Whats wrong with Tenno´s? Or am I the a***ole?

[Sir_Basti]

Sorry for this header but I really don´t get it.

So straight to my topic: When running Relic-Exterminate or Capture, especially on "higher" LVL missions like Neo and Axi, Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad. Some like to breath and moan into their microphones. IDK this seems to be more of a thing since the console players joined in.

I play a Thermal Sunder Titania myself but it must be really hard to wait for some Tenno for the enemies to convert, it happens more and more that Tenno don´t give a frick about that, ending in not enough reactants at the end of Lith or Meso missions.

Now my question: Is it just me (maybe I slept not enough or so), or is this a thing that really gets bigger?

[Graavarg]

It is not something new, rather it is a trend that has been ongoing for quite some years.

Initially a lot of Warframe was about playing "together". It was a co-op game, clans had meaning, helping your fellow Tenno was both "a thing" and "the right thing". And many got into Warframe through "playing with friends", because friends wanted more to join their clans and missions. This was something you could call the "Space Ninjas lift together"-phase.

Over time Warframe has morphed into a more single player power fantasy drop efficiency-driven game. It is a lot more about achieving "your" power, showing off "your power" and getting what "you" want or need. This reflects in how the game is played, and it might actually even reflect what kind of gamers now like to play Warframe.

As a "gaming enterprise" the transition to "your power fantasy" has been successful, but on a philosophical scale it might be considered back-sliding. This is why you now can have three players standing on extraction and letting the clock tick down, instead of going back a few meters to rez a lower-MR player. It is why some players abort missions immediately if there are "too many" low-MR players onboard. You hardly ever see higher-MRs giving out advice, or even acting as silent mentors in missions by allowing the new guys more playing space (and helping them as needed). An organized push to extort DE by threatening to down-rank Warframe on Steam would have been a "does not compute"-thing back in the day, so far out it would have been incomprehensible. But a few years back that was what happened, due to a changed playerbase (that honestly seemed to believe they were in the right to demand what they felt they personally needed and wanted).

So I would say that your conclusion is spot on, and yes, this is a thing and it has been getting bigger. But it is more of a trend that has been going on for quite awhile.

- - -

Soulframe's "to be or not to be" will, for me personally, come down to if DE can manage to restore that helpful, friendly atmosphere that initially made Warframe stand out among all the other online games. Back then, it really felt as if Tenno did lift together. I do hope DE still have that in them, to stand up to the selfish, shallow horde and not give in to all these egocentric "me first", "I have a right to get what I want", "it is all about me (and my feelings"), regardless of how much money they are willing to pay to feel "special". Which, incidentally, would fit nicely into Soulframe's overall thematic. 

[Sir_Basti]

You found the right words. I just play for 6 years now, almost, and since then I have a meme in mind that I like as kind of Warframe-philosophie.

Sure there are other ways to protect low MR and push them a little to do the kills but thats anyway more a thing in Clan-squad-missions. I mean when I just want to quick open some relics, I rush the missions and dont care who gets the kills. Its me fine, is another faster, fine too. But yes, at the end one should wait for all to get their reactants. And with a Volt its no problem to run back real quick to buff the slower players to get to extraction, or where the reactants are, before the timer runs out.

In the end, when someone kills too fast, no one gets a drop and there is where the "single-player-power-fantasy" makes no sense for the game. Or when in an open Survival everyone runs around, splitting the enemies and the loot over the whole map instead of staying in one room.
The time before around the "lift-together"-update was really different. And to about answering questions or helping. I agree with you there but also it seems for me that players dont dare to ask, or maybe even think about it. Some days before I got an player that asks me about my Titania-build and I was happy to explain it to him. Another day I saw an player with an Hydroid, rushing through the map like nothing I have seen a Hydroid doing before. I had to ask how it worked and for a link to his build.

 

Jup we just can hope it will be better in Soulframe. I am really excited to play it.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

Same mood as tenno in netracells that for the love of the VOID cannot grasp the concept of killing mobs outside the circle only does not progress the mission. 

Most likely the same tenno too...

 

[Aevire]

I think the community in general has rested on its laurels of being "the nice and helpful game community," but any sort of positive community like that only maintains itself with active effort. Calling out behavior like that - which in the elevators case particularly annoys me because it makes the mission longer for everyone, the slower people now have to wait to call the elevator down - starts with you, and me, and OP. I could blame deleting raids for this, because raids were one of the big coop modes, but honestly it's not really that. A lot of it came from the transition from group Eidolons to solo Eidolons.

