Please don't nerf Trin. And let me tell you why.

[UltraRareSloth]

i think she may OP with group but not OP on solo.

may i ask who want her to be change.

what change do you want for her? i want to know your idea for her new change.

i like her now but your idea maybe better so i want details about it.

 

[Insizer]

32 minutes ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

Man every time I see someone mention infinite energy is OP, I always refer you people to see Energy pizza spamming, Zenurik energy pool, and Arcane Energize. So tell me again how she is any different than those three? I'll wait. 

... My post flew right over your head huh?  Read OP's OP and then that post you quoted again.  I was attacking OP's first post because it provided no argument despite advertising "let me tell you why".  All it said was "It is not OP, there is no debate, everyone knows this".  In the post you quoted, I used the same logic, words, and styling to construct a similar yet opposite argument that held the same nonexistent weight in an attempt to mock the post.

Now to address your post, one without an argument as well.  All you say is "Infinite energy and EV is not OP because there are other ways to get infinite energy"... you completely distract the argument from the issue "is Trinity and her energy regen capability OP" by bringing other things in as well.  Those things have no bearing on whether Trinity and/or her energy regen capacity itself is OP, nor do they have bearing on whether infinite energy itself is OP.  Whether the mechanics of energy pads, Zenurik's passive, and Arcane Energize are OP are each their own discussions and debates.  I could say "yes, what of Energy pads and Zenurik, and Arcane Energize (I don't know about this one because I've never used it)?  They too are OP.  They too need to be fixed" and completely shut down your post and non-argument.

The funniest part of this whole thing is that if you read my later posts then you'd hear me say exactly that.  The energy economy is broken in this game and needs to be fixed.  Fixing Trinity's infinite energy would be a step towards that.

So tell me, what was the point of your post?

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Insizer

[-Almighty]

If you believe Trinity needs to be re-balanced or reworked, you haven't experienced endgame. 

In that sense, you have no right to even vote whether it happens, as infinite energy isn't what'll take you endgame and most definitely not blessing as that was trashed for endgame... But something more like CC or Octavia's/Naramon Invisibility. 

This thread show's how many warframe user's are actually "experienced" as they claim with their thousands of hours.

[DrakoKnight48]

36 minutes ago, Insizer said:

... My post flew right over your head huh?  Read OP's OP and then that post you quoted again.  I was attacking OP's first post because it provided no argument despite advertising "let me tell you why".  All it said was "It is not OP, there is no debate, everyone knows this".  In the post you quoted, I used the same logic, words, and styling to construct a similar yet opposite argument that held the same nonexistent weight in an attempt to mock the post.

Now to address your post, one without an argument as well.  All you say is "Infinite energy and EV is not OP because there are other ways to get infinite energy"... you completely distract the argument from the issue "is Trinity and her energy regen capability OP" by bringing other things in as well.  Those things have no bearing on whether Trinity and/or her energy regen capacity itself is OP, nor do they have bearing on whether infinite energy itself is OP.  Whether the mechanics of energy pads, Zenurik's passive, and Arcane Energize are OP are each their own discussions and debates.  I could say "yes, what of Energy pads and Zenurik, and Arcane Energize (I don't know about this one because I've never used it)?  They too are OP.  They too need to be fixed" and completely shut down your post and non-argument.

The funniest part of this whole thing is that if you read my later posts then you'd hear me say exactly that.  The energy economy is broken in this game and needs to be fixed.  Fixing Trinity's infinite energy would be a step towards that.

So tell me, what was the point of your post?

 

To answer your question: No. I quoted your post only AFTER reading the first page. I never even saw there were other pages until AFTER sending my post. 

