Hot Take: DE, please keep the Kid Gloves on Moving Forward?

[Aerikx]

Despite the bulk of The Dante Unbound update being absolutely amazing. (Seriously! 10/10 update! Wonderful changes)

The Duviri changes were extremely alarming, as it is now officially no longer a "Rogue-Lite" mode, not even in name or spirit.

Without any risk in failure, any aspect of Rogue-Lite fades into the shadows. But what really got me was the unexpected Corrupted Jackal nerf. Especially the: 

Quote

The introduction of the Corrupted Jackal Assassination Circuit mode was designed with a twist to the standard Jackal fight for a bit of a challenging edge. However, players have expressed that the fight can quickly end you and your Squad’s Circuit run due to it being rather difficult to defeat.

Yikes!

DE, despite what you see on these forums, in twitch chat, and Reddit....

Please, stop wasting resources on trying to give the community challenges. If you have to put the kids gloves on after a short time...then well the writing's on the wall. IE: It can't handle them. 

Especially if you're going to neuter the challenges to the point of obsolescence. 

Honestly, I feel like you should just give players their full stack of Revives and the option to Opt-Out of The RNG Loadouts in Duviri at this point. 

Or...

Just Remove Defense from The Circuit. Only offer missions with no fail states.

What's the point in having Rogue-Lite mode of there is no danger, not even the sliver of anything Rogue-Lite? 

Seeing as Deep Archimedia has been DElayed...

You might want to REALLY, REALLY, SERIOUSLY sit down and review it. 

Come together, sit at the table and ask yourselves the following questions:

- Will we need to revert/remove the penalty for failure for [Reason here]?

- Will [Selectable Challenge] manage to defeat the players or mildly stress them out? Ultimately needing to be removed at a later date?

- Will [Mission Type] be too hard to complete in a back to back format for the playerbase?

- Will [Enemy Type] add an increased rate of failure to the game mode? It Yes, should it be banned from the mode?

- Does [Damage Attenuation/No Revives/Cooldowns/No Summons] create a state of pressure upon the player? So much so that we will need to remove it later?

Cause right now...

My gut tells me you'll be nerfing Deep Archimedia for the next couple update cycles if you don't ask these questions and contemplate resolutions. 

Considering you had to remove Duviri's Teeth, Claws, and Stingers; then paralyze it from head to toe, just to be safe, then that should give you food for thought moving forward. 

Just keep the content simple, focus on telling amazing stories, improving mechanics, gameplay loops, and delivering a top notch experience.

Yikes!

[Tiltskillet]

The thing that bothers me about the Jackal patch notes is that it feels to me like it bugging out was the primary issue, not difficulty. 

They did address one aspect of this with Silence  (Albeit in the most unsatisfactory way: by not allowing it to affect Jackal's ability use at all.) but if it still locks up from other causes, the fight is still going to be very frustrating.

[zThulsaDoomz]

This is nothing new.

Every time there's even a hint of enemies being able to do anything besides explode into big numbers,  this community will throw a tantrum.

This is a game meant for the casual Andy, and that's perfectly ok

[Nekomian]

23 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Just Remove Defense from The Circuit. Only offer missions with no fail states.

The issue was primarily not fail states / difficulty (outside of the Jackal changes), but progression stops that were occurring. Every day or two there'd be another post going "host migration ruined my 40 min circuit run" or "I didn't go over with everyone else and had to leave" or "the mission never progressed to the next stage".

Rather than spend 1000s of dev hours trying to isolate every single obscure network race condition bug, and having 1000s of support ticket hours checking session IDs of squad mates for compensation, syncing rewards allows players to not feel like they just lost out on their entire rewards due to a bug or issue and allows their dev team some room to breathe and investigate the major problems (many of which they addressed) that affect most people. I honestly wish they'd apply this to all endless modes, and have the failure state apply some other penalty, because the game has various loss of functionality issues regardless of game mode (usually related to host migration or some very obscure issue with latency or hosts). It also already syncs progress for other open world events and railjack runs (the back to back ones), which is very nice.

There's ways to make players engage with challenging content without making it feel like an "all or nothing" situation, and I think this approach is perfectly fine. Circuit still scales up to level cap, and players can attempt it - they just won't lose an hour worth of their life for doing so, getting barely anything for it if it fails. This doesn't make the content any less challenging, it just lessens the risk and encourages more players to attempt content they wouldn't otherwise (because why continue if there's a possibility to fail?).

