Ember has been power crept entirely by Dagath

[Dubsurf123]

Now I know that quite a few frames are in need of attention, but it seems Ember is in need of ANOTHER revisit thanks to Dagath essentially being Ember 2.0.

1. Dagath more efficient, requiring less than half the amount of power strength Ember requires while doing far more damage.

 2. She can armor 100% armor strip with no gimmicks. No need to wait for a meter to fill up.

3. She spread doom and viral faster than Ember can spread heat, making her more effective at crowd control.

4. Most of Dagath's abilities can go through, or spread through walls. Ember tediously requires line of sight and is horribly affected by geometry.

5. Dagath's shield gate abuse arguably has more survivability than immolation when built correctly.

6. Dagath's abilities work on most bosses. Ember's Inferno is awfully picky, and doesn't even spawn on archons (which I don't understand, seeing as their damage attenuation would tank it anyways) setting a scary precedent for her effectiveness in future content.

Ember is in desperate need of QOL and maybe even a flat damage buff across the board.

 

 

 

Edited April 10 by Dubsurf123

[Voltage]

Eh, I really dislike the idea of comparing Warframes and asking for X to be buffed because Y exists. Warframes have been cross-pollinating kit performance for years, and you're functionally building a Warframe to tackle all the mission roles at the same time to remain self-sufficient anyways. Ember is no stranger to that and neither is Dagath. All mission roles have been filled out a very long time ago, and Helminth really opens the door for several Warframes to do it all.

I should say though that Flash Accelerant was an extremely unique augment mod, and the only thing that defines Warframes anymore are their flavor of combat through those defining intricacies. I don't enjoy Ember's post-rework state, not because it performs unwell, but I'm of the opinion that what made her stand out was removed in favor of things every Warframe kind of does already.

[RichardKam]

You are not even comparing apple and orange. You are comparing apple and beef wellington.

Btw, Ember is fine. There is no "desperate" need for rework.

Edited April 4 by RichardKam

[Skoomaseller]

12 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

You are not even comparing apple and orange. You are comparing apple and beef wellington.

Btw, Ember is fine. There is no "desperate" need for rework.

he didn't say rework, he said revisit. buffs and whatnot. not a whole rework. 

Agree with you OP. 

Edited April 4 by Skoomaseller

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

No face tho'.

[Synpai]

Caution: This user is not a neutral party/player and may have inherent conflicts of interest and biases as a competitor, so do your due diligence to try systems for yourself and be critical of this user's negativity or criticisms of Warframe.


Personally I absolutely adore talking about the state of any and all Warframes, but I think the forums tend to be apprehensive to using any work but "tweak" frames that aren't basically "falling apart." Especially when you compare them as you did. I don't think Dagath is really the core comparison for Ember; Ember was rough even post rework.

I think it's fair to say frames in general have a much easier time getting mass armor strip without especially after the armor strip rework (Dagath has her own problems aka only being able to have one cavalry at a time so you can't cast too fast + flat straight line that doesn't play well with every tileset).


More or less Ember's 3 active abilities could all be abstracted to 

• Dealing damage (not a lot of it)
• Applying heat status
  • +Fireblast having a further armor strip (thus a little redundant since heat...also armor strips).
  • +Not to mention, fireblast and inferno each have some pretty gnarly line of sight (LOS) requirements that make them feel pretty inconsistent even with high range.

There's a negative feedback loop in the more abilities you cast with immolation active, the more heat gauge you build and the more energy drain you'll incur; almost like old grendel Ember requires a decent bit more attention and effort for what I find not to be the most satisfactory pay off. It's pretty much always better to toggle immolation off than to juggle the gauge.

 I'd love to see Ember's identity shine a bit more even if she just gets the hydroid treatment allowing her to fully strip with heat procs as currently I don't really see her performing any role well, let alone have anything unique. Gauss has a better heat buff augment these days even XD.
 

 

This post is old, like probably even before the heat status changes but I think it still has some good stuff:

Spoiler

 

 

[Hexerin]

Ember is one of those frames that just... She has a great kit in concept and aesthetic, but it's absolutely abysmal in actual gameplay. There's so many limitations and and so much jank, all for an ultimate result of middling to mediocre actual output.

