[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[(PSN)TH3NAML3SS]

32 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I summarized my thoughts on Harrow to my buddies as, "Harrow wants to be good but he just isn't."

I then rambled into our discord about what I think, so I'll just copy and paste that here:

I'm not one to typically post on forums, but that is one of the poorest assessments of a frame I've ever read, and demonstrates a severe lack of pragmatic creativity. The only way I can think to properly refute it (and ideally shed some light on how to play this frame in its current state) is just to deconstruct that "rambling" piece by piece.

33 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

there's a lot of problems he has

1. There's no good way to mod him -- He needs duration but he also needs power. Casting speed is almost a must (because otherwise you take forever to use your 3 and 4). On top of that if you need to mod him for efficiency in order to actually use thurible and other skills at the same time

You are correct in that Harrow needs Duration and Power Strength. However, this is not difficult to achieve as their mods do not conflict. A sample Harrow build should look something like this: https://goo.gl/WvD8oB (I'm using Volt as an example because warframe-builder does not yet have a Harrow option). He does not need casting speed, Range (beyond neutral), or Efficiency (beyond neutral), though the latter is appreciated when available.

2. Thurible only restores energy on kill -- self explanatory. Trinity overdoes it but at least she doesn't require you to kill. The longer your TTK the less return on investment.

It is not self explanatory. The amount of energy restored on kill can surpass the Energy restored by EV provided that you have high Power Strength and (Primed) Flow. The Thurible requires that you pay with time upfront, with the perk of not having to pay at all while in use. Consequently, you can (and should) pay for your Thurible while in transit to your next target in order to eliminate a TTK reduction. Trinity pays for her energy with time (a little over one second) on every cast. Thurible's base duration is 30 seconds, so with the build listed above you're always paying for 73.5 seconds, regardless of how long you charge it. Requiring you to kill to receive the benefit is not a flaw on Harrow specifically due to his hard CC that lets you overcome Thurible's range limitations and always reap its maximum energy gain. This strength is especially obvious when considering that Trinity, pragmatically speaking, has the same kill requirement outside of a pure EV build, which only has its utility at the cost of 3/4 of her abilities.

3. Even with nearly 200% duration the invuln from his 4 isn't nearly long enough to do anything with it -- Sure I can give myself a minute of energy regen but I can't even get a full revive out with my ult which is one of the few things it's useful for

The build I listed has 245% duration. The Invulnerability duration is 14.7 seconds for the entire team in a 50+m radius, no Range mods required. You can do a lot with that including getting a full revive. More broadly speaking, however, you should always be using with the highest duration you can muster.

4. Allies hitting and killing enemies takes away from your ability to use penance and thurible, yourself -- you heal by dealing damage and you heal your energy by killing. Zenurik or nothing

Allies hitting enemies, helps you as this makes it easier to kill enemies. Allies killing enemies, isn't a problem as long you can still score kills. In low level content (enemy level =<40) this may be problematic, but it's also not a serious fault as no one should be struggling enough on those levels to even need constant energy restoration. In high level content, that's a completely ridiculous statement, as no frame outside of Octavia can kill enmasse via a large AoE through warframe powers without struggling. Also, I don't know why you mentioned Penance. You only need to hit targets with the ability to generate overshields & extend the buff duration. Killing isn't required.

5. Condemn, while good, has next to no verticality so it's impossible to use on varied terrain in any respectable manner

True, but not much of an issue considering this game's map design.

Scaling will eventually make his only useful powers his first and fourth, due to one shotting making healing useless and not being able to kill making thurible difficult to justify

Even if we account for the keyword of the first sentence being "eventually" (read: after many hours of an endless mission), it's still just plain wrong. Penance still grants an absurd reload speed and fire rate boost with high Power Strength (which again, the build I provided has), greatly boosting your DPS - especially in conjunction with Convenant - and keeping his Thurible usable. And you can realistically use all of these abilities together due to your insanely high Duration that makes all of them last over a minute.

His fourth will eventually be outscaled due to the first half (and it's not even half, it's like 1/3 or 1/4) being always useful but the second half only giving you up to 200% crit on headshots only

Damage only gets you so far

None of this affects crit damage, by the way

Damage is one of the only three things that matters in this game and Harrow has it, along with hard CC (the second thing) and sustainability (the third thing). Guaranteed orange-red crits on a class of weapons with high crit multipliers that is otherwise unable to achieve, is the equivalent to multiplying your DPS 2-3 times over. You don't need additional Crit damage - you're already getting a ton more by design.

The rest of the post isn't worth replying to since it was already addressed. But, one thing that wasn't completely explored was the (dubious) importance of Range.

Range only affects 2 of Harrows abilities and only one - Thurible - in a significant fashion. As was correctly pointed out by @Chipputer, Condemn has almost no verticality to it, decreasing the value of high range on maps with a elevation changes. That said, Warframe is composed of rooms, not sprawling plains. So, the default 20m of hard CC is typically sufficient to stop all threats that are in front of you prior to an elevation change - especially when they're frozen for about 15 seconds. And, on the rare occasion that it isn't, you can easily recast the ability due to its low cost and short cast time. If the cone were broader, I'd reconsider Range's value on it, but at present, it's completely unnecessary.

That being said, the Thurible's range isn't as long as Condemn's, but it can simultaneously function as a good team energy restore. That utility alone is the sole reason you would seriously consider putting Range on this frame. However, because Duration conflicts with Range, and Range conflicts with Power strength, I personally think the cost is too severe to mod for it in any extreme - all four of his abilities benefit greatly from strength and duration, but only one benefits greatly from range. However, it's your call. The example build I provided is technically adapatable for Range (replace Narrow Minded with Power Drift), but I can't in good conscience recommend it. It feels more like DE should just extend the base range by 5 if they actually want it to be a team energy restore as opposed to the selfish one that it's currently designed for.

Oh, and with respect to shields, Redirection is a trap. Don't use it. Stick with Vitality.

[SilverWing013]

So I've  played Harrow from Unracked to 30 in solo missions and in groups done single missions (i.e. exterminate, capture) as well as endless and I have to say I have had fun playing him but I've noticed a few things about him that id what to change and more or less I agree with what I'm reading here but to throw my 2 cents into this id say

1st power-Condemn-: pretty good wish the speed of the chains would move just a 1/2 second faster (they aim in an arc but the speed and travel are just like novas MP or mags Magnetize).  This is how Harrow generates his shields and only for Harrow, Teammates don't get shields. So as a teammate why wait for harrows slow moving chains that don't give you any benefit especially when you can kill the enemies faster than the chains can move so in the fast past flow of the game there's no team benefit and if you're going to say what about CC and yes they can grab a large group of enemies especially with range but with 255% duration you get 15.3 seconds  at base it's 6  so no it doesn't really work to keep a crowd locked down. Although to defend that last point the short duration is nice to keep retagging enemies to generate more shields. So if I were to say Something needs to be changed about this ability I'd say to let teammates be able to receive the shield gain if there nearby. That way its more of a support and teammates can really benefit from this power. 

2nd power-penance-: love the idea of a penance mechanic but I get why the reload and fire rate are Harrow only I could see instances where teammates wouldn't want the fire rate buff (I.e. beam weps, little benefit with a major ammo drain) But the Fact that Harrows only way to heal the team is if Harrow gets the kill on enemies, isn't that good. I think at the very least all nearby teammates should be given the life steal to be able to heal them selfs on kills. If the sharing Buff were to be compared like another mechanic it'd be like the armor buff with Oberon's renewal if teammates are nearby they get it and can carry it with them where ever but the moment renewal is turned off with Oberon everyone loses the buff.

3rd power-Thurible-: pretty much what's stated above teammates who kill enemies in Harrow's aura should have it counted to harrows energy regain. even if its 1/2 value (ex. Harrow charges Thurible for 6 energy per kill teammate kills an enemy in aura Harrow receives 3 energy)

4th power-Covenant-: the duration of this power almost makes it not even worth using. to explain further the animation Harrow goes into when you cast is 6 seconds which is the default time of invunriblilty. Fine I get that it's a God mode so sure can't move and have a small amount of time in it, it's really only for you to collect damage to convert into the crit multiplier. which the duration for that is just a bit too short id like it to be a little longer maybe instead of a doubled the protection phase maybe tripled at the most idk if It'd need to go that high but a small boost is needed. 

After some changes to my build and playing more with Harrow I found that his 1 is fine for generating shields even with fast killing teammates but forget about CC/ locking down a map with that power. As for the speed of the power, it's actually fine where it stands, But I would still like for shields to be able to be given to teammates. Harrows 4 Covenant is fine where it stands. Tip for modding Harrow keep everything positive every stat effects his powers greatly and if one goes negative then he's almost impossible to play(in my experience).

