[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

[Sushi_Desires]

20 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Before:

 

Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1300
Cycle 4: 1800
Cycle 5: 2500
Cycle 6: 3400
Cycle 7: 4500
Cycle 8: 5800
Cycle 9: 7300
Cycle 10: 9000

After:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1200
Cycle 4: 1400
Cycle 5: 1700
Cycle 6: 2000
Cycle 7: 2350
Cycle 8: 2750
Cycle 9: 3200
Cycle 10: 3600

= 100*(nRerolls - 1)^1.5 + 900 ?

Edited November 17, 2016 by Sushi_Desires
caret

[Keltik0ne]

Yea, the idea was terrible, the implementation is much, much worse.

 

The randomness is just creating pissed off people with mods for rubbish weapons while some are lucky enough to get a mod that does a meaningful buff to a better weapon.

It's rng for the sake of rng, some of the worse game design I've seen. 

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

20 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

RNG Mods in Warframe!?
We should certainly take some time to speak to the doom that RNG Mods being a sign of nefarious dealings. While it may pre-date many accounts, Warframe already had RNG Mods in the game. In fact RNG Mods used to be the only type of Mod you could find for Upgrading your gear. We switched to a static Mod system in Update 7, and now 12 Major Updates later we are revisiting the concept with completely different intentions: an End-Game option rather than the only path. 

Thanks for reading, stay tuned for more updates!

 

Random Variable Stats work in game such as Diablo is because it has an engaging farming grind. The boredom grind-y feeling that one get while farming for that +1 upgrade is mitigate by an option for variable difficulties. There is a consistent sense of challenge. 

For example: In Diablo, you start out farming for upgraded gear in Normal mode. When you get that upgrade, Normal mode is now easier. Hence, you can freely change that difficult to Nightmare. Find more upgrades that make Nightmare mode trivial and further increase to Hell --> Torment 1 --> Torment 2 --> ... --> Torment X ---> Greater Rifts, etc.

That's the thing that is currently missing. Warframe feels like it is ALWAYS Normal Mode. I won't speak for others, but for my feeling of farming for items that has some sense of progression in a constant easy mode is as fun as watching paint dries. I don't want to wait 40-60 minutes in an Endless mission before things get exciting. 

I am still holding out hopes that the Customize Mission that is currently under development will address this issue. Maybe how that system will be implemented will I like or dislike RNG mods.

[Brynslustafir]

The next problem that needs to be addressed is how skewed Sortie rewards are. With the number of people currently complaining of getting nothing but endo and lenses from sorties, I fail to see how the reward system could possibly be working as intended. 

It seems to me like the RNG operates in a series of steps. Like it starts at the first level of rewards, which is 2k endo and rolls a set of dice to see if it will yield. If it fails at 2k endo, it moves on to 4k endo, and so on from there.

If I'm right about this, the items near the bottom of the list are going to be much more difficult to obtain for no good reason.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Plasmaface

[NewMilenium]

Hello,

 

I'd like to add my constructive feedback to the lot that have been done here already. I'm sorry if what I'm gonna write has already been written somewhere in the 11 first pages, I read the last 2.

 

It should be obvious that giving the players such dependancy on RNG is frustrating. It has been explained tons of times. At the moment we have :

1 Riven mod for the War Within quest <-- only reliable source,

RNG => + riven mod at sortie reward. And that's all for how to get riven mods.

Then, RNG for the unveiling quest. Then RNG for the riven mod stats. Then, RNG to reroll it, at 2 moments : RNG for "do you find a kuva siphon?" then at the quest again, and at the mod stats again.

 

Some RNG is fine as long as your whole (player-)work has meaning even if you're unlucky, which is not the case at the moment. You can reroll forever a mod and have bad stats, and at some point you won't be able to farm enough kuva.

Example of solutions :

* when cycling a riven mod, the player can choose to keep 1 stat.

OR * when cycling a riven mod, the player can choose to remove 1 stat forever of the next rolls of this mod.

