[Spoiler] Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 2!

[AcceptYourDeath]

9 hours ago, HyokaChan said:

I think Punch through riven modifiers should be a straight + x meters and not %, because most weapons don't even have punch through to begin with, so 1 or 100% of 0 is still 0.

Huh? :D So a regular punch through mod is a requirement if the weapon doesn`t have inherent punch through? Yeah kinda stupid :o(  

Edited November 19, 2016 by AcceptYourDeath

[Soraph]

My problem with the new system isn't the RNG when rerolling but the way of obtaining a mod itself.

Why is the acquisition linked to sorties?

I can farm as many prime parts, mods, weapons, keys... as I like, but I only get the chance of getting 1 riven mod in a day.

To date there are 40 weapons that use rifle mods -> If I want to have 1 specific mod, my chances are 1/40 * rivenmodchance.

Let's assume the chance of obtaining a riven after completing a sortie is 50% => I have to complete 80 sorties in average

That's 3 months of continued farming to get the chance of getting the chance of a good roll.

When the drop pool increases we're talking about half a year + the limitation to 15 mods forces us to discard/sell half or more of the mods we lootet.

There seem to be some easy solutions:

1) Replaying sorties gives the same chance of acquireing a riven

2) Riven mods drop randomly from bosses/stalker etc.

3) Riven mods drop randomly after beating 20 waves/minutes in high endless missions

 

 

 

 

[woah_dude]

I'll provide some more feedback in case someone actually reads it from a viewpoint of someone who has all those "bad weapons" and have them formaed and catalysted to more or less min-maxed state.

I kind a feel discouraged right now to use Riven mods or invest my time into them due to a number of reasons :

Reason #1 would be inability to lock the roll i got and work on other stats, to bring a weapon to a reasonable state. A reminder that originally Riven mods are released, because community and [DE] know that some weapons are not particularly good to say the least, which means they need a buff to their base stats (or status chance). I also have no idea what a good roll is as of yet, because we don't know the min and max values for a roll. To lock a roll might require some endo or Kuva or whatever, i don't really care what, but it should be possible, because in the end - We want to use weak/underwhelming weapons in a reasonable amount of time and current system makes it very hard to achieve.

Reason #2 The problem of weapon capacity and effectively locking down builds for possible future switcharoo's. Essentially if i want to install a Riven mod i would need to forma any weapon at least 6 times if not more and this effectively makes any weapon unable to freely switch between elementals or setups. Proposed solutions would be:

a) Riven mods cost no capacity at all, similarly to unveiled ones, even when maxed (or there is a riven mod slot similarly to exilus, but it should not be costing capacity, because guns dont have positive effects of auras) We can only equip 1 anyway and to get a decent one we need to work our &#! off ~_~

b) The rework of the way polarities work, meaning any polarized slot can be switched to any other polarity at any given time and save it across the loadouts if possible (A with 4V,  2- , 1D for example; B with 4-, 2V,  1=; etc). You still get people to buy forma bundles and leveling stuff, so you are not that hurt financially, but build diversity or experimentation would not be so painful to achieve. Additionally u can actually see an increase in Forma sales, because people would be more inclined to reforma an additional 1 or 2 slots for better stats :)

Solution (A) is a bit of  a lazy approach, solution (B) actually makes room for future prime mods or nice utility mods u would want to release in the future. We already face severe issue with locked builds and inability to fit Primed mods, so the problem is already on the horizon and worth allocating resources to.

Reason #3 is bugged Kuva siphon spawns and RNG in encountering them, but i guess its  a matter of patches and bugfixes (still, its kind a discouraging)

Reason #4 is 15 Riven mod cap. With 24 possible stats to experiment with the cap does not help at all. It means that for a mod that rolled +damage against grineer and -damage against infested +some Toxin for example there is no salvation or trial period, u just abandon it, because u can roll Damage, Multishot, Status chance or something useful. Its quite likely that eventually all the Riven mods would try to become a glorified Serration+split Chamber + Elemental/Status chance 3 in 1, but even now we effectively have to discard or re-roll those supposedly interesting mods, in favour of a universal ones, due to cap. 

Reason #5 I kind a don't care about endo refunds, but i do care about Kuva refunds. As a vet its more likely that u have tons of unused endo anyway and don't really need it , it would be nice to have a choice instead of getting back Endo when u dissolve the mod to get Kuva. 

