Are rivens strong - do we need disposition in the current power level?

[quxier]

I've been wondering if riven system is strong and we need disposition.

 

I had riven for Grimoire but with its low disposition it's useless (cost more, give not too much).

 

On other hand we have high disposition rivens. However you get good stats but it will go up to the level better weapon. And those better weapons may have certain gimmick that you want. For example Gunsen have 1.35 disposition but Arum spinosa or Quassus has projectile that I like.

Then we have armor stripping. You can put it via Helminth (Styanax' Tarros strike or Hildryn's Pillage to name few). Focus school, corrossive + 2 shards etc.

Then we have abilities that boost our damage, like Rhino/Roar (Helmithalbe), crit boost (Dagath, Kullervo) etc.

 

At this point, do we need disposition? Couldn't we set it at static 1.5? Am I missing something? They don't work on weaker weapons nor change better one. They are just harder to acquire (not counting buying), with lot of RNG and more drain.

[trst]

Except they're still doing what they were originally intended to do? They make weaker weapons better (this is an undisputable fact as a Riven on a decent dispo weapon condenses 2-3 mods into one slot) while stronger weapons don't need a Riven in the first place. Plus regardless of their performance they exist as a time/resource drain for players who want to min-max while having nothing else to work on which is another of their original purposes.

Also I'd suspect the system would only be received worse if disposition was just removed. Since currently a player can, and should, ignore Rivens for already strong weapons. But making them worthwhile upgrades for them will push more players into "feeling forced" to farm for them.

 

Personally the only change I can ever see Rivens actually needing is a new way to acquire them for specific weapons. Since the pool only gets more diluted with every new weapon it only becomes more difficult to begin the process of upgrading your favorite weapon. It's effectively fallen into the same issue as the old Void Key system and that required a rework to deal with the bloated drop tables.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

At this point, do we need disposition? Couldn't we set it at static 1.5? Am I missing something?

It's an open secret Rivens were a mistake DE doesn't want to support. Currently disposition is more about keeping speculative asset flippers happy more than actually helping solve anything...

Ok so, when Rivens were first added they all had disposition 1, and DE increases or decreased them manually. This led to some new stronger variant weapons (Tenet Plasmor) being added AFTER the original already had a disposition decrease (Arca Plasmor). This obviously resulted in a speculation frenzy where everyone KNEW these stronger rivens would be quickly nerfed but they were valuable anyway, and the inevitable nerfs made the speculation traders really mad because they now had perishable goods, Rivens that were only going to be strong for about three months

After some revisions, all new weapons are now set to minimum disposition immediately, regardless of power. This is why the Grimoire's got the lowest disposition. The logic here was, now speculation traders could only ever see their value go up, never down. "Line goes up" and all that, so they should never be mad. And this theory will work as long as Rivens are actually in demand (I for one have long since abandoned them, Galvanized Scope does everything any riven could do but better)

[LastSkybreaker]

The best thing DE could do for the game would be remove rivens altogether and rely on deterministic systems (incarnons) to bring old weapons up to current power standards.

Though that probably won't happen because a few people would make a big stink about it.

[Aldain]

Honestly if I could go back in time and have DE make Weapon Arcanes and Incarnons first instead of Riven mods I would in a hearbeat.

Both of those are much more healthy and practical ways of empowering things (especially Incarnon boosts on older weapons) than the RNG that are Riven mods, and I say that as a guy who has a Quellor Riven that makes it much more fun to use for me.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

The disposition wasn't created because other boosts didn't exist....they are there to stack and make builds off of.

The dispo is there so when everyone flocks to a bramma, the dispo goes down....and since no one even knows the Harpak exists....the dispo goes up. 

The dispo 0.5 change was due to players complaining about their "investments" being ruined e.g. spending 10k plat on a riven and watching your dispo slowly go down from 1.1 to 0.6. 

 

1 hour ago, EddyJWasTaken said:

The best thing DE could do for the game would be remove rivens altogether and rely on deterministic systems (incarnons) to bring old weapons up to current power standards.

Though that probably won't happen because a few people would make a big stink about it.

And also because people are capable of nuance....and tweak things instead of destroying them altogether. 

If your toilet breaks...do you demolish your house?

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Except they're still doing what they were originally intended to do? They make weaker weapons better (this is an undisputable fact as a Riven on a decent dispo weapon condenses 2-3 mods into one slot) while stronger weapons don't need a Riven in the first place. Plus regardless of their performance they exist as a time/resource drain for players who want to min-max while having nothing else to work on which is another of their original purposes.

Removing Disposition still accomplishes "what they were originally intended to do" without punishing players for wanting to use new weapons or adding needless maintenance for DE staff every Prime Access.

1 hour ago, trst said:

Also I'd suspect the system would only be received worse if disposition was just removed. Since currently a player can, and should, ignore Rivens for already strong weapons. But making them worthwhile upgrades for them will push more players into "feeling forced" to farm for them.

Personally the only change I can ever see Rivens actually needing is a new way to acquire them for specific weapons. Since the pool only gets more diluted with every new weapon it only becomes more difficult to begin the process of upgrading your favorite weapon.

I wouldn't be so conclusive. You didn't mention that Rivens would become instantly useable on new equipment, make new variants feel like direct upgrades for Riven users, stats would become much easier to balance and more streamlined as predictable bonuses with relative expected performance gains, and players would not feel coned into a "meta set" of stats because the Disposition is so low that there is no room for more niche stats.

I would also agree that players should be given more ways to manipulate what they have as far as weapons and stat magnitudes/grades go. I suggested some years ago the possibility of allowing players to unlock a Riven and the weapon used to unlock the Riven would dictate the weapon family (i.e unveiling a Rifle Riven on Daikyu means it only chooses from bows as a pool). The other thing they could do is guarantee a weapon family when transmuting (4 different Tonfa Rivens gaurentees a Tonfa Riven in return that isn't one of the weapons you just transmuted). Increasing or decreasing stat grades would also be nice as an extra layer of investment.

1 hour ago, trst said:

It's effectively fallen into the same issue as the old Void Key system and that required a rework to deal with the bloated drop tables.

Void Relics didn't exactly "fix" that problem, and neither did Prime Resurgence. We're over halfway to 1000 unique Relics, some of which were only available if you were playing during Specters of the Rail and had keys converted.

[Voltage]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The disposition wasn't created because other boosts didn't exist....they are there to stack and make builds off of.

The dispo is there so when everyone flocks to a bramma, the dispo goes down....and since no one even knows the Harpak exists....the dispo goes up. 

The dispo 0.5 change was due to players complaining about their "investments" being ruined e.g. spending 10k plat on a riven and watching your dispo slowly go down from 1.1 to 0.6. 

And also because people are capable of nuance....and tweak things instead of destroying them altogether. 

Relative weapon power and popularity has never had anything to do with Disposition. The only cases where Dispositions fed into the problem of an innate mechanic was percentage based melee range through level geometry, additive melee critical chance on slide attack that stacked with Blood Rush, Multiplicative base damage to exponential Condition Overload, and the massive spike in strength from 100% status chance on Shotguns (namely 92.5% SC Rivens for Mara Detron and 120% SC Rivens for Kohm). 

The reason players make posts about it every time is because they've never been a beneficial mechanic towards weapon balance.

DE also just embarrass themselves when they nerf weapon dispositions that were used solely as a stat-stick or for an augment (Pseudo-Exalted weapons, Amalgam Furax Body Count, Amalgam Ripkas True Steel, etc.). The spike in usage and power for Ocucor and Torid are from a powerful Nightwave augment and the Incarnon Adapter system. Nerfing the disposition on either of these weapons does absolutely nothing to influence player weapon choices and only hurts players who don't own the absolute meta stats. Reducing disposition only tightens the available stat rolls worth slotting, and doesn't benefit anyone.

Prime Access weapons and other new variants have been dead on arrival for years for players who care to use Rivens, because there is just no point unless you are slotting Rivens worth 4-5 digit minimums which only add a tiny power boost to an existing weapon family. The only reason Incarnon Genesis popped off with Riven Mods so well is because unlike Primes, they were boosts to existing weapons, so they retained their Riven Disposition. If Torid Incarnon was a Torid weapon variant, much less people would be caring about Rivens for it, yet the usage of it would be exactly as popular as it is now.

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

If your toilet breaks...do you demolish your house?

In your hypothetical, the house is on a cracked foundation, the roof is always taking in water, and you have termites.

Edited February 8 by Voltage

[Xzorn]

Rivens didn't do what they were "supposed" to do. It doesn't take a genius to realize +300% of 5% still isn't a good number.
That's not a jab at DE. That's a jab at the reasoning of their purpose. The better reason shows in stocks from 2017-2018.