So overall if I were, to sum up, what Harrow is it'd be, Harrow, is the most actively selfish support frame

I hope that proves a point I like Harrow but I want him to be more support that kill hungry.

Edited June 30, 2017 by SilverWing013
Final thought, Edits

[Leqesai]

Played more with harrow and he really feels weird. I never really have need for Thurible, get killed almost all the time when using penance (and really don't need the meager buffs it offers anyway), fall out of rythym with covenant, and struggle getting consistent cc with condemn. 

 

He is very cool looking. But right now feels like a major step down on overall usefulness when compared to the last few frames that have come out (nidus, ivara, octavia, and inaros).

[SSI_Seraph]

1 hour ago, (PS4)TH3NAML3SS said:

Allies hitting enemies, helps you as this makes it easier to kill enemies. Allies killing enemies, isn't a problem as long you can still score kills. In low level content (enemy level =<40) this may be problematic, but it's also not a serious fault as no one should be struggling enough on those levels to even need constant energy restoration. In high level content, that's a completely ridiculous statement, as no frame outside of Octavia can kill enmasse via a large AoE through warframe powers without struggling. Also, I don't know why you mentioned Penance. You only need to hit targets with the ability to generate overshields & extend the buff duration. Killing isn't required.

In low level content it's a problem. In high level it doesn't change too. 

1. Either he can't even kill himself because of the scaling. 

2. Or you have an Equinox or an Octavia on your team for any organized group, clan events for example.

Everything in between is still nuked by AOEs.

Right now, Harrow is only viable as a solo frame to a certain level because shields<<<hp scaling and shield gating is not gonna save him like everyone thinks if it's only a gate between shields and health that will certainly have a cooldown (back to full for the game or fixed cd) or it will exploitable with him or mag for example. 

Edit: add to that the fact that he was presented as a support frame. Absolutely can't be done rn, your team is against you, your charges are too long (4 and thurible, penance lockdown) 

He is supposed to compete with a Trin for that support slot in a squad. 

thurible needs to charge, requires him killing, doesn't give nearly as much energy as ev, (let alone vampire leech's existance)

EV is quick, the target can be killed by teamates and you still get the burst.

I would understand if Thurible doesn't give as much energy because he brings other stuff to the table. But in the current iteration it's completely useless most of the time (any Aoe weapon or ability in the squad, enermy scaling too strong for him to kill on high lvl content) 

Edited June 30, 2017 by SSI_Seraph

[dan.io.wal]

At the moment, I feel like he's a really, really effective solo frame, if you play him correctly. I greatly enjoy his kit, but there are things in game that need to change for him to be more effective.

Condemn: Easily one of the best 1st powers in the game. Fantastic cc that works well for hallways and other enclosed spaces. Combines so perfectly into his second. Also, it's a one handed ability, so reload while you freeze the enemies so you have a full clip. That's just the cherry on top <3

Penance: The lifesteal, the fire rate, the reload speed... thank goodness this isn't a toggle. The duration is more than enough to clear rooms with ease. To those who say that it should be a toggle, no. Just no. 

Thurible: I was very excited for this ability, but I barely use it. I feel like I'd use this only in team situations or if I have nearly no energy and need to use up whatever else I have to get more using it. It's reliable and effective, but my least favorite.

Covenant: Dear lord. Dear lord. Takes the damage and ADDS CRITS?!?! I'm literally going to build an amperex because of this ability. 

(Also to the design team, thank you. He looks amazing and so do his powers <3)

But please, for the love of god make shields more scaleable. IF you're going to emphasize them as much as you have here, as well as other frames in the future, please make that Ia priority. Other frames like Capacitance Volts will benefit greatly from it. Increase the energy pool, since he's a bit of a caster, he needs it. Also, an increase in armor would help him in his whole sacrificial theme, you know? 

His being labeled as a support frame was inaccurate. Doesn't support the team as much as Trinity or even Octavia still. He would need to be changed for that to happen, specifically with how long his animations take and the drain/reward for thurible. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by danthedapper

[Torrempesta]

Basically this thread already said everything I had in mind abut this frame.

Good concept, but it has nothing to do with the fast pace type of game that Warframe is.