* current kuva siphons are a way to randomly boost the earnt kuva, but, it is a farmable resource of the fortresses.

* some high level grineers squads can spawn at ANY high level grineer location, they are fortresses-related, and can drop kuva on death.

 

Another problem has some big importance with the riven mods : the damage calculation and possibilities.

At the moment, the damage is straightforward. You can max it if you know the maths. There is no choice. And what is fun in games is to have choices to make. An example : the status is fun, because it gives another thing to consider for a weapon stat; "should I use status? which one", this IS fun. The damage isn't, you just max it.

Riven mods are cool because they add customization to the weapons and a random stat part, which is fine (to some point), but as long as the damage can just be maxed by maths, there are not enough choices.

The conditional damage and the mods like "headshot=> + crit chance while aiming for 7s", "kill=> + crit dmg while aiming for 7s" are clever and giving choices to the builds. We need more like that. 3thereal made a post on the previous page which is awesome, he proposes tons of new stats, they're clever, can be fun, and it would mean CHOICES for players.

One of the "other ways" to do damage are mods that would add direct damage instead of multiplicating the current damage, like Covert Lethality (sorry is mispelling). But this is way less effective than adding new conditional ways to make damage, new effects...

 

The quests to unveil mods are very fun. I wish you can add more different conditions, because at some point we know them all quite fast. The frustration doesn't come from those quest for many people but from the combo "big effort + result=0" of the RNG when you do a quest and unlock a totally bad mod.

 

I'd like to thank DE for that game because despite the bugs, despite some failures which are normal and human, we all have to keep in mind this is an awesome free game with TONS of content and very nice ideas being done in a short amount of time.

Players, keep in mind it's an awesome game when posting negative feedback.

Devs, let's just keep in mind that CHOICES + diversity > RNG.

 

(and if sorties could stop making us dream of reactors, catalysts & exilus...)

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by NewMilenium
correcting mistakes & adding a sentence. Swapping "someone" with 3thereal name.

[Sushi_Desires]

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

After:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1200
Cycle 4: 1400
Cycle 5: 1700
Cycle 6: 2000
Cycle 7: 2350
Cycle 8: 2750
Cycle 9: 3200
Cycle 10: 3600

Are you sure the value for iteration number 9 is correct? All of the other figures match up for the function =MROUND(100*(iteration-1)^1.5+900,50) except for number 9, which gets rounded to 3150 when rounding to the nearest multiple of 50 as in that function.

Maybe I did something wrong, though

[-SHARDS-]

21 hours ago, Machine_Head said:

excellent im looking forward to these changes but will you enable another way for riven mods to be obtained outside sorties.

as some of us (myself included) cant get a good team for sorties

 

Getting a good team won't help you much. I'm soloing all the sorties and I keep getting 2k Endo everyday, no matter what. Oh, I got a Zenurik lens yesterday, changed my life.

[Xebov]

The main question that remains for me is, when does this hotfix hit?

[RacerDelux]

1 hour ago, -SHARDS- said:

Getting a good team won't help you much. I'm soloing all the sorties and I keep getting 2k Endo everyday, no matter what. Oh, I got a Zenurik lens yesterday, changed my life.

The lens reward is just an insult. Considering that everything else on the reward table is worth 4x the cost of a lens... I don't see why sorties just reward you with a currency and you can exchange that currency for the rewards. Yea, make Riven Mods and Legendary Cores expensive, maybe it takes a full week of farming to get a guaranteed Riven (or a few days, not important right now), and maybe a few weeks of sorties to get a legendary core.

[Xebov]

1 minute ago, RacerDelux said:

The lens reward is just an insult. Considering that everything else on the reward table is worth 4x the cost of a lens... I don't see why sorties just reward you with a currency and you can exchange that currency for the rewards. Yea, make Riven Mods and Legendary Cores expensive, maybe it takes a full week of farming to get a guaranteed Riven (or a few days, not important right now), and maybe a few weeks of sorties to get a legendary core.