 

I spent like 40-50k Kuva on re-rolls in general with new/old system and never saw anything particularly good and the way i see it, Kuva might become another Fissure runs, only even more infuriating due to its RNG nature. 

 

I cannot stress this enough, this was supposed to be a system for people to revisit old weapons and what we currently have is insane RNG wall in hope for a good roll to actually test a weapon against high level content. You need 5-6 runs to find a Kuva, sometimes it bugs out, costs are ever increasing and u can't lock the stats u want and its 1/24 x3 + a negative roll should not affect u horribly for a mod to be worth trying out to polarize for and even then u are still faced with hard cap of 15 mods possible. 

[Luxpluff]

Either the mods need to become way more available, or the increasing cycle costs need to go.

[Very_Melon]

Nice, the Ignis mod I got is now worse than before. Clearly Ignis is too powerful of a weapon. Thanks a lot.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

DE you really need to back burner Riven mods until damage 3.0 and a proper balance.

I'll show ya take any weapon you wish to buff like Burston Prime or Paris Prime.

Verse my Tigres Prime :

I can't even justify the 15k Endo for the last two spots because it's insta death already. Eventually i will but it's not top priority.

These Riven mods would need insanely high stat changes to keep up.

Especially the state in which your Riven system is in

A damage 3.0 and proper balance should of been first. Then have Riven mods add passives or quirks to these weapons.

I beg you not to bring this out to console in this state (since you guys said cut off is next week). ?

 

My comment from early :

[Riven mods should not of been the answer to poorly balanced weapons.]

The first problem comes from the amount of weapons always getting pumped out. Instead of pumping out new weapons all the time they could instead work on the current 100+ weapons. Then continue to release skins for the time been to keep the platinum sales going.

The next problem is the power creeping while 99% of the star map can be facerolled.

Last is the mod system and the need for a overhaul to remove the *must equip* mods. Riven mods have just made this problem worse and taken further modding choice away from us.

I always prefer mods to be passives over stat booster boring stuff lol....

120% slash < Every kill gain 1 stack of building power , every 20 kills gain unleashed power for 20 seconds increasing your damage and knock enemies to the floor with each attack.

Other ideas for passive mods :

☆ Grim Reaper :  Chance on enemy death to teleport to target. 

☆ Poison Tipped:  Add XXX poison damage per second for 3 seconds to each bullet.

☆ Adrenaline Junky : Each melee kill increases speed by 5% for 15 seconds , refreshes with each kill and stacks 10 times.

ETC ETC....

 

Just something to consider, really loving what i have seen so far outside of Riven mods (obvious reasons).  

Edited November 19, 2016 by (PS4)Mofojokers

[AcceptYourDeath]

2 hours ago, b0_on said:

I kind a feel discouraged right now to use Riven mods or invest my time into them due to a number of reasons :

I would mostly agree with everything you said. 132 on my arsenal and not keen on getting even started with riven stuff really. More like a little little and maybe? at the moment. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by AcceptYourDeath

[(PSN)Deeceem]

On 17.11.2016 at 1:30 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Kuva Cycling costs have been reduced significantly.

Before:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1300
Cycle 4: 1800
Cycle 5: 2500
Cycle 6: 3400
Cycle 7: 4500
Cycle 8: 5800
Cycle 9: 7300
Cycle 10: 9000

After:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1200
Cycle 4: 1400
Cycle 5: 1700
Cycle 6: 2000
Cycle 7: 2350
Cycle 8: 2750
Cycle 9: 3200
Cycle 10: 3600
 

 

Do the costs increase further after the 10th cycle?

If so, why? I don't quite understand the thought process behind increasing the costs in general. Even if the costs are/were lowered it ultimately will end up at a point where the costs aren't possible/reasonable to pay anymore. Thus making it a soft-limitation on how many cycles you can do, which can result in ending up in having a "bad" mod with unreasonable cycling costs attached to it. Wouldn't be slightly higher, but fixed costs for cycling be more encouraging to make continuously use of the system? Kind of compareable to how other randomly generated things work? Mod packs, relic packs, etc.? Imagine those would get increased costs everytime you buy one.

This all is obviously a redundant concern on my end, if the costs indeed stop to increase at 3600, I personally think that's okay.

Either way, thank you for your time and efforts.

Edited November 19, 2016 by (PS4)Deeceem

[RacerDelux]

Unless we are able to lock in stats, there should be no increase in cycle cost.