[MaxTunnerX]

57 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Despite the bulk of The Dante Unbound update being absolutely amazing. (Seriously! 10/10 update! Wonderful changes)

The Duviri changes were extremely alarming, as it is now officially no longer a "Rogue-Lite" mode, not even in name or spirit.

Without any risk in failure, any aspect of Rogue-Lite fades into the shadows. But what really got me was the unexpected Corrupted Jackal nerf.

Man if what you say is true Im so gonna get back to Warframe. When they said Dante was coming I was like "meh", but if they finally went back to normal warframe and stopped catering to elden ring fans for whatever random reason, Im so hyped. And dont worry, there are plenty of bugs/glitches/migrations to give you the feeling of risking everything. Just play a mission long enough and you will see what happens.

Edited March 27 by MaxTunnerX

[SDGDen]

30 minutes ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

This is nothing new.

Every time there's even a hint of enemies being able to do anything besides explode into big numbers,  this community will throw a tantrum.

This is a game meant for the casual Andy, and that's perfectly ok

i mean, it was by the community's wishes that powercreep got to the point where any frame can do level cap now. so yeah. the game isn't hard. at all. it's piss easy. 

honestly, to me, it's easy to the point of being boring. granted, i used to teach raids in destiny 2 so my standard for difficulty is "carrying 5 newbies through a proper endgame activity". but still, it's (imho) way too easy. 

i hope deep archimedea will provide some challenge, or otherwise 1999. 

[Binket_]

56 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

Please, stop wasting resources on trying to give the community challenges.

Especially if you're going to neuter the challenges to the point of obsolescence.

The only thing of relevance here.

If the lowest performers aren't progressing, it's most likely because they're either too stubborn to actually try or they were never actually challenged once in the game.
Honestly, the biggest "challenge" I've had from the newest Disruption is telling people what the icons are and what conduits are going up.

You can make content that's engaging without "challenge" too, but so far only Disruption has managed that.
It's a great gamemode, but it's not the ONLY gamemode.
When most of my gameplay devolves into pressing the same button with the same tactic with the same outcome? Over and over?

It. Gets. Boring.

DE, do your job. Said this every update because it seems the "lighting engine" is the top priority every time.
Tell the team in charge of that this: "IT WORKS, STOP TOUCHING IT. Go give those resources to the departments that NEED it, like balancing!"
No debate, it's getting annoying where all our fashion and hardware falls apart when somebody decides to touch the lighting engine.
Yet our builds devolve further into laziness and mediocrity. If we can't do fashion and we can't play the game-- we'll go elsewhere!

[Drachnyn]

Jackal was a joke anyway. Operator mode invalidated the entire thing and the constant nullifier waves were annoying at best. IMO nothing of value was lost, it's a pretty mid fight. If it goes by faster then all the better but honestly whatever.

Dont see how it's no longer a roguelite mode. Do you say that because we now get full rewards for every wave cleared? If yes I would like to know which roguelikes you've played in the past because in each one I've played you get all unlocks that you happen across regardless of winning or losing the run.

[UnstarPrime]

Personally, I quit my Circuit runs at the Jackal because it's not fun and a waste of my time.  Nitpicks aside, Defense, Excavation, Extermination, Void Flood, and Survival are all fundamentally enjoyable game modes that have great replay value.

The Jackal, however, has terrible replay value.  Like so many Warframe bosses, far too much of the fight is "wait for it to not be invincible", which is dull and not engaging.  And over the years the Jackal has bugged out so regularly and so frequently that my brain can never tell whether I'm not damaging it because of a bug or because that's just the arbitrary way the poorly-signposted mechanic works.

The fact that I might be poorly prepared for the fight due to bad loadout RNG is just the icing on the cake.

[Yousho]

With the insane scaling, abilities and gulf between optimal damage and durability levels and "lesser" weapons and setups, it's not really possible for them to make difficulty on a "healthy" way. 

That said, I've never struggled with Jackle, nor have I seen a team that has...

[Kaiga]

4 hours ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

Every time there's even a hint of enemies being able to do anything besides explode into big numbers,  this community will throw a tantrum.

That is complete cap.

There were no and still are no calls to nerf the Fragmented One, trials are regularly brought up as wanting to be brought back, and if you actually played the SP circuit, you'd realize the jackal is a boring invuln wait-out with little replay value that's hey, guess what, a run-ending bug risk at level 1000+ instead of actually being hard.

I swear, this forum is full of people who don't actually play, yet come here just to complain about how bad everyone else supposedly is.