- Conviction should hallow you to regen shield double as fast to his normal shield cap, and start to regen it to its double (normal overshield) slowly.

- Condemn should have a faster casting speed and be instant, not wave-like. And make it like Nidus 1, actually a skillshot with visible area on the ground (release button 1 to cast I mean basically) and should grant half the shield when hitting enemies already rooted (a free enemy grants you 150 shield when blocked for the first time? The second time he is hit by Condemn it gives you 75 shield).

- Penance just costs too much. I struggle so much to gain all the shield possible... and then I have to sacrifice it all for some lifesteal? When trinity can just replenish everyone instantly? Not a good deal. "Eh but Trinity uses her ultimate in order to gran you that!" yes, but it's still a one button difficulty skill... I don't have to aim, I don't have to kill anything.
And Oberon? He just goes "Ok guys, you have regen in this humongous area, have fun". Got it? A bit unfair.

- Thurible... well, I sincerely thought it was some sort of melee attack... no really. I thought he was swinging that thing like a mace! But no, I am completely defenseless. I can't even block attacks! Some one already pointed it out: make it that I at least block 75% of incoming projectile damage!

- Covenant is nice for invulnerability, but its buffs for crit are just useless unless you and your team brought high crit chance weapons.

It's nice, but useless, and it's the first time I say something like this. Even Ivara can be modded in order to deal tons of damages, but Harrow seems something not really thought through. He is incomplete... and frankly I don't want some OP augment mod for him to fix it (like chromatic blade, which is BIG).

 

As someone else already said: he needs a serious buff. He needs to be really useful and a REAL alternative to the glorious Trinity. 

He is a support, but he needs others to be still for just a moment so he can do what he must in order to be useful. A support who needs support is not a good support.

 

EDIT: what if Thurible was indeed a melee AND blocking stance? You consume energy over time, and for every enemy hit and killed you grant, rispectively, 1 and 2 power regen for kill ONLY when you deactivate it.

This way Harrow could have a damage ability, but not OP.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Torrempesta
It came to my mind that...

[NightmareT12]

Was browsing through reddit and came across this: 

You guys might want to review Covenant to see if it's indeed bugged or what.

[Torrempesta]

2 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Was browsing through reddit and came across this: 

You guys might want to review Covenant to see if it's indeed bugged or what.

Still haven't reach 30, I find it's extremely difficult to farm affinity for this WF...

Edited June 30, 2017 by Torrempesta

[Ceadeus]

So will the first augment we see for Harrow simply be giving us the AoE version of his 1 that we saw the spectre using on us during the quest?  I'd buy that.

Edited June 30, 2017 by InsanityKey

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Covenant is nice for invulnerability, but its buffs for crit are just useless unless you and your team brought high crit chance weapons.

I remember i have talked with some guy speculating how good will harrow be when i said knowing DE they wont gonna make covenant make the covenant.give out flat crit bonus in a way it lets non-crit viable or no crit weapons be able to crit.

It looks like i was right its only good if you bring crit weapons.

[Phyrak]

My two cents.

----------

Passive: 
2x over-shields

Issue:
Survival wise, 2x over-shields seems a little too little...

Tweaks:
Perhaps an addition of fast deflection at 50-75% strength
Also, there is the apparent issue with energy if Harrow does not get kills needed.
Perhaps on gaining over-shield, gain 25-33% of max energy. This could be potentially OP but it will combat the energy issues of lacking kills - allows for play with brief respite (presuming it gets buffed, allowing for the creation of over-shields)

----------

1. Condemn.

Issue: 
Foes have to do the conga for any gain

Tweaks:
Two options stand well out.
1 - make changes akin to Frost's wave (2), increasing width allowing for more foes to be chained and shield to be generated.
2 - upon hitting a foe, a percent of the energy cost is restored. If more foes are hit - there is a surplus of energy restored, allowing for spam-ability.

----------

2. Penance.

Issue:
With the loss of shields, there is little survivability. Not to mention there is another timer to watch in amongst the other abilities that need watching.

Tweaks:
Give movement whilst animation is playing - split into upper body like mag and ash.

1 - Turn it into a toggle or a switch ability (equinox 3). Doing so will help reduce the timers that need watching.
2 - whilst toggled/switched on, some amount of damage reduction is applied - 20-50% (max 75%). Buff will be maintained so long as Harrow has health. This will allow for longer play due to over-shields still playing a part.