DE needs to either give her a set of massive buffs, or just rework her (again).

[Monolake]

Ember is completely broken with downright player-punishing mechanics.

Remove the buggy broken line-of-sight restriction on her skills (which can get blocked by other enemies!)
She's not doing anything special or OP so this crippling restriction makes no sense at all.

Remove insane escalating uncapped energy drain from Immolation overheat
Why is player punished for using the skill?  Ember is already energy hungry for needing to spam-cycle abilities and this absurd energy drain kills her. Cap it at like ~6/sec at max and that would be balanced. You still have to do lots casts and waste energy and attention balancing heat level.

All her other skills are gimped twice -  because of the stat cap and heat meter dependency, which you cant even keep high or you lose all your energy - and by the LoS restriction. So for example you want to strip armor of everyone in the room?  you have to cast Fireblast maybe 3-4 times to full-strip everyone, and that's a 75-cost skill. (and it doesn't matter how much STR you have modded for, cause its capped and tied to heat meter)

She doesn't need a special BUFF she needs these energy drain and gimping RESTRICTIONS REMOVED, that's it.

Edited April 4 by Monolake

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Wdym, DE wanted her to be used by 0.% of players compared to being popular, she's working as intended. 

[crazywolfpusher]

33 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Remove the buggy broken line-of-sight restriction on her skills (which can get blocked by other enemies!)

Remove insane escalating uncapped energy drain from Immolation overheat

 

These are the main problems. These limitations need to be lifted. In fact, every energy drain ability should get the same Gloom treatment. Boom. Ember and Equinox would become immediately better.

Dante, and Nezha can wipe the map without LoS, no dmg fall off. Is this the new standard? if so, Equinox dmg falloff needs to go. Remove the LoS checks for Ember and maybe reduce the base range to compensate. 

 

 

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, Monolake said:

She doesn't need a special BUFF she needs these energy drain and gimping RESTRICTIONS REMOVED, that's it.

which is a buff lol

[trst]

Sorry but this is an incredibly disingenuous comparison.

Unless you're aiming for specific breakpoints no frame "requires" X amount of Power Strength. However when considering breakpoints for armor stripping neither frame requires strength to hit theirs since they can just cast multiple times. But as for one-cast stripping only then does Dagath have a breakpoint where Ember never does.

Dagath literally has to use a gimmick to strip by applying Doom before Cavalry. Meanwhile Ember can make use of her meter or just cast Fire Blast twice as it always has a base 50% strip. So only Dagath requires a gimmick,

Crowd control has been a dead mechanic for the majority of the game's life. Also a damage amp + Viral =/= Heat spreading.

Oh no Ember has 2 LoS abilities vs Dagath's 1.

Every frame can make use of shield gating abuse. And if we want to argue who's better at it Ember can spam abilities faster and even has the option to generate energy for Augur mods and has DR which applies to shields. Meanwhile Dagath's Grave Spirit is one of the few CD abilities in the game.

And what abilities do/don't work on bosses has always been inconsistent. That's less of an Ember problem and more of a game problem.

 

Ember really doesn't require QoL or buffs. People just need to learn how to play her. Which speaking of: to anyone who struggles with her energy drain please just take off Blind Range and mod for Efficiency. It drastically decreases how fast overheat scales the energy drain on top of reducing how much is drained.

Edited April 4 by trst

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, trst said:

Ember really doesn't require QoL or buffs. People just need to learn how to play her.

I would argue that the wonky LoS check on her 3 goes beyond a player skill issue.  And while the variable energy drain and DR on her 2 might seem interesting and engaging in theory, they are not fun in practice, and could do with some revisions. 
 

She has been vaulted for a long time now. DE could capitalize more on an eventual unvaulting if they timed it with a few tweaks. Nothing major.  Of course this is just from the perspective of a player.  I obviously don’t know if it’s feasible for DE to do something like this with any degree of agility or efficiency. 

[RichardKam]

4小时前 , trst 说:

Sorry but this is an incredibly disingenuous comparison.

Unless you're aiming for specific breakpoints no frame "requires" X amount of Power Strength. However when considering breakpoints for armor stripping neither frame requires strength to hit theirs since they can just cast multiple times. But as for one-cast stripping only then does Dagath have a breakpoint where Ember never does.

Dagath literally has to use a gimmick to strip by applying Doom before Cavalry. Meanwhile Ember can make use of her meter or just cast Fire Blast twice as it always has a base 50% strip. So only Dagath requires a gimmick,

Crowd control has been a dead mechanic for the majority of the game's life. Also a damage amp + Viral =/= Heat spreading.

Oh no Ember has 2 LoS abilities vs Dagath's 1.

Every frame can make use of shield gating abuse. And if we want to argue who's better at it Ember can spam abilities faster and even has the option to generate energy for Augur mods and has DR which applies to shields. Meanwhile Dagath's Grave Spirit is one of the few CD abilities in the game.

And what abilities do/don't work on bosses has always been inconsistent. That's less of an Ember problem and more of a game problem.

 

Ember really doesn't require QoL or buffs. People just need to learn how to play her. Which speaking of: to anyone who struggles with her energy drain please just take off Blind Range and mod for Efficiency. It drastically decreases how fast overheat scales the energy drain on top of reducing how much is drained.

Yes, people keep using blind rage because oh it gives me power strength without looking at Ember passive which easily gives her 90% str. Together with molt augment, blind rage is a bit overkilled.

And I would like to supplement a bit here.

People complain about maintaining max heat gauge to achieve 90% DR and 100% armor strip, which also drain energy exponentially. You get it all wrong. The point of Ember is not about keeping max heat, but maximum rate of heat gain.

When enemy density is sufficiently high eg SP survival, you want to keep the heating rate as high as possible such that after casting fire blast, your downtime between 50% to 100% heat gauge is minimal, while your energy drain is reset. Together with exothermic augment, you should be nuking the room with 100% armor strip endlessly without any energy economy issue.

There is a reason why her 4 does not cost energy when there is no enermy around.

[Operativ]

Ember herself is quite solid, it's just that the latest additions (Dagath, Dante, Kullervo, Voruna, etc.) are on a whole another level than most of the previous warframes. I think the long-term solution is to not keep buffing things, as it will always create a never-ending power creep of 'new standard of strong', and instead revisit the balance of Warframe as a whole. In particular, damage, armour and enemy scaling could be used as a solid basis to make Warframe more challenging & more enjoyable at the same time.

[ReddyDisco]

I like Dagath, she is fun and active, easy to shield gate and lots of damage, a frame i rarely use weapons with because abilities do all the killing. I wish ember was as strong, might be an unpopular opinion but ember's kit needs some qol and number changes.

[(XBOX)Timidobserver]

I think DE needs to do a full review of how los is applied to every frame ability and relax the restrictions for some abilities. Sometimes it feels like you need to be point blank for Ember's armor strip to hit. 

[UnstarPrime]

I don't think it's a good idea to just compare two frames and determine that one needs a buff because it's not as good at X as the other.  So I think this is a poor way to make an argument that Ember needs any changes.

That said, I do think that Ember could use some love.

[zThulsaDoomz]

I'm trying to figure out how she's a victim of power creep, and yet was never really considered overly powerful in the 1st place

BTW Dagath and Ember comparison is wild ngl

Edited April 4 by zThulsaDoomz

[Dubsurf123]

Il y a 21 heures, RichardKam a dit :

You are not even comparing apple and orange. You are comparing apple and beef wellington.

Btw, Ember is fine. There is no "desperate" need for rework.

I didn't say a rework.

I said a "Revisit" which basically just includes some quality of life changes and maybe even a general damage buff. Her kit makes sense and CAN be potent, it's just not ideal in its current state — especially for more relevant content.

Also that last statement seems incredibly dismissive and misses to point of this comparison entirely.

[NameLessFreak]

Dagath is not remotely good lad. 