This was actually proposed by the devs as an idea a when Sorties first came out. Offering coins for every mission completed. I dont know why they didnt do it.

[GKDK]

Please nerf top tier riven mods stats really hard especially for Somas, simulors, tonkors etc.

Buff the low tier ALOT so they really are worth using and stand on equal grounds with top tier weapons.

Love the changes to the cycling cost now. 

Hope the kuva siphons being a guaranteed on planets with the fortress, please do not put a cooldown. Instead change the flow of the battle to make it more challenging. Like a mini boss fight with waves of Kuva guardians and without normal enemies cluttering the room it spawns. Just like the TWW end boss battle. Defeating each round will enable us to destroy one braid/hose of the siphon machine or the kuva cloud.

Maybe Orvius parts can be moved as rewards for daily challenges for Teshin. Something ridiculous like those riven mods will be nice. Failing will be like failing a MR test with 24 hour cooldown. It's his special weapon so it's fitting we get it from him and satisfy his skill test. 

Also can we have a ravenous Golden Maw pet skin pleaseeeee?

Edited November 17, 2016 by GKDK

[kingfirejet]

1 hour ago, RacerDelux said:

The lens reward is just an insult. Considering that everything else on the reward table is worth 4x the cost of a lens... I don't see why sorties just reward you with a currency and you can exchange that currency for the rewards. Yea, make Riven Mods and Legendary Cores expensive, maybe it takes a full week of farming to get a guaranteed Riven (or a few days, not important right now), and maybe a few weeks of sorties to get a legendary core.

When Riven Mods were introduced. Day 1: Unariu Lens. Day 2: Unariu Lens, Day 3: Greater Unariu Lens, and Day 4: 1000 Endo. FML RNGESUS.

[xXKhyXx]

8 hours ago, Khlamydia said:

Ivara or Loki, get a dagger and covert lethality, pick any level 30+ exterminate in the game, stab everyone in the butt while invisible. Ta da!

Seriously this is the easiest challenge out of all of them.

I assume Ash Prime would work as well?

[LethalAffliction]

All these algorithms to calculate the exponential cost yet round 8-9 increases by +450 where round 9-10 increases by +400. Ultimately breaking any exponential formula.

I doubt a formula is made I think it's a rough draft estimate or hand picked numbers. Maybe just a close example of what they were thinking.

Edited November 18, 2016 by LethalAffliction

[Xebov]

1 hour ago, kingfirejet said:

When Riven Mods were introduced. Day 1: Unariu Lens. Day 2: Unariu Lens, Day 3: Greater Unariu Lens, and Day 4: 1000 Endo. FML RNGESUS.

I had a bit more luck, however even if you get a mod, you only have a 1-2% chance for specific weapon. Its frustrating along the way.

[FlinttheImmortal]

On 11/16/2016 at 5:30 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- When Cycling a Riven with Kuva, you can now choose to "Accept" or "Decline" a Cycle result.

Some clarification is sorely needed on this point.  Can we not simply "decline" a result now, as it is, by re-rolling, provided we have the kuva?  What is meant by "a Cycle result?"  The entire roll?  Each individual stat?  By declining a result, do we get to cycle without having to perform another Challenge?   As stated, this is a meaningless "change" and provides no useful information to the community.  Furthermore, if the intention behind this change is simply to remove the Challenge phase of each Cycle, I would like to point out that this is still a "nothing" change and might as well be dispensed with.  Whether a player has to grind out a challenge between each cycle or not, make absolutely no difference when the outcome is the same - namely, a random roll.  All that is accomplished by this change is an easier, quicker random roll.  Whether you pull the lever on a slot machine every 30 seconds, or every 3 minutes, it makes no impact on the outcome of the pull.

Which seems to be, unless I am mistaken, the chief concern regarding Riven mods - the outcome of the pull.