It's like Hema when they wouldn't budge on the cost but mutagen samples started dropping more and they added resource nodes.

Outside some special situations like 100% status with shotguns or endurance runner weapons players over looked like Torrid/Zarr. The system was more about trade than any game mechanics. It wasn't until they did a total rework of weapons, enemy defense scaling, status effects and IPS weight that Rivens started to work more normally.

I can only imagine the pain Rivens have caused the playerbase over the years. I had a CC/CD/Toxic/-%Impact War Riven I was just waiting for disposition changes on. Never figured why people were using it when Galantine/Gram Prime were around. Anyways that potential Pure Elemental build was ruined by adding IPS to the weapon.

They start out a 1/5 disposition now instead of 5/5 because of players like me who can spot trending weapons. I sold a Catchmoon on release for 9k.
No one in their right mind is going to get a perfect roll riven just to watch it erode in their inventory. Lets not forget about the Riven Discord either.

Inarnons are the better way to make older weapons good. It's a shame they just dip right back into Rivens again. I sold a Torrid riven for 5k on my return.

[trst]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Removing Disposition still accomplishes "what they were originally intended to do" without punishing players for wanting to use new weapons or adding needless maintenance for DE staff every Prime Access.

I wouldn't be so conclusive. You didn't mention that Rivens would become instantly useable on new equipment, make new variants feel like direct upgrades for Riven users, stats would become much easier to balance and more streamlined as predictable bonuses with relative expected performance gains, and players would not feel coned into a "meta set" of stats because the Disposition is so low that there is no room for more niche stats.

Sure they could still serve the original purpose without dispositions but it then pushes into the other issue of players feeling forced to get Rivens for anything new. No longer could players refuse to touch the system over them not being worth using on new weapons/variants as they'd then always be a substantial upgrade to everything. It's just like the friction the Shard system created with players feeling like they can only use Tau Forged Shards or nothing at all and creating their own issues out of that belief.

And especially with the gripes players have with the Riven market we would only see yet more issues out of that with every Riven becoming powerful out the gate. All in all Rivens being usable immediately would result in a load of issues thanks to players loving to create problems where there are none.

12 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Void Relics didn't exactly "fix" that problem, and neither did Prime Resurgence. We're over halfway to 1000 unique Relics, some of which were only available if you were playing during Specters of the Rail and had keys converted.

Those systems did solve the Key pool bloat by compartmentalizing the whole thing. Things can't get uncontrollably bloated when each Relic has a fixed 6 items they can drop and only so many Relics are allowed into rotation at any point. And having too many Relics in total isn't a problem (sure the Relic list gets bloated but that's a UI issue instead of a gameplay one) since old ones don't need to return so long as the items they contain come back in rotation.

[UnstarPrime]

Disposition is the fundamental point of Rivens: weapons that players aren't using get up to 3 mods worth of buffs in a single slot to enhance their power, and weapons that plenty of players are already using get much smaller buffs to the point where a Riven is much less worth the effort.  In this way, Rivens attempt to level the playing field and promote greater weapon diversity, and while it certainly isn't a perfect solution to the problem, it is a fairly effective one.  Removing Disposition would throw that entire benefit in the trash.

Edited February 8 by UnstarPrime
Sidenote: There are weapons with maxed Riven dispositions that I've used that — even with very good Riven rolls — were not as powerful as actual meta weapons without Rivens. But it did give them enough of an edge that they became "good enough".

[Xzorn]

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Relics, some of which were only available if you were playing during Specters of the Rail and had keys converted.

 

Oh my god I hated that. Thanks for 1,200 mag relics DE. Took me forever to get rid of those.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Relative weapon power and popularity has never had anything to do with Disposition. The only cases where Dispositions fed into the problem of an innate mechanic was percentage based melee range through level geometry, additive melee critical chance on slide attack that stacked with Blood Rush, Multiplicative base damage to exponential Condition Overload, and the massive spike in strength from 100% status chance on Shotguns (namely 92.5% SC Rivens for Mara Detron and 120% SC Rivens for Kohm). 

The reason players make posts about it every time is because they've never been a beneficial mechanic towards weapon balance.

