Hot Take: DE, please keep the Kid Gloves on Moving Forward?

[Teainshennonprime1989]

6 hours ago, OniDax said:

I know there's a section of players who really like something more challenging, but I don't think the WF player base has every really been into that. They want a chill time feeling powerful and deleting enemies. So I agree.

Agreed de is trash with makeing difficulty it always results in the same bs 🙄 bullet sponges or phases instead of things like 60 eyes boss were he was also a threat if you did not focus but that's the minority of players the try hards the majority is either casual or players looking to just enjoy the game as it is 

[Monolake]

Murmurs were made easier too - and they were already one of the easiest factions. (I guess its for mobile players who are unable to aim?)
Jackal is easily countered by operator void mode, how hard is that?
Not to mention SP is supposed to be a challenge, its not a casual/new player mode, so make only the new-payer part easy, but keep SP part demanding and challenging.

We are already too OP and the game is becoming unnecessary easier on top. Whats the point? We need more endgame content, not all content to be baby-fied to noob level. All the upgrading and min-maxing is pointless when all content is too easy, it becomes boring quickly.

 

[Kaiga]

7 hours ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

Some of us have been playing before the the last update and can remember how Steel Path, Arbitrations, LoR, Eximus rework, Eidolons, Rail jack Grineer units, Fortuna launch enemies, etc were received. 

The next time you call cap on something, at least know the game/community history.  I've been playing since the damn stamina bar was a thing and you had to learn how to copter around the map.  

Honestly your comment is a bit weird ngl, but take your umbrage and indignation elsewhere 

I mean that's cool, I'm old too, but that doesn't mean the jackal in the circuit is any less unengaging or bug risky of a fight. The calls against it were about those things, not it being mechanically difficult or something.

Not sure where you're going with this but to brag about your veteran-ness and not really engage the specifics.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

Wait, so, let me get this straight... People find Jackal in the Circuit... "too difficult"? Enough to literally leave and re-start?

WUT.

Are you serious? No joking?

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

15 hours ago, Aerikx said:

Without any risk in failure, any aspect of Rogue-Lite fades into the shadows.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear. As much as I love this game, it is held together by duct tape and day old chewing gum. The Circuit changes were made not in response to the difficulty but because of the high risk of a bug or host migration completely invalidating an hour or more of your time. I highly doubt you'd find it fair if a random element beyond your control screwed you over instead of it being a skill issue.

As for the rest of your drivel. All I took from it was that you're nothing but an elitist prick. How about you kindly wind your neck in and stop trying to gatekeep how others want to play this game.

Edited March 28 by Ace-Bounty-Hunter

[Loza03]

A lot of people play Warframe for its distinct gameplay and may, separately want a more challenging experience.

 

We're all in this game together, and whilst I fully respect that a good chunk of the playerbase wants their relaxing game, and I also want to just chill and shoot Grineer sometimes, another good chunk of the playerbase would like to be able to push themselves in a way that isn't just 'How about the same mindless AI, but bigger numbers?' sometimes.

[Maqabir]

Are they removing it from Steel Path Circuit too?

I can see how a new player might struggle in the normal circuit, but the Steel Path was specifically created to be a challenge.
Even then the Jackal isn't that hard.

Edited March 28 by Maqabir

[zThulsaDoomz]

8 hours ago, Kaiga said:

I mean that's cool, I'm old too, but that doesn't mean the jackal in the circuit is any less unengaging or bug risky of a fight. The calls against it were about those things, not it being mechanically difficult or something.

Not sure where you're going with this but to brag about your veteran-ness and not really engage the specifics.

I engaged with it because the OP literally brought up handling future updates with kid gloves. 

And then you jumped out the window spouting off people posting without playing the game lol

Did you not notice I never disparaged anyone's skill or preference for difficulty?  I'm guessing not

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

On 2024-03-27 at 3:56 PM, Binket_ said:

DE, do your job. Said this every update because it seems the "lighting engine" is the top priority every time.
Tell the team in charge of that this: "IT WORKS, STOP TOUCHING IT. Go give those resources to the departments that NEED it, like balancing!"
No debate, it's getting annoying where all our fashion and hardware falls apart when somebody decides to touch the lighting engine.
Yet our builds devolve further into laziness and mediocrity. If we can't do fashion and we can't play the game-- we'll go elsewhere!

