The moving of archon shards from Chipper to some where else, feels out of character.

[KiteForest_2035]

On 2024-03-06 at 1:43 PM, Aerikx said:

Kahl however, was a one and done 15-20 min mission.

Once again assuming it's 50k or even 60k, I would have to farm for 2 days.

The is exactly what I wanted to express

On 2024-03-06 at 1:17 PM, Hexerin said:

Sounds like you need to improve your own gameplay methodology if you're having trouble with standing gains

I guess I don't have to worry about it, since I've already maxed out my reputation with Cavia to 132,000/132,000 before 2024

Edited March 7 by KiteForest_2035

[GinjaNinjaa]

Well, in terms of efficiency, this is probably not a good change. As of right now, Kahl missions takes about 20 mins per week to get the shard we want, but if it's moved to the Cavia syndicate, and lets say a shard takes about 50k-100k syndicate points, and to farm that syndicate points, takes about 3 days, depends on your mastery rank and daily cap. 

In short, originally a 20 mins per week thing, now changes to a week long mission (again, depends on your daily cap). So, from a efficiency perspective, i have my doubts for now. 

Edited March 6 by GinjaNinjaa

[PollexMessier]

I disagree with all the people saying removing them was good.

If you hate kahl missions fine, but that doesn't meant they have to be rendered entirely obsolite. Nothing's stopping DE from just, adding another source of arcon shards and keeping them in Kahls store instead of "moving" them.

There's so many weeklies in this game at this point that you can't reasonably keep up with them all. You already have to pick and choose what you care about enough to do. If some people wanna burn themselves out trying to farm it all, or just like kahl missions enough to spend time on them over something else, that should be their choice to make. Why do they "need" to be moved? They don't.

[KIREEK]

Maybe this was stated before and i forgot., but what NPC specifically will get the shard reward once the change happens?

What will be the currency used to buy the shard? I ask this mainly because i have 1000 points from doing khal missions and i don't know if i should spend it all on mods to sell later or if i should hold onto them.

[Berzerkules]

50 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I disagree with all the people saying removing them was good.

If you hate kahl missions fine, but that doesn't meant they have to be rendered entirely obsolite. Nothing's stopping DE from just, adding another source of arcon shards and keeping them in Kahls store instead of "moving" them.

There's so many weeklies in this game at this point that you can't reasonably keep up with them all. You already have to pick and choose what you care about enough to do. If some people wanna burn themselves out trying to farm it all, or just like kahl missions enough to spend time on them over something else, that should be their choice to make. Why do they "need" to be moved? They don't.

I was always of the opinion that Khal should have never had shards to begin with. Locking arguably some of the best warframe enhancements behind 100% non frame missions seems entirely back asswards imo. I was livid, I still to this day have never completed a single Khal mission and I never will. I started one, alt+f4 and didn't log in for quite some time. That's the only syndicate beside conclave that I haven't maxed. I just can't bring myself to play it. 

All that being said, I dislike when DE invalidates players time. Some people like Khal, some people farmed tf out it it and it sucks that they have a weekly shard removed from their routine. On one hand I feel DE did players dirty by removing it and I'm not pleased by that but on the other I'll gladly have an alterative. 

I just wish shards were never locked behind Khal at all and that there were more reliable ways to acquire them in a timely manner. 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

I don't do Sorties or Incursions anymore and haven't for at least 6 months so I like that Kahl missions broke up the monotony that is playing with warframes and our arsenal.

Having to hop hop back into the orbiter after every 5 minute missions is something I'm no longer interested in.

Edited March 6 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[-ShadowRadiance-]

On 2024-02-24 at 5:32 PM, Waeleto said:

HATE kahl mission, doing them every week for the shard feels like a chore and unlike other warframe weeklies this one isn't fun it's A W F U L

Stopped doing them IMMEDIATLY as i hit max rank. 

Id rather loose out on shards then doing those horrible missions.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

All that being said, I dislike when DE invalidates players time. Some people like Khal, some people farmed tf out it it and it sucks that they have a weekly shard removed from their routine. On one hand I feel DE did players dirty by removing it and I'm not pleased by that but on the other I'll gladly have an alterative. 