DE also just embarrass themselves when they nerf weapon dispositions that were used solely as a stat-stick or for an augment (Pseudo-Exalted weapons, Amalgam Furax Body Count, Amalgam Ripkas True Steel, etc.). The spike in usage and power for Ocucor and Torid are from a powerful Nightwave augment and the Incarnon Adapter system. Nerfing the disposition on either of these weapons does absolutely nothing to influence player weapon choices and only hurts players who don't own the absolute meta stats. Reducing disposition only tightens the available stat rolls worth slotting, and doesn't benefit anyone.

Prime Access weapons and other new variants have been dead on arrival for years for players who care to use Rivens, because there is just no point unless you are slotting Rivens worth 4-5 digit minimums which only add a tiny power boost to an existing weapon family. The only reason Incarnon Genesis popped off with Riven Mods so well is because unlike Primes, they were boosts to existing weapons, so they retained their Riven Disposition. If Torid Incarnon was a Torid weapon variant, much less people would be caring about Rivens for it, yet the usage of it would be exactly as popular as it is now.

In your hypothetical, the house is on a cracked foundation, the roof is always taking in water, and you have termites.

Why did the Kronen riven dispo slowly go down over time, then? 

Also for the house example....still...the average person doesn't have the money to tear down a house just because a series of repairs needs to be made. 

It's an old saying called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

It's a quick quip to throw out by people clearly biased against rivens due to not understanding them, or not liking them for ruining their game etc. 

I was pointing out to the other poster that "just get rid of rivens" isn't anything close to a solution. 

[Aldain]

I wish I had a picture of this Aklato Riven I have, even with almost 500% extra damage on it the damn thing is still basically a cap gun,

Like Xzorn said above, the critical failure point of Riven mods is that small numbers can't benefit from even the largest multiplication bonus.

That's why I like the Incarnons more, they actually reinforce things natural stats (admittedly not by any game changing amount usually) and give a new function on top of that.

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Why did the Kronen riven dispo slowly go down over time, then? 

Because Ohma released with Sovereign Outcast the year prior to Kronen Prime's release and Tonfas hit twice on slide attacks. Kronen Prime also offers a parkour bonus. It's the same reason Telos Boltace was used so widely after Stormpath was added and the previous passive was obliterated. Kronen Disposition was high because of base Kronen (pre-Titania Prime Access), and it slowly went down as people used it (with the help of content creators pushing it) for the effectiveness it offered. The only reason Kronen Prime fell out of favor was because of Praedos, not because of its Disposition decrease. You're also forgetting the Glaive buffs that were added which overshadowed "typical melee" usage.

I've been following Disposition "lore" since before we had Riven Disposition. It's been missing the mark since it was proposed as a Dev Workshop 7 years ago.

Edited February 8 by Voltage

[Voltage]

Nerfing a Riven disposition in the hopes of balancing the relative power is like when DE lowered the percentages of Roar and Eclipse in Helminth thinking that would influence player choices more when they subsume an ability. Spoiler: it didn't.

[sly_squash]

Disposition was poorly-conceived from the very start.

You can't tell me they thought any of this through from the start when new, vastly-improved Prime variants of a weapon adopted the same disposition as their garbage original weapons and it took years before they decided maybe that wasn't a good idea.

The biggest problems with dispo afaic are:

1. Pretending like all weapons are "equal" now because rivens+dispo smooth over all the balancing inconsistencies
   Like Xzorn said, +300% of 5% isn't going to make the weapon suddenly good.  It's one thing to put limits on the best weapons to ensure rivens don't make them insanely overpowered.  But it's another thing to try and use dispo to achieve weapon equity, because it's just never going to happen anyway.
    
2. Dispos are updated too infrequently and far too conservatively
   It doesn't exactly shake up the meta when 5 weapons get -0.05 dispo and 5 others get +0.05 dispo every 6 months.  This is especially a problem when coupled with #3...
    
3. Starting all new weapons at 0.5 (worst) dispo is really dumb
   "Yay I got a Grimoire riven!  Can't wait for 3 years from now when the dispo finally climbs to something usable!"
   
   I get it.  Warframe players are a bunch of babies.  They cried like crazy when catchmoon got nerfed.  Then they actively boycotted the game when Wukong got nerfed.  So your thinking is if we start at garbage dispo we never need to nerf and the babies will stop crying.
   
   But dispos are updated very slowly and 0.5 dispo is an absolute garbage dispo that is likely far away from where the new weapons dispo belongs.
   
   Just start the weapons at the dispo you think they deserve and make minor adjustments from there.  Use your warframe creators to assess the weapon strength and give their own recommendations if you need early feedback at where to set this number.  Make minor adjustments from there (yes, that means the occasional minor dispo nerf; we'll live).

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

31 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Because Ohma released with Sovereign Outcast the year prior to Kronen Prime's release and Tonfas hit twice on slide attacks. Kronen Prime also offers a parkour bonus. It's the same reason Telos Boltace was used so widely after Stormpath was added and the previous passive was obliterated. Kronen Disposition was high because of base Kronen (pre-Titania Prime Access), and it slowly went down as people used it (with the help of content creators pushing it) for the effectiveness it offered. The only reason Kronen Prime fell out of favor was because of Praedos, not because of its Disposition decrease. You're also forgetting the Glaive buffs that were added which overshadowed "typical melee" usage.

I've been following Disposition "lore" since before we had Riven Disposition. It's been missing the mark since it was proposed as a Dev Workshop 7 years ago.

Praedoes was released in 2022, and kronen dispo was already 0.85 down to 0.7 in Feb 2021. Even October 2020 it went from 1.05 to 0.85.

My memory isn't the best so it's not worth arguing over, but I feel like I remember a lot of complaints about riven dispos being lowered for numerous popular weapons. 

[Xzorn]

16 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

They cried like crazy when catchmoon got nerfed.  Then they actively boycotted the game when Wukong got nerfed.  So your thinking is if we start at garbage dispo we never need to nerf and the babies will stop crying.

 

Ironically at the time players were asking for disposition updates at a faster pace.
Not sure why but I saw Topics often and DE did so. Least that's where I left off for a 5 year break.

18 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Just start the weapons at the dispo you think they deserve and make minor adjustments from there.

 

Yea, in reality this isn't hard. I have pages of weapon calculations from my endurance runner days.
Way more than any web based calc is gunna give you. Theory crafting and fine tuning was how I made my fun back then.

 

This is me just going ham on different PDC (Prisma Dual Cleaver) builds. *spoiler* Pure physical + Weeping was the best against armor.

Spoiler

60/60 + Weeping at x3.5 Combo 100% status
8228.95 Damage
Proc Weight
11438.8 + 3431.653 = 14,870.463
Slash 10294.956 / 14870.463 = 0.6923 = 69.23%
Viral 3431.653 / 14870.463 = 0.2308 = 23.08%
Avg Bleed Tick 1,309.15 (9,164.06 per proc)
Avg Bleed per proc output at 69.23% = 6,344.28
Over 6 second + Viral proc 6 * 1.605 = 60k * 2 = 120k

PDC 60/60 x2 + Weeping at x3 combo 100% status
4893.283 Avg. Damage, 1.75 RoF, 2224.220 Phys (1779.376 Slash), 2669.694 Viral
Proc Weight
8896.88 phys 2669.694 Viral = 11,566.574
Viral Weight 2669.694 / 11566.574 = .2308 = 23.08%
Slash Weight 7117.504 / 11566.574 = .6154 = 61.54%
Avg. Bleed Tick 778.477 ( 5,449.339 Total per Proc )
Avg. Bleed per Proc at 61.54% = 3,353.26
Status Trigger per Second = 1.75
Avg. Slash Trigger per Second = 1.07695
Avg. Viral Trigger per Second = 0.4039
Estimated Damage per hit 4893.283 + 5868.205 = 10,761.488

PDC 90% x2 + True Steel at x3 combo 25% status
9494.111 Avg. Damage, 1.75 RoF, 3390.753 Phys ( 2712.603 Slash ), 6103.358 Viral
Proc Weight
13563.012 phys + 6103.350 Viral = 19666.362
Viral Weight 6103.35 / 19666.362 = 0.3105 = 31.05%
Slash Weight 10850.412 / 19666.362 = 0.5517 = 55.17%
Avg Bleed Trick 1,186.76355 ( 8,307.34485 Total per Proc )
Avg Bleed per Proc at 55.17% = 4,583.162
Avg Bleed per Attack 1,145.7905
Status Trigger per Second = 0.4375
Avg. Slash Trigger per Second = 0.24137
Avg. Viral Trigger per Second = 0.1358
Estimated Damage per hit 9494.111 + 1145.7905 = 10,639.9015
Damage Vs Cflesh: 254.306 + 339.075 + 3390.754 + 10680.877 = 14,665.012
Estimated Damage per hit Vs Cflesh: 14665.012 + 1145.7905 = 15,810.80
Estimated DPS 15810.80 * 1.75 = 27,668.90

PDC 90%x2 + Weeping at x3 combo 58.75% Status
6227.814 Avg. Damage, 1.75 RoF, 2224.220 ( 1779.376 Slash ), 4003.594 Viral
Proc Weight
8,896.88 pys + 4003.594 Viral = 12,900.474
Viral Weight 4003.594 / 12900.474 = 0.31035 = 31.04%
Slash Weight 7117.504 / 12900.474 = 0.5517 = 55.17%
Avg Bleed Trick 778.477 ( 5,449.339 Total per Proc )
Avg Bleed per Proc at 55.17% = 3,006.40
Status Trigger per Second = 1.028125
Avg Slash Trigger per Second = 0.56723
Avg. Viral Trigger per Second = 0.31913
Estimated Damage per hit 6227.814 + 1705.32 = 7,933.13

PDC 60/60 x2 + True Steel at x3 combo 55% Status
7459.659 Avg Damage, 1.75 RoF, 3390.753 phys (2712.603 Slash) +  4068.906 Viral
Proc Weight
13563.012 phys + 4068.906 Viral = 17631.918
Viral Weight 4068.906 / 17631.918 = 0.2308 = 23.08%
Slash Weight 10850.412 / 17631.918 = 0.6154 = 61.54%
Avg Bleed Tick 1,186.764 ( 8,307.35 Total per Proc )
Avg Bleed per Proc at 61.54% = 5,112.34
Avg Bleed per Attack = 2,811.787
Status Trigger per Second = 0.9625
Slash Trigger per Second = 0.222145
Viral Trigger per Second = 0.5923225
Estimated Damage per Attack 7459.659 + 2811.787 = 10.271.445
Damage Vs Cflesh: 254.306 + 339.075 + 3390.754 + 7120.586 = 11,104.721
Estimated Damage per hit Vs Cflesh 11104.721 + 2811.787 = 13,916.508
Estimated DPS Vs Cflesh 13915.508 * 1.75 = 24,353.889

 

Unlike me at the time they could have made algorithms you just slap stats into and get results.
I'd do that now since I updated my coding knowledge but it's no longer required for the game.
It could even consider average enemy density of volume of shots.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Rivens with low dispo can be quite strong if they allow you to go above certain thresholds, like crit chance reaching just above the next crit tier or reducing your crit chance to zero (like -crit chance phenmor, felarx or laetum), a certain quantity of multishot to ensure you fire a set amount of projectiles rather than being stuck at like 350% multishot with galv mods which amounts to a 50% chance at a 4th shot per ammo.

Like some of previous posts, I'd like to reiterate the point about how adding more stats to something that does virtually nothing by design isn't going to change anything. Weapons that have maxed out riven dispositions still are not going to perform anywhere close to something that works in a similar fashion but with higher base stats, even if you take these with standard rivenless builds.

One thing that doesn't sit right with me is how they can make or break pseudo exalted abilities (and the fact that they're increased tenfold by melee incarnon perks on top).

 

Now if we're talking about how Riven disposition always starts out at 0.5, I think it's kind of unfair towards prime weapons specifically. Let me explain :

When a completely new weapon comes out, with new mechanics and all sorts of quirky stuff, you never know exactly in advance just how strong it is before you've got it in your hands, so alright, fair enough I can see the argument, but in the case of primes it's kinda bs, because unless the prime greatly alters a base mechanic, adds one or drastically changes base stats, there is no specific reason the riven shouldn't be much lower than 0.10~0.2 dispo when compared to the base weapon's riven dispo.

We all know how your average braton performs, the prime version doesn't alter stats so much that the dispo should fall so low as to have mods give less stats than basic mods. At the end of the day the prime is still a better variant and thus has every reason to be straight up better, even with the same mod setup. And well, in the case of the braton specifically, the incarnon mode is the one thing that changes everything, if you put a perfect riven modded incarnonless braton against a rivenless incarnon braton, the incarnon will always come on top, simply because base stats modification is that much stronger than final stats modification.

Though to be fair, riven dispositions could definitely be anticipated, like if it's an assault rifle with medium~low stats, there's no reason for it to start at 0.5 when it should instead start at 1.1 at the bare minimum, inversly, if you know you have a weapon with really high crit chance, crit multiplier, status chance and comes with a wide AoE, has decent ammo economy and has really good usability in terms of fire rate and reload speed, you already know it has no business having a dispo beyond 0.7 at best.