I'm sure most of the community has seen the graphic of regular mod progression (a straight arrow) versus Riven mod progression (a circular arrow, with a random chance of getting out of the circle).  I'd like to offer another analogy concerning Riven mod progression.

Progression is climbing a hill, or a mountain.  We start to climb the mountain - we get a Riven mod (only one guaranteed from TWW), we complete the challenge to Unveil it.  We want to get more out of the mod - ideally, the most possible - so we farm Kuva.  When we actually go to Cycle the mod, with the intention of improving it, what happens?  We don't know.  It could get better - we climb a little higher on the mountain.  Or.  The mountain could suddenly turn into the bottom of a river, or a lemon, or an Acme anvil falling on our heads.  Or it could suddenly disappear altogether.

"End-game" players are supposed to by incentivized by this?  We want mountains to climb.  Not hamster wheels.

I have a hard time believing, and maybe I shouldn't, that someone at DE pitched this idea - a hamster wheel - and it actually got implemented into the game with intention of being challenging to veteran, end-game players.  Really?  I do believe someone erred in their estimation of the community.  If I were a veteran, end-game player - don't know if I qualify, actually - I'd be offended.

As Wylie Coyote says, "Well, back to the ole drawing board."

Further to that sentiment I offer the following, as a means of getting off the hamster wheel, and up the mountain.  I'm sure these have all been suggested already, but heregoes anyway:

1. Lockable stats

2. Stats that are not in conflict with a weapon type (ex. magazine size modifiers on a bow)

3. Stats that are an actual improvement over existing mods (ex. 90.6% cold damage from a Riven is not an improvement over a regular 90% cold damage mod)

Or

4. Do away with raw damage stats altogether in favor of something more interesting (ex. the list of modifiers presented earlier in this thread).

Finally, I would suggest watching Brozime's video on Riven mods.  He strays a bit beyond the realm of professionalism in his criticism, but still makes constructive suggestions.

 

[VegaTheLich]

First off, this is a great step in the right direction (assuming you either remove the -x% damage modifiers or give them a cap of 80%) and I'm glad to see these changes. I've only rerolled mods three times now but it's easily added up. 

I don't think I've seen these questions answered (not that I'm going to read through all thirteen pages of this thread before submitting this, I'm likely to forget I have this tab open for a reason and close it), but will those who have invested a lot of Kuva into their mods get the cost differences refunded? How about currently recycled, but veiled mods? Will those be revealed, or left veiled? When you decline a Cycle, is Kuva still consumed? If there's no cycling cost upon declining then there's no reason to cycle a mod more than once, maybe twice. But if the full cost is still present, there's no reason to ever decline a cycle, because it still consumes riven anyways... The only way I see this working is if it consumed some of the kuva you spent to cycle it, but not all of it. But I'm also not a game developer or designer.

 

[titan_sLAyer_]

7 hours ago, 3thereal said:

Status-speed mod would be good on melee.... but Riven mods are RIfles only ATM.

I meant buff status effect individually not with riven mods.

[titan_sLAyer_]

11 hours ago, HomShaBom said:

There's nothing that makes me want to put down a game more than knowing the fact that there's absolutely nothing that I can do as a player to match the power of another player. Sure it may take a lot of time and a lot of farming and I may never actually catch up to the high end people, but at least there was a path to get there. Keep farming mods and resources and it is at least conceivable that I could catch up to people.

With the addition of Riven Mods, that's no longer possible. I will always be weaker than other people and there's nothing I can do about it.

I'll have to see how these changes work out, but it sounds like this is still going to be a problem, just maybe not quite as bad as it currently is.

I don't mean this as a threat that I will stop playing. I'm just saying that systems like this are very discouraging to me, and I know I'm not alone. I just don't think I have the will to continue investing my time into something that will never reward me for it.

What this guy said!

There is little to almost no reward for progression in Warframe , everything sits behind an RNG wall which is kinda boring(yeah I got 2k endos 4 times in a row already)..

 

So please DE make the mods reset their stats when traded ,don't turn my favourite game into a pay to win!