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

As a "gaming enterprise" the transition to "your power fantasy" has been successful, but on a philosophical scale it might be considered back-sliding. This is why you now can have three players standing on extraction and letting the clock tick down, instead of going back a few meters to rez a lower-MR player. It is why some players abort missions immediately if there are "too many" low-MR players onboard. You hardly ever see higher-MRs giving out advice, or even acting as silent mentors in missions by allowing the new guys more playing space (and helping them as needed). An organized push to extort DE by threatening to down-rank Warframe on Steam would have been a "does not compute"-thing back in the day, so far out it would have been incomprehensible. But a few years back that was what happened, due to a changed playerbase (that honestly seemed to believe they were in the right to demand what they felt they personally needed and wanted).

So I would say that your conclusion is spot on, and yes, this is a thing and it has been getting bigger. But it is more of a trend that has been going on for quite awhile.

Big agree with you on this one. In general, I'd say a large part of it was that when warframes were less universally good, and generally each member of a squad was needed to be able to do everything, you felt the Trinity blessing you, or the Volt giving you speed, or whatever, and so it mechanically behooved you to help them, as it benefited you. But especially in relic exterminates and captures, and other missions like invasions where it's a pub and people can do the entire thing themself, it's sort of like why it's "rude to suck at Warcraft", where everyone's always stressing about time investment and efficiency and doing everything as quickly as possible. Part of this is that the grind is just so much larger than it used to be, also.

I think as community members it behooves us to actively try and promote being chill and normal and kind and helpful in squads, but obviously the people with the most influence in the space tend to be content creators, and not calling anyone out here but they generally don't seem to spend any time advocating for that or reminding people to do that. It's a race to the bottom, I suppose.

Not sure what [DE] can really do about it besides maybe adding some more relaxed coop content to the game, like how LoR was a bunch of laid back puzzles. It's up to us.

[Xzorn]

In many ways Relic missions represent the worst aspects of Warframe.

• They embody mission spam.
• If you miss the elevator. It's your fault.
• If you don't get 10/10 like everyone else. It's your fault.
• If you get stuck on an object and take 30 extra seconds. Your fault.
• If you're actually trying to play the mission. You're fault.
• If you do Relics solo and it takes longer to get rewarded. You're fault.

None of this is actually the player's fault. That's how it's designed and why it's so terrible.
There was once a time players just played in the missions instead of playing mission completes. Much better days.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

So straight to my topic: When running Relic-Exterminate or Capture, especially on "higher" LVL missions like Neo and Axi, Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad. Some like to breath and moan into their microphones. IDK this seems to be more of a thing since the console players joined in.

It rarely happens for me. Maybe it's because I've turned my micro off years ago (writing is hard, so people may be more polite in written words). Few months of plays with teams and I rarely see any toxicity in fissures. If someone (or I) had to wait then we waited.

In any other missions it rarely happens as well. I had once Necracells mission where I was far from objective/extraction. I was running (not pun intended) Gauss prime and maxed focus sling range/speed. 3 people have waiting and I've said "I'm running" then another guy jokingly said "like what all Guasses do". We laughed.

 

I bet it happens but some factors (like ignoring objectives) would rise toxicity level. I would be angry if someone would pick flowers instead of doing main objectives. If you were first timer (or just not experienced) I would be ok to wait and give advices.

3 hours ago, Graavarg said:

 

Over time Warframe has morphed into a more single player power fantasy drop efficiency-driven game. It is a lot more about achieving "your" power, showing off "your power" and getting what "you" want or need. This reflects in how the game is played, and it might actually even reflect what kind of gamers now like to play Warframe.

The main problem is efficiency part. Sure it's less co-dependent (which is good imho) but from introduction of open worlds they are pushing so much grind then people have to get somehow efficient or they won't get toys.

3 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

The time before around the "lift-together"-update was really different. And to about answering questions or helping. I agree with you there but also it seems for me that players dont dare to ask, or maybe even think about it. Some days before I got an player that asks me about my Titania-build and I was happy to explain it to him. Another day I saw an player with an Hydroid, rushing through the map like nothing I have seen a Hydroid doing before. I had to ask how it worked and for a link to his build.

