I love the new rapier skin but the problem is rapiers aren't in a good place

[ArmoredDragoness]

While we can all agree that fencing with Destreza prime is fun it's just not effective in late game without alot of investment Into this weapon class that can't easily proc slash outside the combo's that being said I love the new free skin but at least make rapiers worth using in steel path without the need to strip armor to any degree

[Aldain]

Still has a better stance than something like 2h Nikanas at least.

But yeah, Rapiers are kind of in that "Oh right they exist" zone at the moment.

[Waeleto]

To be fair how many melee weapons are in a good place now ? how many melee stances are people actually satisfied with ? we need a huge melee update that focuses on stances

[Raikh]

I don't blame it on a lack of Slash. Slash is naturally stronger than the other physical damage types but I'm also having  great success with a number of non-slash focussed weapons aswell. Destreza Prime is also most definitely capable of just running over SP w/o the need for armor stripping.

Rapiers are just very single target oriented being about thrusting w/o standing out in that department. So other weapons get to blend horders of enemies while being just as good at killing singular enemies. So often you just end up killing slower with Rapiers even if their performance numerically isn't lackluster.

Really liked them when they initially released but since they do not feel as practical as a good number of other weapon types just by their nature I do not have much motivation to use them these days.

[Unimira]

I remember having a decent heavy attack build on my Destreza Prime, think it even procs slash. Haven't had much use for it after ranged weapons got ridiculous (Arcanes and Incarnons) though.

What I'm saying is that Rapiers are far from the worst, basic moveset even halfway good (which can't be said for most).

Edited March 3 by Unimira
typos

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

To be fair how many melee weapons are in a good place now ? how many melee stances are people actually satisfied with ? we need a huge melee update that focuses on stances

I agree that there are some really bad stances but there are also some good ones that might get totally scuffed if DE reworks all stances. 

I'm reluctant to push for DE to do a rework on stances across the board. 

 

[Waeleto]

3 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I agree that there are some really bad stances but there are also some good ones that might get totally scuffed if DE reworks all stances. 

I'm reluctant to push for DE to do a rework on stances across the board. 

 

Oh yeah definitely, the stances for war fans, claws and tonfas in particular would be DEMOLISHED in an update

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I agree that there are some really bad stances but there are also some good ones that might get totally scuffed if DE reworks all stances. 

I'm reluctant to push for DE to do a rework on stances across the board. 

 

Across the board? Not really needed.

But a solid 60-70% of all the stances in my reckoning could use a tune up, with 10% of those stances needing to be reworked from scratch due to being terribly unwieldy (see Wise Razor and the Ghoulsaw Stance as examples).

...The sad thing is that Wise Razor actually was fine during the short period before melee 2.0 dropped iirc, with the basic combo not having a random ass dead stop and the slowest swings even with speed buffs.

[Skoomaseller]

7 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I agree that there are some really bad stances but there are also some good ones that might get totally scuffed if DE reworks all stances. 

I'm reluctant to push for DE to do a rework on stances across the board. 

 

all they really need to do is buff some damage modifiers in certain combos and get rid of lifted entirely, if they're not gonna do anything beyond "enemy float away" for it. 

if they REALLY wanna go all in reworking the whole system though... taking a page out of nier: automata's playbook would be pretty fantastic... (inhales copium)

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, ArmoredDragoness said:

While we can all agree that fencing with Destreza prime is fun it's just not effective in late game without alot of investment Into this weapon class that can't easily proc slash outside the combo's that being said I love the new free skin but at least make rapiers worth using in steel path without the need to strip armor to any degree

They're in better shape than the  majority of weapons without slash focus, since they do have some they have a couple of forced slashes on their standard combos, and forced slash on their heavies and finishers.  It's a little ironic to grumble about this now, when recent updates have made them better at slash via their heavies and ground finishers.  And Melee Arcanes and the puncture buff have made a slash focus a little less important.

FWIW I've been taking advantage of these changes and using Endura again a ton.

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

Oh yeah definitely, the stances for war fans, claws and tonfas in particular would be DEMOLISHED in an update

Id rather get more stances, especially for weapon classes that have only a single stance. 