They can buy archon mods, hold onto them for a while, and then sell them to other players for plat. 
 

2 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

There's so many weeklies in this game at this point that you can't reasonably keep up with them all. You already have to pick and choose what you care about enough to do.

Right, but archon shards are still the new hotness. They’re increasingly more valuable with the shard fusion system and with the upcoming ability to combine them to form tauforged shards.  Shards are going to stay valuable and relevant indefinitely because DE keeps adding new frames.  Such a valuable reward shouldn’t be locked behind non-frame content. I’m overjoyed that DE is addressing this. 
 

If Kahl had non-endgame relevant loot for his weekly I don’t think people would have complained as much about his awful chore missions.  If it wasn’t clear, I don’t think it’s fair to compare doing a Kahl mission for a shard to running the weekly Clem or ayatan mission for a useless specter or a chunk of endo. 
 

 

[Aerikx]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

If Kahl had non-endgame relevant loot for his weekly I don’t think people would have complained as much about his awful chore missions.

A symptom of expansion.

At that point in time, Kahl was an Endgame activity. He still relatively is. He is the point blank entry level endgame activity. 

And for many players he is their sole source of Archon Shards as Netracells are not an option for them.

Far too many people on these forums forget that the bulk of the community doesn't play Steel Path nor have an MR in the 20s. 

This is why many updates DE releases come across as "easy" or entryway. 

So DE risks alienating a vast majority of the community by moving Kahl's shard. 

For those who dislike Kahl. That's just 1 shard behind him.

Netracells (while not a guarantee) are rather generous with shards.

That said....

Like I've said many times in many other threads.

If the shard were to be replaced with items like: FULLY BUILT Warframe & Weapon Exilus Adapters, Arcane Adapters (Frame, Primary, Secondary), Galvanized mods, Requiem Mods (Yes. Buy them outright no more RNG cracking), and etc. I'd be ok with it as making those items easier to acquire will dramatically help players gear up for the endgame.

[Berzerkules]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

They can buy archon mods, hold onto them for a while, and then sell them to other players for plat. 

That's an option but they go for like 30p each, add 100p if you rank them. That's not much if you sell R0 and if you sell R10 you're just converting endo to plat. You can already do that with primed mods and make more because you can sell when they are out of rotation and the price is higher. If khal is only an archon mod farm the price is probably going to tank. 

If you have already banked a bunch of stock sell archon mads but I wouldn't run Khal missions for 30p. I'd find a more enjoyable farm if making plat was my goal. 

[Aerikx]

Archon Mods are also super niche. Barely useable is many builds. 

Like. They straight up need to rework the mods IMPO but that's a topic for another day.

Edited March 6 by Aerikx

[Waeleto]

8 hours ago, -ShadowRadiance- said:

Stopped doing them IMMEDIATLY as i hit max rank. 

Id rather loose out on shards then doing those horrible missions.

I have been doing it E V E R Y week and it's miserable, felt like an ACTUAL chore

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, Aerikx said:

A symptom of expansion.

At that point in time, Kahl was an Endgame activity. He still relatively is. He is the point blank entry level endgame activity. 

And for many players he is their sole source of Archon Shards as Netracells are not an option for them.

Far too many people on these forums forget that the bulk of the community doesn't play Steel Path nor have an MR in the 20s. 

This is why many updates DE releases come across as "easy" or entryway. 

So DE risks alienating a vast majority of the community by moving Kahl's shard. 

For those who dislike Kahl. That's just 1 shard behind him.

Netracells (while not a guarantee) are rather generous with shards.

That said....

Like I've said many times in many other threads.

If the shard were to be replaced with items like: FULLY BUILT Warframe & Weapon Exilus Adapters, Arcane Adapters (Frame, Primary, Secondary), Galvanized mods, Requiem Mods (Yes. Buy them outright no more RNG cracking), and etc. I'd be ok with it as making those items easier to acquire will dramatically help players gear up for the endgame.

I don’t think Kahl is worthy of good rewards. It’s miserable, crap content. It’s fine for it to have the niche archon mods, a frame, a few weapons, the ship, and a few cosmetics. That’s honestly a whole lot more than it deserves. It doesn’t need to be endlessly grindable because it’s just not varied or good enough to sustain that. 
 