----------

3. Thurible.

Issue:
Damage is a must once thurible is active in order for Harrow to energy back, but if there is a damage frame Harrow struggles or cannot get the kills needed and thus, struggles for energy to continue casting skills.

Tweaks:
For the duration, create a feedback loop.
Kills by Harrow within the area feed allies energy and vice versa - this allows a constant stream of energy.
Another possible addition is to allow an energy siphon of sorts, perhaps between 1-4 (depending on level/effected by str) to passively tick for additional energy.

4. Covenant.

Issue:
With crowd control being a way for Harrow to gain shield to gain a buff to penance, it seems a little odd to have an ability that needs damage to be applied when foes cannot attack Harrow or allies when they are cc'd .

Tweaks:
Outright remove the need to be attacked.
Change the scaling to scale with power strength and percent of energy akin to how thurible functions.
With such scaling, Harrow is no longer relying on being attacked by foes that can't attack him whilst bosltering allies with natural synergy of thurible and covenant by that of maximum energy.
Please also speed up the animation.

-Phyrak

[Phyrak]

Hey there,

Harrow is certainly an interesting frame - both in theme and mechanics.

I will adress it as is stated - I will be speaking what issues I have with the ability and how best to tweak or change it for the best outcome.

----------

Passive: 
2x over-shields

Issue:
Survival wise, 2x over-shields seems a little too little...

Tweaks:
Perhaps an addition of fast deflection at 50-75% strength
Also, there is the apparent issue with energy if Harrow does not get kills needed.
Perhaps on gaining over-shield, gain 25-33% of max energy. This could be potentially OP but it will combat the energy issues of lacking kills - allows for play with brief respite (presuming it gets buffed, allowing for the creation of over-shields)

----------

1. Condemn.

Issue: 
Foes have to do the conga for any gain

Tweaks:
Two options stand well out.
1 - make changes akin to Frost's wave (2), increasing width allowing for more foes to be chained and shield to be generated.
2 - upon hitting a foe, a percent of the energy cost is restored. If more foes are hit - there is a surplus of energy restored, allowing for spam-ability.

----------

2. Penance.

Issue:
With the loss of shields, there is little survivability. Not to mention there is another timer to watch in amongst the other abilities that need watching.

Tweaks:
Give movement whilst animation is playing - split into upper body like mag and ash.

1 - Turn it into a toggle or a switch ability (equinox 3). Doing so will help reduce the timers that need watching.
2 - whilst toggled/switched on, some amount of damage reduction is applied - 20-50% (max 75%). Buff will be maintained so long as Harrow has health. This will allow for longer play due to over-shields still playing a part.

----------

3. Thurible.

Issue:
Damage is a must once thurible is active in order for Harrow to energy back, but if there is a damage frame Harrow struggles or cannot get the kills needed and thus, struggles for energy to continue casting skills.

Tweaks:
For the duration, create a feedback loop.
Kills by Harrow within the area feed allies energy and vice versa - this allows a constant stream of energy.
Another possible addition is to allow an energy siphon of sorts, perhaps between 1-4 (depending on level/effected by str) to passively tick for additional energy.

4. Covenant.

Issue:
With crowd control being a way for Harrow to gain shield to gain a buff to penance, it seems a little odd to have an ability that needs damage to be applied when foes cannot attack Harrow or allies when they are cc'd .

Tweaks:
Outright remove the need to be attacked.
Change the scaling to scale with power strength and percent of energy akin to how thurible functions.
With such scaling, Harrow is no longer relying on being attacked by foes that can't attack him whilst bosltering allies with natural synergy of thurible and covenant by that of maximum energy.
Please also speed up the animation.

Thank you for reading,

-Phyrak
 

[Phyrak]

That sounds rad

I was hoping to see something similar with the chains losing their hold in exchange for a slow and lots of bleed procs.

Another which came up on reddit was having the thurible as an exalted weapon.

My hopes after reading that was it being a flail and shield like that of the conqueror of for honour

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

oh god, it is so bad as it can be.

Only one good thing -- no stupid synegry make each ability useless by themself. It's pretty nice step from DE. Oh, wait...

But all other stuff....

1. Condemn. It is pretty bad idea make shild recarge like this. It's simply became a stupid hunt and while i try to get shilds it is so ez to take damage. At low lvl it's fine, but i guess sortie already will show how dumb is this idea.