Edited March 27 by Kaiga

[OniDax]

5 hours ago, Aerikx said:

Despite the bulk of The Dante Unbound update being absolutely amazing. (Seriously! 10/10 update! Wonderful changes)

The Duviri changes were extremely alarming, as it is now officially no longer a "Rogue-Lite" mode, not even in name or spirit.

Without any risk in failure, any aspect of Rogue-Lite fades into the shadows. But what really got me was the unexpected Corrupted Jackal nerf. Especially the: 

Yikes!

DE, despite what you see on these forums, in twitch chat, and Reddit....

Please, stop wasting resources on trying to give the community challenges. If you have to put the kids gloves on after a short time...then well the writing's on the wall. IE: It can't handle them. 

Especially if you're going to neuter the challenges to the point of obsolescence. 

Honestly, I feel like you should just give players their full stack of Revives and the option to Opt-Out of The RNG Loadouts in Duviri at this point. 

Or...

Just Remove Defense from The Circuit. Only offer missions with no fail states.

What's the point in having Rogue-Lite mode of there is no danger, not even the sliver of anything Rogue-Lite? 

Seeing as Deep Archimedia has been DElayed...

You might want to REALLY, REALLY, SERIOUSLY sit down and review it. 

Come together, sit at the table and ask yourselves the following questions:

- Will we need to revert/remove the penalty for failure for [Reason here]?

- Will [Selectable Challenge] manage to defeat the players or mildly stress them out? Ultimately needing to be removed at a later date?

- Will [Mission Type] be too hard to complete in a back to back format for the playerbase?

- Will [Enemy Type] add an increased rate of failure to the game mode? It Yes, should it be banned from the mode?

- Does [Damage Attenuation/No Revives/Cooldowns/No Summons] create a state of pressure upon the player? So much so that we will need to remove it later?

Cause right now...

My gut tells me you'll be nerfing Deep Archimedia for the next couple update cycles if you don't ask these questions and contemplate resolutions. 

Considering you had to remove Duviri's Teeth, Claws, and Stingers; then paIralyze it from head to toe, just to be safe, then that should give you food for thought moving forward. 

Just keep the content simple, focus on telling amazing stories, improving mechanics, gameplay loops, and delivering a top notch experience.

Yikes!

I know there's a section of players who really like something more challenging, but I don't think the WF player base has every really been into that. They want a chill time feeling powerful and deleting enemies. So I agree.

[zThulsaDoomz]

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

That is complete cap.

There were no and still are no calls to nerf the Fragmented One, trials are regularly brought up as wanting to be brought back, and if you actually played the SP circuit, you'd realize the jackal is a boring invuln wait-out with little replay value that's hey, guess what, a run-ending bug risk at level 1000+ instead of actually being hard.

I swear, this forum is full of people who don't actually play, yet come here just to complain about how bad everyone else supposedly is.

 

Some of us have been playing before the the last update and can remember how Steel Path, Arbitrations, LoR, Eximus rework, Eidolons, Rail jack Grineer units, Fortuna launch enemies, etc were received. 

The next time you call cap on something, at least know the game/community history.  I've been playing since the damn stamina bar was a thing and you had to learn how to copter around the map.  

Honestly your comment is a bit weird ngl, but take your umbrage and indignation elsewhere 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if you're looking for a challenge, Warframe is the wrong place for you. that's all there is to say.

[quxier]

5 hours ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

This is nothing new.

Every time there's even a hint of enemies being able to do anything besides explode into big numbers,  this community will throw a tantrum.

This is a game meant for the casual Andy, and that's perfectly ok

5 hours ago, Binket_ said:

If the lowest performers aren't progressing, it's most likely because they're either too stubborn to actually try or they were never actually challenged once in the game.

I may be wrong. I think someone said that SP Circuit is available after just completing normal Circuit. Do they even need to finish normal Jackal to unlock Parazon?

If above is true then I can see how person without child cannot use void mode or other methods of surviving that average Joe knows.

22 minutes ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

Some of us have been playing before the the last update and can remember how Steel Path, Arbitrations, LoR, Eximus rework, Eidolons, Rail jack Grineer units, Fortuna launch enemies, etc were received. 

I don't know about all of them but there is probably 2 sides of each coin. It's not:

6 hours ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

Every time there's even a hint of enemies being able to do anything besides explode into big numbers,  this community will throw a tantrum.

If you are using your overpowered build then lots of content can be cheesed. It's no wonder that you cannot see problems that someone on lower level or people in certain situations see.