There are already numerous paths of progression for newer players to gain power. Shards should be elsewhere and Kahl should be forgotten once a player clears out his shop. It’s a good change and will likely go a long way towards staving off burnout.  Even if the Cavia costs are sky high, at least it’s frame content, and there are often quick and rewarding bounties available, not to mention the ability to amass tons of voca.

[Jarriaga]

I'm not happy about trading a 20-minute mission for 2-days worth of standing grind assuming the shards will be no less than 60K points.

[Aerikx]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I don’t think Kahl is worthy of good rewards. It’s miserable, crap content. It’s fine for it to have the niche archon mods, a frame, a few weapons, the ship, and a few cosmetics. That’s honestly a whole lot more than it deserves. It doesn’t need to be endlessly grindable because it’s just not varied or good enough to sustain that. 
 

There are already numerous paths of progression for newer players to gain power. Shards should be elsewhere and Kahl should be forgotten once a player clears out his shop. It’s a good change and will likely go a long way towards staving off burnout.  Even if the Cavia costs are sky high, at least it’s frame content, and there are often quick and rewarding bounties available, not to mention the ability to amass tons of voca.

Well no offense Sunder but you have been against Kahl content since Day 1 and you openly refused even back then to ever accept it so your line in the sand is drawn. 

However, putting your own bias aside you need look at the structure of progression and accept facts as facts.

Kahl was and still is post endgame progression. Therefore it needs to have rewards that shift players into the Endgame. End of Story. 

Absolutely forcing players to grind MR so they can have a higher standing cap so they can have access to an item they used to have access weekly, is very bad design.

If you ask around in game, you'll find that the veterans lean more towards disliking Kahl while new, casual, and advanced players like Kahl. 

(Veterans can also do Archon Hunts, Netracells, and etc but New, Casual, and Advanced Players cannot do...it balances out to a degree.)

Additionally, while the more vocal voices on these forums (Such as Yourself) hate Kahl. The vast majority don't mind Kahl and actually enjoy the "Breath of Fresh Air" Kahl provides.

I myself like Kahl because he reminds me of just how powerful Warframes/Tenno are and is a nice change of pace. 

Until Duviri came out there was no breath of fresh air mode beyond Kahl.

Now I play Kahl once a week and Duviri is my main: "I need a break from Warframe in my Warframe." Mode 

But like how Duviri offers good rewards in rotation. So too should Kahl. 

Kahl is post endgame, whether you like it or not. Therefore Kahl needs to be respected and treated as such. 

So once again. 

Remove the shard? Replace it with 3 item slots that change every week:

1 Forma slot that rotates between: Umbra Forma, Aura Forma, Stance Forms

1 Exilus Slot that rotates between Warframe and Weapon

1 Arcane Adapter that rotates between Primary, Secondary, and once unlocked: Melee

This keeps Kahl functional as progression, helps lower geared players "Catch Up" and gear up. Much like Acrithis does.

I want to see Galvanized Mods moved to Chipper too. Because right now only Arbitrations offer them and that mode is a chore for many who aren't veteran players. (And the drop rate on Vitus Essence sucks. I find myself farming galvanized mods for my friends as they find Arbitrations to be extremely boring and unfun in every way. And no, they don't die in it. They just do not like the mode and are glad Warframe didn't move in that direction.)

And forcing players into Steel Path content (Which DE is keeping optional much like Rivens) isn't ever going to be on the table. 

[Hexerin]

6 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Kahl is post endgame, whether you like it or not.

This just shows you have a severe lack (or complete absence) of understanding of game design. Kahl is not in the game's gameplay loop, and never has been due to what it inherently is. It's a completely disconnected thing, not even considerable as a content island. This ultimately renders almost all of your arguments in your post irrelevant, because they are based on a foundation that doesn't even exist in the first place.

[sunderthefirmament]

18 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Kahl is post endgame, whether you like it or not. Therefore Kahl needs to be respected and treated as such. 

 

18 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

(Veterans can also do Archon Hunts, Netracells, and etc but New, Casual, and Advanced Players cannot do...it balances out to a degree.)

 

...?

 

So is Kahl "post endgame" or is he accessible to "New, Casual" players?  Or is he somehow both?  Neither?  Anyone claiming that people who are incapable of hunting an archon or clearing a Netracell are now going to be without their weekly shard are spouting nonsense.  To even get to Kahl, you need to have a Necramech and a Railjack.  All content associated with those two vehicles is at or above late starchart level.  Sure, a player can purchase both of those with plat.  Players can also purchase galvanized mods and steel path arcanes with plat (from other players), allowing them to kick outside their coverage and do archon hunts/Netracells without excessive difficulty.  Also nothing was stopping people from getting carried through archon hunts.  If you've ever played one public, you've likely seen this happen.  I will admit that I've literally never played a Netracell on public due to the complaints about randos that I see here and on the subreddit, so I can't speak to that.

 

There's nothing sacred about Kahl.  He doesn't need to be respected.  He's a largely forgettable masculine stereotype of a character stapled to the same three missions on repeat until the end of time because the reward behind him was just that good.

 

Until DE announces that they're adding something new to Chipper's stock shop, your "end of story" and "facts are facts" comments don't quite seem to grasp what DE has done.  They've announced that they're removing the shard from Chipper/Kahl.  As far as we know it, that is where the story ends.

[Aerikx]

55 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

This just shows you have a severe lack (or complete absence) of understanding of game design. Kahl is not in the game's gameplay loop, and never has been due to what it inherently is.

Nope. This just shows how out of touch you are. And actually I do understand game design. Much better than you going from your own comment.

Kahl was a factor in Endgame Content up until the Whispers in the Walls Update dropped. (We can argue Duviri became endgame before Whispers, but only Steel Path Circuit really served as Endgame Content and as DE's official stance is that Steel Path is not mandatory progression, it's disqualified)

Upon Whispers launch which would be considered an "Expansion" (you can go ahead and read up on what that is), Kahl shifted from the current Endgame Content loop to a Late Game content loop.

As of the time of this posting he provides Archon Shards and Mods, so he indeed still part of the content loop. 

(This thread is addressing his removal from such a loop.)

Kahl is effectively the entry barrier to what is now the current form of Endgame Content.

42 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

To even get to Kahl, you need to have a Necramech and a Railjack.  All content associated with those two vehicles is at or above late starchart level.

These my dear @Hexerin were formerly Endgame Content. That is as Sunder put it. Now Late Game content. Like Eidolons, Orbs, and so on on were. 

However, DE did not remove the key reward from those activities and shift them to content that many cannot participate in. 

44 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

So is Kahl "post endgame" or is he accessible to "New, Casual" players?  Or is he somehow both?  Neither?  Anyone claiming that people who are incapable of hunting an archon or clearing a Netracell are now going to be without their weekly shard are spouting nonsense.

I'll try to clear this up. 

Before the Whispers Update/Expansion, Kahl was Endgame Content ie: Post The New War. However, Kahl by DE's own words was meant to be a entry level for New, Casual, and Advanced level players (who are often times those who struggled and still struggle with Archons Hunts).

The selfsame players who players such as you & Hexerin typically despise and refuse to "Carry" through such content. (Yet your section of the community often advocate to remove accessible content that would empower the new, casual, and advancing players to a state where you wouldn't need to "Carry" them. Funny how that works huh?) 

Back to Necramechs and Railjacks...

Yes they can be bought with plat. And DE has effectively altered the game to just hand players both of them now. 

However, powering up such vehicles is a heavy commitment in content that effectively got wholesale phased out of the game. 

Railjack in particular is a content island that very, very, very few dabble in. That's on DE though. 

Launching it locked behind clans was a mistake. Not having Command Mode at launch was another. Removing content that players enjoyed and used to advance in Railjack was the most cardinal of mistakes. 

Railjack was a huge failure, and DE kind of ensured it failed.

Necramechs were better implemented and well done. However, until recently, acquisition was extremely difficult for the average player. As Necramechs in the Isolation Vaults were a harsh "Fist of God" to the face for many. And aren't the usual Warframe, shoot it till it dies enemy.

