RIP any hope of Ember being playable

[Berzerkules]

Idk, seems like better energy economy and LoS fixes are some positive changes to me.

Only thing I see is that's odd is purifying flame clears status effect and healing flame gives overguard but overguard makes you immune to status effects. What's the point of purifying flame?

[trst]

7 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Only thing I see is that's odd is purifying flame clears status effect and healing flame gives overguard but overguard makes you immune to status effects. What's the point of purifying flame?

Purifying Flames grants a lingering immunity and gives the same immunity to allies. So it's potentially more reliable but also leans into the "support Ember" build all her other augments enable.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-06-06 at 8:11 PM, Hexerin said:

They did and do. In literally every thread where the discussion of "How do we improve Ember's current problematic state?" comes up. Which you'd know, if you actually paid any attention to the discourse surrounding Ember. But instead, you choose to be toxic and ignorant.

You could've just LISTED your issues. You wrote the complaining post but failed to discuss what you think are Ember's so called "RIP issues". Then you failed to actually list them after others asked you about them. We're not supposed to have to do your job and help you find your issues with her. That is your responsibility. Don't put your failure on us bro. 

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

Idk, seems like better energy economy and LoS fixes are some positive changes to me.

Only thing I see is that's odd is purifying flame clears status effect and healing flame gives overguard but overguard makes you immune to status effects. What's the point of purifying flame?

58 minutes ago, trst said:

Purifying Flames grants a lingering immunity and gives the same immunity to allies. So it's potentially more reliable but also leans into the "support Ember" build all her other augments enable.

Purifying Flames doesn't affect Ember herself, it only cleanses and grants immunity to allies.

Nevermind, this is being changed.

Edited June 8 by Hexerin

[trst]

28 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Purifying Flames doesn't affect Ember herself, it only cleanses and grants immunity to allies.

Watch the Twitter post on her changes again. Pablo explicitly stated that they're changing it to cleanse statuses from Ember.

Now sure that doesn't mean Ember will also get the lingering immunity but it'd be odd to only have half of the effect apply to Ember. But even if it is the case the rest of my statement would still true. since Overguard doesn't remove existing status effects. Thus it's still potentially more reliable since you could always remove status effect with it vs the Overguard augment which could leave you vulnerable at times.

[Hexerin]

7 minutes ago, trst said:

Watch the Twitter post on her changes again. Pablo explicitly stated that they're changing it to cleanse statuses from Ember.

Now sure that doesn't mean Ember will also get the lingering immunity but it'd be odd to only have half of the effect apply to Ember. But even if it is the case the rest of my statement would still true. since Overguard doesn't remove existing status effects. Thus it's still potentially more reliable since you could always remove status effect with it vs the Overguard augment which could leave you vulnerable at times.

Notice the edit I made 20 minutes prior to your response. Also yes, it would make zero sense for them to only have the cleanse be applied to self. It would make significantly more sense that they're just lifting the limitation of the augment affecting self, which means both effects would now apply to self. Purifying Flames will still never be used though, same as things currently stand. Healing Flames will now be used though, since it actually gives a useful effect now.

Edited June 8 by Hexerin

[Nekomian]

14 hours ago, Hexerin said:

It's been gone over and over, again and again, in an endless list of threads across a very long time. If you're still somehow not aware of what Ember's issues are, that's on you at this point. I have no interest in spoon-feeding you, the information is readily available with a simple search.

I looked through like 50 posts and the most common complaint I saw was large energy drain, specifically on Immolation - that's being somewhat resolved, as well as other parts of her kit getting improved energy economy (reduced cost based on heat meter for fire blast). The other complaints I saw were LoS inconsistency (being improved) and Immolation being inconsistent as a DR ability (which is a fair point, but I think they want to keep the heat meter mechanic). There were also complaints about her damage and cc, but she deals so much heat damage (and status) in her kit and has armor strip, both of which scale with immolation and ability strength, as well as benefitting from archon vitality.

There were various other random complaints and rework suggestions (one I saw didn't like her passive?), but I honestly have no idea which ones you're referring to that make her "unplayable". It would help a lot to voice your opinions about it so people don't assume one way or the other, and to avoid confusion since from what I can tell (and from other posters comments here too) the main issues she faces are being resolved.

[Trollocaustic]

OP is clearly dramatic but the fact that Thermal Sunder outshines Ember's entire kit at generating heat procs points to the overall problem of powercreep with the latest frames. I'm not calling for a nerf as I believe that should NEVER be the solution to """"""balancing"""""", but there is a clear line of demarcation between frames designed before and after 2019.

[_Anise_]

her 2 has unlimited? energy scaling where it becomes impossible to maintain without toggling it off and back on again, didn't address this at all?

edit:guess it was addressed by saying its meant to be part of the risk of her playstyle that you have to drop defenses for reasons about risk and reward which I don't entirely understand the reward part.

edit:maybe with overguard I could see myself using adaption and not even needing to rely much on her 2, thoughts?

Edited June 8 by _Anise_

[PollexMessier]

On 2024-06-07 at 4:22 AM, (PSN)Magician_NG said:

Pablo glazing over Ember's range and energy economy issue with her 4 is unfortunate, but otherwise she's fine.

 

Range and energy economy issue with her 4??

That's satire right?

[Berzerkules]

5 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

 

edit:maybe with overguard I could see myself using adaption and not even needing to rely much on her 2, thoughts?

AFAIK adaptation does not effect Overguard. I don't think any damage reduction methods work on Overguard.

[_Anise_]

31 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

AFAIK adaptation does not effect Overguard. I don't think any damage reduction methods work on Overguard.

but if you are taking damage while overguard is up you still build resistance to that kind of damage? right ? and you still get an additional iframe? so it's not entirely worthless?

Edited June 8 by _Anise_

[trst]

5 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

her 2 has unlimited? energy scaling where it becomes impossible to maintain without toggling it off and back on again, didn't address this at all?

edit:guess it was addressed by saying its meant to be part of the risk of her playstyle that you have to drop defenses for reasons about risk and reward which I don't entirely understand the reward part.

edit:maybe with overguard I could see myself using adaption and not even needing to rely much on her 2, thoughts?

Even without the changes Immolate's energy drain has always worked where the moment you reduce it from max you also reset the drain scaling back to it's starting value. So there has never been any reason to toggle Immolate so long as you're casting Fire Blast somewhat regularly. But the changes still address this by making the drain more lenient to be left scaling and makes it easier to manage with a cheaper Fireblast.

As for the reward part of the Heat meter it gives you an "infinite" duration DR ability, makes Fire Blast far more efficient, buffs the heal/overguard of the augment, and buffs Inferno's damage. For comparison with the buffs: with no Heat it takes 2 casts of Fire Blast to full strip with a 150 base energy cost which is reduced to one cast at 25 energy while the augment is going from 25 - 50 heal/overguard based on Heat.

And using Overguard to ignore Immolate it's entirely doable with enough spam. Pair it with Brief Respite and/or Augur mods and you'll be gaining Shield and Overguard gating with every cast. Though energy might be even more of a concern as you're now talking about spamming a 75 cost ability without the reduction from Immolate. Also since you'll be getting the minimum heal/Overguard it might be difficult to build up a buffer of Overguard for the status immunity but the gating is still more than enough value to justify it.

[Nekomian]

5 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

her 2 has unlimited? energy scaling where it becomes impossible to maintain without toggling it off and back on again, didn't address this at all?

edit:guess it was addressed by saying its meant to be part of the risk of her playstyle that you have to drop defenses for reasons about risk and reward which I don't entirely understand the reward part.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, you can just use fire blast and it removes the drain at max immolation, without having to disable the ability, right? That does slightly drop her defenses and they probably could've addressed that, but it also allows the player to basically have permanent DR and gain energy passively (i.e. energy nexus, rally point, etc.) as long as the ability is not at max heat and draining energy. Maybe they could've put an energy cap on it at max so it doesn't get into ridiculous numbers, but if it's easily remedied by pressing another skill it seems fine. Moreso if it's affected by ability efficiency (and duration) too, since that would affect other parts of kit casting as well.

The whole "manage your meter that affects DR" thing isn't even unique to Ember, Gauss has it too with Kinetic Plating, with his being drained per hit even. I think it's fine as a mechanic to make players engage in active parts of their skills to maintain meters if the costs are reduced and manageable, which they're doing here.

[dEjAvU5566]

Fixes make ember’s skill kit more enjoyable to play.

However, since Jade also coming out at the same time, and with subjectively much more powerful skillset, I will say playing with the new frame will feel much better.

