Jade's new kit and what it can mean for the design direction in the future worries me.

[Mawashiro]

Let me start of by saying, Jade Shadows has been great, great new frame, great QOL changes, fun new gamemode and cool rewards, overall just great. But the way in which DE went about with making Jade's abilities has me quite worried about the future of frame design.

It can be seen that the new frames coming into the game have been very varied when it comes to their role, yet one thing remains the same between all of them, the ability to nuke and do instant crazy damage. This does not just stop at casters like Dante or Dagath, but even frames that traditionally would not be expected to have nuking capability. Qorvex, the supposed tank frame, can recreate Chernobyl and dissintegrate enemies in seconds with his radiation procs; Kullervo, the melee frame, can delete an entire room with 2 buttons; and now Jade, a frame advertised as being a support, can rain death from the sky to hordes of enemies.

Now these of course are not the only examples we can go even further back if we want to, but my point here is that it seems DE feel pressured into making new frames, no matter the role, to be able to churn out crazy damage at a fast rate. The reason of course, is pretty obvious, damage has a massive chokehold on the meta, with CC being dead in the water for a long time (so long its corpse has drifted off elsewhere). To expand on this I would like to refer to Triburos' video on the subject, it's a great watch. DE probably think that if they do not make a nuke frame, then that frame will not see enough relevancy. It was this tweet from Pablo that both confirmed that this seems to be the case, as well as compelled me to make this post. Notice how in the question, the guy never said anything about how to go about a rework, but Pablo just assumed that DPS was the way.

Now, to bring a conclusion to all of this rambling, I do not hate nuking frames, in fact I, like many other Warframe players, loving deleting rooms of enemy, it is very sastifying indeed. What I want is more variety, both in terms of frame design and the role they offer. Take a look at Wisp and we can see that she is one of the most popular frames despite not really being a nuker, as well as the new and very much celebrated Inaros rework making him relevant again without changing his core. It is clear from these examples that DE know how to make effective frames without making them do crazy damage, so please DE, do that.

Edited June 26 by Mawashiro

[Chewarette]

True, some things being exclusive or limited is OK. Some Warframes having very specific roles is OK too. But DE, by deciding a few years back to remove CC from the game by introducing lots and lots of immune enemies, and by also removing Support warframes by giving everyone and their mothers access to Shards, Arcanes, always-more-powerful-mods and more importantly the Helminth - not even mentioning the only niche Support Warframes had with Defense targets that could benefit from heals -, has self-blocked themselves : Either the new Warframe is versatile and can do everything by itself, or it won't be played.

I'm pretty sure that if Trinity or Harrow would be released in 2024, they would have a map-wide AoE eradicating all enemies that wander too close.

Edited June 26 by Chewarette

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

I miss WoF Ember. :(

Click 4, run forward, done.

[Drachnyn]

Killings tons of enemies is simply worth it because they provide valuable loot.

[Marvelous_A]

Not that CC warframe will turn out well with the overguard existing. "Being dead is the best CC". Even more so when the most threatening enemies in this game are also conveniently immune to crowd controls.

[ominumi]

Utility with damage component has a more engaging playstyle than nuking the map.

[Rexis12]

Blame things like Overguard and enemies that deal insane amounts of damage, as well as people that continuously defend enemies that deal insane amounts of damage and have Overguard.

See how many people think that the Jade enemies are a 'Challenge' and aren't just another DPS check that invalidates Defense abilities and DR abilities and instead hyper focuses you even more into Damage.

 

At the very least though, it encourages movements. I just wished that it stayed slowed and didn't #*!%ing speed up if it touches you.

Like why is my movement in a movement based shooter meaningless if the enemies can just flick towards me?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Mawashiro:

Let me start of by saying, Jade Shadows has been great, great new frame, great QOL changes, fun new gamemode and cool rewards, overall just great. But the way in which DE went about with making Jade's abilities has me quite worried about the future of frame design.

It can be seen that the new frames coming into the game have been very varied when it comes to their role, yet one thing remains the same between all of them, the ability to nuke and do instant crazy damage. This does not just stop at casters like Dante or Dagath, but even frames that traditionally would not be expected to have nuking capability. Qorvex, the supposed tank frame, can recreate Chernobyl and dissintegrate enemies in seconds with his radiation procs; Kullervo, the melee frame, can delete an entire room with 2 buttons; and now Jade, a frame advertised as being a support, can rain death from the sky to hordes of enemies.