Another thing about stances id that some people really enjoy certain stances while other totally hate them. I 

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Across the board? Not really needed.

But a solid 60-70% of all the stances in my reckoning could use a tune up, with 10% of those stances needing to be reworked from scratch due to being terribly unwieldy (see Wise Razor and the Ghoulsaw Stance as examples).

...The sad thing is that Wise Razor actually was fine during the short period before melee 2.0 dropped iirc, with the basic combo not having a random ass dead stop and the slowest swings even with speed buffs.

 The thing with stances is that some people enjoy them the way they are. I completely hate all polearm stances and wouldn't mind getting polearm stances reworked for my own selfish reasons but if that meant others would lose the enjoyment they got for their favorite or most used weapons I'd gladly pass. 

It would be hard to come to a consensus of what stances need a rework since it really comes down to personal preference.  

[Raikh]

23 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

 The thing with stances is that some people enjoy them the way they are. I completely hate all polearm stances and wouldn't mind getting polearm stances reworked for my own selfish reasons but if that meant others would lose the enjoyment they got for their favorite or most used weapons I'd gladly pass. 

It would be hard to come to a consensus of what stances need a rework since it really comes down to personal preference.  

Its not only about the feel of the stances, some stances are just really weak numerically. I'm not sure how accurate the Wiki numbers are, but just from personal experience they are atleast going in the right direction. And some stances are producing absolutely pitiful damage. Wise Razor is a good example of this. Sure its often being criticized for its feel but its also fairly weak.
Same for the Heavy Scythe Stance Galeforce Dawn, the throughput is just pretty abysmal. You could easily go and double the numbers across the board on it.

And I think that sometines goes hand in hand with the feel of the stances. Stances that feel more weighty need to pack a punch but many of them just don't pack the punch so it starts feeling bad to use.

Otherwise, for matters of taste, there should be different stances for that. Some have good options outside of the numbers, on the other hand Polearm Stances for instance are very samey and could use something different entirely, but thats a larger undertaking that just changing a few numbers on existing stances.

Edited March 3 by Raikh

[Aldain]

36 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

It would be hard to come to a consensus of what stances need a rework since it really comes down to personal preference.  

Really the biggest issue I see is forward combos that stop the player dead for no reason.

Like Decisive Judgment for example on Nikanas where it's just repeating horizontal swings but for some reason the player stops moving on the second swing. That's not even talking about the sheer awkwardness that is the Nikana heavy attack which has forced movement before the swing, meaning you have to space it or whiff entirely (assuming the wonky swing angle doesn't whiff anyway).

There's a huge number of stances that have that problem, Tempo Royale on Heavy Blades, the aforementioned Wise Razor, Crushing Ruin on Hammers...if nothing else the forward combos should at least serve that purpose rather than being insanely clunky.

[Greysmog]

57 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Id rather get more stances, especially for weapon classes that have only a single stance. 

Another thing about stances id that some people really enjoy certain stances while other totally hate them. I 

 The thing with stances is that some people enjoy them the way they are. I completely hate all polearm stances and wouldn't mind getting polearm stances reworked for my own selfish reasons but if that meant others would lose the enjoyment they got for their favorite or most used weapons I'd gladly pass. 

It would be hard to come to a consensus of what stances need a rework since it really comes down to personal preference.  

It's not like we're expecting DE to just totally remove all the animation work put into stances, and outside of a few weapon types I can't think of any moves I would want to directly replace.

It's moreso the lack of things like forced slash, some stances stopping your momentum, lower or almost no multipliers, missing moves, slow attack chains and so on. If nothing else changes, DE really needs to look at how easy it is to make your Warframe stop moving since it's in almost every single stance. 

I wouldn't say updating older stances so they have a more universal and cohesive damage model is too much to ask, they're basically doing that to Finishers as we speak. I feel like the main difference between Stances should mostly just be which movesets you like best, if DE does want to add diversity, keep it simple by just boosting one thing like slide attacks with Four Riders.