 

[_Anise_]

18 hours ago, Nekomian said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding, you can just use fire blast and it removes the drain at max immolation

I didn't realize this, in my experience it was just always capping out and hitting fireblast once would have the meter be at full again almost instantly so I guess I didn't notice it was resetting the drain, Then I guess with lower drain it will make this more manageable

 

18 hours ago, trst said:

buffs the heal/overguard of the augment

I am really looking forwards to this! warframe has loads of healing mechanics but not a lot of need for direct restoration to health so having some kinda of overflow buffer to capture this waste healing is welcome imo

[Berzerkules]

19 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

but if you are taking damage while overguard is up you still build resistance to that kind of damage? right ? and you still get an additional iframe? so it's not entirely worthless?

I don't like tanks and I don't run adaptation normally so I have no idea how it works with overguard. 

After looking at her Healing Flame augment idk how reliable it will be at maintaining overguard since the base heal amount is 25-50 based on immolation level and strength. She's not going to be like Dante and gain massive amounts of og in a single cast and passively regen it. If you hit 10 enemies in a single fireblast cast you're only looking at 250-500 og before strength. Her passive will help with raising base strength so you'll end up getting more og than that but even if it's 1k that will be gone in a hit or 2. The change to healing flame augment might be DoA. We haven't got our hands on it yet so it's all speculation at this point.

The reduced cap on energy drain and LoS changes to fireblast are huge changes that I'm looking forward to. 

[ShogunGunshow]

Ember is playable right now.

People's brains are truly cooked by the power creep lately, I swear. 

[Voltage]

I'd just like to see Accelerant brought back, otherwise Ember is still honestly just another boring and homogenized Warframe with nothing actually unique to bring to the table.

Edited June 9 by Voltage

[Xsoskeleton]

If your point being Ember unable to compete with the brainrot wukong slams in public, sure. i can see that.

But unplayable? thats a massive stretch. She's still a solid pick for me outside level cap SP stuffs. Exothermic augment already made her useful both for herself and the team and occasional radial armor strip to prevent her DR mechanic from draining energy. The upcoming changes facilitate her existing function either to better degree or less energy punishing, so i am extremely at loss at what OP tries to say.

[Voltage]

10 hours ago, Xsoskeleton said:

If your point being Ember unable to compete with the brainrot wukong slams in public, sure. i can see that.

But unplayable? thats a massive stretch. She's still a solid pick for me outside level cap SP stuffs. Exothermic augment already made her useful both for herself and the team and occasional radial armor strip to prevent her DR mechanic from draining energy. The upcoming changes facilitate her existing function either to better degree or less energy punishing, so i am extremely at loss at what OP tries to say.

The bigger problem with Ember is that she is arguably the only Warframe to ever receive a rework that actively made her worse and less interesting than her previous kit. This is because she received an entire rework before DE committed to updating Heat damage and Heat status, and they attempted to homogenize what she offered compared to other Warframes like they've been doing since 2019. The mistake DE made with Ember is not waiting on whether the changes to Heat would have fixed Ember's issues of the time. The other thing too is that DE is now always actively fighting the Helminth system when looking at a Warframe's kit. That system corrodes the identifiable role a Warframe possesses by allowing the player to supplement whatever they want.

Ember doesn't suffer from being playable, she suffers from offering anything unique to the roster or a mission. We're in an era of the game now where the strength of an ability is less relevant than whether the ability is identifiable and requires you to take that Warframe. The reason Dante is so popular is because he does both at the same time. The same can be said for the most popular Warframes like Revenant, Khora or Saryn. However, there are plenty of Warframes that remain relevant not because of extreme strength, but their unique qualities within abilities. These are the Nekros, Nova, and Frost area of the roster. They aren't weak by any means, but they bring abilities that offer bonuses other Warframes really don't match often. This same problem has plagued the entire melee system. Most players go for melee weapons because of their gimmicks and effective range, as the amount of damage they deal really isn't relevant anymore. Nezha and Gauss both have identifiable and unique offerings with their heat abilities and augments that other Warframe's just don't have. Ember used to have three (Accelerant, Fire Blast, and World on Fire). Now she has two (Fire Blast and Inferno), and Helminth undermines Fire Blast as it's a subsume. Slapping on Overguard, but only for Ember (creating yet another inconsistency with how Helminth is supposed to work) doesn't magically fix this dilemma. The same fate has happened to other Warframes like Valkyr.