 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

This is a game and when there fails to be any semblance of challenge, it is no longer a game. Just a baby simulator.

[Joezone619]

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree entirely. Warframe needs more challenge not less, I'm here to have fun not be micro-managed.

Edited March 28 by Joezone619

[zThulsaDoomz]

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

I may be wrong. I think someone said that SP Circuit is available after just completing normal Circuit. Do they even need to finish normal Jackal to unlock Parazon?

If above is true then I can see how person without child cannot use void mode or other methods of surviving that average Joe knows.

I don't know about all of them but there is probably 2 sides of each coin. It's not:

If you are using your overpowered build then lots of content can be cheesed. It's no wonder that you cannot see problems that someone on lower level or people in certain situations see.

 

It has nothing to do with an "overpowered" build.  It has nothing to do with my perspective on the game, period. 

There have literally been past threads where people believed they were being "gate kept" out of content.  Look how many players live on Hydron, or won't even look at SP because they think it's too difficult for them (which is interesting as enemy A.I. doesn't improve, they just get healthier).

As I said before, there is nothing wrong with this game being casual friendly.

[Cram_Duahcim]

2 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree entirely. Warframe needs more challenge not less, I'm here to have fun not be micro-managed.

I'm going to agree with you 100% on this, the game needs a place to really put end-game builds through its paces. 

Adding High Challenging Activities doesn't take away from the casual area's it already has. There's no negative to adding it, at all to the game. It needs more of it 100%. 

[DrivaMain]

3 minutes ago, Cram_Duahcim said:

I'm going to agree with you 100% on this, the game needs a place to really put end-game builds through its paces. 

Adding High Challenging Activities doesn't take away from the casual area's it already has. There's no negative to adding it, at all to the game. It needs more of it 100%. 

They'll complain no matter what. I've seen it with Fortuna, I've seen it with Railjack. I won't be surprised if the deep archimedia game mode will suffer the same fate.

DE needs to bait players to play their new content they've poured resources into it, unless it's a one and done content like The Fragmented One. In order to do that? They have to put something of gameplay value. Then here's where the problem starts. Dd add something of value, players who disliked challenge will get it through another method, which is complain to DE to lower to the difficulty to their standards.

At this point, you may want to look another game where the developers says "Suck it up and get good! Don't like it? Don't play our game!" to those challenge-phobic casuals if you don't want your challenge to be taken away.

[ShogunGunshow]

I'm bemused that people still think Defense is the worst.

Run-enders pre-patch has been Survival since they gave the defense objectives actual HP. I can keep enemies off defense objectives; I can't, however, magically make up for half my team standing around with 10 kills and 2% damage done. 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

Im so tired of the Rogue-lite fanaticism.

 

I couldnt give less of a fart about rogue lite.

If I wanted that experience i'd go play whatever game that bad idea came from instead of wanting it shoe horned into this game.

 

Just because something is a good idea in another game doesnt automatically make it a good idea in this game.

LETS HAVE BATTLE ROYAL.

LETS TURN WARFRAME INTO A TURN BASED CARD BATTLE GAME.

LETS TURN WARFRAME INTO A REAL TIME STRATEGY GAME.

How about not. 

Somehow a certain group of people including DE seem to have collectively decided that randomization is True and Good and that attempting this rogue lite nonsense is True and Good because Randomization is True and Good. 

Its a freaking cash grab.

Go forma all the weapons you would normally never use tenno!

[Lancars]

Host Migration is the real villain here. It always seems to be the root cause of these situations. I too have had many runs ruined because the host dropped and the migration failed and i lost everything and I'm on fiber. It seems to brute force everything to another host and its own system collapses in on itself and kicks everyone to their ship. Sometimes even getting out of a mission and on the ship cause the host leave the group it has to do a host migration and on rare moments I've been logged out of the game cause of it.

Somehow, someway the host migration process needs to be changed.

[L3512]

Jackal should never have been introduced into the Circuit in the first place.

[Randomeer]

12 hours ago, Aerikx said:

The Duviri changes were extremely alarming, as it is now officially no longer a "Rogue-Lite" mode, not even in name or spirit.

Without any risk in failure, any aspect of Rogue-Lite fades into the shadows.

If this is about progress checkpoints, losing still makes you go through earlier rounds with fever points. And there are plenty of rogue-lite games that let you retain resources if you fail or bank them at checkpoints without ending the run (for example, Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells).