I'm starting to think Helminth is a failed mechanic

[L3512]

Helminth was a good addition to the game.

[0_The_F00l]

I like the concept actually , 

The abilities are also modified slightly on a case to case basis.

Yes , there are definitely some abilities that are better than others. And No , I don't think they can get individual abilities on parity no matter how much they tweak the numbers.

But I like how I can have a nekros with a disco ball.

[_4shes]

I don't think the helminth system is the issue, I think it's more about the existence of a lot of mediocre abilities. Some abilities just so happen to work conceptually on everything because of how simple or independent they are. If you want people to do less subsuming or diversify what they subsume D.E. would need to take a look at why people opt for some option over others.

[_4shes]

8 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Helminth is fine, There is no issue in nourish/roar/gloom/eclipse or whatever ability you think is being "overused"

If these abilities fix a flaw in a warframe's kit that prevents people from making 100 posts daily on the forums demanding a rework for said frame then it's the lesser of two evil, There many other things we can worry about other than the helminth or it's abilities.

As for the fact that overusing abilities is annoying you then idk what to say tbh, If you pay attention to what other people build or use you probably have too much free time and if you're annoyed that you personally are using these abilities too much you can always try something else.

yes because they can't rework 10 warframes per year while providing a ton of new content to keep the game alive and believe it or not you're in the minority that thinks reworking warframes is better than helminth

Also worth noting that the problem you listed here is a problem D.E. wrote themselves into. They should have been tweaking these abilities as feedback was given upon release of a Warframe. They let this pile up.

Also people looking at other builds and people sharing builds has nothing to do with "too much free time" it's literally apart of the community; Players Helping Players.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean if you frame it so narrowly and specifically sure, but I don't think thats necessarily accurate. 

For example since Helminth was introduced, plenty of useless abilities have been improved or, buffed, adjusted, reworked etc. So clearly, many Warframe abilities are still being fixed post Helminth introduction. Arguably some of those old useless abilities are still useless to some, and so still popular considerations for some to use a Helminth ability instead, but that would be the same regardless of Helminth. You could argue that it would be fixed and addressed more often, but that would be speculation. 

I say that as someone who barely engages with using Helminth to replace abilities and uses most Warframes in activities others often refer to as end game, from Netracells, EDA, Steel Path Endurance (I rarely go to level cap though, just because I am not interested in sessions longer than 2 hours, so if its Cascade or Disruption, maybe but, and I also personally don't consider level cap so special or mystical either mind you), my general point is a lot of people can get weird about meta and performance, whats viable, not viable, and getting mixed up over personal subjective gameplay preferences and playstyles and how the game should be designed. 

People go like "is that good design?" and then go on to state some of the worst ideas ever when you actually get them to describe actual good design then, and then they get defensive when other fans pick apart their perceived notions of "good design", but occasionally some people do have decent or even great ideas, just its not common, and such people should try and get into games and produce some, if possible. 

Then finally as I mentioned, I personally don't really engage with the Helminth that way, but plenty of other people like it and use it, so probably justifies the resources that went into creating it. I have also tested it out a lot when bored, and it can be fun, even if I am still a bit critical of the idea/execution. 

[supernils]

8 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Have you by any chance done that? How is it working for you?

I haven't replaced any ability yet. The only thing I'm planning to do is replace one of Lokis useless abilities with this Helminth hack ability (that's how it works, right?) because I think it fits the kits theme nicely.

Which is another point, the kits get bastardized just for usability, the frames identity is secondary.

[Circle_of_Psi]

I don't see it as a failed mechanic, more of a failsafe mechanic

[supernils]

10 hours ago, trst said:

Since Helminth was added we've seen Zephyr, Grendel, Hydroid, and Inaros getting full reworks while other frames have continued to see patches and augments on top of all the augment buffs/reworks

I don't wanna dismiss the work that the great folks at DE are doing (love you and your game!). They are surely not "calling it a day" as I wrote.

But the impression still stands. Players are picking "OP" abilities and replace broken abilities. And that's an activity that happening directly in the void where DE did not do highly needed work yet. It's a bad look which I am highlighting.

Edited July 5 by supernils

[Waeleto]

5 hours ago, _4shes said:

Also worth noting that the problem you listed here is a problem D.E. wrote themselves into. They should have been tweaking these abilities as feedback was given upon release of a Warframe. They let this pile up.

Also people looking at other builds and people sharing builds has nothing to do with "too much free time" it's literally apart of the community; Players Helping Players.

And we continue to see this trend with qorvex/dagath/jade but when a frame like dante is released in an amazing state he gets nerfed to the ground 💀

[supernils]

43 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

And we continue to see this trend with qorvex/dagath/jade but when a frame like dante is released in an amazing state he gets nerfed to the ground 💀

calling a clearly OP frame "amazing" is exactly what promotes DE to f up balance in the first place. Specific nerfs are clearly the better way to balance than trying to bring up ALL OTHER FRAMES up to his level, but it seems you're not interested in balance but "just give me power".

[Zakkhar]

6 hours ago, supernils said:

The only thing I'm planning to do is replace one of Lokis useless abilities with this Helminth hack ability (that's how it works, right?) because I think it fits the kits theme nicely.

I got it on Ivara, I find her much better suited for most Spies, beside maybe Lua (where Wukong shines) and Kuva Fortress (running simulator).

6 hours ago, supernils said:

Which is another point, the kits get bastardized just for usability, the frames identity is secondary.

No they are not. Just because you cant see any more uses for Loki doesnt mean he hasnt any. Hell there are even builds that use different frames with Loki's own Helmninth ability (Decoy) with the Damage Decoy Augument.

[Drachnyn]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb Zakkhar:

No they are not. Just because you cant see any more uses for Loki doesnt mean he hasnt any. Hell there are even builds that use different frames with Loki's own Helmninth ability (Decoy) with the Damage Decoy Augument.

I am convinced decoy was buffed (both baseline and through the augment) because it is a helminth ability. It's pretty solid now when a situation calls for it and I've made great use of it in EDA.

[supernils]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

No they are not. Just because you cant see any more uses for Loki doesnt mean he hasnt any. Hell there are even builds that use different frames with Loki's own Helmninth ability (Decoy) with the Damage Decoy Augument.

what I meant by that is why would for example a heat themed Warframe suddenly have a magnetic pull ability? makes no sense

 

 

Edited July 5 by supernils

[trst]

5 hours ago, supernils said:

I don't wanna dismiss the work that the great folks at DE are doing (love you and your game!). They are surely not "calling it a day" as I wrote.

But the impression still stands. Players are picking "OP" abilities and replace broken abilities. And that's an activity that happening directly in the void where DE did not do highly needed work yet. It's a bad look which I am highlighting.

What "broken" abilities? Are these genuinely worthless and non-functional, or are they for a more niche purpose or powercrept by other Helminth options? Because the latter issue is something intrinsic to giving players choice and can't be "fixed" via balancing.

Because right now the only frame I can even think of with a "broken" ability would be Limbo who's unique interaction with Overguard disables non-CC interaction in his kit.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

It makes an easy game even easier. Personally I'm not the biggest fan of Roar or Nourish; in casual play we obliterate mobs well enough already. I much prefer Silence to turn the acolyte into a potato. It's too bad Healing Flame's overguard was isolated to Ember. It would've been competitive with Gloom...to let any frame have overguard on-demand. 

[EverdarkRaven]

It's a good resource sink if nothing else, I guess. 

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, supernils said:

4 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

No they are not. Just because you cant see any more uses for Loki doesnt mean he hasnt any. Hell there are even builds that use different frames with Loki's own Helmninth ability (Decoy) with the Damage Decoy Augument.

what I meant by that is why would for example a heat themed Warframe suddenly have a magnetic pull ability? makes no sense

It is not a High Fantasy setting. Themes are there only from development standpoint or player viewpoint. We got children/teens telepathicaly operating ancient humanoidal infested machines, while existing in two (or more) separate timelines. 

There is nothing sudden in it, Helminth is already established in the Lore and world and it is there long before the Segment becomes available. He eats the frames and assimilates their abilities (via DNA?) and then in turn mutates other frames with those abilities. It makes perfect sense.

Edited July 5 by Zakkhar

[zThulsaDoomz]

On 2024-07-04 at 4:03 PM, supernils said:

If meta was bad before Helminth, Helminth is only making it worse. 

This statement is interesting 

Metas are in every game, and I can think of plenty of metas that were "worse" before the Helminth system was even an idea.  

And yes, if something is good and/or fun, it will be popular.  However that doesn't mean Helminth overall is a failed system.  Flawed most definitely, but not failed.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 4.7.2024 um 22:03 schrieb supernils:

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day? Is that good game design?

If meta was bad before Helminth, Helminth is only making it worse. But hey, it adds an additional layer of grind, so that's good money I guess.

