable so long as the enemy density is there.

Edited January 10 by Kaiga

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

13 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Because the bramma is still the hardest hitting non-incarnon in the game. And is leauges ahead of the arca plasmor in terms of speedclearing. Sure you need to run ammo drum and carrier, and a decent amount of trigger discipline to undo the nerfs, but its still perfectly usable so long as the enemy density is there.

Wisp + Aero Vantage + Patagium + Aerodynamic aura + Kuva Bramma = stealth bomber, thanks to her passive of being cloaked while in the air. Don't spam, just "hover" in the air and wait a few seconds while enemies will gather in groups for you to nuke em with one singular shot and drop enough bundles of ammo for even regular ammo conversion(Vigilante Supplies) to be enough, no need for Carrier or Ammo drum. And due to the fact that you only make one single shot, you instantly re-cloak after it, preventing enemies from shooting you lol.

Does it work in Solo SP, on survivals? Yes, absolutely. Is it fun and borderline meme-ish, despite ACTUALLY working quite well? Yeah, very much is. Does it work in any Public matches? Obviously not, especially with randoms.

Edited January 10 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Xzorn]

You can't get rid of an AoE meta in a horde shooter. I mean, have you seen SP survivals? It's silly.

They shoulda never gotten rid of self damage. Esp since it goofed up weapons that didn't deserve it like Zarr's bomblets.
Still, Ignis is my most used weapon because it's a farming game and it's a near pinnacle farming weapon.

Did I ever use Ignis in endurance runs? Once for Mesa Viral + Rad for Nullifiers and CC. That's it.
The parse for frame/weapon performance has always been drastically higher than typical content we get.

[stormy505]

30 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Because the bramma is still the hardest hitting non-incarnon in the game. And is leauges ahead of the arca plasmor in terms of speedclearing. Sure you need to run ammo drum and carrier, and a decent amount of trigger discipline to undo the nerfs, but its still perfectly usable so long as the enemy density is there.

I did call the Zarr and Bramma still very good weapons. Like top 10. Just not everpresent anymore. Cause they kinda need energized munitions to not feel bad to use. And that's not a good fit on a lot of frames cause you need HIGH duration. Volt is a great fit though. And even then, can't get away with bombing single enemies.

If by speedclearing we're talking SP exterminate, yeah probably between Bramma and Zarr. Though when you start factoring any single target stuff I think it falls off, Acolytes, Angels, the Stone Boss, even Thraxx/eximus its kinda eh once you're even slightly deep into the circuit/sp mode.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

That's how any game works: you build for the scenario. It's a quick mission and if it's an exterminate, why snipe enemies when I could just do that in a 45min solo survival? 

And also....you know i can still steal your kills with my 9 meter melee, right? 

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Besides... Who even uses melee these days, aside from a couple Incarnons as stat-sticks - be it stats for exalteds(Magistar incarnon on Khora, Innodem/Ceramic Dagger for others) or just for movement/parkour speeds(Prados) - and Glaive Prime(All factions except Corpus, for which you use Cerata instead). Rarely, Redeemer or Stropha(which needs it's combo counter fixed, cuz bugged).

I do. My favourite ones currently are Lesion, Innodem, Exodia Contagion Zaws, Telos Boltace, Heavy attack Pennant/Reaper Prime, Ceti Lacera and Ohma for giggles. I used to run Redeemer and Xoris, may come back to them considering they fixed the Heavy Hybrid builds with Tennokai. My Glaive P is mastery fodder, so is Stropha and Praedos. Cerata I used to use to self damage Chroma back when self damage was a thing.

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Can't melee stuff if everything is already dead from AOElol :D

Sure can if you get there first.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

2 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Discuss.

not much more can be done about AoE weapons without them becoming totally useless again, and in a horde shooter, AoE is always gonna be top. playing public, it's inevitable you will come across people who will take AoE spam to get things done quickly. I'm sure you already know all this, but there isn't anything else to be done about it, without drastically changing AoE weapons (again) and causing another uproar.

incarnons charging on bodyshots would help though. 

