Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Shad0wWatcher]

19 hours ago, DroopingPuppy said:

No smoke without fire, sir. The thread rises when there is a problem. Actually, it is strange that wonders why it keeps raised, despite it is natural to do.

'there are still new threads about this' only proves there is a hugh problem out there. You are only eager to look away from this.

Oh no friend, i do know the problems, and i have acknowledged them and of course i want them to be fixed as a guy who's been calling Ash  my main bad boy for 4 years now. I know BS is clunkier that before and could use some massive improvements. It's just that right now i am just working with what i have in stead of constantly complaining over and over about what's broken and feedback is always a good thing. But some of these threads are just straight up complaining without coming up with a proper solution, so far the only one i keep seeing actively come up with a proper solution is @Nazrethim without trying to make the ability OP as sh*t and still making it unique to Ash himself to make everyone happy. Sadly not everyone is riding that train. Cause i would dig a stance ability that's unique to Ash and not just a straight rip-off from Excalibur and Valkyr.

I'm not looking away from it bro, i just can't come up with a solution that would make everyone happy. Which is why i'm pretty passive about this subject. If Scott ever decides to take another look at Ash, if the changes are for the better and by better i mean make it good to use on the fly and make it actually contribute to the team in some way.

Cause BS could easily be just a stance ability that also augments his first 3 abilities, heck you could even make it so that the augment mods we currently have are what happen to the first 3 abilities when you go in your stance mode, they don't even have to make a new aura, they can just use the smoke aura we currently have. But then that would also require there to be new augment mods for Ash and well...you know...with how little effort has been put into Ash's "revisit" i don't really expect much.

[DroopingPuppy]

Yeah, Ash may fine, but Bladestorm isn't.

I can't count the number my random Ash teammate shield me by smoke screen in sortie. I value its advantage heavily. Even without the syndicate mod, it is also easy to use and fit with his style - an assault backstabber.

Although it required a mod slot, but Shuriken can remove armors, and more importantly, it procs slash.

Teleport lets you to insta kill some annoying things and also allow you to rush through the enemy lines at a moment.

But... Bladestorm? I can't get the point on it. You need to mark it individually, THEN pop it. Ha, a random sniper rifle can aim and kill the enemy faster and easier. Even on the hands of Loki, who is the covert ops frame that is able to hide a long time, it is too slow to be usable. And for Ash, who needs to be strike fast and move away before the enemy can retaliate, it is not match to his style even if we ignore the fact that it is so annoying to use.

 

Someone was talk about the usefulness of syndicate mod for Bladestorm... but hey, that's just a tool for the melee combo, NOT the improvement for Bladestorm.

 

I concur that not all abilities are need to be quite good, but at least it needs to be playable. But Bladestorm is diffrent - it is just annoying, and don't give you proper rewards either. Only if it targets a small area, such as charging Tempest Barrage of Hydroid, then it is easy to pop and not become the game breaker again. But scanning the enemy individually THEN pop it is just pointless.

[ZodiacShinryu]

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

That's just because Ash has to attack everyone individually.

I know, the statement would be connected to my assumption that he attacks every first mark. It was really only an assumption because it was a feeling based on experience that I wasn't actively devoting attention to. I wasn't entirely sure so I labeled my thoughts with "I think" because of that uncertainty rather than present it as fact.

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

We had an alternative that actually solved the problem.

I am not sure what you mean. A solution to invincible enemies in finishers? Its a standard thing for finishers in general to preserve the animation. It was only a problem for Ash because he did so many constantly and if Ash wasn't going to kill the target quickly (aka disruptors and their auras). Ashs in infested (sorties) could be almost considered Limbo level trolls by the community if all they were going to do was rely on BS. There isn't a point to fix a part of finishers (that might also lead to other bugs with animations or model placements) when the problem (in practice) is that all of BS is finishers.