If you don't ask then don't expect anything. At least some people are willing to help if you ask. That's in human nature. Sure some are toxic, in bad mood etc but if you treat other like another human being then they may do the same.

When I go with random group I rarely expect any conversation. I just go with the goal in mind. I can for example go to extract thinking it's ok, even you have some problems. I just don't know and I don't care UNLESS you tell me.

 

[TheSteelMushroom]

The issue I find with void fissures and people have complained about this as well. Is that the system is based on this light/orb appearing with a few corrupted and then corrupting enemies rather then spawning a ton of corrupted enemies. It doesn’t do it rapidly and it's in a small aoe with like a delay to the transformation.

It can especially be problematic if the map is short where not enough enemies spawn or is too large where enemies are too spread out. Also if there are less spawns like with a console host. Plus is very contradictory to the objective of getting kills for like extermination or defense to be done effectively.

Sure players can wait for the corruption but it's flawed and doesn't work with the system and I hope DE will eventually change that.

[Aruquae]

5 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

Sorry for this header but I really don´t get it.

So straight to my topic: When running Relic-Exterminate or Capture, especially on "higher" LVL missions like Neo and Axi, Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad. Some like to breath and moan into their microphones. IDK this seems to be more of a thing since the console players joined in.

I play a Thermal Sunder Titania myself but it must be really hard to wait for some Tenno for the enemies to convert, it happens more and more that Tenno don´t give a frick about that, ending in not enough reactants at the end of Lith or Meso missions.

Now my question: Is it just me (maybe I slept not enough or so), or is this a thing that really gets bigger?

It’s always been there, just happens to be bubbling up because of netracell 

 

[kyori]

Steve said: "Warframe is a multi-player experience!"

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

5 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad

Even though it's not the subject of the thread. I do wish DE would remove elevators from the game. They serve no real purpose other than to break the pace of the mission and are merely a holdover from back when Warframe was much slower paced than it is now.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

A thermal sunder titania complaining about others....hilarious.

And I listen to music except for disruption. You don't need a mic for a 3 min mission.

[MutoManiac]

I give them 30 secs to get to the elevator. After that I press the button. Some people just like doing what they do, so they may never even get to the elevator. And people say there is no strategy in WF, blah, blah. Well waiting for them to turn yellow/corrupted is the strategy in capture missions and fissures in general. People just want the most kills and there’s no discipline, so you sometimes don’t succeed. When I wait for them to get corrupted, there’s always someone behind me who blows them up before they turn yellow.

Edited March 8 by MutoManiac

[(PSN)robotwars7]

6 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

Sorry for this header but I really don´t get it.

So straight to my topic: When running Relic-Exterminate or Capture, especially on "higher" LVL missions like Neo and Axi, Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad. Some like to breath and moan into their microphones. IDK this seems to be more of a thing since the console players joined in.

I play a Thermal Sunder Titania myself but it must be really hard to wait for some Tenno for the enemies to convert, it happens more and more that Tenno don´t give a frick about that, ending in not enough reactants at the end of Lith or Meso missions.

Now my question: Is it just me (maybe I slept not enough or so), or is this a thing that really gets bigger?

Speeder's gonna speed regardless of platform/level. Seen plenty PC users not waiting around either so don't blame us lol.

The core of the issue is being forced to wait for corruption, instead of ALL enemies just dropping reactant; then it wouldnt be possible to kill thing TOO fast and ruin the game, and speedrunnefs Don't have to change. Everybody wins.

Its a simple enough change, but logical and simple changes are exactly the ones DE hates the most.

[UnstarPrime]

9 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

Some like to breath and moan into their microphones.

When I got my PS5, it took me quite a while to realize that unlike the PS4, the controller has a built-in microphone that defaults to being on.  And if you turn it off, next time you turn on the console it will be on again unless you dig into the system's settings to change microphones to default to off.

So I am absolutely not surprised that a ton of players are making all manner of mouth sounds, because I'm sure plenty of them have no idea they're broadcasting themselves.

It's honestly a wild decision on the part of the PS5 designers to default the mic to being on without any explicit messaging; it's a genuine security and safety issue for both adults and children that don't realize 3rd parties can hear everything they're saying.