Tell me, what exactly is your definition of "fixing"  as you put it, when mentioning large energy pads, Zenurik, or Arcane Energize? Lemme guess. You want them to give so little energy they aren't even worth using, am I right? Cause caster frames like Frost, Ember, Mag, Nova, Saryn, Banshee, Mesa depend on high concentration of energy otherwise they drop like flies at higher levels. After reading past the first page I did see a few post mentioning Eximus units being able to drain your energy pool in a flash if too many are on your warframe. Honestly I didn't know they had this sort of ability until a few months back when I was leveling up Ivara in prowl. Those guys did a number on her energy while simply passing by them. Imagine doing an endurance run on MOT (Void mission), using only Valkyr in Hysteria, not Zenurik, No Arcane Energize, just energy pads. The enemy scaling and Eximus units killed my Valkyr like she was nothing. I kept getting popped out of Hysteria due to Nullies and exuimus units draining her energy in seconds once the mission got past 20 minutes. Imagine any other frame dealing with this. Instant death if you aren't spamming abilities or if you aren't a tank wrecking waves of enemies by nuking a room. 

For the people asking for Energy Pads, Zenurik, Arcane energize, and Trinity to be nerfed OBVIOUSLY don't run high level missions where you NEED infinite energy for teammates to preform CC abilities like Vauban's bastille in a sortie or Nightmare LOR, or Nova's M Prime. Where it's a REQUIREMENT to have energy in pumped into your warframe! So, sorry if I'm not shedding tears for the folks in this thread saying infinite energy is OP, a game where you can get one shot my a level 100 juggernaut charge; regardless of how much health and shields you have. We NEED CC frames like Nova, Vauban, Mag, Ember, you name it; to have energy pumped into them 24/7 in a mission, otherwise you gonna die. A LOT in this game. And may mercy be on those who play solo. U dead. No teammates to pick ya up then, GG my dude! Hey, at least ya got a few revives left right?? 

[MrJxt]

43 minutes ago, -Almighty said:

If you believe Trinity needs to be re-balanced or reworked, you haven't experienced endgame. 

In that sense, you have no right to even vote whether it happens, as infinite energy isn't what'll take you endgame and most definitely not blessing as that was trashed for endgame... But something more like CC or Octavia's/Naramon Invisibility. 

This thread show's how many warframe user's are actually "experienced" as they claim with their thousands of hours.

I've experienced "endgame" and I think Trinity could use a rework. How about you?

[AandOE]

My EV's range is down to about melee-only range, so I see no current problems with micromanaging myself energy. There are ways to tweak larger ranges, of course, like energy gifting drop-off range, or making the energy pulses not collapse into nearly a single pulse on low duration builds, both of which can be team-worked to negate.

If anything, I'd like to see Well of Life as something else, since I only use it to do Simaris target trapping. Harrow's healing ability is kinda what I've been suggesting for a while as WoL's replacement, so maybe a static bubble field could help.

[Borg1611]

Things like sortie assassination Raptor can't be done at all without the strongest of "broken mechanics." As long as things like that exist, it's hard to argue that something like Trinity is overpowered. Something like Wukong or Limbo + Mesa are more effective at the actually challenging "end game" content than Trinity + anything, and those types of gimmicks don't require a Trinity at all. 

The most "overpowered" abilities in the game like mass AoE CC don't even require the energy a Trinity can provide. The abilities you can spam with an EV trinity in your group really aren't overpowered in the most challenging content in the game. Who cares if you can spam some AoE clear ability in a low level mission because of EV?

I do find her kind of boring to play after they destroyed the self-harm playstyle as that was the most interesting build she had at the time. I think one day if they finally re-do the energy system, which they absolutely should as it's outdated and terrible (maybe adding baseline passive regen or other frame specific resource systems where appropriate), Trinity would need a re-work so that she can stay relevant as a support frame (a re-work that gives her something more to add to a team once EV is no longer considered strong due to the drawbacks of the energy system finally being fixed), but she doesn't really need a "nerf" in the current state of the game. Her 1 in particular could use a re-design as its only current purpose is to keep a target alive to EV longer if you're doing something without a lot of mobs around. 

It's also unfortunate that the DR from both link and blessing become unavailable to her in negative duration builds. Personally I would turn link into a toggle unaffected by duration so it's usable in all her builds, and I would do that now rather than in some distant future where she gets a re-work. She has a lot of clunk in her kit that gets ignored because she's so controversial with one group wanting her endlessly nerfed. Negative duration Trinity essentially has only 2 abilities. EV for energy and damaging high level targets and blessing (but only for the burst heal, the DR is negligible due to it only lasting a second). 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Borg1611

[PopGligor]

10 hours ago, NotSoPure said:

From your reply its just obvious you have a low amount of hours and dont even play any end game content, no im not talking about sorties, think higher my friend. Your opinion doesn't really hold much weight when you don't experience all the game has and why certain things are the way they are. TheGrimCorsair put it nicely a few posts above. Have a read.

I'm aware she's needed in LoR, because of the damn bomb. But if they take away the bomb's energy drain, Trin is the first thing to go from the squad, as she just isn't all that useful. I wrote a while ago how she should change. The problem isn't infinite energy, it's that it takes zero attention to get infinite energy. My proposition was something like

Change her 1st ability to give energy instead of health. That way, other players will still be able to get infinite energy, just they'll have to put a small bit of work into it - to shoot the target themselves. Her 3 and 4 remain unchanged. Especially as link can be used to reduce armor. It's a great ability. Her second becomes an armor buff that gives a flat bonus armor, like 100, plus some percentage on top of that depending on power strength. It has to be really good. That way, her whole kit becomes useful on all builds and she's an actual support frame, not an infinite team energy restore.

That way the problems are solved, and she's still an infinite energy frame. All the change would do is force the players around her to pay attention to the battlefield and give her one actual support ability which fits her theme.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

EV isn't needed for LOR at all. for the bombs just take turns, for non-CCed enemies... well how about fighting them?!

infinite energy isn't neccessary for anything in warframe's official endgame, even with broken scaling (and i'm not saying it isn't, especially enemy damage). in fact it is one of the primary reason we don't have any real (as in challenging) endgame at all and it's a problem indeed. EV needs to be changed drastically if not exchanged (that negative duration thing is probably just an age old exploit anyway, just like old miasma), a pizza cap of like 10 per mission would be due, zenurik regen should just be built in feature imo etc. etc. on the other hand power costs should be revised, too, to better reflect their relative effectiveness.

apart from being broken she's also just completely dull to play as she is, her battle "plan" really comes down to mashing 1 or 2 buttons to completely heal and provide everyone with energy... i mean really where do you go from there? they did support a million times better now with harrow, who's mechanics actually reward active gameplay.

the fact she was already nerfed is completely negligible, all that matters is status quo. using the fact other things are broken too as an "argument" is also really saying nothing at all. the game is not fubar, its energy economy is (EV playing a vital part). i'd even claim it's pretty much common knowledge.

deal with it.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Fallen_Echo]

But seriously, unless people come up with a way to make trinity usable this thread is useless.

Lets go throught her skills:

1. Well of Life. Practically useless, the augement is worthless. This skill needs heavy changes to by useful.

2. Energy vampire. Her most known skill, technically the only one you see her using all the time. Its the most important skill in her kit, because we need energy to survive at higher levels badly.

3.Link. Pretty useful skill, but rarely used because at higher levels enemies just oneshot you. It had a niche use when it was able to channel self damage to enemies.

4. Blessing. Grants damage resistance and healing, its pretty much the better version of her 1.

Now her are some balanced changes to her:

1. Well of energy. Her 1 now restores energy as long as your allies attack the target, same way as with the original skill. Augement (pool of power) now grants 5% power strenght when players pick up health and energy orbs for 10 sec, stacks 3 times.
2. Vampire: Trinity marks a target in 100m. The marked target shines in blue, lifted in the air and releases waves of void energy around it . Each wave restores shields and heals players nearby (20m affected by power range) while it staggers and damages enemies touching the wave for 5% of the marked targets current health. Augement: Reaching max shields now grants 100 armor and +10% armor to every player for the duration of the skill.
3. Link: Duration is capped at 15 sec and grants 100% damage reduction. All damage and status effects are reflected back at enemies by 50% including self damage.
4. Blessing: Can stay the same, i have no ideas for this.

[Insizer]

23 hours ago, DrakoKnight48 said:

To answer your question: No. I quoted your post only AFTER reading the first page. I never even saw there were other pages until AFTER sending my post. 