Now these of course are not the only examples we can go even further back if we want to, but my point here is that it seems DE feel pressured into making new frames, no matter the role, to be able to churn out crazy damage at a fast rate. The reason of course, is pretty obvious, damage has a massive chokehold on the meta, with CC being dead in the water for a long time (so long its corpse has drifted off elsewhere). To expand on this I would like to refer to Triburos' video on the subject, it's a great watch. DE probably think that if they do not make a nuke frame, then that frame will not see enough relevancy. It was this tweet from Pablo that both confirmed that this seems to be the case, as well as compelled me to make this post. Notice how in the question, the guy never said anything about how to go about a rework, but Pablo just assumed that DPS was the way.

Now, to bring a conclusion to all of this rambling, I do not hate nuking frames, in fact I, like many other Warframe players, loving deleting rooms of enemy, it is very sastifying indeed. What I want is more variety, both in terms of frame design and the role they offer. Take a look at Wisp and we can see that she is one of the most popular frames despite not really being a nuker, as well as the new and very much celebrated Inaros rework making him relevant again without changing his core. It is clear from these examples that DE know how to make effective frames without making them do crazy damage, so please DE, do that.

If that worries you so much, maybe play something else? Of course, this is just a suggestion.
Because the games are for fun!
And if the future of the game worries you so much, it is not good for your health! And negative emotions are not healthy either ...
I take everything loose. Everything may come. And nobody forces me to log in ... so I'm mostly very relaxed ..

Edited June 26 by Venus-Venera

[trst]

Unfortunantly the ship has long since sailed on this issue. A frame that fits solely into a specific roll isn't something that'll work anymore since powercreep has destroyed the boundaries between said rolls.

Every frame can do insane damage via weapons, every frame can face-tank anything in the game with the right build, and any frame can support others by just killing everything first.
While in the case of specific frame niches a pure tank frame can only function in the case of having outright invulnerability (Revenant) but even then any frame can tank just as well. Any pure damage frame would struggle fitting both damage and survivability options but would be outclassed by weapons and grouping abilities anyways. CC frames have been dead for 7+ years and nothing will ever revive them. And a pure support frame (Trinity) contributes nothing since every player can, and often does, have any of a dozen different ways to stay alive, generate their own energy, and already have overkill damage.

This is just the end point of years of unchecked powercreep and a refusal to actually nerf players. But at least it also means that a frame can be reduced to a cosmetic if one so chooses.

[zThulsaDoomz]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Magician_NG said:

I miss WoF Ember. :(

Click 4, run forward, done.

Old WoF Ember was horrible 

[LiquidMaqma]

I hate how painfully generic abilities have become on new frames in terms of function in order to confirm to this new design spec. How many more frames do we need with immunity, a nuke and armour strip? It's the same abilities but with a different coat of paint. I would rather something unique like Lavos, or a rework to an old frame that has fallen out of favour, or even reduced CC effectiveness vs Eximi instead of complete immunity.

[RichardKam]

11小时前 , (PSN)Magician_NG 说:

I miss WoF Ember. :(

Click 4, run forward, done.

*In regular starchart.

[OneOmniverse]

7 hours ago, trst said:

Unfortunantly the ship has long since sailed on this issue. A frame that fits solely into a specific roll isn't something that'll work anymore since powercreep has destroyed the boundaries between said rolls.

Every frame can do insane damage via weapons, every frame can face-tank anything in the game with the right build, and any frame can support others by just killing everything first.
While in the case of specific frame niches a pure tank frame can only function in the case of having outright invulnerability (Revenant) but even then any frame can tank just as well. Any pure damage frame would struggle fitting both damage and survivability options but would be outclassed by weapons and grouping abilities anyways. CC frames have been dead for 7+ years and nothing will ever revive them. And a pure support frame (Trinity) contributes nothing since every player can, and often does, have any of a dozen different ways to stay alive, generate their own energy, and already have overkill damage.

This is just the end point of years of unchecked powercreep and a refusal to actually nerf players. But at least it also means that a frame can be reduced to a cosmetic if one so chooses.

Are you saying there's no hope for any more originality anymore? 

[trst]

8 minutes ago, OneOmniverse said:

Are you saying there's no hope for any more originality anymore? 

In regards to a frame's kit, yes. Unless DE wants to waste the time putting out a frame that'll be incredibly niche and spawn an endless list of complaints about them for underperforming every other frame. Which would also translate into poor sales relating to said frame.

 

But in regards to design, no, there's still going to be originality there. At least until DE starts running out of viable themes and goes about doubling up on every theme. But who knows if that'll ever happen.

Though I'd also lump how an ability is used into design. Like how Pillage and Fire Blast are both armor stripping abilities but perform that purpose differently with different secondary effects. There's many ways to apply and mix together a damage buff, strip an enemie's defenses, grant damage reduction, gather enemies, etc. But at the end of the day it's still all the same selection of effects just with differing visuals.

[Rexis12]

7 hours ago, trst said:

refusal to actually nerf players.

You do know the reason the DPS meta is the way it is right now is due to indirect nerfs to players right? 