[LethalAffliction]

Wouldn't it be better to have exponential decaying cost instead of exponential growth? So it tapers off to a max rather then skyrocket to infinitum at faster rates? The cost currently compounds itself by adding more cost on an already steep cost. If it costs 3200 on roll 9 it should cost say 3300 instead of 3600. It's steep as is stop multiplying it more

[Zzz-Somnus-zzZ]

TBH I don't really want the Riven mods to be buffed/nerfed. I just want the mods to be able to be cycled between weapons. 

Some weapons are meant just for mastery. Even if this was not the intention of DE, this is how the system looks like to us.

Farm for sub-par weapon > craft it > max it for mastery >sell > get a better one.

I guess this is why certain weapons are not commonly used for end-game, considering the fast-paced nature of Warframe.

 

The RNG here is maddening, not just cause Rivens buff the OP weapons by an insane amount but for me, some Rivens are meant for weapons that I've already thrown away and hardly anyone uses them. 

[R34LM]

I fully endorse the siphons to not be RNG. Firstly, if I am actively farming for it I'd like to "schedule" out my farming time. Secondly, sometimes I'd rather do a high tier mission without being bothered by siphons, especially since most of the time I never prepare for it (Ivara does not work well with guardians).

 

Also, just going to say that you guys trying to make rivens be less effective on high tier weapons and more effective on lower tier establishes that you acknowledge that there is a said tier system and would rather throw us a bandaid mod rather than just making the lower tier weapons good. Instead of giving Panthera a good riven, why don't you make Panthera worth having in the first place without it??

Edited November 18, 2016 by R34LM

[MrNonApplicable]

Will we have kuva re-reimbursed for those of us who have dolled out so much on re-rolls already?

[RacerDelux]

I honestly don't understand why they don't just allow us to lock in stats, and then change the cost of re-rolling the mod accordingly. IE, for each stat locked, it cost +1000 endo to re-roll. No more scaling based on numbers, and we still have that cost increase. But it is not exponential. That is important.

 

This also more closely following the idea that we should "be on the road to the perfect roll". Not being able to lock in stats means that there is no road, just a really confusing maze that keeps shifting on us.

[Sebastianx]

15 hours ago, Neear said:

DE wanted to get rid of the mods people always use being Serration and Split  Chamber yes but now with the Riven mods there will be people constantly looking for the base damage increase and even rerolling to aquire these mods and may even see them as mandatory just like Serration and Split Chamber. If DE decides to remove Serration and Split Chamber I don't see why the base damage increase Riven mods should stay.

People may argue its to make underpowered weapons useful but a mod shouldn't be needed as mandatory to make a weapon useful just buff the stats to get it out of mediocre area of the arsenal and nerf the meta weapons to provide players with a larger choice on the huge pool of weapons we have currently.

Good point, guess you're right, I can see the way you think, but then again, Soma/Tonkor doesn't need Damage and Multishot, they only need Crit, so should we remove the crit ones as well? Oh also Karak works wonderfully with full elemental mods, should we remove those as well?

See my point? no matter what stats you leave in the Riven mods, one weapon will always profit greatly from them. Imagine a 200% magazine size, 200% fire rate, 200% reload speed on Tonkor (slightly over the top example but should get my point across) See? it wouldn't increase the damage, but the DPS of the tonkor would skyrocket, more than with Damage + Multishot, meaning that set of stats will become the flavor for said weapon.

Min-maxing will always be a thing in RPGs, and nothing that any dev can do will stop that, the only thing they can do is give different paths for that min-maxing, but even so, without constant game changes (thankfully that's something Warframe doesn't lack) players will eventually find that PERFECT build for everything if given enough time.

The only reason they'll remove Damage + Multishot mods is because of how big of a stat increase they give in their current state, 165% dmg from Serration? of course everyone will equip it. How about if Serration was 60% ? Would people still equip it over a 90% elemental mod? Maybe, but only for flat out damage builds with no crit/status.