Crowd Control is also almost nominal. I expect at least 30 degree cone at this duration.

2. Penance. Well, maybe i miss something. But why this ability doesn't recharge my shilds? You know, this frame is kinda made aroud it. I don't wanna spell name Trinity (oh, too late), but even she does. And even have ability to gave extrashild same time as energy.

As though lost all shilds is a good idea in a combat. You know, i expect some really good advantage after i do it. There is still many frames can buff my damage.

And who the hell think this is any way think this is good idea to make this crazy cast time? After this S#&amp;&#036; i must be a demigod, not a bit faster fire rate.

At the end i wanna say its pretty dumb. It have so low duration. Then i want to reload it most likely not active. So, i want to use ability focused at reload and... Yeah. IT IS FASTER JUST TO RELOAD.

P.S. Why no buff for a teammates? It is kinda bug, or what?

3. Thurible. I guess real idea for this frame was "stand and wait". I don't think this charge mechanic is any good for any video game.

Range. Yes, while the T. gave energy at crazy range, we are have a small circle. This base range (15m) not great even for a AOE damage. For a support stuff it is kinda joke.

And, the most awfull mechanic is counter-synergy with team. I hope you will already understood, this is co-op game. We don't need fight for frags... We already have a small competion for a DD. But then i hate my teammates then they steal my frags... Dat bad, all bad. Just make it a area there anybody will generate energy.

Spoiler

I can tell you a secret. It is already legal dialogue from Trininy and DD:

-- Give me enegry.

-- Left me any mob, then i do.

It is not something unusual. Just a good team.

I have no idea how it can work with Harrow. Since Trinity must just mark a mob, not kill it.

Why Harrow not generate some kind of completely new way of getting enegry? I think it can be a reason, to use em if he generate some kind of orb-links to replenish energy in a toggled abilities. Then he can have his place in game.

After all. This is just not a great amount of energy. No, no, no. Not good enough.

4.Covenant. And again. 2 seconds to cast. You know, it is already looks like a bad joke. 25% of skill duration is casting time.

Yeah, there is buff, but this is not a great time at all. 12 seconds.

This is ultimate, cmon. I can't recast is, but i need to do this all the time. I need to wait 2 seconds before recast.

And after all, i got buff only for a weapon (and Mesa).

This is short summary, but don't think it is better than a other skills. This is just a simple ability and bad in any way. Bugged (?) after all, so even not so strong as must be. But this is not a main problem.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And we got.. nothing.

Gunframe with abilty constatly use skills to survive, suppot with a counter-team mechanic. Even after you fix ALL i sayd here Trinity will be better (if only he will not provide 300 energy from each kill).

Few word about "stupid synegry". I don't miss it, but it is even more ugly than always, i can't even call it so. Press 4 to make 2 more reasonable. Press 1 to give duration to 2. I am just don't wanna to use it (frame Harrow) at all. I will take Titania, or Rhino, or Mesa or, actually any other frame. I need to play at piano and all i have is a weapon damage.

 

Spoiler

Ok, it can provide more damage than a Rhino. Theoretically. But in real, then Rhino use Iron Skin, i gave all my shilds.

So, then i am not afraid to die, i just don't need so much damage. And then i need survivability i spend my DPS to press 1 and 4. I'm not talking about gameplay, this is just a real life math. Then Rhino shoot, i recast all my stuff.

What i get for change?

Well, Rhino get Charge and a Crowd Control. Harrow get energy. With a skill, which actually take time from a shooting too. For a skills you must use all the time. Wonderful.

So, for a low lvl Harrow useless. For a high lvl Harrow even more useless.

All we got is a good animation. But better it would be idle.

 

 

 

[Chewarette]

Wow he has 0 energy problem...

I don't think his loss of shields with his 2 is an issue too. Just use it wisely, not even mentioning your sentinel will replenish them anyway with Guardian.

All what you're proposing are reducing "decisions" to 0. You gain energy whatever you're doing, you are invulnerable and gain full buff whenever you want, so you basically ask for Harrow to transform into a nobrain spamfest like a low duration Octavia... Currently, you have to use your spells wisely if you want to gain the full benefit : Use your 2 when not surrounded by enemies, use your 4 when surrounded by ennemies or inside flame/poison patches, use and release your 3 when you feel you can use the replenishment efficiently, and try to aim with your 1, dunno... I like this gameplay.