[Darkvramp]

Riven mods still need standardized stats, it means nothing if you have a strong disposition weapon when you can roll low as S#&amp;&#036; stats, making it useless. just as well you still need the ability to lock in stats that you like and cycle what ever is left to make the mod as you like not as RNGesus likes it.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Darkvramp
typo

[RacerDelux]

1 hour ago, Darkvramp said:

Riven mods still need standardized stats, it means nothing if you have a strong disposition weapon when you can roll low as S#&amp;&#036; stats, making it useless. just as well you still need the ability to lock in stats that you like and cycle what ever is left to make the mod as you like not as RNGesus likes it.

They should make stats the same, remove MR requirement and scale them to your MR. Adding in MR level is just a useless RNG stat that makes it harder to get what you want.

Edited November 19, 2016 by RacerDelux

[marelooke]

On 18-11-2016 at 9:38 PM, Volinus7 said:

devstream 83

"Our goal whether you agree with it or not"

"Is to give new lives to old stuffs"

Why don't you just buff the weapons? You didn't add any new weapon mechanics on riven mods, they're just constant value offsets.

They're unnecessary if you just buff weapon stats directly.

 

Weapon progression is separated and becomes staircase instead of linear because of riven mods.

Instead of previous mods that can be used on all weapons, these mods are locked with specific weapons only. If you want this specific "bad" weapon to be "good", riven is necessary right? And your effort on this specific weapon cannot be used on other weapons, this discourages people from trying to perfect various types of weapons they'd rather focus on few most powerful meta again whether riven creates new meta or not. 

Players grind mandatory mods from r-0 to max rank this is where linearity ends, next you need to climb the RNG staircase to make this bad weapon become good.

 

DE ANSWER me please why do you have to make it looks worse for players.

Which part of riven mod properties makes sense?

The monetization part.

10 hours ago, nonscience said:

Short version :

Thanks DE, this revised version is far better than the original one. Making "old" weapons usable again on high end of the game is great (was already using them anyway, but this makes them even more enjoyable).

And as for the people asking "why not just boost the old weapons?".
What's the point of boosting them? We need a ladder to climb the ranks and reasons to try new arsenal.

There's no ladder to climb, the only way to make old weapons viable is by making ranking up mean more, iow: making it massively slower so people need to use their weapons for longer than it takes to max them. Now people just buy their way to top tear gear by trading or plat and then they just grind out their MR12/13 with the OP Primes they bought, grab whatever other OP gear that was level locked and come here complaining about how other weapons aren't viable and they are out of things to do (you can do Sorties with the damn Lato, ffs, even without Riven mods).

It's something I predicted when they talked about adding Trading but at this point it's probably too late to do anything about it without massively pissing off a lot of the playerbase.

26 minutes ago, RacerDelux said:

They should make stats the same, remove MR requirement and scale them to your MR. Adding in MR level is just a useless RNG stat that makes it harder to get what you want.a

The RNG aspect of them is still a problem and needs to go. It's the only way to even start fixing the system. Anything else they do that doesn't remove the RNG stats is just pointless busywork in an attempt to placate players enough to make them put away the tar, feathers and pitchforks.

Edited November 19, 2016 by marelooke

[RacerDelux]

5 minutes ago, marelooke said:

The RNG aspect of them is still a problem and needs to go. It's the only way to even start fixing the system. Anything else they do that doesn't remove the RNG stats is just pointless busywork in an attempt to placate players enough to make them put away the tar, feathers and pitchforks.

I am ok with the RNG aspect, but they NEED to allow us to lock in stats while re rolling. That would make the RNG manageable.

[Snake]

I have to make another weapon and re-forma it in cases like amprex and torid if I'm gonna use a Riven + Primed Cryo Rounds Just for a magnetic builds.

-- Locking in a stat for re-roll is a great suggestion.

Also -- Why limit the number of riven slots - Please increase this or make it unlimited. I want to use different Rivens for different builds -- I need more slots for this.

[Darkvramp]

Remove the negative damage on riven mods, should not be a factor, in my opinion.

 

[motorfirebox]

 

On 11/16/2016 at 7:30 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

After:
Cycle 1: 900
Cycle 2: 1000
Cycle 3: 1200
Cycle 4: 1400
Cycle 5: 1700
Cycle 6: 2000
Cycle 7: 2350
Cycle 8: 2750
Cycle 9: 3200
Cycle 10: 3600

Are these numbers correct? Because they don't form any sort of pattern I can determine. Wolfram Alpha can't make sense of them, either.