[UnstarPrime]

10 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

I play a Thermal Sunder Titania myself but it must be really hard to wait for some Tenno for the enemies to convert, it happens more and more that Tenno don´t give a frick about that, ending in not enough reactants at the end of Lith or Meso missions.

Here's the big thing: the game never, ever tells you not to kill unconverted enemies in Fissure missions*.  And because most players aren't reading forums or looking up guides, they're not going to be aware of the community-discovered way to min-max the Fissure system.

We really need to stop blaming individual players for not knowing the optimal way to play a game mode that the game's developers never teach them how to play.  Is it any surprise that uninformed players would kill as fast as possible, just like they do in every other mission? 

Honestly, it's silly that you can fail your objective by effectively killing lots of dudes in the game where the whole point is to kill lots of dudes.  The blame for these inconveniences needs to be aimed squarely at the developers.

 

*and let's be honest, often there are plenty of unconverted enemies in Fissure missions that NEVER convert regardless of how long you wait

[Aerikx]

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

It is not something new, rather it is a trend that has been ongoing for quite some years.

Initially a lot of Warframe was about playing "together". It was a co-op game, clans had meaning, helping your fellow Tenno was both "a thing" and "the right thing". And many got into Warframe through "playing with friends", because friends wanted more to join their clans and missions. This was something you could call the "Space Ninjas lift together"-phase.

Over time Warframe has morphed into a more single player power fantasy drop efficiency-driven game. It is a lot more about achieving "your" power, showing off "your power" and getting what "you" want or need. This reflects in how the game is played, and it might actually even reflect what kind of gamers now like to play Warframe.

As a "gaming enterprise" the transition to "your power fantasy" has been successful, but on a philosophical scale it might be considered back-sliding. This is why you now can have three players standing on extraction and letting the clock tick down, instead of going back a few meters to rez a lower-MR player. It is why some players abort missions immediately if there are "too many" low-MR players onboard.

This. Nail on the head.

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

You hardly ever see higher-MRs giving out advice, or even acting as silent mentors in missions by allowing the new guys more playing space (and helping them as needed).

We are a dying breed. And it's frustrating. As I teach and try to mentor as much as I can spare the time.

Always rewarding and heart warming when I see Tenno return, stand on their own, or send me messages of: "Everything you taught me came in handy.", "Thank you so much. I was able to: ____!", "I did ___. So much fun! I never would have got here without you! Thanks man!"

But it feels like battling an unending tide because...

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

An organized push to extort DE by threatening to down-rank Warframe on Steam would have been a "does not compute"-thing back in the day, so far out it would have been incomprehensible. But a few years back that was what happened, due to a changed playerbase (that honestly seemed to believe they were in the right to demand what they felt they personally needed and wanted).

There is no fighting that. And the struggle some face as they try to catch up gets harder and harder...

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Soulframe's "to be or not to be" will, for me personally, come down to if DE can manage to restore that helpful, friendly atmosphere that initially made Warframe stand out among all the other online games. Back then, it really felt as if Tenno did lift together. I do hope DE still have that in them, to stand up to the selfish, shallow horde and not give in to all these egocentric "me first", "I have a right to get what I want", "it is all about me (and my feelings"), regardless of how much money they are willing to pay to feel "special". Which, incidentally, would fit nicely into Soulframe's overall thematic.

Don't hold your breath. 

With Soulframe having that Dark Souls/Elden Ring/Duviri aesthetic/feel to it. It'll attract that type of community. 😮‍💨

If you've ever played those games...you know what I'm talking about...

Odds are it'll be very toxic. Especially since it's a significantly slower paced game. 

I fear for what Soulframe may become.

[Graavarg]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

If you don't ask then don't expect anything. At least some people are willing to help if you ask.

No. Come on.

You help squad mates that need help. Period. That's what Tenno do. We lift together.

Forcing them to beg for help is being a certified a-hole. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

It's really simple:

The proportion of people is still the same. There's still the same proportional amount of players who are anti-social, bad at the game, or just generally not nice to play with.

With the increase in the player pool we have to play with, though, there are numerically more of them so it's more likely you'll run into them. With Consoles adding on a huge amount of players overall, and all of those players having their microphones on by default... You get a lot of the weird ones. Especially when voice comms are not logged and able to be moderated like text comms.

It's the price we have to pay for Warframe becoming larger, more inclusive, and consistently competing with the other big games out there for player base.