[Dubsurf123]

Il y a 3 heures, UnstarPrime a dit :

I don't think it's a good idea to just compare two frames and determine that one needs a buff because it's not as good at X as the other.  So I think this is a poor way to make an argument that Ember needs any changes.

That said, I do think that Ember could use some love.

I don't disagree, but the fact of the matter is that she has been power crept and is clearly not optimized for relevant content.

That said — buffs can come in many forms, and this comparison can be seen at face value to at the very least, find ways to make her more efficient and effective to play.

[Dubsurf123]

il y a 2 minutes, NameLessFreak a dit :

Dagath is not remotely good lad. 

She's great, certainly not "S" tier but the community seems to agree that she's definitely solid and can easily handle high level content solo.

Also this has nothing to do with the post, so I don't know why this was important to mention with zero context.

 

 

[Dubsurf123]

Il y a 2 heures, zThulsaDoomz a dit :

I'm trying to figure out how she's a victim of power creep, and yet was never really considered overly powerful in the 1st place

BTW Dagath and Ember comparison is wild ngl

Functionally they have similar playstyles.

I don't understand how it's wild to some people. Mechanically, Dagath is just more efficient at doing the things Ember is supposed to do.

[Dubsurf123]

Le 04/04/2024 à 04:13, trst a dit :

Sorry but this is an incredibly disingenuous comparison.

Unless you're aiming for specific breakpoints no frame "requires" X amount of Power Strength. However when considering breakpoints for armor stripping neither frame requires strength to hit theirs since they can just cast multiple times. But as for one-cast stripping only then does Dagath have a breakpoint where Ember never does.

Dagath literally has to use a gimmick to strip by applying Doom before Cavalry. Meanwhile Ember can make use of her meter or just cast Fire Blast twice as it always has a base 50% strip. So only Dagath requires a gimmick,

Crowd control has been a dead mechanic for the majority of the game's life. Also a damage amp + Viral =/= Heat spreading.

Oh no Ember has 2 LoS abilities vs Dagath's 1.

Every frame can make use of shield gating abuse. And if we want to argue who's better at it Ember can spam abilities faster and even has the option to generate energy for Augur mods and has DR which applies to shields. Meanwhile Dagath's Grave Spirit is one of the few CD abilities in the game.

And what abilities do/don't work on bosses has always been inconsistent. That's less of an Ember problem and more of a game problem.

 

Ember really doesn't require QoL or buffs. People just need to learn how to play her. Which speaking of: to anyone who struggles with her energy drain please just take off Blind Range and mod for Efficiency. It drastically decreases how fast overheat scales the energy drain on top of reducing how much is drained.

Ember without a decent amount of power strength is basically useless. Relying on her immolation alone makes for a very weak frame. Her DR doesn't make much sense mechanically if it's constantly fluctuating to maintain the efficacy her kit — and falls off HARD at higher levels.

While Ember needs to rely on the sacrificing DR for (inconsistent) amor strip and constantly teeter that balance overtime to make her function properly, Dagath only requires a two-button combo to 100% armor strip, and is invulnerable when doing so. 

If the argument is to decipher which gimmick is easier, then my original point still applies.

Same applies for shield gating. Dagath is far more effective at it because she has no abilities that drain per enemy or overtime, nor does she need to prevent excessive drain with odd mechanics. Her abilities also can go through walls.

As a result, Dagath's abilities are dirt cheap, and can be exclusively spammed 24/7 at max efficiency and still put out more damage than Ember ever could, while also gaining constant shield gates from auger mods and catalyzing shields.

In addition, unlike Dagath's abilities, Ember's crowd control is SEVERELY nerfed when eximus units are in play. Overguard also laughs at heat procs.

If you believe otherwise, then Ember is still weak and I'm sure you can make your own conclusion on how to fix her instead of focusing so heavily on an argument that is simply meant to display her shortcomings.

Also, to imply "people just need to learn how to play Ember" is VERY egotistical and disingenuous. Many people know how she functions, and yet still don't play her.

She's not this super secret skill-based frame that only few can master. People have mastered her a long time ago and know she has issues.

 

 

Edited April 10 by Dubsurf123