What warframes need a rework?

[Lord_Chibi]

2 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

Personally i wouldn't mind to even spare niche frames, for example, melee-oriented ones: Valkyr/Garuda/Atlas, some people just love punching stuff.
But some others (in my humble opinion) can be considered obsolete. Like this ones:
1) Nyx - She was supposed to be CC queen, but look where are we now. All her kit looks either bleak or "ok, but we have better analogues".
2) Chroma - Helminth material. End of story.
3) Inaros - Ok, devs announced a rework for him, he is spared from a trash bin, yet.
4) Gara - On a paper: mighty frame with good survivability and InSaNe damage. In reality: i saw my last Gara, like, a year ago? May be even 2 years. Just pick Khora. Same idea, much better functionality.
5) Banshee - how often do you see her, honestly?
6) Ivara - a joke. Her 2 is insanely niche, 1 and 3 meet the famous "meh, there are much better analogues". Yes, her bow can 1shot 180lvl CHGs with SP modifiers, but, cmon, just take bramma at this point.
7) Nezha - Was ok until Lavos happened. 
8) Styanax - jack of all trades, master of none. Understandably fogotten.
9) Voruna - I have a soft spot for muscle women, but they straight up butchered her with a kit like that. Her 1, 2 and 4 encourage her to be in close quarters, however the impact of 4 isn't really worth jumping at the crowd and without 4 she hasn't have her "charm" of a wild huntress. Not even mentioning crazy mana costs if you dare to go further than 200% ability STR.
10) Kulervo - He is borderline ok, since he is a niche for…heavy attack enjoyers??? Seen any?
11) Kaliban - honestly, a surprise for me. Dude offers armor/shield strip and dmg vulnerability in ONE kit (warframes are usually given 1 of these 2), moreover this can go further beyond with Helminth, but he seems completely forgotten.

Hydroid rework was majestic (now fairly my main) and i think these frames deserve Hydroid treatment.

Garuda and Kullervo?

 

Garuda isn't melee oriented. She has claws but they're entirely optional. Her 4th ability is just as good when used with a shotgun or or assault rifle.

She has infinite energy and a shield that absorbs all damage in front of her.

What about those are melee oriented?

 

Kullervo... Well yeah he's good with melee weapons but His weakness is defense not offense. His third ability makes all damage hit multiple targets, second ability is for overguard, and the fourth... it's a DPS ability used with his 3... 

The only frame with a similar premise to him is Zephyr or marked for death setups.

 

 

Also, Voruna is supposed to be used with Equilibrium, which (as you said) turns all of the enemies killed by her melee abilities into energy.

[Lord_Chibi]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Imo aside from the announced Inaros (who I admit does need it too)?

Loki, Nyx and Ash would be my top 3.

Half of Loki's kit is basically useless (plus more and more things can't be disarmed by his 4 so that only leaves his Invis as a generally useful ability), Nyx barely does anything (no, you cannot convince me Chaos is good CC, it gets worse every time DE makes a CC frame) and Ash needs some major QoL, especially on his 4, a targeting cone, a Mesa-like circle...anything other than slow ass laser pointer marking.

Why Inaros was the priority before any of these three I'll never know, at least Inaros was moderately tanky and had pocket sand...

Tbh Ash isn't that bad, he's just dated because so much of the little passives he has are tied to augments. He can definitely still destroy, even if Kullervo does his job better (I consider it to be pretty balanced since Ash goes invisible and has shields while Kullervo doesn't but has better damage outside except against Ash one-shot finisher builds).

[KitMeHarder]

This is one of the worst takes I've seen in years.

53 minutes ago, PoppyPrince said:

I wanted to write this thread a month ago, so i started to pay double attention which frames people take with me on sorties/relics/archon hunts and etc. [...] so i have a very clear year worth impression in my head about "common" choices.

No, you have an anecdotal (and I'm being generous here) "handful" of experiences. Not to mention your "double attention" was only a month long.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Lavos....fashion and kit-wise. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 46 minutos, Xzorn dijo:

Garuda suffers from a few quirks. Her shield suffers from most. It's slow, doesn't block radial damage and doesn't move vertical.