[Graavarg]

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The proportion of people is still the same. There's still the same proportional amount of players who are anti-social, bad at the game, or just generally not nice to play with.

With the increase in the player pool we have to play with, though, there are numerically more of them so it's more likely you'll run into them.

I don't agree. This is a something that started long before the consoles joined (actually before Warframe even became available on some of them).

Also mathematically speaking you are wrong, if it is the same proportion overall then that would also be the proportion you encounter. No matter what the numerical values are.

I also don't agree due to personal experience, I've encountered a lot of sub-MR20 console players during the last months, and generally speaking they are a pretty nice bunch. Going all in for "advancing", jumping into missions that are way over their heads, trying their very best, marking drops for other players, rezzing their pets when they go down. Most of all they remind me of the good old (PC) days. 🙂

Edited March 8 by Graavarg

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, Sir_Basti said:

Sorry for this header but I really don´t get it.

So straight to my topic: When running Relic-Exterminate or Capture, especially on "higher" LVL missions like Neo and Axi, Tenno seem less and less able to, for example, wait at elevators for the squad. Some like to breath and moan into their microphones. IDK this seems to be more of a thing since the console players joined in.

I play a Thermal Sunder Titania myself but it must be really hard to wait for some Tenno for the enemies to convert, it happens more and more that Tenno don´t give a frick about that, ending in not enough reactants at the end of Lith or Meso missions.

Now my question: Is it just me (maybe I slept not enough or so), or is this a thing that really gets bigger?

Honestly, it's always been like this but originally on a smaller scale. As the game grew, so did the amount of the "rushframe" player base. The game itself hasn't really changed the team play or anything it was famous for. It all comes down to more players = more TYPES of players

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

If you don't ask then don't expect anything. At least some people are willing to help if you ask.

No. Come on.

You help squad mates that need help. Period. That's what Tenno do. We lift together.

Forcing them to beg for help is being a certified a-hole. 

Who said about begging. I just said "ask". I don't go around and ask "do you have a problem?" (like with that jokes). No. I assume that people are competent enough (to play good enough). If they are not competent enough (it's fine) then I assume they are old enough so that they know that world doesn't revolve around them and they ask/look for help.

I love "The boys - no no square" song and text (only part because swearing.. and it may be little nsfw but great song): "we can be friend but I'm not your ...".

[trst]

It's a strange phenomenon that happens in all games to some extent. Some players just love to shoot themselves in the foot and either refuse to learn from the experience or choose to blame others for their own mistakes.

As for the elevator thing that's just players being rude/impatient. Which is part of another thing seen in all games: the types of players who only do what they want to and assume that everyone else will pick up their slack. Which also feeds back into the first point as when a mission fails or takes too long those who're doing nothing to help tend to love to point at everyone else as if they're not at fault themselves.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

Speeder's gonna speed regardless of platform/level. Seen plenty PC users not waiting around either so don't blame us lol.

The core of the issue is being forced to wait for corruption, instead of ALL enemies just dropping reactant; then it wouldnt be possible to kill thing TOO fast and ruin the game, and speedrunnefs Don't have to change. Everybody wins.

Its a simple enough change, but logical and simple changes are exactly the ones DE hates the most.

It's actually because it's called a void fissure.....you're going to a regular faction and a tear in fabric space/time whatever has opened up. 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

Here's the big thing: the game never, ever tells you not to kill unconverted enemies in Fissure missions*.  And because most players aren't reading forums or looking up guides, they're not going to be aware of the community-discovered way to min-max the Fissure system.

We really need to stop blaming individual players for not knowing the optimal way to play a game mode that the game's developers never teach them how to play.  Is it any surprise that uninformed players would kill as fast as possible, just like they do in every other mission? 

Honestly, it's silly that you can fail your objective by effectively killing lots of dudes in the game where the whole point is to kill lots of dudes.  The blame for these inconveniences needs to be aimed squarely at the developers.

 

*and let's be honest, often there are plenty of unconverted enemies in Fissure missions that NEVER convert regardless of how long you wait

They were not insulting your intelligence and assuming you would notice a regular enemy clearly flailing their arms and turning glowing yellow along with a big glowing portal nearby.

 

Edit: we can even go a step further and assume the player notices they clicked on a Fissure mission. You have to tab over to it on the starchart menu.....literally none of it is on accident or mistake. 

Edited March 8 by (PSN)Madurai-Prime