According to an old interview, they don't care about balance at all. Because only new content counts. Exact quote: "new content = life"

[supernils]

26 minutes ago, zThulsaDoomz said:

And yes, if something is good and/or fun, it will be popular

the problem is that for a certain type of player "good" seems to be the main factor for "fun", and if developers cater to those players you end up with a bad game borked by power creep. The Helminth is only creating more opportunity for very specific freak builds, which of course, become meta, since everyone can copy easily them thanks to the internet (let's not pretend Warframe has anything to do with skill). Which I wouldn't mind if DE hadn't started making content with such meta in mind. And suddenly you end up being very restricted in your builds in a game that in theory offers a vast array of tools, of which 98% becomes useless. Of course Helminth is only one factor in this, Incarnon weapons being a bigger one.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, trst said:

9 hours ago, supernils said:

I don't wanna dismiss the work that the great folks at DE are doing (love you and your game!). They are surely not "calling it a day" as I wrote.

But the impression still stands. Players are picking "OP" abilities and replace broken abilities. And that's an activity that happening directly in the void where DE did not do highly needed work yet. It's a bad look which I am highlighting.

What "broken" abilities? Are these genuinely worthless and non-functional, or are they for a more niche purpose or powercrept by other Helminth options? Because the latter issue is something intrinsic to giving players choice and can't be "fixed" via balancing.

I think rather than broken or niche/powercrepted we get something in the middle. Or something that is overcomplicated.

Something that has issues but but it works somehow. Something that is just weak but not just weaker than X.

3 hours ago, trst said:

Because right now the only frame I can even think of with a "broken" ability would be Limbo who's unique interaction with Overguard disables non-CC interaction in his kit.

Limbo's kit needs rework. There are issues with everything: passive, rolls and abilities.

Kullervo/1 won't teleport in some cases.

Qorvex/2 walls won't move enemies, appear in bad location.

Xaku/2 cannot disarm enemies (yeah, I just had to add this).

Dagath 1,2, 4 dependency.

Yareli/Merulina doesn't have rolls. She cannot use helminth abilities.

STyanax/4 cannot use any abilities.

Caliban/1 cannot use any abilities and it's just weak.

Dante design making it hard to change abilities (change 2-4, you are basically removing more than half of his kit). Similar with Lavos.

Exalted cannot use arcanes and some mods. They don't have exilus slot.

Passive that are just weak (50% damage resistance of Caliban...).

 

[Thorham]

I like Empower on my efficiency Exalted Blade build.

[ScytheG]

Some frames just have rather poor ability synergy.

Yareli was absolutely awful for a good while because quite literally none of her abilities meshed together, at all. Sea Snares are still a completely isolated ability, powerful, but it literally has no synergy with anything, they had to specifically give Merulina a few buffs with it but even then I doubt anyone even notices. Vulnerability is great, but since it lets every weapon do more damage you don't need to use it with any other abilities, the cast time for most of them is so slow it's probably worse anyways.

[RootyTootyAimAnShooty]

On 2024-07-04 at 3:03 PM, supernils said:

So instead of fixing plenty of useless Warframe abilities you let people slap Nourish and Roar on everything and call it a day? Is that good game design?

If meta was bad before Helminth, Helminth is only making it worse. But hey, it adds an additional layer of grind, so that's good money I guess.

I'm not sure I agree with any of this. There are plenty of warframes I've made more viable for later content with skills other than Roar.

I'm also not sure it is another layer of grind. Personally I like having the Helminth there. I've never had to go searching for materials to feed it, and I quite like being able to get rid of the normal version of a frame once I've put together the prime.

With regards to the meta - We'd have a meta either way. Some skills are just going to float to the top. Some frames have skills that just become pretty much useless at even the end of the regular star map. Being able to make them viable for longer is a good thing. It's not fun having to play the meta frame and gear just so your favourite frame(s) can be made more viable.

[sunderthefirmament]

18 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

It is not a High Fantasy setting. Themes are there only from development standpoint or player viewpoint. We got children/teens telepathicaly operating ancient humanoidal infested machines, while existing in two (or more) separate timelines. 

There is nothing sudden in it, Helminth is already established in the Lore and world and it is there long before the Segment becomes available. He eats the frames and assimilates their abilities (via DNA?) and then in turn mutates other frames with those abilities. It makes perfect sense.

Still, I think it's a little sad when a frame's (arguably) best ability can just get stapled onto every other frame.  Valkyr's Warcry, for quite a while (even now?), was her best ability, and now every frame can have it.  Sevagoth's Gloom is another example, alongside Grendel's Nourish.  More egregious is probably Hildryn's Pillage.  Don't get me wrong- I use Gloom on Garuda, Pillage on Gyre, and Nourish on Xaku.  I take advantage of this system.  And while it is arguably damaging to a frame's identity to slap a different ability onto it, it's also damaging to the frame that gives the ability up.  They still have it of course, but now it's not as special.

 

Of all those examples, I think Hildryn's Pillage is the saddest.  Hildryn doesn't really have much else beyond that.  Jade's release has made Hildryn seem that much more depressing with her extremely limited flight and woeful exalted.  But now I'm getting off topic.