[Virsalus]

9 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

 

Are these numbers correct? Because they don't form any sort of pattern I can determine. Wolfram Alpha can't make sense of them, either.

The online encyclopedia of integer sequences doesn't know it either.

[Profit62]

Riven mods for melee....fang prime needs it...along with others

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

Is it possible that we could get an item that improves our odds of getting a Riven Mod that is for the weapon equipped. You see I would love to have a Riven mod for my gorgon or my ignis (when Xbox gets the War Within), however I doubt that would happen.

[Madway7]

4 hours ago, Darkvramp said:

Remove the negative damage on riven mods, should not be a factor, in my opinion.

 

They should remove Zoom aswell

Edited November 20, 2016 by Madway7

[Darkvramp]

agree it plays almost no factor in how a gun runs, maybe if it gave the sniper multiple zoom maybe, but not jus increased zoom overall. these riven mods should be replaced with more mods that give us special effects or a special attack to weapons.

[MobyTheDuck]

My sugestions:

- Change how disposition works, instead of rolling higher or lower numbers, give priority to stats:

----> Underused weapons get priority on: Damage, Elemental Damage, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, Status Chance

----> Neutral weapons get priority on: Nothing

----> Meta weapons get priority on: Reload speed, Flight speed, Status Duration

- Make underused weapon Rivens get negative stats with lower numbers, instead of higher

- Remove useless and unwanted stats that only force people to reroll: Zoom, IPS, Faction Damage

- Either completely remove negative stats or remove negative stats that make the entire mod useless like -Damage and -Multishot

- Reduce Kuva cost by around half OR make a way to grind for Kuva without needing RNG OR add Kuva as a resource drop from the Kuva Fortress

- Balance multistats. Either give all mods 3 positive stats or increase the numbers of the stats from mods with only 1 or 2 positive stats.

- Add Riven mods to Syndicates for 125k Standing

- Add a weekly mission to Teshin that rewards a Riven Mod. Something like the Thousand Cuts alerts.

- Let us reroll single stats for an increased Kuva amount

Edited November 20, 2016 by MobyTheDuck

[Valthryn]

If you're going to implement an RNG system like this, don't make the same mistake that virtually every other MMO that I've played has made, which is to completely separate fun and progression, which seems to be the theme of all updates since Specters of the Rail and the destruction of endgame (the new endless relic changes are fine, but there's still no incentive to actually run an endless relic mission since there's no reasonable advantage compared to just extracting and coming back again, or farming trash Lith relics if you want Void Traces). Farming Kuva for cycling garbage rolls on riven mods is a pain in the &amp;#&#33;. More one shotting trash mobs while waiting for Kuva Siphons to actually show up in a mission so that you can one shot more trash mobs only to repeat the process. Implementing new progression systems as a gameplay element (perfect opportunity to revive endgame right here, since these are endgame mods) that is actually fun and engaging will justify the random RNG rolls, but as it stands, it's just annoying. Things like this are the reason that I barely, if at all, play any other MMO's any more. If multiple RNG layering and one-try-a-day progression becomes the next thing in Warframe, then DE will be doing what other MMOs do wrong after managing to avoid it for years and make a game fun, engaging, and lasting. To be honest, if Warframe had random stat rolls an all of its mods, I might not have started playing. This idea that no matter how hard you work at something you can, and are likely to, still end up with trash is what plagues the endgame of every single MMO that comes to my mind. Riven mods, right now, are exactly the culmination of that idea, but that can be changed, and Riven mods can be made into something that actually incentivizes fun, interesting gameplay, instead of just a suicide-inducing grindfest against trash enemies.

 

Here are some ideas that might work:

 

In order to make Kuva not just another grave nuisance like Kavat DNA (which you need exponentially less of compared to constant Riven mod cycling), I propose this -

 

 - Add a system to make Kuva Guardians to spawn on any planet that the Kuva Fortress is located near, giving us one set of Kuva Guardians per mission for non-endless missions (by set, I'm assuming about the amount you would normally fight when encountering a Kuva Siphon in the current system), and one set of Kuva Guardians for every rotation interval on endless missions.

 

 - Have the Kuva resource drop from Kuva Guardians specifically

 

Or

 

 - Just Make Kuva Siphons and Kuva Guardians spawn once per mission in non-endless missions and once per rotation interval in endless missions on every planet that the Kuva Fortress is near. No RNG involvement, although this method is still more annoying in my opinion than just killing the Kuva Guardians to get your resource. After all, this game is about killing things, not mining.