Hey just wanted to butt in here and say that you're pointing your fingers at the wrong people with that "lighting engine" comment, it's actually the subgroup making soulframe that did the lighting improvements, (also soulframe is coming along nice, I got to play the prelude of it,) However, it seems they haven't implemented the lighting here as well as soulframe uses this engine improvement (which was made separate to the warframe team so again, don't point fingers at the lighting being why your update isn't as good as you like.)

(Also I love how merging my accounts when that was brand new made it so I lost all my previous forum posts here yayyyyy)

Edited March 29 by rahetalius4.2.0CE
added extra bit to end

[ReddyDisco]

The only ones still playing circuit are the ones who like roguelite mode and circuit, makes no sense for them to change it now, these changes aren't gonna get more people to play it who hate the idea of random loadouts in the first place

[OniDax]

21 minutes ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

Hey just wanted to butt in here and say that you're pointing your fingers at the wrong people with that "lighting engine" comment, it's actually the subgroup making soulframe that did the lighting improvements, (also soulframe is coming along nice, I got to play the prelude of it,) However, it seems they haven't implemented the lighting here as well as soulframe uses this engine improvement (which was made separate to the warframe team so again, don't point fingers at the lighting being why your update isn't as good as you like.)

(Also I love how merging my accounts when that was brand new made it so I lost all my previous forum posts here yayyyyy)

There are a number of places on the Orbiter and on the Entrati lab tileset where the lighting just breaks the PBR system entirely. In the Deimos social space, it's completely broken. Lighting on the new fur tech is also broken in the Orbiter, but looks much better on tilesets.

I wish the Animation team cared about improving animations like the lighting team cares about improving lighting. Warframe has had mediocre movement animations since 2012, and they're long past due for an update. Overall, core movement needs to be improved (and Soulframe's "improvements" are laughable). For starters, the Warframes, Operator/Drifter, and enemies need to move more naturally (that's obviously the intent, with every cinematic trailer showing the Tenno and enemies moving like humans). Movement also needs to not just have us sliding around (with a running animation that isn't linked to our actual movement). Right now, we move like an inanimate object sliding around, and when we change direction, we just slide in that direction. More natural movement would have the character actually change direction. DE could keep the same speed and pace of gameplay, but have smoother, more natural movement animations which would make the gameplay much smoother.

Edited March 29 by OniDax

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

Hey just wanted to butt in here and say that you're pointing your fingers at the wrong people with that "lighting engine" comment

I know exactly who and what I'm pointing at.

Whatever they're doing to screw around with Warframe's "Lighting Engine"- be it Soulframe or whatever- is not helping.
They fixed the issue with certain energy colors, but everything looks murky and plays horribly with tons of material textures now.
Most noticeable on certain Voidshell Materials, as they're designed to use pretty much anything.

So most of the time, when I hear "lighting engine" or "fog engine" or whatever else?
I automatically think "Ah, there's the Monkey's Paw curling again" since we can never truly have nice things.
Sure, things can be pretty... but you can do that a myriad of ways. It's the whole reason pixel-art graphics can still be considered "pretty."

 

When things like Gloom or Revenant make the game a joke in every corner of the map? Simply because they throw their arms when their shields go down?
When things like Khora or Vauban decide to bring any form of Crowd Control combo'ing to a halt because they can't be bothered to move?
When people would rather automate the hell out of the game rather than actually engage with it?

Yeah, the "sun shining in the right way" seems kinda less of a priority, y'know?

Especially when I can't really bring myself to enjoy these changes, since I'm often fighting the consequences of poor balance more than I am gazing into the sky.
It doesn't exactly help that a lot of the things that made Warframe's world feel "alive" are kinda just things of the past.
Back when you had a choice to support Alad V or Nef Anyo...
When there was a motion to rebuild a whole relay we lost to a prior event blowing it up...
Where our actions really DID have consequences and it wasn't just Stalker trying to sound edgy.