Edited January 10 by (PSN)robotwars7

[SDGDen]

12 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

1. Why DO you bother? Enemies die, mission is complete, everyone is happy. %dmg on score screen doesnt matter.

idk about you, but to me, the point of playing the game isn't "to complete the mission", the point is to *have fun*. i aint havin fun walkin behind revenant main #23945 with their AOE spam meta weapon build nuking the whole map instantly.

 

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

They shoulda never gotten rid of self damage. Esp since it goofed up weapons that didn't deserve it like Zarr's bomblets.
Still, Ignis is my most used weapon because it's a farming game and it's a near pinnacle farming weapon.

this. self damage *needs* to return, and not just self damage: imho heavy units should have DR against AOE effects (both ability and weapon based), making it a good idea to *at the very least* run your AOE weapon together with something that can do high single-target damage because your AOE gear isnt going to do squat against the heavy units. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

In any type of endless any weapon class will work and allow you to get incarnon charges/kills and so on. I'm not sure why people really care what happens in short missions that are on their own the root of the problem due to limited enemies, quick objectives, no scaling based on group size and so on.

Since WitW released melee has some of the best AoE options. And with Dual Ichor I would say the best since it pretty much turns anyone that wields it/them into a Saryn the moment you trigger the incarnon form. Exodia Contagion Zaws also turned even stronger. In both cases it is thanks to arcanes. Then you have practically any other melee that can turn into a very reliable AoE with the right build since WitW introduced melee arcanes.

Also why would you bring single target to a public group when you should expect that people likely just want to get that 1000th or 10000th run over with asap, so will bring AoE with their AoE that has AoE on the AoE. It just reminds me of a friend I used to play with that had his ideas and would bring the complete opposite of what was useful in games we played. He'd be in that single target mindset in say D3 when we were going to farm, then in some other game he brought all out AoE when we were going to farm bosses. Then looking like a big ? afterwards when he had poor performance.

Edited January 11 by SneakyErvin

[Dunkelheit]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Zakkhar:

1. Why DO you bother? Enemies die, mission is complete, everyone is happy. %dmg on score screen doesnt matter

Well, this might sound very oldschool, but I honestly play Warframe to kill enemies and shoot stuff. If you have fun running behind someone clearing everything for you, don't assume that other opinions are the same as yours.

[Skoomaseller]

i can keep up without issue on my trusty prisma gorgon

[DontRunWScissors]

I feel this post misses that the entire reason AoE weapons like the Bramma, Plasmor, etc. are so prevalent is because of the specific missions that they're being used on. Low level fissures will always be dominated by the most convenient source of AoE damage. It doesn't even need to be the best amount, just enough to kill the enemies quickly because they're all low level. As for SP, Incarnons are absolutely dominant over Kuva/Tenet AoE. The amount of downtime they have is negligible if you know how to utilize them. I consistently top damage the few public missions I still run with Latron Incarnon. Changing the requirement to bodyshots would be ridiculous and remove any incentive that incarnons provide to actually use your brain every few minutes or so.

 

TLDR:
Kuva/Tenet AoE better for low level
Incarnons best for SP/high level
Incarnon charge is easy enough to generate already, only exception is really infested.

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Well, this might sound very oldschool, but I honestly play Warframe to kill enemies and shoot stuff. If you have fun running behind someone clearing everything for you, don't assume that other opinions are the same as yours.

Play solo/premade or pick a meta weapon yourself. It is a choice. Player chooses one thing over another, then has to take responsibility forthe decisions.

[trst]

43 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Play solo/premade or pick a meta weapon yourself. It is a choice. Player chooses one thing over another, then has to take responsibility forthe decisions.

And AOE gives players the choice to remove all other choices from the three other players in the squad. Every "suggestion" you've provided also works for those utilizing AOE which ruins any point you've been trying to make here.

No, the actual choices are: "play the meta and get forcibly carried anyways if someone is being more meta than you", "play solo if you want to use anything else", or "hope you only get players who're looking to get carried/putting in less effort then you are".

And as I pointed out earlier this issue extends beyond regular AOE weapons. WF is a complete mess that killed co-op through powercreep then continued to beat its corpse into dust.

Edited January 11 by trst