 

Or, My personal favorite version

 

 - Whenever the Kuva Fortress gets near to a planet, each mission node on the planet gets an additional option to run that node on the same mission type, but with the enemies starting at one of the three sortie level brackets.

 

 - These missions would either spawn Kuva Guardians that drop Kuva in the manners mentioned above, or spawn Siphons and Kuva Guardians in the manners mentioned above.

 

While we're here, two more suggestions.

 

 - With aforementioned Kuva Fortress idea, allow Riven Mods to drop from enemies on planets where the Kuva Fortress is near, at a noticeably lower drop rate than Rare mods. That way, the annoying RNG acquisition wall of Sorties is removed, and the mods are still rare.

 

And finally,

 

 - Let us CHOOSE the weapons that our Riven Mods go onto. That way, it feels justified when I put a Riven Mod on my Supra. This way, instead of thinking "God @(*()&#036; damnit why the hell did I waste my time and platinum unveiling a Riven Mod for the @(*()&#036; Supra. I wanted the Telos Boltor, F*** this Riven Mod bullS#&amp;&#036;. (Which is what happened today. Cursing and all, that's exactly what I thought)," I'll think, "Well, I already have a Riven Mod for my Soma Prime and my Telos Boltor, so I think I'll try the Supra and see if I can make that weapon viable. This should be fun."

 

This triple RNG wall business is the same thing that makes me want to throw my laptop out the window while playing every other MMO at endgame.

 

I like these ideas and think that end game players, the ones excited for Riven mods, would really appreciate this, including myself.

 

I do love Warframe and DE's responsiveness to and interaction with the community, and I like the idea of Riven mods a whole lot, but the implementation requires a grave fix, and I believe that many people would agree with this statement.

 

Another thing that I'll mention is that the mastery requirements shouldn't go up so damn high. Cap the Mastery Requirement at 13, just like the highest mastery requirement for any weapon in the game, then raise it when you release a mastery 14 weapon, then 15 and so on. As it stands, I'm not going to farm from mastery 13-15 just to use a damn Supra mod. That's absurd.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Daggerpaw1
more stuff; I added that last part

[DiabolusUrsus]

The randomness doesn't make sense to me. I mean, we just went through a hugely polarizing revision of rewards specifically aimed at reducing player RNG burnout only to add in something new with much much more frustrating RNG to it.

Acquiring new Rivens is random.

Rivens are assigned to random weapons, which the player may not even own.

Rivens are given completely random stats, some of which are completely useless for some weapon types (e.g., magazine size for bows).

Just, all this randomness that doesn't really make it more exciting or interesting, and layers on frustration.

Why are we so dead-set on introducing weapon-unique mods to convince people to use weapons? Why not just buff the weapons somewhat? Why not go back and make the weapons more interesting with new mechanics? Because of progression?

That doesn't really make sense, because progression suggests that players should be moving on from weaker weapons when they get access to stronger weapons, not going back to them. (Not that I agree with implementing a gear-based progression system when the game is balanced like a horde shooter).

Let me put it this way: You know what would make me go back to using my Pangolin Sword? If it had decent-looking PBR and wasn't a Nerf-bat (as in the actual Nerf weapons, i.e., not sharp) looking thing next to all my other weapons. Some halfway-decent stats for an Alert-Only weapon would also be nice.

Point being, I don't really see how Rivens are going to encourage players to go back to using older weapons consistently. Will it get them to try it out once or twice? Yeah, probably. Continue using them? Probably not. A single mod isn't going to close the gap between neglected weapons and the current top-tier stuff.

To top things off, how do you plan on handling it if Riven mods actually work? If you base the mod's potential power on how "popular" a weapon is, what happens when that weapon becomes popular instead of unpopular?  Are you gonna retroactively adjust the stats for what used to be the more popular weapons? That doesn't strike me as sustainable. If the Riven mods work, they are constantly going to be both overpowered and mandatory, which I thought we were going to try to move away from when it came to mods. If they don't work, what reason do veteran players have to pursue them, other than for the sake of completion?

[CorrinAvatan]

On 11/16/2016 at 6:35 PM, EmptyDevil said:

Thank you! Omg... I was getting kinda frustrated with the spawning mechanics because it was so vague.

Okay, how do I fix the fact that every time I try to reply to this thread, I'm quoting EmptyDevil?

I click in the "reply to this thread" field, and I'm auto-quoting.  Also, there seems to be no way to delete the quote box (ctrl-A and delete/backspace does nothing)