Tell me, what exactly is your definition of "fixing"  as you put it, when mentioning large energy pads, Zenurik, or Arcane Energize? Lemme guess. You want them to give so little energy they aren't even worth using, am I right? Cause caster frames like Frost, Ember, Mag, Nova, Saryn, Banshee, Mesa depend on high concentration of energy otherwise they drop like flies at higher levels. After reading past the first page I did see a few post mentioning Eximus units being able to drain your energy pool in a flash if too many are on your warframe. Honestly I didn't know they had this sort of ability until a few months back when I was leveling up Ivara in prowl. Those guys did a number on her energy while simply passing by them. Imagine doing an endurance run on MOT (Void mission), using only Valkyr in Hysteria, not Zenurik, No Arcane Energize, just energy pads. The enemy scaling and Eximus units killed my Valkyr like she was nothing. I kept getting popped out of Hysteria due to Nullies and exuimus units draining her energy in seconds once the mission got past 20 minutes. Imagine any other frame dealing with this. Instant death if you aren't spamming abilities or if you aren't a tank wrecking waves of enemies by nuking a room. 

For the people asking for Energy Pads, Zenurik, Arcane energize, and Trinity to be nerfed OBVIOUSLY don't run high level missions where you NEED infinite energy for teammates to preform CC abilities like Vauban's bastille in a sortie or Nightmare LOR, or Nova's M Prime. Where it's a REQUIREMENT to have energy in pumped into your warframe! So, sorry if I'm not shedding tears for the folks in this thread saying infinite energy is OP, a game where you can get one shot my a level 100 juggernaut charge; regardless of how much health and shields you have. We NEED CC frames like Nova, Vauban, Mag, Ember, you name it; to have energy pumped into them 24/7 in a mission, otherwise you gonna die. A LOT in this game. And may mercy be on those who play solo. U dead. No teammates to pick ya up then, GG my dude! Hey, at least ya got a few revives left right?? 

I dont have all the time in the world to respond to this so I'll be quick.

Ok, I let you guess.  And you guessed completely wrong, congrads!  You make too many assumptions about my position.  All I've said is that infinite energy is BS and that the energy economy is broken.  Nowhere have I said I want energy to be so scarce that many frames completely lose functionality.  I actually mainly use caster frames so don't give me that S#&$.  Volt is my main, Mesa and Vauban are my second picks and Frost is high up there as well, along with Limbo (even before his rework).  Hell, I even enjoy using Titania despite her critical flaws.  All of this said, i do believe that the energy economy is out of wack.  Also don't assume that I don't do high level stuff, because I do.  I've done hour plus long missions on Mot frequently.  I do the final missions of sorties again and again.  I do kuva food missions all the time.

There is a reason why I said "fixed" as opposed to "nerf energy regen into the ground! Make energy spheres the only real way to get energy!!!!" 

GG my dude, you've completely flipped out over nothing but your own delusion!

Edited July 10, 2017 by Insizer

[Insizer]

15 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

But seriously, unless people come up with a way to make trinity usable this thread is useless.

Yes, this thread is gone.  Lets pray a mod locks it soon.

[jfhsanseiIII]

Oh this isn't going to end well. 

[ashrah]

trin is one of most boring frames to play .why u press 1 and its done.slap range mods.natural talent. good power and that is u give 100+ energy in half second that is broken...wen is toxin ancient near u slap 4 to negate  hp lose from toxin proc and that is trin

Edited July 10, 2017 by ashrah

[Evanescent]

"Infinite energy is not OP."

Real smart way to make your point, lol.

Just pressing a button and getting instant energy is OP no matter how you look at it. Making you work for it would be better.

[SilencerMuto]

yea Trinity need rework. fix her skill. people play it because no need to micro managing. so easy press 1 & 2 done.Try  play Harrow you'll see if you manage it wrong you got no energy for next skill. if you got all buff you need to kill fast or your team kill so fast that you got not enough energy for next wave. oh you need headshot to get good return. 

it doesn't mean i hate Trinity, she just boring to play.

[Evanescent]

On 7/9/2017 at 8:31 AM, DrakoKnight48 said:

Energy pizza spamming,

They are also a problem, you know? Same as trinity.

On 7/9/2017 at 8:31 AM, DrakoKnight48 said:

Zenurik energy pool,

I don't think it fills your energy immediately, no? It's nowhere near Trinity levels in terms of sustaining power abuse lol.

Additionally it requires a lot more grinding to get.

On 7/9/2017 at 8:31 AM, DrakoKnight48 said:

and Arcane Energize.

Well, it's essentially Trinity but with RNG. So in a way it's also a problem.

On 7/9/2017 at 8:31 AM, DrakoKnight48 said:

So tell me again how she is any different than those three? I'll wait. 

You people do realise, that the reason we have energy leeches and magnetic procs and disruptors and parasitic eximii is BECAUSE OF TRINITY RIGHT? She just breaks the energy system, forcing the devs to put in more and more infuriating ways to drain yur energy pool on steroids, which hurts players who don't ply with trinity.

Right now she fills all support roles too well for there to be any competition. Damage resistance, energy, health, all at such magnitudes that no other powers can compare. Go to any support frame and you'll be met with '...but why use x when you have trinity'. She just hasn't kept up wit how the game has changed.

That is not to say that she should be nerfed into the ground. What she needs is to be reworked to be powerful but in a more active role.

The entire reason Viver and S#&$ like power spamming happened was because there was a trinity to fuel the spam. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I assume this is due to what happened at Tennocon.

Trinity should change.  I don't think her core aspect should change.  That being a very solid support with keeping people alive and giving energy but not having any CC or damage of her own.  But her well of life needs to be replaced with something else.  as Blessing is balanced as is right now.  and as long as blessing exists well of life has no practical use.  The way her second ability works though should be changed.

Yes.  there are millions of other ways to get energy.  yes.  Trinity doesn't technically break any content with it due to how things are at the moment.  However.  It still doesn't change that being able to keep someone's energy basically at full the entire match easily just is fundimentally bending/breaking some powers.  DE has done a fantastic job at reining in problem powers that got propped up by EV.  but it still is a flaw.

I wouldn't know how to change it if i'm honest.  But I agree it should change at some point.  I still want her to be powerful.  and the best at supporting directly and easily.  But.  I don't know.  I want her to be more interesting.  More interactive.

[blackheartstar_pc]

I do not consider her to be overpowered, and hope they never come back around to nerf her more.

[jazz]

59 minutes ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

I do not consider her to be overpowered, and hope they never come back around to nerf her more.

Welcome to the club of sanity my dude :)

[SolarDwagon]

3 hours ago, _A_Illuminati_A_ said:

Welcome to the club of sanity my dude :)

Or welcome to the pseudo-exploit club. Besides, from weight of responses in this thread at least... you're in the minority. Which means the majority gets to decide what's sane ;P

[(PSN)robotwars7]

don't worry, Trinity won't get nerfed, and I'll tell you why:

Spoiler

it's not Wednesday.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by (PS4)robotwars7

[-Pure]

Pls let this thread die before i lose more brain cells okthx

[SenorClipClop]

On 7/8/2017 at 7:25 PM, _A_Illuminati_A_ said:

Trinity is very balanced... infinite energy is NOT OverPowered.

Trinity has been nerfed so often and so much that it has become a meme. The entire reason for this is that Trinity has been incredibly overpowered in the past, allowing most squads to completely trivialize basically all content in the game. Some would argue that Trinity is still overpowered.

I am one of those people. Trinity is ridiculously powerful. The simple fact is, she gets to turn 50 of her own Energy into more than 50 Energy for each member of the squad. That's like me paying 5 dollars to magically give myself and three of my friends 30 dollars. Couple this with the fact that Trinity's ult completely restores the team's vitals and gives a brief damage reduction for just twice the cost of Energy Vampire (easily got with a single use of Energy Vampire), and you have infinite sustain for minimal effort.