I bring this up every recent Ember thread, but the return of Accelerant as an identifiable ability for Ember and the unique squad-wide casting speed bonus from Flash Accelerant as an augment would put her right back on the map as a permanently relevant Warframe, especially with how many builds and loadouts rely on Heat damage and Heat status. She'd also tremendously benefit from subsuming abilities that further buff Heat damage or offer a Heat source like Thermal Sunder. I don't wish for World on Fire to return, but Immolation could absolutely use a replacement, or a complimentary function such as Accelerant.

Edited June 10 by Voltage

[Prexades]

Am 8.6.2024 um 00:41 schrieb Joezone619:

Damage that pales in comparison to other frames, abilities that actively punish the player, and an ultimate that doesn't even match the theme of the warframe.

What a waste of such a great frame's legacy...

The ultimate very much matches her theme I would say.

[Nekomian]

36 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I bring this up every recent Ember thread, but the return of Accelerant as an identifiable ability for Ember and the unique squad-wide casting speed bonus from Flash Accelerant as an augment would put her right back on the map as a permanently relevant Warframe, especially with how many builds and loadouts rely on Heat damage and Heat status. She'd also tremendously benefit from subsuming abilities that further buff Heat damage or offer a Heat source like Thermal Sunder. I don't wish for World on Fire to return, but Immolation could absolutely use a replacement, or a complimentary function such as Accelerant.

It's been a hot minute since I used Ember prior to her rework, so I had to look Accelerant up - based on what I'm reading, it has a higher multiplier than even eclipse but only for heat damage (x2.5 dmg at max rank, scales with strength), and has a 20m radius with no LoS checks. It also stuns enemies, providing some cc.

This doesn't seem particularly interesting or engaging, even if it has the potential to be a very strong ability (I'm seeing some rather old videos of people doing millions of damage with it, even if that's rather standard with a good incarnon build or something nowadays) if all you do is press a button and everything within' 40m (since you'd mod for range to mark more enemies) or so gets stunned and takes increased heat damage. It apparently also applied the increased damage to HM procs from some comments I'm seeing too, if the crit dealt also caused a heat proc.

The flash accelerant augment seems nice and compliments the ability, but skills like this that enforce elemental damage buffs tend to mess up squad builds. It's normally an inconvenience, but with an ability that only works fully with one type of damage, it seems to very strictly limit you and squad members to heat-based builds to make the most of it. I can definitely see why they'd want to replace this, it should probably be type-agnostic and provide damage vulnerability instead, and have some sort of sight checks, but ultimately it still seems a bit annoying to deal with and work around. Immolation fulfills a similar role of adding more damage to your fire-based abilities (via heat meter) while also providing DR and not being restrictive to builds or squad play (since even if you build for heat and a volt with shock trooper comes along, with accelerant your extra damage on weapons no longer works as it's radiation not heat, invalidating everything but the stun and casting speed).

Maybe I just don't like the ability, but I don't think they should bring accelerant back (at least as is) - there's other ways to make her kit more unique or relevant without causing build limitations like this. Immolation could have an increased status % chance or reload speed to weapons at max heat meter, or extra ability damage or increased attack and cast speed, or some other buff that would be unique to her kit that other frames don't have under certain conditions (it's hard to theorycraft these on a whim), allowing for varied play styles depending on what the player wants to do. I just don't think "more damage but only of this one type" is a good approach to it, even if it would definitely give her something unique.

[Joezone619]

3 hours ago, Prexades said:

The ultimate very much matches her theme I would say.

Name the frame: They have an ability that shoots rocks at people.

Atlas - Mag - Ember - Qorvex

We all know the answer, but my points stands and my mind is made up, rocks do not equal fire. Whats next, will atlas get a rework with a new ultimate that sets nearby enemies on fire passively like world on fire?

Edited June 9 by Joezone619
On a side note, its actually kinda funny how atlas, the rock frame, doesn't have an ability that shoots rocks without an augment.

[Prexades]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Joezone619:

Name the frame: They have an ability that shoots rocks at people.

Atlas - Mag - Ember - Qorvex

We all know the answer, but my points stands and my mind is made up, rocks do not equal fire. Whats next, will atlas get a rework with a new ultimate that sets nearby enemies on fire passively like world on fire?

Inferno

"Command a flaming comet to crash down in front of ember, engulfing enemies with a fire that can spread through their ranks. "

 

World on Fire was terrible gameplay wise. Just press a button and she casts a channeling AoE circle around her.

"But Saryn..."  No, just no. Saryn still needs to spread her spores before Miasma becomes useful.