Like did you think that Nullifies aren't an indirect nerf to 'Ability Spam' that ultimately hurt non DPS abilities more than the DPS abilities it was aiming for, as it basically nullified defensive abilities. 

Or did you think something like Scrambus that turned off abilities didn't unfairly targeted DR, CC and Defense abilities. While DPS abilities can just be applied again once the disable duration ends. 

Or do you think that Overguard wasn't a nerf to CC and defense abilities, especially with enemy abilities that can just go through defense abilities like Snow Globe and Shock Shield. 

Or how the new Worm enemy on release wasn't a massive nerf to CC and Melee focuses frames, with them being CC immune and having the abilities to fart out a constant magnetic gas. 

 

They do nerf the players, and the issue is that those nerfs always push towards damage and it's the reason why the game is 'the way it is'. 

You  can't have a dedicated CC anymore, because all the enemies that you would want to CC are not only immune to it, but chances are when they do get CC'd they can still use their abilities. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

So I don't necessarily disagree with your overall points or reasoning, after all a lot of this could be said to be subjective, but I do wonder about some of your framing of certain points. Like I think specifics and context are important here. I have seen a of of people make claims about certain things being OP and crazzzyy, but then the set ups required, the investment, synergy required, opportunity costs etc are all overlooked factors.

For example, on Earth Star Chart, lots of Warframes can nuke with abilities, effortlessly and casually, just because of how weak the enemies are. Mag's 4, Frosts 4, even Chromas 4 will "nuke" enemies. Except usually people apply context, like the fact that Star Chart Earth isn't usually the content most people play as far as considering Warframes power output and so on. So when we talk about Qorvex nuking, what content are we talking about? Base Steel Path? Endurance? What combination of abilities specifically? Just his abilities? Only abilities? Or including synergy with other tools? As effectively as Zephyr or Saryn? How much set up is required? Same with any other Warframe. Many can nuke, but some require more set up than others, and then variables get more complex when you add in synergies with other tools, weapons. 

Lets put this another way. Do you think that all Warframes should have a decent shot at soloing a Steel Path Survival for a bit? Like some can, just with their abilities, some will need synergy with other tools, like weapons. Personally? I just think a lot of newer Warframes have abilities that actually just scale in such a way, that they scale better than some older Warframes, so they don't necessarily have to rely so heavily on weapons. Thats not necessarily a bad thing. Like Wisp can do some pretty crazy things with Breach Surge (though its been a while since I was super invested in such builds and IIRC they nerfed some of that a while back?) There were even some pretty niche builds you can do, to actually make her 4 a lot more effective. There is a distinction between people's capacity to nuke, and their perception of value. Like I do think that Jade and Dante can output a lot of DPS, but ehhh, more set up is required and I think many other Warframes DPS scales better, like Dagath, and Kullervo, with much less set up required, and that also makes sense to me, given all of their respective strengths and weaknesses. Now I also like Qorvex, and i haven't tested his new Augment, but is his KPM suddenly much higher and is he outperforming other nukes all of a sudden? Or is he just more effective than he was, and can his abilities scale relatively well into harder content? You can build your Sentinel to "disintegrate enemies in seconds" but colourful language can make many things seem stronger than they actually are, as far as numbers, stats and direct comparisons. 

Again though, not necessarily disagreeing with the overall point, but such threads pop up a lot, in a pattern. Ever since I have been playing Warframe. Often with a slightly different spin. Like i remember people complaining about even way back when Wisp, Gauss, Grendel, Protea, about how "weren't as good as older Warframes", not original, not as interesting, over designed, etc often peoples points or opinions competed or contradicted (which isn't crazy, given the nature of opinions and preferences of course), but just speaking personally, I just thought all the new Warframes were pretty decent, interesting and relatively unique. I also personally think last few years new Warframes have been pretty stellar (I could see why many might consider 2021's line up a bit weak, I personally think 2023 was really strong though). 

[schilds]

Frames do not have "roles".

[trst]

36 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

You do know the reason the DPS meta is the way it is right now is due to indirect nerfs to players right? 

Like did you think that Nullifies aren't an indirect nerf to 'Ability Spam' that ultimately hurt non DPS abilities more than the DPS abilities it was aiming for, as it basically nullified defensive abilities. 

Or did you think something like Scrambus that turned off abilities didn't unfairly targeted DR, CC and Defense abilities. While DPS abilities can just be applied again once the disable duration ends. 

Or do you think that Overguard wasn't a nerf to CC and defense abilities, especially with enemy abilities that can just go through defense abilities like Snow Globe and Shock Shield. 

Or how the new Worm enemy on release wasn't a massive nerf to CC and Melee focuses frames, with them being CC immune and having the abilities to fart out a constant magnetic gas. 