That said, I don't believe she needs a nerf. Turning a little Energy into more Energy is not game-breaking. What breaks the game (or at least bends it pretty hard) is the fact that Trinity can do this with only two requirements on the player: have 50 Energy, and press one button. Since this requires zero effort and near-zero involvement, the incredible power that Trinity brings into a mission is not earned. If we go back to our money analogy, I can turn 5 dollars into 30 dollars for me and my friends by using that 5 to buy the materials to make something (let's say cookies), adding some effort (mixing and baking) and then selling those cookies for greater than the cost of the ingredients. Those would be some grievously expensive cookies, but the analogy stands that in order to turn a little into a lot, you need to add something else. (The Law of Equivalent Exchange, for all you FMA fans.) Trinity, on the other hand, can turn a little into a lot without the restrictions of time, effort, skill or involvement, and this is what makes her overpowered.

To make Trinity fit into the game without taking away her incredible strength, it would be prudent to add one or more of the following conditions to Energy Vampire (other abilities don't need to change, since EV is the catalyst for her imbalance):

• EV could have some kind of time restriction to prevent everyone from having infinite Energy all the time instantly (I'm not a big fan of this fix); or,
• EV could have some kind of skill requirement to pull off effectively to ensure optimal effects; or,
• EV could need Trinity to involve herself in combat, utility or team support beyond just tagging an enemy with the skill in order for EV to have an optimal effect (I like this one best); or,
• some other idea....

Her power level is fine, but she ought to do at least something to earn it. A potential rework to Trinity would ideally look a lot like the Saryn rework: results of her gameplay would be just as effective as pre-update, but would require more than a single button-press to pull off at full strength. Even the simple 3-button combo Saryn can make work would be a step-up from what we have with Trin now. The way I see it, the problem is not with the strength of what Trinity can do. The problem is with how effortlessly she is able to do the incredibly strong things she does. Not only is it cheesy, it's frankly quite boring. When I crafted Trin Prime, I retooled her to be a channeled melee fighter just I'd have something to do as I was watching health bars and tagging enemies with EV. The devs have made it clear that when their game is played, they want to ensure an engaging experience, and so they're phasing out those mechanics that encourage players to be asleep at the wheel. Trinity doesn't need to be made weaker, she just needs to be made a little more involved.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[Vox_Preliator]

Scaling exists specifically to kill you and force you out of a mission.  If Trinity lets you deal with six-hour endurance runs and level eleventy-hundred enemies, then maybe THAT'S A SIGN THAT SHE IS OVERPOWERED.  Being able to easily overcome endless scaling isn't a positive if you want anything even remotely resembling a balanced game.  Oh wait reading some of these responses suggests some of you people want to cakewalk through literally everything ever even though lower-level planets exist if you ever want that feeling.  Oh wait except it's not that feeling you want it's the rewards of high-level missions, except you want those to also be cakewalks.  What exactly is so damn objectionable to you people about low-level missions being easy and fun but not rewarding and high-level missions being hard and punishing but very rewarding?

And frankly the entire energy economy needs an overhaul.  Nerfing EV, Zenurik, (Pizzas?  Eh, maybe not, *shrug*) and adding mechanics to restore Energy not relying entirely on random drops, and toning down Parasitic Eximi, Disruptors, and Magnetic Procs.  Here's what I would do for each:

In reverse order, Magnetic Procs double (Triple?) energy costs and have a higher default duration, but do not drain any energy directly.  Disruptors' energy drain on hit is only given to itself, and foes within its aura only get its power resistance.  Parasitic Eximi drain is reduced to a third of what it is currently, and multiple auras do not stack (Do they even do that now?  I'm not actually sure, they never live long enough for me to notice).  Also, they have a distinct noise and a tether of some sort to alert you to their presence and location.

Not quite sure how the Energy restoration should work.  2/5/10 per light, medium, heavy foe killed?  Unique mechanics to each frame might be neat, but I worry they might completely pigeonhole frames into specific playstyles rather than merely encouraging and rewarding specific playstyles.  No matter what, it should be something that is available early on, at the very latest as soon as the Ascaris is removed.

I'm unsure about nerfing Pizzas, though I wouldn't be opposed to a time limit like Air Support has, maybe three or five minutes between uses.  Zenurik Energy Overflow halfed to 0.5/1/1.5/2 Energy per second.  EV... Please, just do something with it, even if that is removing it and giving Trinity a more interesting and powerful ability.