Nidus discussion Post Devstream 84

[--RV--Meta]

Hello fellow Tenno, and greetings to DEclaus.

For Christmas this year, DE would like to give us a nice, gift-wrapped Infested frame to play with. I watched the game play, and I am aware that work is still being done on the little guy, but I still have a few things I'd like to see from our new..."furry" friend (That's not hair!).

BEHOLD THE LIST!!!

Nidus

Generally

• Should share base weaknesses and resistances with your average Infested unit, with Tenno tweaks for improved survivability and combat aptitude, so decent resistances to phys and elem dmg across the board with caveats next to Slash and Fire, which will be moderate weaknesses

On the Subject of "Adaptation Stacks"

• Should change his behaviors...a lot!
• Should grant increased movement speed, jump height, bullet jump effectiveness, and wall cling duration with more Stacks
• Should increase melee strength and speed and grant some health leech upon killing enemies with melee as you gain more Stacks
• Should reduce primary and secondary recoil, and also reduce accuracy or alternately reduce dmg with more Stacks
• Should increase Power Strength, Range (slightly) and Casting Speed, but reduce Power Efficiency and Duration (slightly) with more Stacks

On the Subject of MAXED "Adaptation Stacks"

• Should be a bigger deal, with more pronounced changes!
• Normal melee attacks should impart a guaranteed Toxin proc, killing enemies with a normal charged attack makes them explode with a Toxin AoE
• Channeled melee attacks should impart a guaranteed Viral proc, killing enemies with a channeled charged attack makes them explode with a Viral AoE
• Ground slams should create small Infested pools from which 1 or 2 weaker Maggots spawn and attack enemies close by, but die after a few seconds
• ^Alternately, a ground slam should have a small Infested Tendril pull in any enemies within a few meters
• Bullet Jumps should impart a guaranteed Toxin proc and/or leave a trail of Toxic clouds in their wake for a few seconds (similar to Infested Drones)
• Should MAYBE be unable to use Primary and Secondary weapons with MAXED Stacks, or just suffer more pronounced penalties while using them, like a longer holster time and reduced reload speeds
• With MAXED Stacks, Nidus should gain IMMUNITY to Impact dmg (not procs), very high resistance to Puncture dmg, and a more pronounced weakness to Slash dmg
• With MAXED Stacks, Nidus should gain IMMUNITY to any elemental dmg (once again, not procs) that isn't Fire (to which the weakness will be pronounced), and also ABSORB any incoming Toxin (high), Viral (medium), or Radiation (low) dmg done to him, and also be immune to their procs (Tox, Vir, Rad)

On the Subject of Warframe Abilities and Relation to "Adaptation Stacks"

• The first ability "Rupture" should track and seek enemies in a cone of its path, and this effect should be more pronounced with increased Stacks (IE at 0 Stacks, it will lazily track enemies pretty much directly in front, at MAXED Stacks, it will aggressively seek all enemies within its cone)--at MAXED Stacks, there should be additional Infested waves generated by the ability, which travel out to either side of the main wave
• The second ability "Tendril" should chomp on enemies that it catches, gathering life from them as it does, and with more Stacks, it should chomp faster and leech more health, which it imparts to Nidus upon expiring OR alternately if Nidus gets close to it--at MAXED Stacks, the Tendrils should sprout Flagella, which will ferociously whip any enemies that get sucked in or otherwise approach too close to the Tendril Pod
• The third ability "Symbiotic Link" should have its name changed to "Parasitic Link," and also it should actively draw health out of the victim and into Nidus over time, with additional Stacks imparting a stronger Link on the victim, granting it (and Nidus) increased dmg resistance for the duration of the ability--at MAXED Stacks, the Link should Infest the Victim, forcing it to follow and fight for Nidus for the duration of the effect (basically a single SotD with increased survivability)
• The ultimate ability "Infest" can only (at the time I'm typing this) be used with MAXED Stacks...but I'd like it if, after the Maggots kill all enemies near the Infestation, they will return to Nidus and grant him health and additional armor for each Maggot that survives to do so, with Maggots who make successful kills imparting additional health and armor

ULTIMATE POSSIBILITY

There has been some talk that maybe 4 Stacks won't/shouldn't be required to cast the Ultimate, and it will instead rely on how much energy you have but also utilize the Stacks to give buffs to the Ultimate, in which case I'd suggest that if the Operator does take the time to gain additional Stacks, they change the behavior of the Ultimate Ability in the following ways:

• No Stacks: Ultimate behaves normally, as we saw in the game play of Devstream#84 with my above tweaks/suggestions added
• 1 Stack: Maggot Swarm -- Number of Maggots spawned is multiplied by 4x
• 2 Stacks: Violent Infestation -- x4 Maggots have increased health and dmg, and Flagella spawn in the Infestation pool, and ferociously whip any enemies unfortunate enough to be too close
• 3 Stacks: Infestation Station -- Enemies caught within the radius of the Ultimate are converted to/replaced by their Infested forms, enemies without Infested form are replaced by a random Infested unit of the same Faction (Grineer = Infested Grineer type, Corpus = Infested Corpus type, Infested enemies just become allies if they're in range, Bosses and special enemies are immune, of course) and they fight for Nidus for the duration of the mission
• MAXED Stacks: The Juggernaut -- You summon a Juggernaut to fight for you, but there can be only one! (at a time, per Nidus, IE 4 total in regular missions, 8 total in Trials). Recasting the Ultimate while your Juggernaut is out will refill its health by a set percentage per Stack, recasting with NO Stacks will unsummon the Juggernaut but add its remaining health to your own and the overflow will be added as additional armor, recasting with MAXED Stacks will pull the Juggernaut to your present location, fully restore its health, and give both it and Nidus temporary invincibility

That's all I've got for now. With those additions/changes/tweaks/specifications, I feel like Nidus will act more like a force of evolution and change, allowing the Operator to adapt their play style as Nidus adapts to his environs. I personally like the idea of the critter becoming basically a terrifying whirlwind of berserk melee attacks with shocking speed as he releases his Infested inhibitions...kind of like the Tasmanian Devil in ye olde cartoons.

Whadda ya think, Tenno compatriots?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Meta_Nexus
Got merged twice? Added and changed some stuff- THE MERGING IS COMPLETE!

[Tesseract7777]

Nidus seems like he is here just to be here, kind of like Atlas was at first before any scaling. His powers seem lackluster, no shields but nothing but a tiny amount of passive health regen. Someone suggested perhaps having the health regen increase with each stack on infestation? That might make him more viable. 

Also, his (2) is like... cc, and that's it, and his (4) is cc with some damage, but seems more focused on cc. So, redundant much? His four seems to take way too much build up for way too little return. Maybe I am missing something important here, but you have to get all these stacks to create his ult, and while it's cool and all, it doesn't seem that amazing compared to a lot of other ults. Which don't require that kind of buildup. 

If his ult is going to require that kind of buildup, it needs to have something more to it. Right now it just feels lackluster for what it is. The first ability is pretty cool, and the mechanics are sort of a cool idea, but I feel like the original Atlas it is missing a LOT. It feels like a filler frame they put together quickly so they would have another before Bard because Bard is taking so long. Maybe they plan to add a lot more, but right now it just feels incomplete, boring, lackluster. 

I don't know... I want to like the idea, I feel like the infestation stacks thing has potential. But right now the buildup you go to isn't worth the effort, their isn't enough health regen. And considering the kind of frame he is, there is not enough synergy in his ability set. In fact there is already too much redundancy. I would say all his abilities should do something special, or have some kind of bonus, if they are used in an area infested by his maggots or what have you. 

He needs a lot. Right now he is a bore that most people will shelve after master. 

[bluepheonix13]

7 hours ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

The Warframes have been mentioned to be made from infestation in a number of occasions.

7 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

Titanias quest states that technocyte-bioengineers worked of warframes and there is that whole infested resources (plastids/nanospores) used to craft them. 

 

So yeah,  there is more than eough evidence to say they are created from infested material

Infested yes, Technocyte no. There is not a single instance of lore in Warframe mentioning the Technocyte virus, because that is Dark Sector lore.

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, Xekrin said:

There's a mod for that, and if anyone is going to passively resist toxin damage, it'd be saryn.

Scott already mentioned during the stream they were going to tweak how this worked, combining energy and stacks prereqs.

---

Overall your suggestions are fairly sound except they did nearly the same with Inaros.  He has a ton of ways to get health and does barely any damage with said abilities.  I'd rather not have another inaros, his 4 currently (as of the small amount we saw in the stream preview) may be the only strong way to regen health but we haven't played him ourselves yet. 

We only saw Rebecca play him for 5 minutes and that was spotty at best, they mentioned a few times that one or two of his abilities weren't completely finished and we were seeing only the basics and not everything he can do.  Which is why its best to just wait.  Yes you can give feedback on what you saw, and they will definitely take it into consideration but there are parts that could play way differently once you experience it yourself.

You say this ability does this but it should do that and they are thinking 'well this person didn't know about this or this so he doesn't realize that that and this happen when using it'  Upon initial observations its easy to miss things just because you would play him differently than rebecca.  Also its unrefined at best, missing pieces that they know exist but couldn't show us.

Also, keep in mind they build abilities around minmax mods so just because it looks slow or has little damage as base it will take mods to make it actually useful.  A problem with a lot of abilities to be honest, and something I wish didn't happen.  Saryn's range is a great example, absolutely pathetic at base, barely decent with normal mods, and great if you push it past 200% sacrificing other stats as you do so.

I want this frame to be awesome too so I would love to see a lot of your suggestions in game, I just think the majority of them would make him quite OP and its unlikely to even be close to your vision.  If you expect the abilities to work how you think they should then you will be disappointed by the real thing 100% of the time.

I suggested toxin resist because of his theme. It's not my fault his kit is a lot like inaros. I did comb the footage several times I doubt I missed anything. if thats true then they need a new way to show case new frames. unless they are not looking for feedback till post launch. then that should be made clear.

[Xekrin]

18 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

unless they are not looking for feedback till post launch. then that should be made clear.

nah they've always made it pretty clear they do want feedback.  I see where you're coming from too.  Just because I would wait doesn't mean everyone has to.  We just don't have all the facts so not taking every detail to heart would be the safer bet.  Of course not everyone likes to play it safe.

I hope they take your feedback and everyone else's and use it to make the frame be as great as it can be before its release.  Better now while its being actively worked on than later when its released.  Anyway apologies for bashing you for taking the time to help get it right.

[IggySnow]

His symbiotic link should give a huge buff to the enemy you link with and should also make it fight for you instead of just put it to sleep. like its actually infesting the thing you linked with.

[Darkneblade_TR]

abilities seems kinda pointless against sorties you will die within a split second like you are mere a paper

[Aeon94]

I just wanted to share a few ideas for upcoming Infested Frame :)

Adaptive Carapace ( Passive ) -

• The evolution gauge can be filled by 10 Adaptation Points, resetting upon completing 1 Adaptation Stack with the center of the gauge displaying the next stack number; up to 3 Adaptation Stacks can be attained.
• Nidus can heal himself overtime ( Heals rapidly while on creep ).
• While Nidus fully evolved ( 3 stacks ) , he gets 10% damage bonus and 10% movement speed ( These effects are doubled while on creep ). 

Creep = Infested Terrain

Infest ( Ultimate ) - 

• Nidus spends an Adaptation Stack and places a Nest that spawns 5 Maggots and spreads creep around itself ( Max 3 Nests ).
• Placing a Nest when reached to Nest limit causes oldest one to get destroyed. ( Oldest creep area disappears too ).
• Creep spread speed is 5m/s.
• Creep spread duration 5 sec.
• Nest and Creep lasts for 30 sec.
• Maggot damage and number of Maggots are affected by Power Strength.
• Creep spread speed and duration are affected by Power Duration.
• Creep radius is affected by Power Range.

Feel free to share your opinions :D

Edited December 11, 2016 by Aeon94

[Zhoyzu]

why not just name him Ultralisk and be done with it?

[(XBOX)BroaderSaucer]

you must place that on creep!

[BaIthazar]

we require more vespine gas

[Helch0rn]

3 hours ago, bluepheonix13 said:

Infested yes, Technocyte no. There is not a single instance of lore in Warframe mentioning the Technocyte virus, because that is Dark Sector lore.

 

Wrong

The Description of Nanospores literally States " Fibrous technocyte tumor. Handle Infested tissue with caution"

 

and If you take the information of the "ask a Cephalon"-section as canon (which I do because it is written by DE Staff)

Quote

NikodemosTheMan Asks: Dear Cordylon, are Infested edible?

Due to the unique nature of Technocyte tissue there is a higher statistical probability that Infested flesh will begin to consume and assimilate organic life from within rather than be digested. This is because most organic beings do not contain the proper natural immunity to its infectious nature.

You are not the first being to question whether or not the Infested can be consumed, but documented history shows that us that Infestation is best eradicated rather than experimented with:

• Case # 324: Grineer Captain Vek Th'ow succumbs to Infestation after trying to crush an unusually small Infested Charger with his boot.
• Case #567: A Corpus research vessel is overwhelmed with Infestation after discovering an abandoned smuggler ship containing contaminated credits. Vigorous application of antibacterial soap did not seem to have any slowing effect.
• Case #132: A New Loka survey expedition perishes after collecting what they believed to be 'excellent quality moss'. Their bodies were recovered, mostly consumed by Infestation. No trace of moss was evident.
• Also See: Alad V.

Quote

Dhrekr Asks: Delicious Cordylon, what is the sound of a Cephalon's thoughts? I always assumed it's some sort of humming, but I could be wrong.

Delicious? This is an unusual greeting.

As I am made up almost entirely of data the list of reasons why oral consumption is not advised is extensive, but I am curious as to what inspired this particular word selection. In ancient times many less advanced cultures believed that consuming their enemies would bring them power. Such practice has been proven to bear no satisfactory results -- with broad exception given to Technocyte Infestation.

To answer your inquiry: Cephalon do not produce audio frequencies when processing information, or 'thinking'.

I also recommend submitting yourself to processing that you may be properly scanned and…treated for any potential breach of Infestation that may have occurred aboard your landing craft. I can assure you, such an investigation would be quite painless.

 

[Aeon94]

1 hour ago, Zhoyzu said:

why not just name him Ultralisk and be done with it?

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)BroaderSaucer said:

you must place that on creep!

1 hour ago, BaIthazar said:

we require more vespine gas

StarCraft jokes

[BaIthazar]

5 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

StarCraft jokes

well to be honest, a lot of the mechanics for your ult suggestion sound like they could have been copied straight from starcraft

Edited December 11, 2016 by BaIthazar

[NinthAria]

10 minutes ago, BaIthazar said:

well to be honest, a lot of the mechanics for your ult suggestion sound like they could have been copied straight from starcraft

In all fairness, there's a lot of similarities to the Zerg in the version DE's presented as well. And just in the Infested in general. It's bound to happen when they're both running on similar themes (i.e. highly adaptive organic infestation).

Still, considering how far along Nidus seems to be in the development process, I think it's probably a little too late to be suggesting full-scale kit ideas.

[Aeon94]

1 hour ago, BaIthazar said:

well to be honest, a lot of the mechanics for your ult suggestion sound like they could have been copied straight from starcraft

It's actually WIP Nidus Ultimate's more interactive version with Molecular Prime/Polarize treatment ( range and duration affects spread ). Infested on both games have an addiction with " spreading their sh*t " so i don't see an issue here ;D

And yes i know " Creep " sounds so StarCraft-ish but its easier than type " infested terrain " :T

Edited December 11, 2016 by Aeon94

[ExaltedHysteria]

It'd be cool if when he's downed and bleeding out, you don't actually sit there waiting to be revived/die but rather have a few seconds to find an enemy and idk 'consume' them to grant back health or extend the bleed out timer until you've 'consumed' enough enemies to grant back your full health etc.? (maybe there'd be onscreen effects - like a psychedelic looking infested viewpoint since you're like in 'consume' mode or something - maybe Nidus would look more super infested/creepy?).

it could account for larger difficult where health pool and the Regen rate isn't enough, idk just a thought I had.

[Aeon94]

1 hour ago, NinthAria said:

In all fairness, there's a lot of similarities to the Zerg in the version DE's presented as well. And just in the Infested in general. It's bound to happen when they're both running on similar themes (i.e. highly adaptive organic infestation).

Still, considering how far along Nidus seems to be in the development process, I think it's probably a little too late to be suggesting full-scale kit ideas.

I know full-scale kit change is impossible at this point but u know they must change how Ult works cuz its not spammable and requires " 4 stacks ". Cast time , damage and CC don't seem impressive at all :(

[METAL_BAWKSES]

Nidus play style seems to be all about ramping up and maintaining a level of momentum once you have a few stacks. I don't think the footage captured that and that's why he looks underwhelming after watching his game play. 

[PsiWarp]

Although not all variables are known, some powers do sound underwhelming. It would be good to have some more CC and healing effects for Nidus via using his powers.

1. Rupture - staggers enemies on hit with a chance to proc Viral.
2. Tendrils - also grabs Maggots if they are scuttling about, helping them find a big ball of enemies to chew on.
3. Symbiotic Link - a percentage of damage from any source dealt to the host also heals Nidus.

Can't think of anything for Infest, though if allies on the infested ground also get fast HP regen that would be helpful.

[Aeon94]

1 hour ago, PsiWarp said:

Although not all variables are known, some powers do sound underwhelming. It would be good to have some more CC and healing effects for Nidus via using his powers.

1. Rupture - staggers enemies on hit with a chance to proc Viral.
2. Tendrils - also grabs Maggots if they are scuttling about, helping them find a big ball of enemies to chew on.
3. Symbiotic Link - a percentage of damage from any source dealt to the host also heals Nidus.

Can't think of anything for Infest, though if allies on the infested ground also get fast HP regen that would be helpful.

Rupture should deal guaranteed puncture proc too imo ( with those spikes )

" Rupture - reduces health of enemies by 50% and weakens them by 30% "

Sounds awesome :Q

Edited December 11, 2016 by Aeon94

[Phyrak]

13 minutes ago, Aeon94 said:

Rupture should deal guaranteed puncture proc too imo ( with those spikes )

" Rupture - reduces health of enemies by 50% and weakens them by 30% "

Sounds awesome :Q

If multiple of his 2/tendril are out - having a rotation with such things flailing and bleeding would be a nice mix too

Nidus seems to be lacking in a few departments

He certainly needs a heap more damage

A mix of toxin, bleed, puncture and viral procs that scale with his passive secondary resource would be nice

Also, a little energy regen as to gain energy when foes are cc'd because rage can't work when you're not being attacked and the map is cc'd

Perhaps these to scale with the infestation level?

Just some thoughts

[Domesticon]

Happy to see this spurned a lot of discussion and was eventually made the defacto megathread. I figuired I'd share some additional thoughts that I had after thinking things over for a bit.

1. The "Infested Stacks" that are not officially named yet should be called Biomass in my opinion. This makes sense due to the abilities that are used to charge it. The 1 and 4 namely. With how the abilities work it could be taken as he's in a sense eating the enemies he uses the abilities on, adding to his own internal biomass.

2. I've heard a lot of suggestions for him to spawn better Infested when he has more stacks, I still would prefer my approach to it, but if that does not happen, I can fully agree to that idea, the usefulness of the maggots is questionable right now.

3. This one isn't entirely about the frame, but is anyone else really curious what weapons he'll come with? Infested weapons are always fascinating so I wonder if we'll get even more with it.

4. How will Range affect the First ability? Will it only make it longer or will it make it longer and wider?

[_Iye]

I will very simple here, lets just go with the stacking feature for his first 3 abilities but the 4th ability as an ultimate just doesn't make any sense. Its an ultimate of a warframe and do we have to stand right there to get the hp regen? I'm saying this cause of the very poor regen rate what's shown, I know with stacking it can get more higher but without shields and poor health level and in the mid of hordes how much viable his ultimate will be? Maggots are slow as well to pick up enemies so its all time consuming and to me so far its a poorly designed mechanic which needs a change or replacement.

If DE is intending to launch him as one of the starter level frames then my concern posted up above can be ignored completely but if not then they must listen to the community before final launching.

[Phyrak]

31 minutes ago, Domesticon said:

Happy to see this spurned a lot of discussion and was eventually made the defacto megathread. I figuired I'd share some additional thoughts that I had after thinking things over for a bit.

1. The "Infested Stacks" that are not officially named yet should be called Biomass in my opinion. This makes sense due to the abilities that are used to charge it. The 1 and 4 namely. With how the abilities work it could be taken as he's in a sense eating the enemies he uses the abilities on, adding to his own internal biomass.

2. I've heard a lot of suggestions for him to spawn better Infested when he has more stacks, I still would prefer my approach to it, but if that does not happen, I can fully agree to that idea, the usefulness of the maggots is questionable right now.

3. This one isn't entirely about the frame, but is anyone else really curious what weapons he'll come with? Infested weapons are always fascinating so I wonder if we'll get even more with it.

4. How will Range affect the First ability? Will it only make it longer or will it make it longer and wider?

1. Rad

2. Jugger-yes

3. More infested weapons with interesting passives would be nice

4. Reb was using +45% str/rng and +30% dur and eff - range seems to make it longer not wider