 

They do nerf the players, and the issue is that those nerfs always push towards damage and it's the reason why the game is 'the way it is'. 

You  can't have a dedicated CC anymore, because all the enemies that you would want to CC are not only immune to it, but chances are when they do get CC'd they can still use their abilities. 

Literally all of those are the result of DE refusing to nerf players.

Nullifiers wouldn't need to exist if abilities were toned down, same goes for Scrambus enemies. Overguard wouldn't need to exist if DE nerfed CC so that it couldn't be a universal fall back for difficult enemies. And you wouldn't need enemies that are stronger in melee range if melee wasn't as overkill is it currently is. As well damage attenuation was their attempt to address damage but that too wouldn't need to exist if damage was just nerfed.

And really the only thing that makes damage the standout is because other systems quickly reached powercreep saturation. CC can't be powercrept past turning an ai off. Survivability can't go beyond taking no damage. But damage can still see your numbers get arbitrary higher. Thus DE's need to dangle some upgrade in front of players to incentivize content had to be damage since nothing else could be buffed further. Plus damage can be dealt with by just inflating enemy numbers. However a system that turns enemy ai/damage off works regardless of their stats.

So when DE inevitably needs to add something new to address damage instead of just nerfing it directly the cycle will just repeat. And just seeing more damage getting shoved in since it's all they can offer at this point.

 

So sure DE does nerf players but only via indirect means. However those additions only exist because DE won't touch players directly. And that refusal is why the game is stuck in this rut of frame kits needing to be so samey.

Edited Thursday at 03:22 AM by trst

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

18 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Not that CC warframe will turn out well with the overguard existing. "Being dead is the best CC". Even more so when the most threatening enemies in this game are also conveniently immune to crowd controls.

I really hate the exiumus overguard being a thing. 

1) its just an automatic NOPE to cc abilities across the board. There's no depth or anything to it. An enemy is either turned completely helpless by cc or 100% immune there is no in between. 

2) this punishes some frames alot more than others and it feels like there's no rhyme or reason to it. If you're tanky enough it doesn't matter but if you're not playing a frame that can face tank everything it's a bigger hassle and there's nothing that makes that feel justified. 

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, schilds said:

Frames do not have "roles".

anymore*

[OneOmniverse]

19 hours ago, trst said:

In regards to a frame's kit, yes. Unless DE wants to waste the time putting out a frame that'll be incredibly niche and spawn an endless list of complaints about them for underperforming every other frame. Which would also translate into poor sales relating to said frame.

 

But in regards to design, no, there's still going to be originality there. At least until DE starts running out of viable themes and goes about doubling up on every theme. But who knows if that'll ever happen.

Though I'd also lump how an ability is used into design. Like how Pillage and Fire Blast are both armor stripping abilities but perform that purpose differently with different secondary effects. There's many ways to apply and mix together a damage buff, strip an enemie's defenses, grant damage reduction, gather enemies, etc. But at the end of the day it's still all the same selection of effects just with differing visuals.

hmm i suppose so. :|

[Aruquae]

DE asked for this the moment they started to kill CC. What other alternative to damage was there? Well it doesn't matter now because they made sure to murder CC, and it's offspring.

[Rexis12]

8 hours ago, Aruquae said:

DE asked for this the moment they started to kill CC. What other alternative to damage was there? Well it doesn't matter now because they made sure to murder CC, and it's offspring.

But CC was "Too Strong".

Lmao, this reminds me when people complained that Vazarin, the Healer Operator School was Healing too good, especially in regards to Defense Objectives and gutted it. 

So it's all DPS from here baby. 

[Yamazuki]

4 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

But CC was "Too Strong".

Lmao, this reminds me when people complained that Vazarin, the Healer Operator School was Healing too good, especially in regards to Defense Objectives and gutted it. 

So it's all DPS from here baby. 

The issue DE has with CC isn't just because "too strong". DE will nerf something, even if it is objectively inferior to alternatives, if it enables afk or semi-afk playstyles. We have multiple missions, and have had very rewarding events, that had minimal or zero kill requirements which means you can permanently aoe cc the map and actually afk until you need to reapply it with minimal movement to avoid afk-flagging. When you're at a certain point in the game, the drops from kills actually do not matter for a lot of missions and events, as the reward is tied to mission completion or a singular specific enemy.

It's easier to try and nerf cc or something like Celestial Twin, rather than changing how missions are designed.

[ScytheG]

Unless they are willing to lessen grinding overall I don't think it wise to nerf nuking things down.

How many hundreds of runs have you done to get anything done in this game? Do you want that to take even longer?

I mean, they should lessen the grind, but don't know how or when that could even happen since a lot of things need to be redone for that I think. Does it still take 100 hours for new players to get to the Second Dream?