Nowadays you get... "Oh no, the big bad is doing the comically bad thing with no further implications. Better stop them!"
Since the casual playerbase can't use "Big Bro Revenant" to carry them through everything this ONE time, DE does the 4Kids dub route and just removes all the bite the enemy has.
It just feels like we're constantly going back to square one because people are just expected now to be utterly bored out of their mind if there isn't 20 dozen particle effects going on.

It's almost like the more they keep lowering the skill ceiling, the worse the players get.
When players aren't expected to dodge the enemy attacks, they're just gonna soak them up instead.
When players don't have to work as a team, people are just gonna trample others for their own fun over all else.
When players can just idle in a single spot, they're gonna get lazy.
When the game doesn't need to participate, why do we try to anyway?

 

I don't know how to tell people this, but there is a difference between "accessibility" and "pandering".
The former doesn't compromise a challenge simply by existing.
The latter decides to say "Here, let me do it for you pal! (:" and won't stop doing that.

... so to "end as we began"?
No, I know what I'm pointing fingers at.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

47 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I know exactly who and what I'm pointing at.

Whatever they're doing to screw around with Warframe's "Lighting Engine"- be it Soulframe or whatever- is not helping.
They fixed the issue with certain energy colors, but everything looks murky and plays horribly with tons of material textures now.
Most noticeable on certain Voidshell Materials, as they're designed to use pretty much anything.

So most of the time, when I hear "lighting engine" or "fog engine" or whatever else?
I automatically think "Ah, there's the Monkey's Paw curling again" since we can never truly have nice things.
Sure, things can be pretty... but you can do that a myriad of ways. It's the whole reason pixel-art graphics can still be considered "pretty."

I mean, the soulframe team which is seperate from DE did engine improvements, and the warframe team decided to take those improvements and use them again, I'm not saying they did it in a perfect way, there's flaws with it and such. (Image at the bottom is from Soulframe which uses this new tech better, since it was developed for it)
 

50 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

When things like Gloom or Revenant make the game a joke in every corner of the map? Simply because they throw their arms when their shields go down?
When things like Khora or Vauban decide to bring any form of Crowd Control combo'ing to a halt because they can't be bothered to move?
When people would rather automate the hell out of the game rather than actually engage with it?

Yeah, the "sun shining in the right way" seems kinda less of a priority, y'know?

And you do know there's several subteams within these teams? You can point at the balancing team, but to point at the soulframe art team who did the work, because you're mad that the warframe art team used the new tech from the soulframe team, and didn't do the job of the warframe balancing team
 

52 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Especially when I can't really bring myself to enjoy these changes, since I'm often fighting the consequences of poor balance more than I am gazing into the sky.
It doesn't exactly help that a lot of the things that made Warframe's world feel "alive" are kinda just things of the past.
Back when you had a choice to support Alad V or Nef Anyo...
When there was a motion to rebuild a whole relay we lost to a prior event blowing it up...
Where our actions really DID have consequences and it wasn't just Stalker trying to sound edgy.

and how is this the art team's fault? you can point at the writers and say "I don't like the writing" but point your dislike of the writing towards the writers, don't point at the artists who have little to nothing to do with the writing team, besides bringing the visuals of their words to life.
 

54 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

No, I know what I'm pointing fingers at.

You sure don't seem like it, you seem to just be pointing all over the place, when really you should be having two fingers pointed at the two parts you don't like, which is the balancing team, and the writing team, and I don't think it's fair for you to be pointing at the art team, let alone the art team for a different game with a different team, even if they're under the same company.

[Binket_]

31 minutes ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

You can point at the balancing team, but to point at the soulframe art team who did the work, because you're mad that the warframe art team used the new tech from the soulframe team, and didn't do the job of the warframe balancing team

27 minutes ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

and how is this the art team's fault?

It's a matter of "what the hell ARE they doing?"
From what I can get, they have seperate teams- yes, I'm aware- but those teams need a budget.

If I am to assume the balance team is doing their job to their best ability? That means their poor performance must be due to external factors.
If I am to assume the art team is doing properly? I'd have to assume they're getting the right tools.
I don't care personally for the writing team-- honestly, they're practically myths with how scattered this story feels.

They have a budget and it must be allocated properly. Soulframe is just one aspect of that.
Maybe they cut corners by using the same effects, but the art team should be rigging it properly.
... or at the very least, understand if it's going to break everything in the long run anyway.