The only change i'd see being tweaked is his passive. Seeing that Harrow highly depends on shields, his armor should apply to its shields, as passive. He has 150 base armor that will be completely useless with his set of skills.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chewarette

[Kezriak]

-His 2 locks you in place entirely+the animation is a touch long for my liking. Increase its base casting animation speed to the level it has with Natural Talent applied to the frame+allow for lower body movement (much like you did recently with Mag's pull) and hes good to go. Same can be said for his 4 in my opinion.

-Not sure how his 3 works, does the energy regen on headshot/kill apply on any ally kill within the area? From what I've seen the buff and its mechanics are great, headshots (that extra level of difficulty/skill) reward you, as it should be. The area of effect is nice, but the real issues are A) enemies killed outside of its AoE don't give the energy restoration (not a huge deal but not what I was led to believe) and the bigger issue B) Harrow needs to get the kills to restore the energy, where it should be an AoE buff that restore energy to allies in the area of effect

-His 4 is fine, its a long animation but you are invulnerable during its animation, I'd just like to see its animation time reduced/sped up, aswell as being able to move while casting it (further testing required, this might be the case)

-His armor level caught me off guard, with his 2 depleting shields, I was under the assumption he'd have higher armor (atleast 225-250, making steel fiber somewhat viable) but this is a personal preference thing, not a FIX THIS NOW OMGWTF level issue, MAYBE look into this with more sample data from the playerbase down the road?

Anyone in the community, feel free to weigh in, havn't played him that much, so I might be off base/incorrect on some of these points, don't by shy on giving constructive input.

[Ocerkin]

i only agree with half your change to his 1 he doesnt need to regain energy from his 1 at all, it needs the ice wave cone added but not the energy restore

 

i agree he needs to be able to move during his 2, and ill agree that itd be better as a toggle, but the rest is not great...

 

My thoughts on what harrow's changes should be:

 

For his 1:    add a cone ala ice wave, simple and easy, keep the power as is but give it more area of effect, its far to thin now

 

For his 2:    When you first cast penance you lose all your shields to buff the power as he does now, then in addition to an energy drain so long as it stays on it cuts your possible shields to half what his normally would be, including overshields and depending on how much shield capacity he has and sacrificed the energy drain is cut similar to how it gets added time for every 100 shields sacrificed now, basically he sacrifices his passive for the buff staying active, fits the theme of the frame as him sacrificing of himself to help others doesn't it?

 

For his 3:    His allies should give him energy back, it can really screw a harrow over if he helps his allies and then they proceed to go on a killing spree which this game readily encourages, and we as harrow dont get any big aoe death bombs to drop unlike 90% of the other frames we would likely end up partied with so this fear of ending up getting nothing from our own power is a very real possibility. also, the rate it drains energy to set this ability up is WAY to slow, speed that up its just so slow.

 

For his 4:    you spend a nice small chunk of the relatively short invulnerability timer locked in place, im guessing this is in an attempt to make us into an enemy target to get that buff running but maybe add some kind of bullet and enemy attraction to harrow during the invulnerability portion of the power? that way we could use it that way, huge pile of enemies coming towards our team or whatever we might be defending, we pop our 4 everyone goes invulnerable as we get lit up and boost our crit buff  while defending our target and allies...

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ocerkin

[Ocerkin]

My thoughts on what harrow's changes should be:

 

For his 1:    add a cone ala ice wave, simple and easy, keep the power as is but give it more area of effect, its far to thin now

 

For his 2:    When you first cast penance you lose all your shields to buff the power as he does now, then in addition to an energy drain so long as it stays on it cuts your possible shields to half what his normally would be, including overshields and depending on how much shield capacity he has and sacrificed the energy drain is cut similar to how it gets added time for every 100 shields sacrificed now, basically he sacrifices his passive for the buff staying active, fits the theme of the frame as him sacrificing of himself to help others doesn't it?

 

For his 3:    His allies should give him energy back, it can really screw a harrow over if he helps his allies and then they proceed to go on a killing spree which this game readily encourages, and we as harrow dont get any big aoe death bombs to drop unlike 90% of the other frames we would likely end up partied with so this fear of ending up getting nothing from our own power is a very real possibility. also, the rate it drains energy to set this ability up is WAY to slow, speed that up its just so slow.