Archons Hunts & Netracells are a Steel Path-Lite experience. That many can only complete in public squads (typically meaning a Veterans is carrying the team while they try not to die). 

If a carry is required then a proper progression path is needed.

Moving the shard to the Cavia? It isn't progression so much as a way to herd players into the newer content. 

But due to the bad design of a daily standing cap being tied to MR...

I brief tangent...

If you need an idea of how bad the standing aspect of Warframe is just look at the Fortuna changes. Do you honestly think DE changed Fortuna because they just felt like it? Or was such a change made because an alarming portion of the community has not completed/advanced far enough in Fortuna's content loop? Think about that. Now think about how OLD Fortuna is. That should give you an idea of where the bulk of players are in terms of standing acquisition, gain, and progression.

IE: The Fortuna grind was too great. So DE has to ease it up. I can only imagine that they are evaluating Deimos and The Zariman as we perpetually argue on these forums.

Back to the main discussion...

This creates a huge problem for the non-veteran playerbase. Disrupting their weekly content loop as now. And this is a fact for MANY players. Unless that shard is in the Cavia for like 5, 10, or 15k Standing, It will be an ordeal for many. Possibly not even acquirable as not everyone (myself included) logs in everyday and caps standing. Even if they farm Voca, the turn in doesn't supercede the standing cap. So there are no loopholes. 

And many players aren't going to level MR Fodder to rank up just so they can get a normal shard in 1 day, once a week.

I also have a hunch if the shard was 5/10/15k folks here would have an issue with it being so cheap. I can see it in the tea leaves.

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Until DE announces that they're adding something new to Chipper's stock shop, your "end of story" and "facts are facts" comments don't quite seem to grasp what DE has done.  They've announced that they're removing the shard from Chipper/Kahl.  As far as we know it, that is where the story ends.

You're not entirely wrong. It wouldn't and won't be the last time DE has created a content island devoid of life and screwed up the progression it designed. 

But as the new dev team has been a hot streak, I like to point out such things in the unlikely event they see these discussions. 

But Kahl not being Post Game content? That is a fact. Everything that requires New War completion is part of the post game content. Hence the, That's a fact. 

You may wish to deny it as much I wish to deny the existence of the Disney Star Wars sequels but they do exist. And Kahl is Post Game content. Now if DE removed Kahl like it did with Trials. Well...

That'd be a different story.

[TheSteelMushroom]

I'm sort of keen on this change tbh. Like it's going to be less time consumering overall if I can just pick up vocas from Loid overtime to get a shard on a weekly basis. Though the Cavia token system isn't great so maybe it'll be a bit unpleasant.

Kahl missions were OK but they weren't that engaging honestly with just a scavenger hunt with a relatively slower character and minor shoot down boss encounters.  But they can be fairly time consuming so I'd rather not have the shards behind them for tauforge fusion.

Though, people can still play them if they enjoy them or really care about them just for its sake and not the reward. So, that’s up to them.

Edited March 8 by TheSteelMushroom

[ValtrPrime]

In the funniest scene, a group of people point fingers at a task that can be played up to three times a week. Duty says playing the task is a waste of your time.
Then moving the core reward to a group reputation that only"Brushes" when annihilation + "Six minutes/activation wells/double whisper" is said to lighten the load.
Maximum daily reputation = Leve* 500 + 16,000
I'm assuming a player has only 15 for 23,500.
If this piece is tens of thousands to exchange. That means you'll have to work at least 2 days to get the credit, which adds to the burden. If there is no suitable task this time will have to delay even longer.
The mask factory infiltration mission, the most reviled of the garrison's reputation, was the fastest and most rewarding of KARRH's five missions
A task that requires no introductory configuration at all, just proficiency, and yet a group of people deny its meaning in the first place.

Edited March 7 by ValtrPrime

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, ValtrPrime said:

The mask factory infiltration mission, the most reviled of the garrison's reputation, was the fastest and most rewarding of KARRH's five missions
A task that requires no introductory configuration at all, just proficiency, and yet a group of people deny its meaning in the first place.