This isn't a small indie schtick with 2 people working on it either. They've been doing this for 11 years after all.
Even if some people come and go, the operation continues and it's not for some hobbyist effort.

As far as I'm aware, the art team should probably me working more on things like... y'know...
Weapon Models/Warframe/Enemy/NPC Models, texturing/rigging those models, creating promo art, blah blah blah.
The lighting was fine before. It was the first few times too.

Like I said before, it's great that the ingame sky is shining-- but that doesn't matter when everything else looks like garbage in the process.
At that point, why even bother with the art if everything under the light is gonna look like garbage? 

 

But to blunt? The fact that most of the game is just in this weird state where it feels like it's governed by Quantum Superposition.
The second I look at some other piece of the game- doesn't matter what- suddenly the patterns and rules change on a whim.
Hell, just look at the hit detection on some things. Possibly the biggest form of "Will this work? Who knows!" in the game.

It's to a point where sometimes a player's best bet is to check the Wiki for every individual mechanic JUST to make sure it works.
This is assuming it's up-to-date or even possible to verify on the Wiki editor's part.

 

47 minutes ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

[ Image of Soulframe ]

As someone who ALSO happens to be part of the playtesting for this?
I'm preeeeeetty sure this one is part of the "do not post" section of the DMCA.
Especially given there's parts here they haven't public yet to my knowledge.

So y'know, probably not a good idea? Also why I've been trying to be a bit more vague on that part.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

1 minute ago, Binket_ said:

As someone who ALSO happens to be part of the playtesting for this?
I'm preeeeeetty sure this one is part of the "do not post" section of the DMCA.
Especially given there's parts here they haven't public yet to my knowledge.

So y'know, probably not a good idea? Also why I've been trying to be a bit more vague on that part.

Their NDA states that members are allowed to share screenshots and discussions of soulframe, if you're part of the group that is allowed to play it, then I'm sure you can see that in their guidelines section that says that these are allowed, (they even have a place in the public discord for us prelude people to post these pictures)

We are however, not allowed to show videos or sequences of pictures to fill in for a video (including the forbidding of gifs), according to the NDA I am well in my rights to post that picture.

 

anywho back to the "team" discussion

4 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

If I am to assume the balance team is doing their job to their best ability? That means their poor performance must be due to external factors.
If I am to assume the art team is doing properly? I'd have to assume they're getting the right tools.
I don't care personally for the writing team-- honestly, they're practically myths with how scattered this story feels.

They have a budget and it must be allocated properly. Soulframe is just one aspect of that.
Maybe they cut corners by using the same effects, but the art team should be rigging it properly.
... or at the very least, understand if it's going to break everything in the long run anyway.

You're still pointing at the wrong members then if you're gonna keep saying is the art people fault, even if you claim it's because they're getting better 'funding' proportional or such (which we don't know their internal revenue structure) but it's like, there's the:
Soulframe
 -art team
 -writer team
 -balancing/gameplay team

Warframe
 -art team
 -writer team
 -balancing/gameplay team

these are two different groups that obviously can share some work and engine improvements between eachother since they're using the same engine, but they aren't the same teams, and in the case of the lighting, they could of slapped it in without really doing it as well as SF, and in that case, you can point at the warframe art team, sure, if it's something art related that they messed up, fine, but to point at the warframe art team, for using an engine improvement that was done for the sake of the art team on soulframe, not because of their implementation of it, but no, to point at the fact that somehow that means that it's taking away resources and time from the teams who are meant to do other things? I don't really think you know what you're talking about.

[GrayArchon]

22 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I'm preeeeeetty sure this one is part of the "do not post" section of the DMCA.

The screenshot shared looks identical to a shot of the Soulframe demo shared at TennoCon.

23 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

At that point, why even bother with the art if everything under the light is gonna look like garbage?

So you want the art team to just sit on their hands? The people working on lighting can't move over to work on writing more lore, balancing difficulty, or changing the way community events are structured. They're completely different skill sets.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

Just now, GrayArchon said:

The screenshot shared looks identical to a shot of the Soulframe demo shared at TennoCon.