 

For his 4:    you spend a nice small chunk of the relatively short invulnerability timer locked in place, im guessing this is in an attempt to make us into an enemy target to get that buff running but maybe add some kind of bullet and enemy attraction to harrow during the invulnerability portion of the power? that way we could use it that way, huge pile of enemies coming towards our team or whatever we might be defending, we pop our 4 everyone goes invulnerable as we get lit up and boost our crit buff  while defending our target and allies...

[Ocerkin]

My thoughts on what harrow's changes should be:

 

For his 1:    add a cone ala ice wave, simple and easy, keep the power as is but give it more area of effect, its far to thin now

 

For his 2:    When you first cast penance you lose all your shields to buff the power as he does now, then in addition to an energy drain so long as it stays on it cuts your possible shields to half what his normally would be, including overshields and depending on how much shield capacity he has and sacrificed the energy drain is cut similar to how it gets added time for every 100 shields sacrificed now, basically he sacrifices his passive for the buff staying active, fits the theme of the frame as him sacrificing of himself to help others doesn't it?

 

For his 3:    His allies should give him energy back, it can really screw a harrow over if he helps his allies and then they proceed to go on a killing spree which this game readily encourages, and we as harrow dont get any big aoe death bombs to drop unlike 90% of the other frames we would likely end up partied with so this fear of ending up getting nothing from our own power is a very real possibility. also, the rate it drains energy to set this ability up is WAY to slow, speed that up its just so slow.

 

For his 4:    you spend a nice small chunk of the relatively short invulnerability timer locked in place, im guessing this is in an attempt to make us into an enemy target to get that buff running but maybe add some kind of bullet and enemy attraction to harrow during the invulnerability portion of the power? that way we could use it that way, huge pile of enemies coming towards our team or whatever we might be defending, we pop our 4 everyone goes invulnerable as we get lit up and boost our crit buff  while defending our target and allies...

[WaylanderG]

Firstly i have to say, Chains of harrow is awesome quest, so much dark atmosphere i felt like i was in a slasher movie, really did give me shivers "TAP TAP TAP"!!

Ok to my question, when using first ability "condemn" ive been running as max duration about 17 seconds, but it doesn't always activate the chains or some enemies appear unaffected unless i spam "1" 3 or 4 times, is this because mobs get to make a saving throw, is it affected by mob lvl? or is just a totaly random abilility with no guarantee of success  each time it is activated?

Harrow is awesome.

Thanks DE

 

[Buzkyl]

6 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

 

- Covenant is nice for invulnerability, but its buffs for crit are just useless unless you and your team brought high crit chance weapons.

 

The skill makes any weapon a crit weapon, at max cap it provides an additive 50% crit or 200% on head-shots, which will make any weapon a crit monster. Crit weapons actually are less viable on this as they are balanced around constant crits, while if you bring something like the Nukor/Kulstar (non crit weapons) you can boost their damage to ridiculous levels.

[Torrempesta]

1 minute ago, Buzkyl said:

The skill makes any weapon a crit weapon, at max cap it provides an additive 50% crit or 200% on head-shots, which will make any weapon a crit monster. Crit weapons actually are less viable on this as they are balanced around constant crits, while if you bring something like the Nukor/Kulstar (non crit weapons) you can boost their damage to ridiculous levels.

Honestly I don't care if I pass from a 5% crit chance to a 20% if the damage is still 1,5x.

Don't you think?

Better a buff on crit DAMAGE, as some one else already said before. That would be useful.

[Buzkyl]

Just now, Torrempesta said:

Honestly I don't care if I pass from a 5% crit chance to a 20% if the damage is still 1,5x.

Don't you think?

Better a buff on crit DAMAGE, as some one else already said before. That would be useful.

Crit damage is useless if you barely crit in the first place.

[Torrempesta]

1 minute ago, Buzkyl said:

Crit damage is useless if you barely crit in the first place.

That's why you should bring a high crit chance weapon in the first place if they will make this change.

I think it obvious.

[Buzkyl]

Just now, Torrempesta said:

That's why you should bring a high crit chance weapon in the first place if they will make this change.

I think it obvious.

You do realise that by making it only affect crit damage you basically make harrows ultimate effectively useless if you don't have a crit weapon? It makes an already niche frame even more niche. Congrats.

You also lose out on more damage as even most crit weapons won't be able to Red crit unles they're crit viable melees.