Kahl may be shorter, but it’s also what you’re doing during that time that’s important- not just how long the activity takes. Let me try an analogy here.  I would rather go for a pleasant stroll through a nature preserve for 30-45 minutes than walk over broken glass barefoot for 3-4 seconds. I would rather spend more time on frame content to unlock the same reward than less time with something as shallow as Kahl. 
 

8 hours ago, Aerikx said:

The selfsame players who players such as you & Hexerin typically despise and refuse to "Carry" through such content. (Yet your section of the community often advocate to remove accessible content that would empower the new, casual, and advancing players to a state where you wouldn't need to "Carry" them. Funny how that works huh?)

You may have memorized my opinion on Kahl content, but you don’t know me or how I play. I frequently carry others on archon hunts. And though I don’t play netracells on public, I do play them with a clanmate who would have trouble clearing them without me.  Don’t lump me in with any section of the community besides the ones you have evidence for.

[KiteForest_2035]

5 hours ago, ValtrPrime said:

Some people say they have saved enough and don't need to work anymore. What about the other players, the future new blood players?

Do not take my words out of context. I am also against the relocation. It's just that some people think I'm saying this because there's an issue with my way of playing. I also believe that even if there is sufficient stock, it is not a long-term solution.

还有记得在引用之前关闭翻译软件，不然你引用的就是中文

[KiteForest_2035]

2 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Kahl may be shorter, but it’s also what you’re doing during that time that’s important- not just how long the activity takes. Let me try an analogy here.  I would rather go for a pleasant stroll through a nature preserve for 30-45 minutes than walk over broken glass barefoot for 3-4 seconds. I would rather spend more time on frame content to unlock the same reward than less time with something as shallow as Kahl. 

Your perception of it being painful is your own opinion. There are many people, including myself, who believe that this task can serve as a diversion while also providing us with useful rewards. Alternatively, some people may feel that the longer task is the real challenge, while Kahl is more like a leisurely stroll. Let's not be so arrogant about it.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, Aerikx said:

This creates a huge problem for the non-veteran playerbase. Disrupting their weekly content loop as now. And this is a fact for MANY players. Unless that shard is in the Cavia for like 5, 10, or 15k Standing, It will be an ordeal for many. Possibly not even acquirable as not everyone (myself included) logs in everyday and caps standing. Even if they farm Voca, the turn in doesn't supercede the standing cap. So there are no loopholes. 

Except that it does the opposite. Kahl is in reality disrupting the weekly content loop, since it is completely void of progress and advancement outside of the shard. Even if a newer player needs to farm Cavia standing for the new shard, it still lets them knock out several other weekly things aswell in the process. Kahl doesnt count as a mission, he doesnt add to kills or anything else tied to nightwave for instance. 

While farming Cavia standing you'll unlock weapons, standing ranks, get arcanes, mods, get needed materials, excess Voca and so on. You can also do this in a group to speed up and guarantee you get max Voca per bounty. We also dont know if it will be standing based to buy the Shard or if it might be a simple trade in for a Voca, some Lab materials or whatever else they might think of. For all we know it might be tied to a single new bounty, or a new currency given upon bounty completion that you need X of. 

Although I think the shard will cost something like 15-20k standing. Which means slightly longer time spent on it for players that cant do the two highest bounty tiers, unless they instead run what they can handle and chase down the Voca aswell. It would also mean it can be done in a single day for most players, 15k would make sure every single player can achieve it in a single day since the rank 0 standing cap is 16k.

edit: Though in reality MR8 standing potential could be the baseline aswell, so 20k would not be unreasonable as a cost, since that is the MR required to even use the shards, since you need the Helminth segments to infuse them into frames to start with. So at 20k the players that can make use of shards will be able to farm enough standing in a day at roughly the same pace as a Kahl weekly mission takes.

Edited March 7 by SneakyErvin

[ValtrPrime]

3小时前 , SneakyErvin 说:

Though in reality MR8 standing potential could be the baseline aswell, so 20k would not be unreasonable as a cost, since that is the MR required to even use the shards, since you need the Helminth segments to infuse them into frames to start with. So at 20k the players that can make use of shards will be able to farm enough standing in a day at roughly the same pace as a Kahl weekly mission takes.

Let's hope that number doesn't exceed expectations...