I make a correction, the garuda shield does block radial attacks, if you are referring to napalm attacks it only protects from the explosion but not from the area of fire it creates upon impact, the same goes for other similar abilities (volt shield, vazarin, frost balloon)

[DrivaMain]

I don't see Atlas, Valkyr, Loki, and Equinox on the list. Are you sure you've done your research OP or are you just throwing random names on the post?

[Xzorn]

41 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I make a correction, the garuda shield does block radial attacks, if you are referring to napalm attacks it only protects from the explosion but not from the area of fire it creates upon impact, the same goes for other similar abilities (volt shield, vazarin, frost balloon)

 

It looks like they finally fixed it. I posted about it quite a lot. Volt's Shield, at least in stationary form does block the radial fire damage from Napalms it just doesn't block the status proc. Garuda seems to work the same now but it wasn't even close before. Her shield was nearly useless against anything but a bombard rocket.

 

Spoiler

 

 

It also looks like they rightfully nerf'd Napalms. Their AoE was previously 14m not 4m and contained 3 portions of damage. The base radial damage, The floor Hazard damage and the heat proc which both would produce. They were my most hated enemy type for years because of how busted they scaled. I learned everything about them.

The secondary hazard damage is why Frost's Snow Globe was useless against them without a decent amount of range with players staying in the center.

[Numerounius]

Looking at my most used list: (since I think that makes it more fair to judge what I think gets a rework over stuff that I rarely use like Mag and Ember)

Inaros, which we know is coming but I have a feeling it won't be enough since the time frame given since Hydroid's rework so I'm expecting it be more of a mid-scale like Chroma and Nyx got and we all know the status of where they're at right now.

Limbo, more of a mid-scale rework/addition of some stuff to make him for friendly towards others and mobility. The rift is an griefing tool that is actively working against you in various gamemodes of Warframe.

Atlas. His speed really slows him down and is probably in contention for worst passive in the game even though its supposed to help his identity of being a slow immobile tank which doesn't work in certain areas of Warframe. He has some areas that he excels in but overall the design doesn't work for the pacing of Warframe.

Oberon, his abilities and stuff is fine on paper but it desperately needs a touchup to modern standards in terms of mobility and damage numbers. An Eidolon scream should not be able to out damage Oberon's heal!

 

Some that I would personally not put on the list to be reworked:

Banshee, all of her abilities are relevant, CC on 3 and 4, armor strip on 1, dmg boost on 2.

Any frame with an exalted melee weapon. It does not make the frame "outdated"! There is still tons of support you can use for it and I will argue has more tools than those without one.

Vauban, this is a tough one to put on here but I don't think he deserves to be reworked for the sake of it.

Nyx and Chroma, some tough choices but I don't think they are ready to be put on the rework block yet. Still have some good abilities even if they've been outclassed.

Edited February 10 by Numerounius

[Skoomaseller]

Caliban should be priority, followed by Inaros, Banshee, Nyx and Loki. 

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Lavos....fashion and kit-wise. 

Don't think he needs a full-on rework, just tweaking how his element infusion works so it feels less clunky to use.

Edited February 10 by Skoomaseller

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Numerounius said:

Nyx and Chroma, some tough choices but I don't think they are ready to be put on the rework block yet. Still have some good abilities even if they've been outclassed.

 

What outclasses Chroma as a brawling weapon master? It's not the first time I've read this. Makes me wonder how players are building him.

Mine is just shy of 100k eHP before Adaptation with 944% Damage, being roughly x5. Could be more if I replaced base damage with Faction mods and such. Slot Nourish so you can use Arcane Deflection and remove Bleeds being his biggest weakness then you have very high HP and Energy regen as sources of recovery.

If something like a Nidus is nice enough to Link Chroma at the start of the mission Vex snap shots around 2200% Armor and 1700% damage.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

So, I personally don't really think any Warframes need reworks. That being said, there are some that if changed, I would probably play them more, and or, I personally think their theme or something about them is cool, and abilities should better reflect that, or that they "deserve" some minor tweaks and buffs. That also being said, not necessarily a good thing, if all Warframes now accommodate my very own specific preferences, since by nature, if the game attempted to do that for all players, many of my current favourites might be changed in ways I do not like or appreciate. Since I am aware and mindful of that, none of below has any strong insistence around it. 

I also think there are differences between big reworks, where abilities, and stats change around, and can be quite different, and the Warframe may not play the same, or have the same strengths or weaknesses, and minor reworks, where small buffs and adjustments to the existing general sense and feel are employed. Even the latter can have some degrees of separation. Compare Hydroid changes to Zephyr changes to the ones the starter frames got, Nyx got, that many seem to forget or look over etc. 

Also none of this is to suggest a Warframe isn't viable, or strong. Again, it might just be the idea that I would selfishly, personally enjoy them more. So less of a suggestion on what Warframe should do... more just a hypothetical. 

Big Rework/Changes. 
Caliban. Is probably my least used generally. To the point I make light fun at him. Even though when I am more serious, I think he is interesting, and I also think he is capable/strong in many settings. I just don't like his gameplay flow. It feels clunky. I wish he could summon more Sentients of different varieties, that could serve different functions. I would rather Warframes like Caliban be slightly OP, after being so neglected/unpopular. Can always nerf a bit later. I would change his spinning move, increase the default speed of many of his abilities, buff his passive. I would do quite a bit more. 

Inaros. I mean he is getting one. I also struggle for serious suggestions, because I just keep thinking of sarcastic joke suggestions, like making all his abilities references to the movie the Mummy, or the Vertigo comic series Sandman, or the Netflix show based on the Vertigo comic book series, or the Metallica song, or the Marvel character or the metaphysical manifestation of memes that surround the character, and double downing on them, to make an extremely impractical and overpowered silly Warframe... 

Small buffs/QOL improvements. 
I think due to the nature, it would be good if every few years, most Warframes were looked at for some possible QOL and minor adjustments, especially the older the Warframe is. Warframes that spring to mind, that deserve it, would be Nyx, Banshee, Valkyr, Volt, Chroma, Loki, Equinox, Nidus, Ash. Though also a lot of Warframes or just the game in general, could do with more options around how certain Warframes interact with others, as far as being able to opt out of buffs etc I picked some Warframes just because of similar reasoning. I love how they are already, but might not use them in teams, because how invasive they can be. (Creatively speaking as well, I could put Loki and Chroma in the other category, just because I think it could be fun reimagining them to todays Warframe setting.)
 

[Misgenesis]

The only one i disagree with is Gara. Cant speak for Kullervo yet.

Gara completely invalidates defence type missions if you know what youre doing.

[Waeleto]

Bait used to be believable

[Monolake]

All the old frames who are objectively badly outdated and have zero reasons to be played need an update.

BTW Banshee is a really good frame, people just cant manage to play her cause of survivability issue and cant bother to mod for it. Ive made a tanky Banshee and soloing lvls 1000+ on her, her skills are outstanding. A lot of 'unpopular' frame problems is just player problem - people cba to learn how to play and mod a frame.

On the other hand you have frames with completely outdated non-viable skills or even self-harming skills like Ember 2 completely evaporating all your energy - this nonsense has to be removed.

Edited February 10 by Monolake

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

7 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

i called "weak" only a few of them, my much more constant question was: where are they? Famous Gara always gets furious protection in any thread, however gets 0 attention in game. I wanted to write this thread a month ago, so i started to pay double attention which frames people take with me on sorties/relics/archon hunts and etc. Moreover i was always curious about my teams' choices because i don't mind being a teamplayer and complimenting my comrades' abilities, so i have a very clear year worth impression in my head about "common" choices.

I wouldn't really use personal sightings to use as a fact that they're bad.

https://www.warframe.com/2023stats

Luk at this, the frames you think are weak are definitely used quite a bit, maybe you were unlucky to see one of them, there's some frames are better for endurance than quick missions and some that are better when playing solo than with a squad.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

While Inaros is slated to get a rework, I dread what they plan to do to him.

My greatest fear is that they gut his kit and play style to appease the people who don't play him, at the expense of those who do, like me.

This is what I personally hope for... but I don't expect... I expect to just not be playing much Warframe in the future.

 

[Aldain]

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Yea, Ash is one I acknowledge but I've also seen him perform well despite the clunky 4th.
When they did that rework I made a suggestion. I think it was simple as allowing Ability Range to increase the mark distance from the reticle. Having to "Mesa" target your marks isn't something they should be going for. I felt a more "cone of sight" interaction would feel much better.

I'd be more than down for the cone of sight thing, it's just...way too clunky to be practical these days as it currently is.

I think the only other thing I'd do is maybe give a slight boost to the number of Shuriken his 1 throws? Maybe scale the number with a few Strength thresholds up to like 5-6? Even with the Augment on throwing only 2 at a time makes it kind of worse than Nyx for armor strip unless you spam it, and while it is a Slash proc it just feels kind of dated being only 2 projectiles at best.

[PoppyPrince]

8 часов назад, (XBOX)Graysmog сказал:

Well, are we talking full overhauls or just mechanical tweaks? I'll assume both;

Limbo - Probably the only Warframe left that has a really anti-team style kit that I would hope DE actually meaningfully changes. The Rift mechanically is just an inconsistent mess and his whole style of play just causes way too many issues.

Atlas - While he's my favorite personally, his kit is really lackluster and only shines due to a bunch of odd ability and melee interactions DE is eventually going to change. I would hope the rest of his kit is brought up to par before they nerf stat sticks, just throwing Bulwark in the trash would be a great start.

Caliban - Outside of how painfully bad Razor Gyre is, I think Caliban just suffers from a lot of really annoying and clunky mechanics a few QoL tweaks could fix really easily. Make him buff other DR sources in general instead of his diet Adaptation as a quick example, I want to like him.

Loki - I think Loki is just really, really old and could use a full rework to bring him up to par with other Warframes. Outside of Disarm, his kit is just super outdated and could use some more TLC to bring him up to snuff.

 

Limbo - i would make dota2-like option: "ignore ally's help", toggling it on your frames will just ignore Limbo's abilities. Straight and simple.
Loki is ok, he was just made for lazy gameplay and lazy people. His invisibility is perfect, he isn't as slow and restricted in actions as Ivara and doesn't have miserable duration multiplier like Ash. His 1+3 are perfect for skipping 90% of detection area in data rooms on spy missions. 
Atlas - as i mentioned, i didn't touch frames which fill in some niche even if they are clunky. But if possible, yes, i would upgrade him too.

[PoppyPrince]

7 минут назад, Aldain сказал:

I'd be more than down for the cone of sight thing, it's just...way too clunky to be practical these days as it currently is.

I think the only other thing I'd do is maybe give a slight boost to the number of Shuriken his 1 throws? Maybe scale the number with a few Strength thresholds up to like 5-6? Even with the Augment on throwing only 2 at a time makes it kind of worse than Nyx for armor strip unless you spam it, and while it is a Slash proc it just feels kind of dated being only 2 projectiles at best.

it's ok to have ~1 useless ability if other work well. (but ye, ult rework sounds tasty)

 

6 часов назад, DrivaMain сказал:

I don't see Atlas, Valkyr, Loki, and Equinox on the list. Are you sure you've done your research OP or are you just throwing random names on the post?

Now i am sure that people didn't even trouble themselves to read properly what i have written. My fault tho, should have written less if i expetected better information digestion.
Now, about your question: i said literally in the beginning of my post, that i don't touch frames which at least fill in specific niches because other frames in my list can always be replaced by something else, while frames like Atlas and Valkyr at least will entertain those who are completely into melee, because there are only few choices.

[Aldain]

26 minutes ago, PoppyPrince said:

Loki is ok, he was just made for lazy gameplay and lazy people. His invisibility is perfect, he isn't as slow and restricted in actions as Ivara and doesn't have miserable duration multiplier like Ash. His 1+3 are perfect for skipping 90% of detection area in data rooms on spy missions. 

Just saying, this is half of the reason why Loki has gone unattended for so long and is part of why so many people aren't agreeing with your list, the other half are the now hilariously silent "Loki Master Race" players who just said everyone was using him wrong. Half to 3/4ths of his kit are staggeringly useless in modern Warframe (and were just as useless even 3 years ago), there's nothing that Loki does that other frames don't do better.

Most frames have more than one thing that they bring to the table, even freaking Excalibur has an AoE stun that is reliable if basic as it works on everything that isn't outright immune to abilities, Loki's Radial Disarm (an ability that costs 100 base energy for the record) gets worse every time DE introduces something that can't be disarmed by comparision.

Excusing Loki's poor state as a player side issue is not the best take imo.

Edited February 10 by Aldain

[PoppyPrince]

5 минут назад, Aldain сказал:

Just saying, this is half of the reason why Loki has gone unattended for so long and is part of why so many people aren't agreeing with your list, the other half are the now hilariously silent "Loki Master Race" players who just said everyone was using him wrong. Half to 3/4ths of his kit are staggeringly useless in modern Warframe (and were just as useless even 3 years ago), there's nothing that Loki does that other frames don't do better.

Most frames have more than one thing that they bring to the table, even freaking Excalibur has an AoE stun that is reliable if basic as it works on everything that isn't outright immune to abilities, Loki's Radial Disarm (an ability that costs 100 base energy for the record) gets worse every time DE introduces something that can't be disarmed by comparision.

Excusing Loki's poor state as a player side issue is not the best take imo.

Pay your attention. I didn't say Loki is one of the coolest frames or something like that. I said he has his niche. He is good when you have to do spy mission and you want to do it with your brain turned off. Or any other mission when you are just not in the mood for interacting with enemies.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, PoppyPrince said:

Pay your attention. I didn't say Loki is one of the coolest frames or something like that. I said he has his niche. He is good when you have to do spy mission and you want to do it with your brain turned off. Or any other mission when you are just not in the mood for interacting with enemies.

I think you might want to double check what I wrote, because I'm arguing that being good in a niche doesn't excuse being useless outside of that niche, which is why it's a bad excuse.

Ivara also occupies that niche but plenty more people play Ivara over Loki because she ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING OTHER THAN BE INVISIBLE.

Or is it hard to understand that some people don't want Loki to be the, as you put it, "Lazy Spy Frame" and literally nothing else?

Edited February 10 by Aldain

[PoppyPrince]

22 минуты назад, Aldain сказал:

I think you might want to double check what I wrote, because I'm arguing that being good in a niche doesn't excuse being useless outside of that niche, which is why it's a bad excuse.

Ivara also occupies that niche but plenty more people play Ivara over Loki because she ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING OTHER THAN BE INVISIBLE.

Or is it hard to understand that some people don't want Loki to be the, as you put it, "Lazy Spy Frame" and literally nothing else?

Loki Prime is not so far lower than Ivara Prime in popularity stat. Does it mean people enjoy playing them both almost equally or does that mean they are equally bad?
While basic Loki is leagues above basic Ivara (however i think it has to do with how annoying is basic Ivara to get, so we will ignore that)

About niches: it is not a complete excuse. It means a warframe can be placed in a second que when it comes to rework.
What i mean by that: Gara, while being strong, is also boring because her main kit is aoe dmg and survivability. And we already have enough frames who do that.
While Atlas and Valkyr can offer nothing else except "haha, i punch people", but it can entertain people with…specific tastes.

Edited February 10 by PoppyPrince

[(PSN)robotwars7]

a lot of frames need looking at. most of the ones mentioned in the OP are ones I would've put anyway, however..

11 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

My main point is: how often do you even see these frames?

just because frames aren't popular, doesn't always mean they are fundamentally flawed. there are over 50 frames to choose from now, and many people have one or two "mains" that they use most of the time. some frames are bound to appear less than others. there are other reasons people may not use them, that have nothing to do with their kit.

- playstyle: Kullervo is great in melee, but not everybody likes melee, some people prefer guns and the joy of mowing down mobs with high-powered ranged weaponry. to that end, those people won't pick Kullervo, now will they? they'll take a frame that buffs their guns, such as Harrow or Rhino.

- visuals: you may think it petty, but some players won't go into a mission unless they are looking exactly the way they want to, and if a frame is ugly, it isn't getting used, unless there's a skin they like for it. even if a frame's kit is strong, they will be put off from using them until they look right as well.

- mission type: some people will prefer to take a frame that suits the type of mission they are currently doing, so you probably won't see squishier frames in survivals,  because people want to ensure they won't be too squishy if they're fighting mobs constantly. you won't see many Ivaras or Lokis outside of a spy mission, but in a spy mission, you more than likely will.

personally I try to give all frames a fair shake in every game mode, but not everyone does that, and that's OK. the important thing is to use what you like and have fun doing it. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Lavos....fashion and kit-wise.