 

il y a 6 minutes, Xzorn a dit :

Unlike me at the time they could have made algorithms you just slap stats into and get results.

It could even consider average enemy density of volume of shots.

If they did, we'd have decent riven dispos at launch, all we need to do is to calculate single target average dps and multi target average dps, maybe factor in the trigger type to favor semi / burst and we're set. Just slightly adjust it based on average weapon usage but don't make that your primary cue to alter the value.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Praedoes was released in 2022, and kronen dispo was already 0.85 down to 0.7 in Feb 2021. Even October 2020 it went from 1.05 to 0.85.

My memory isn't the best so it's not worth arguing over, but I feel like I remember a lot of complaints about riven dispos being lowered for numerous popular weapons. 

My point is that popularity influences disposition, but innate weapon mechanics are what influence player choice. You could have had Kronen Rivens at .5 dispo the entire time the weapon was out, and I'm sure you would have still had that period of excessive popularity. All Disposition does is punish players who are interested in using Rivens but aren't always slotting the most meta/groll stats available for that weapon. This is coming from someone who only owns a Riven if it's worthy as a "collection" Riven as that's the only reason for me to use my Platinum and set my gear apart from other players.

There are very few weapons nowadays where a Riven makes an exceptional difference over not having one. There is so much power creep that has honestly pushed Riven Mods aside in various cases for most players. They're still there and still "good", but the diminishing returns we have going lately with some bonuses (like Critical Chance or Base Damage) is absolutely out of control. Removing Disposition and letting weapons all hover around a predicted stat range won't break the game, and the absolute worst case scenario is that it further highlights the mechanical oversights that DE has been neglecting for years now.

Edited February 8 by Voltage

[Merkranire]

Did someone put out a video about Rivens or something?

edit: Hm, looking through the topics it may just be me when faced with coincidence

Edited February 8 by Merkranire

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

28 minutes ago, Voltage said:

My point is that popularity influences disposition, but innate weapon mechanics are what influence player choice. You could have had Kronen Rivens at .5 dispo the entire time the weapon was out, and I'm sure you would have still had that period of excessive popularity. All Disposition does is punish players who are interested in using Rivens but aren't always slotting the most meta/groll stats available for that weapon. This is coming from someone who only owns a Riven if it's worthy as a "collection" Riven as that's the only reason for me to use my Platinum and set my gear apart from other players.

There are very few weapons nowadays where a Riven makes an exceptional difference over not having one. There is so much power creep that has honestly pushed Riven Mods aside in various cases for most players. They're still there and still "good", but the diminishing returns we have going lately with some bonuses (like Critical Chance or Base Damage) is absolutely out of control. Removing Disposition and letting weapons all hover around a predicted stat range won't break the game, and the absolute worst case scenario is that it further highlights the mechanical oversights that DE has been neglecting for years now.

Oh I see yea I agree. Everyone hated the .5 update and I'd love to see all rivens at least be 1.1. but probably won't happen. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

as someone who never really cared about Rivens for anything other than niche underrated weapons that I happen to like, such as my Prisma Grinlok, I'd be happy to see them scrapped altogether and watch the forums burn as the "Riven mafia" and their salty trader friends howl and scream at the loss of their easy plat. 

ultimately though, Rivens aren't going anywhere because they make DE money, regardless of how much they neglect the disposition system, which at this point I believe is no longer something they are really concerned about: new weapons come out and Rivens for them will be meh at best, but that's all they need for people to consider buying them, meanwhile much older and neglected weapons will continue to benefit from high dispositions, as they should. 

the system works for DE as it currently is, so if it isn't broken to them, why would they fix it?

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I'd be happy to see them scrapped altogether and watch the forums burn as the "Riven mafia" and their salty trader friends howl and scream at the loss of their easy plat. 

Whenever I read comments like these, I just assume it's written out of envy towards those who simply know how to trade. "Easy plat" is any item in the game that you understand pricing and demand for.

It's really interesting that there's a common perspective to look at players into these kinds of items in this manner, but the comments are always written in an obnoxious manner to oppose this labeled crowd of individuals that represent a minority on a spectrum of all kinds of players.

I'm not going to change your mind on how you feel about Riven traders, but the barrier to entry has never been lower, especially with free tools like Alecaframe and Altair. You're free to make this "easy plat" yourself.