Edited March 3 by Greysmog

[Berzerkules]

22 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Its not only about the feel of the stances, some stances are just really weak numerically. I'm not sure how accurate the Wiki numbers are, but just from personal experience they are atleast going in the right direction. And some stances are producing absolutely pitiful damage. Wise Razor is a good example of this. Sure its often being criticized for its feel but its also fairly weak.
Same for the Heavy Scythe Stance Galeforce Dawn, the throughput is just pretty abysmal. You could easily go and double the numbers across the board on it.

My opinion on these 2 stances/weapon classes is that DE should have never made 2h nikana and heavy scythes at all. They are weapon classes with minimal options (4 x 2h nikana and 1 x heavy scythe) and we already have nikana and scythes with multiple stances, they should have just been put into those classes. If Heavy scythe and 2h nikana could use regular nikana and scythe stances they would be better weapons with access to more stances than the single option they currently have. 

Honestly I'm just afraid of DE touching all stances, IF they decide that things like sovereign outcast and swirling tiger are the damage outliers and knock stuff like that down to be on par with lesser stances we would have screwed ourselves. 

If I main anything it's melee and there are plenty of stances that I don't particularly enjoy, but there are quite a few weapons that preform well with stances I do like and I never feel like my options are limited in the melee department. 

Like look at the recent proposed changes to eclipse. Players have been asking for a toggle option for idk how long and DE decides to finally add it but they change the ability entirely. That's not what players wanted and there was enough feed back that they reconsidered and reverted some proposed changes. If they do a full stance rework at the request of the community there will be casualties but there won't be a mass community outcry for changes to the individual stances that found themselves on the chopping block.  

[Kaggelos]

Regarding tuning up stances, i hope you guys mean in terms of visuals, animations, movement and variety of combos (as in identical attacks to different combos), or numbers?

Personally i dont really care about the numbers, only care about the former.

Also rapiers are, in my experience, pretty good, and with amazing heavy attacks.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Another stance For them would be nice, Vulpine Mask works well enough IMO but variety is always nice to have.

I like the new skin though, major "what if the Corpus saw a Cup-Hilt Rapier?" vibe, though functionally it's more like a cattle prod lol. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

Across the board? Not really needed.

But a solid 60-70% of all the stances in my reckoning could use a tune up, with 10% of those stances needing to be reworked from scratch due to being terribly unwieldy (see Wise Razor and the Ghoulsaw Stance as examples).

...The sad thing is that Wise Razor actually was fine during the short period before melee 2.0 dropped iirc, with the basic combo not having a random ass dead stop and the slowest swings even with speed buffs.

I think removing lifted status, or making it exclusive to heavy slam and some warframe abilities only, would solve a lot of the stance issues. Personally, I like how the combos can be mixed together, creating new combos and completely changing the dynamics of the attacks. I guess this was DE's intent but I've not heard of many people doing this. 

[L3512]

Rapiers are fine, Vulpine Mask has more forced slash procs than it has a right to and they all have good multipliers. They are very good at single target damage but not quite AOE as some other melees, that is all.

[PR1D3]

As others pointed out this is kind of a stance problem. A lot of melee’s damage is tied to the free multipliers and forced procs of stances. A few classes could use a look over. Cause if you think Rapiers aren’t in a good place you should see the Whip stances.

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cause if you think Rapiers aren’t in a good place you should see the Whip stances.

10 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cause if you think Rapiers aren’t in a good place you should see the Whip stances.

10 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cause if you think Rapiers aren’t in a good place you should see the Whip stances.

10 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cause if you think Rapiers aren’t in a good place you should see the Whip stances.

11 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Cause if you think Rapiers aren’t in a good place you should see the Whip stances.

Quoting this to quote this.

[Xzorn]

Even before the stance changes I didn't use Rapiers because they were too front focused. Sweeping attacks are just superior.

What they did to so many stances annoys me so much. I miss having choices between stances.

[ominumi]

Forward thrust with short range just doesn't work in warframe in this day and age. Dynasty Warrior series already showcase how bad certain movesets have become over the years. Not to mention how specific moveset outperform all other movesets.