3 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

BS in it's current form cannot exactly be left as it is, because it's too redundant. A complete rework may solve it, but with a few tweaks it could be worthwhile using again for it's intended purpose (hint: it's not single target assassination)

Let me put it this way. I said my biggest problem with BS is that it and Teleport are too similar (by extension if you changed either one of them then I become more accepting of them both). I don't use BS to attack, I use Teleport to do that. I use BS to clean up because I get all my marks while I'm stuck in finishers from Teleport (where I can't do anything else). So lets elaborate with another's suggestion:

2 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Cause BS could easily be just a stance ability that also augments his first 3 abilities, heck you could even make it so that the augment mods we currently have are what happen to the first 3 abilities when you go in your stance mode, they don't even have to make a new aura, they can just use the smoke aura we currently have. But then that would also require there to be new augment mods for Ash and well...you know...with how little effort has been put into Ash's "revisit" i don't really expect much.

I could get behind this (though my ideas will likely push him in the OP direction). BS activates his Hidden Blades and increases Attack Speed and Casting Speed. Maybe a toggle drain or a set relatively short duration depending on how exalted you want it to go or a new Charge system where per use you get a certain number of "charges" that are expended to get the additional effects. BS also adds behaviors to his other powers. His 1 (Shuriken) could throw out more ninja tools: Large windmill shuriken that bounce around the room (small tracking), or spike tacks that stun and slow, or paper bombs for knockdowns (to be clear these ideas a separate not necessarily altogether). His 2 (Smoke Screen) could leave a smoke cloud that increases Warframe evasion for Ash and allies and/or causes enemy friendly fire (similar to radiation procs). His 3 (Teleport) gets old BS rolled in when targeting enemies. While in his power stance, power strength affects number of clones and opens teleport to a small AoE (probably small 5m base to try to avoid getting really large AoE potentials or LoS on cast for all targets). All clones and Ash use finishers on the equal number of targets in range at once.

Or we could go in a pretty, flashy, large AoE nuke. Ash and clones ninja leaps into a group on enemies with a smoke bomb with a lot of flashy slash effects and sounds, his clones popping in and out of attacks then Ash touches down and retracts his blades as the enemies suddenly explode in blood (or PG effects). The whole thing is like 2-3 secs while enemies affected are stunned though I guess that sounds more of a samurai trope. Teleport can still absorb old BS effects and animations.

[Nazrethim]

hace 1 hora, ZodiacShinryu dijo:

I know, the statement would be connected to my assumption that he attacks every first mark. It was really only an assumption because it was a feeling based on experience that I wasn't actively devoting attention to. I wasn't entirely sure so I labeled my thoughts with "I think" because of that uncertainty rather than present it as fact.

Shortly after revisit I took a Lech Krill Mars sortie (which spanws ludicrous amounts of troops during the fight) to test BS. I started to burn pizzas to mark everything there. Then I reached a cap on number of enemies. I could no longer apply marks to new enemies, but I could still do so to already marked enemies. Then I unleashed and, with Primed Fury (-33% cutscene time) it took about 46-50 seconds. Since cutscene at default speed takes about 1-1.5 seconds I estimated that BS has a 50 enemy cap (150 total marks if all 3 are applied to everyone), which means 50 to 75s of cutscene and between 7500-22500 energy (5000-15000 if invisible) required to reach it.

You can see there's sort of a problem with those numbers.

Tests on smaller groups yielded the same results.

Cita

I am not sure what you mean. A solution to invincible enemies in finishers? Its a standard thing for finishers in general to preserve the animation. It was only a problem for Ash because he did so many constantly and if Ash wasn't going to kill the target quickly (aka disruptors and their auras).

I mean that if enemies had a cap of 3 strikes the problem would have been easily solved without crippling the ability.

The "gets stuck on disruptors and eximus" was actually good design, I will explain later why.

Cita

Ashs in infested (sorties) could be almost considered Limbo level trolls by the community if all they were going to do was rely on BS. There isn't a point to fix a part of finishers (that might also lead to other bugs with animations or model placements) when the problem (in practice) is that all of BS is finishers.

And that's a problem with the player, not with the spell itself. It was also fueled only by efficiency or infinite energy generators, as BS had a cost of 100 and a 18 target cap, which was a reasonable cost for it's effect.

Observation: Old BS had an 18 attack cap, 100 energy divided by 18 is about 5.5 per strike. Compare to current 15. And the attacks were split between Ash and his clones, so Ash got to see only 1/3rd of the cutscenes (Unless an eximi or disruptor was involved).

DE is fond of putting visual, audio or just plain mechanical cues on how to play the game instead of explanations. Let's compare:

Pre-revisit BS mechanics:

-Marks instantly large groups of enemies but has a limited cap, this points towards an emergency nuke when situation is dire or a "clean up" tool once the elite enemies have been dispatched

-"Elite" enemy units (disruptors, eximus, juggernauts) are nigh inmune to it, this points towards BS being a "grunt sweeper" rather than an all purpose kill'em'all tool.

-"Elite" enemies being tagged lock player in cutscene, while keeping a potentially deadly enemy alive projecting a harmful aura. You can look at this as a spam punishment.

So this all gives you the way to use it: Dispatch elite enemies first trough other means (shuriken, teleport, weapons) then Blade Storm to clean up the grunts. The mechanics tell you exactly what is the best way to use it. Why did players mindlessly spam? because most Bladespammers of the time were idiots who couldn't play for s**t and because Power Efficiency allowed them to. Power Efficiency is a broken stat, that is no secret, but DE can't quite nerf it due to the player backlash (despite doing so being a good thing for the game).

Now compare to current BS:

-Sepia tones: this points towards the marking mode NOT being Ash's default state.

-Slightly muffled audio and an audio cue when it's active: again, points towards marking mode not being default state.

-Large mark cap: this poitns the player to mark as much as possible before unleash.

-Multimark that is best effectively done by wiggling the camera over enemies in a frenzy.

This all points towards the "Turn on>Wiggle to Mark on as many as possible >Unleash" style, yet the "best" way to use it is the opposite: turn it on all the time and use it to clean up the enemies you didn't bother to kill in the first place trough other means. The mechanics don't quite match the cues. The ability is also very slow to deal with large number of marks, again, this is in contrast to it's mechanical cue to mark as much as possible.

 

Theres also how power stats interact with the ability, namely Range and Efficiency.

Pre-revisit: Range is entirely optional, you could choose to have more range to make easier to mark large spread out crowds at the increased risk of accidentally marking a resistant enemy, or you could play at default or even reduced range to get more control over what you blade storm at the cost of marking potential. Efficiency is entirely optional as the ability cost is reasonable relative to it's power and mechanics.

Mark Storm: Range is pointless as 50m is big enough for most of the game's content, it wasn't until Plains of Eidolon was released that it sort of became a niche stat to increase. Efficiency is flat out mandatory because not even a 33% invisibility cost reduction can counter a 200% increase in cost per attack. The ability also requires at least +75 to 100% increased melee attack speed to be remotely viable to wipe groups of grunts and can never counter respawn times to give the player breathing room.

Cita

Let me put it this way. I said my biggest problem with BS is that it and Teleport are too similar (by extension if you changed either one of them then I become more accepting of them both). I don't use BS to attack, I use Teleport to do that. I use BS to clean up because I get all my marks while I'm stuck in finishers from Teleport (where I can't do anything else). So lets elaborate with another's suggestion:

As I said: Redundancy.

Cita

I could get behind this (though my ideas will likely push him in the OP direction). BS activates his Hidden Blades and increases Attack Speed and Casting Speed. Maybe a toggle drain or a set relatively short duration depending on how exalted you want it to go or a new Charge system where per use you get a certain number of "charges" that are expended to get the additional effects. BS also adds behaviors to his other powers. His 1 (Shuriken) could throw out more ninja tools: Large windmill shuriken that bounce around the room (small tracking), or spike tacks that stun and slow, or paper bombs for knockdowns (to be clear these ideas a separate not necessarily altogether). His 2 (Smoke Screen) could leave a smoke cloud that increases Warframe evasion for Ash and allies and/or causes enemy friendly fire (similar to radiation procs). His 3 (Teleport) gets old BS rolled in when targeting enemies. While in his power stance, power strength affects number of clones and opens teleport to a small AoE (probably small 5m base to try to avoid getting really large AoE potentials or LoS on cast for all targets). All clones and Ash use finishers on the equal number of targets in range at once.

We think similarly, though I'm more of the stance ultimate focused on Finishers, special combos (with nigh useless by comparison Basic E-spam combo or slide attack) and Duration based as a way to tell the player "you aren't supposed to be in super mode all the time" and to spite Fleeting Expertise.

Since my ideas are very long to post here, I will just leave you a link to a soon-to-be-archived thread:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Cita

Or we could go in a pretty, flashy, large AoE nuke. Ash and clones ninja leaps into a group on enemies with a smoke bomb with a lot of flashy slash effects and sounds, his clones popping in and out of attacks then Ash touches down and retracts his blades as the enemies suddenly explode in blood (or PG effects). The whole thing is like 2-3 secs while enemies affected are stunned though I guess that sounds more of a samurai trope. Teleport can still absorb old BS effects and animations.

Like Judgment Cut End? (watch slower to fully apreciate it)

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Nazrethim

[Eljureo]

I would rework 4 to be more active Messa style stabathlon, where you have to aim for your next target while stabbing at current target. Damage immumity would only activate if you have a target going.

[Nazrethim]

hace 1 hora, Eljureo dijo:

I would rework 4 to be more active Messa style stabathlon, where you have to aim for your next target while stabbing at current target. Damage immumity would only activate if you have a target going.

The problem with that is that camera angle (cutscene or not) would make it even more clunky. Mesa can use it because she stays in place while doing it. Ash personally goes to kill.

[ZodiacShinryu]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Like Judgment Cut End? (watch slower to fully apreciate it)

I suppose yes. I wasn't thinking of DMC in particular when I was detailing it but Vergil does illustrate it quite nicely.

[Somi_xD]

@Nazrethim

Another idea i had is:
- making BS-Markmode a small area around Ash (Let's say 5m-10m radius, affected by range mods)
- limit marks to 1 per enemy, cost per mark 10 energy but is not affected by invisibility
- Marks need a kind of reward for this cost:
  ~ Marked enemies suffer a Radiation proc for the first 3 seconds (marks stay after the rad proc is gone)
  ~ or enemies suffer a elemental proc of the Melee weapon that is equipped
(here would be important - the proc is toggleable, are can be switched on and off on the ship)
- Ash splits the kills between him and his 2 clones
(- BS gets bonus dmg from Combo Multi (it should be a fixed small amount, 2x = 200 finisher dmg, 3x = 300 finisher dmg, and so on) not a must-have)

How it works:
You mark every enemy who gets in your Markrange, this would work great with Teleport, and also benefits the fact, that Ash is a melee frame.
You would think, that the cost reduction in smokescreen is a good synergy - but i really feel more like "forced" to use smoke screen to make Bladestorm not a total Energy eater.
About the proc effect:
1. I thought the radiation proc would synergize good with teleport (even without invisibility), it distracts enemies around you, and so you can use it much safer.
2. Another idea would be to not give a fix proc type but make it rely on the weapon, this would make it more flexible and you could modify it as a small CC.
    I would say, that the duration of the proc is affected by duration and range mods(the higher the range the less effective the proc will be) (?)
3. BS doesn't work as a stealth ability, and also gets no benefits from stealth - but for people who still want mark enemies while playing stealh, the CC proc  should be toggleable.

Ash splits the kills between him and clones reduces the time you stuck in BS about 2/3 of the time.
And BS Bonus dmg from Combo Multi compensates the "loss" of the muli-marks

Edited January 31, 2018 by Somi_xD

[Nazrethim]

hace 20 minutos, Somi_xD dijo:

@Nazrethim

Another idea i had is:
- making BS-Markmode a small area around Ash (Let's say 5m-10m radius, affected by range mods)
- limit marks to 1 per enemy, cost per mark 10 energy but is not affected by invisibility
- Marks need a kind of reward for this cost:
  ~ Marked enemies suffer a Radiation proc for the first 3 seconds (marks stay after the rad proc is gone)
  ~ or enemies suffer a elemental proc of the Melee weapon that is equipped
(here would be important - the proc is toggleable, are can be switched on and off on the ship)
- Ash splits the kills between him and his 2 clones
(- BS gets bonus dmg from Combo Multi (it should be a fixed small amount, 2x = 200 finisher dmg, 3x = 300 finisher dmg, and so on) not a must-have)

If it's a radial, why have mark mode at all? You could just make Ash start it instantly on surrounding enemies.

While I think the Marking System can be salvaged, I also think it should be Ash's second passive and works with all of his abilities, rather than being limited just to blade storm.

[Somi_xD]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

If it's a radial, why have mark mode at all? You could just make Ash start it instantly on surrounding enemies.

This would only work if only the clones attack. It would already start as soon one enemy comes into your range - this could work, but you would only see infinit energy Ashes running around stupidly or teleporting from place to place.
The point behind my idea is, that it would be still "pretty easy" implemented, give BS a CC use, syergize with his melee theme and make it compatible with Teleport.

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Nazrethim:

While I think the Marking System can be salvaged, I also think it should be Ash's second passive and works with all of his abilities, rather than being limited just to blade storm.

I know and i do support the Marking system as a passive as well, but you know DE, if there will be second look into Ash, they won't make huge changes.

[DroopingPuppy]

What about this?

-First mark an area same as Tempest Barrage. After mark it, Ash creates a half-dozen of mirror images of himself and the images makes melee attack against the enemy within the area like Manic does for x sec then it expires.

[(PSN)teacup775]

I love the idea of an assassin frame and i love ash when i want to just murder solo this way. However, blade storm really feels dull. Looks cool for about 5 minutes but dull slow watching the take downs.

The marks are fine but tbh i’d prefer popping the trigger to involve a melee button slash dash mechanic for the drones.  That way, i  don’t have to nap while the main event is happening and i could control the pace. A team damage buff on marks would be cool too.

Compare to sleep mode with banshee, ember or mesa. 

[[DE]Rebecca]

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

[xXDeadsinxX]

1 minute ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

Looks really good of a rework for his Bladestorm! I like it!

[NullusvultLatine]

2 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

*Loses it*

[Kaotyke]

You will be able to opt-out of the Cinematic!

Praise Booben!

Edited January 31, 2018 by Kaotyke
Praise Booben!

[SanderRandorm123]

В 27.01.2018 в 23:30, (PS4)CoolD2108 сказал:

So your definition of liking something is changing it untill it's something completely different?... 

as player from closed beta i have emotional relationship with all frames, how funny and cringy it sounds, why is that dumb to wishing a frame being useful mostly than right now, Ash is more ninja designed than any frame in game really, but his BS the most slow and boring thing, even being a pool as Hydroid is more fascinating than trying get kills with BS. Im not crying over old 4th ability, it was boring too, but this one is complete usless, we have a lot weaponds and frames that killing high lvl faster, and "choosing another thing" not a way to play this game, i heard Developers gonna rebalance all old weapons, w\e they tryed with riven mods do that and yet still not helping, we just fapping on top 10 weapons and slap on it papper tag "FUN", i refuse think that you can just leave this "dead horse", forgetting a problem - not resolve whole issue.

Edited January 31, 2018 by SanderRandorm123

[BaSiLB]

that looks awesome. 

[TheOlright]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

I dunno, all this "marking" business is just... meh. After rework I played Ash just once, tried it and understood I get annoyed, and never played it since. Maybe you can find some compromise for old farts, like me, who liked old Ash 4rth mechanic, and for ppl, who like new "marking" stuff?

[Pyus]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:

 

Marking targets is still a pain that involves jiggling the mouse like crazy. Suggestions: 

1 - Make the mark a frontal cone (like Mesa's) that decreases in radius each time a target is selected 

2 - Make marking an 20m AOE globe that marks targets inside of it every .5 seconds, so it can move around ash as he moves. 

I just really hate jiggling my mouse all over the place trying to mark the same target 3 times, when I could just pew pew them. Thanks 

[Miser_able]

5 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

So does it mark all enemies in a radius at once now? 

[SanderRandorm123]

Только что, AizenIchi сказал:

*Loses it*

...wait
i think i made a mistake,i didnt seen any information about that

[(PSN)ctcjoe19]

6 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

I like the new blade storm ability, what about Atlas what did DE change with him?

[KelsierSurvivor]

This could turn me into something of an Ash main... 

Spoiler

Heck no. Nothing will ever beat Volt in my book. But seriously, there's nothing wrong with maining multiple frames, right? I have a friend that mains Mesa, Titania, and Nidus. I do Volt and Octavia, so Ash might be added soon! :D This looks amazing!

 

[SanderRandorm123]

Только что, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

Oh
my
god
Im so sorry, i didnt knew about it U:>