No, this is my own photo, which they haven't removed from their own publicly accessible soulframe discord that they own, which is seperate from the private one for testers, along with the other photos and discussions along with those photos from other testers in the section for posting pictures of the game in the public discord.

[Monolake]

22 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Wait, so, let me get this straight... People find Jackal in the Circuit... "too difficult"? Enough to literally leave and re-start?

WUT.

Are you serious? No joking?

Some people yeah, and you constantly see 1-2 people dying there and bailing after just 5 rnds, I'd say its not even the majority but yet DE caters more to 'make everything easy!' players.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

34 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Some people yeah, and you constantly see 1-2 people dying there and bailing after just 5 rnds, I'd say its not even the majority but yet DE caters more to 'make everything easy!' players.

I was actually referecing cases like this poster here, from the 1st page:

On 2024-03-28 at 12:01 AM, UnstarPrime said:

Personally, I quit my Circuit runs at the Jackal because it's not fun and a waste of my time.  Nitpicks aside, Defense, Excavation, Extermination, Void Flood, and Survival are all fundamentally enjoyable game modes that have great replay value.

The Jackal, however, has terrible replay value.  Like so many Warframe bosses, far too much of the fight is "wait for it to not be invincible", which is dull and not engaging.  And over the years the Jackal has bugged out so regularly and so frequently that my brain can never tell whether I'm not damaging it because of a bug or because that's just the arbitrary way the poorly-signposted mechanic works.

The fact that I might be poorly prepared for the fight due to bad loadout RNG is just the icing on the cake.

Unless you're specifically running Banshee silence - which does bug Jackal out frome time to time(which is now fixed) - there is really no other way for him to "bug out". And it's literally the most easy and fast circuit mode out of all the game modes present in there. Shoot the leg. Wait for it to hover for like 5 seconds, then slam onto the ground and self-stun. Run up and stab. Do it 2 more times. Done. EASY.

The only reason I'd leave before Jackal, if it's literally 2nd round in the run and all of my gear choices were super meh, so I just leave to reset the gear randomizer to get a better selection, NOT because it's Jackal.

[0_The_F00l]

I personally like some reasonable challenge in my gameplay.

[sinamanthediva]

On 2024-03-28 at 12:11 AM, L3512 said:

Jackal should never have been introduced into the Circuit in the first place.

I agree completely.  It feels like they ran out of ideas and just threw in the Jackal last minute.  But I guess it's better than having to fight The Sergent in The Circuit because we all know how fun and challenging that boss battle is.  I can't say I support making Warframe less of a challenge, especially if it is where a game mode should be a challenge.   I completely support making the game less buggy instead of making it easier to compensate for said bugs.   It's a fine line between making the game more accessible and making the game too easy where the difficulty becomes just an equipment check for the average player.   We can only voice our opinion here with the hopes it helps to improve a game we all enjoy! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[GrayArchon]

8 hours ago, rahetalius4.2.0CE said:

No, this is my own photo, which they haven't removed from their own publicly accessible soulframe discord that they own, which is seperate from the private one for testers, along with the other photos and discussions along with those photos from other testers in the section for posting pictures of the game in the public discord.

Oh I wasn't saying it wasn't your photo. I was just saying that it's not showing anything we (the public who isn't in the Preludes) haven't already seen, so it seems doubtful they would come after you for it.

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

8 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Oh I wasn't saying it wasn't your photo. I was just saying that it's not showing anything we (the public who isn't in the Preludes) haven't already seen, so it seems doubtful they would come after you for it.

Ah, alrighty, well, the existing precedent of them allowing us to post public pictures already in their public discord and discuss it already kinda sets that, but yeah, nothin new shown that hasn't been shown before.

[UnstarPrime]

8 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Unless you're specifically running Banshee silence - which does bug Jackal out frome time to time(which is now fixed) - there is really no other way for him to "bug out".

Pretty bold to propose that there are no bugs with something in Warframe in direct response to someone telling you they've experienced bugs.

[SneakyErvin]

I'm glad they added the saved rewards mechanics, because losing hours due to a bug is not really fun. The nerfs to jackal I just dont get, we have access to so many tools that trivialize him in SP circuit. Wouldnt it be better to keep him "challenging" so people have something to advance towards?