Dev Workshop: Warframes Revisited

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

15 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I'm the one who devised the mechanic "

I don't want to give too much attention to this Ego thread but I chuckled at this one.

[(XBOX)DevilishSix]

4 hours ago, (PS4)lhbuch said:

Exactly this. The range nerf hurts CC builds which were the ones to be used in higher levels were her 4th does no dmg at all. 

But even with a small range, in lower levels, it will still be possible to kill everything by moving a lot more now. 

they were jumping like crazy in dev stream but as soon as WoF went out, she was dead.  Just jumping around will not keep a character alive for long especially weak frames with no armor and weak shields and health pool.

[NoelleAllogene]

6 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

The bold text above applies to you too then. Afk for profit is the name of the game.

I've been playing this game since... I don't know... update 7, 5 years ago. I don't have to take this game too seriously with most kills and stuff after trying almost everything this game has to offer.

If some new players want to be a hero or something by using Ember and gladly do all the work with WoF and everyone still gets the reward, fine by me.

[ObviousLee]

11 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I'll skip the first part (because we clearly have different opinions, and we seem to be set on them, so let's leave them as is)

But the remaining quoted part:

There is a different between flying like a bird/Jetplane (a la Zephyr) and flying like a bug/Helicopter (Titania).

Zephyr already flies like sort of like a bird/Jetplane (albeit a bit burstier) via Tailwind, in contrast to Titania's more "hovery" style, like a bug/Helicopter, via Razorwing. It fits their designs to a tee (Zephyr is more birdlike, Titania is more faerie-like). And having these differences is a good thing, cuz making them too similar would be far too boringly streamlined, imo.

THAT said, I think the Zephyr rework is good in regards to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th ability. But I think TW and DB could be done differently. Namely:

They could make TW an additional passive, either by;
1) granting her unlimited bulletjumps (just hold/toggle crouch and spam spacebar for multitudes of bulletjumps midair)
or
2) continuous forward flight by holding down the jumpbutton. Note that this is a smoother CONTINUOUS forward flight (more akin to a bird), and not the hovery kind that Titania has.
That said, simply making the ability much cheaper could also work *shrugs*

Then, make DB a POWERFUL aimable engagement/nuking tool. Finisher damage + better heightscaling + aimable to a certain angle (rather than just being straight down). And if it's supposed to remain a part of the TW-merge, letting it trigger by holdcasting midair would be better than requiring to look straight down (that's just clunky).

Add to it that Air Burst could ragdoll enemies IN to the centre (to gather enemies prior to a Dive Bomb) and you have awesome natural synergy!

I was a pilot in the military. I'm very much aware of the difference between hovering and forward momentum based flight. The problem I have is they fit the same thematic almost identically in terms of mechanics and the goal of those mechanics. The argument of "well she already kinda flies so it's good enough" is moot. She doesn't need to "kinda fly", she needs to actually fly. There's literally zero logical reasoning to not allow for this. Now as far as making TW a passive? hmmm i'm not against that honestly. But by the same token the mechanic is already half there, so there's no reason to not finish it. imo merging three abilities into one is the best method as it frees up a slot to make a new unique ability similarly to the air burst ability.

[Neonite]

23 minutes ago, Cryoguard said:

I see where the team is trying to go with the current WoF changes. However, I think the methods are not the strongest currently. The main issue I have is the combination of range reduction and energy drain, and here's why:

1. The range reduction encourages a close combat style for Ember's WoF, but offers no real defensive tradeoffs for this. There are a few solutions that can be applied here. Ember could also get "fire armor" as it ramps up (even if damage reduction isn't introduced, can we at least get a visual reminiscent of that as it ramps up plz and thank you lol), the range could reduce much less drastically, or the energy issue I'm going to mention can be addressed and this can sort of be removed (or adjusted) as a result.

2. So, to start, I like the idea of ramping fire damage AND ramping energy costs. The issue I have, which is going to be an unpopular opinion, is that the energy ramping is too weak. Yes, I said too weak. Currently, Ember's WoF at max efficiency has a channeling cost of .75 energy/second. So, with these proposed changes, it will become 1.5 energy/second.

Why is this an issue? A few channeled abilities that can compare with this are Razorwing (1.25 energy/sec), Fire Walker (1.25 energy/sec), Renewal (.5 energy/sec channeling + .75 energy/sec for each target being healed), and Defy (1.25 energy/sec). For anyone who uses these frames consistently, we know that these abilities are completely manageable WITHOUT any assistance outside energy orbs (including Arcane Energize).

My proposed solution to this is make the energy drain ramp up to the same level as Valkyr's Hysteria (max drain of 3.75 energy/sec with max efficiency). Doing so would make reducing the range to the current level unnecessary (I say that because there are still ways to make this indefinite if you're clever and have the materials to do so), as Valkyr's Hysteria is almost impossible to maintain indefinitely (as was your intention). I feel like a similar solution would fit Ember's WoF as well.

I tried to highlight the main points/comparisons here, and if anyone else has balance suggestions to make this work for DE's intention regarding World on Fire, feel free to leave them as comments for DE to take into consideration.

They WILL keep the range reduction. The nerf was targeting Ember clearing maps with eyes closed

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I don't want to give too much attention to this Ego thread but I chuckled at this one.

check the ultimate.

[Nephalem]

10 minutes ago, dataman88 said:

are you seriously bitter not getting 30 kills? It's just 5000 affinity points (or around 50 focus point, 400 during convergence)

Hes probably a low mr player and complaining about the kills  but in reality if you were to not do nothing as an ember then the mission would be more difficult to finnish or even fail it depending on what it is.Not sayng cuz i main ember but this is the truth of the game.Most of the crybabys literealy do nothing even if you let them.And at the end of the day you get the same rewards,same drop,and you actualy lvl up the gear a lot faster and more efficient.Id rather do an exterminate in 3-5 minutes then wandering around and do in double the time or even triple.Not to mention in the later stages of the game when you got a cosistent amount of gear and frames you will stop caring about the kills and just focus on doing the mission faster and get the materials neded to craft the next set of gear.

Edited February 3, 2018 by NephalemUnlimited

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, Zahnny said:

Maybe that's only because you need to be carried when using those frames.

Man I hope Ember becomes as bad as Mag.



MD shotgun only VS Octavia and Nezha. Do mind that Arca was also nerfed.

[Himenoinu]

Just now, dataman88 said:

are you seriously bitter not getting 30 kills? It's just 5000 affinity points (or around 50 focus point, 400 during convergence)

No. I'm not bitter about 50 focus points loss. But about how Ember's WoF and Banshee's Quake affect the gameplay of others who just don't enjoy afk'ing. I want Ember's strength to not ruin my playing experience (melee Valk in a interception, any class in run-and-gun ones and so on). And a few posts above you can read about Ember's capabilities in end-game missions from an Ember player. The amount of crocodile tears over WoF tweaks are amazing.

To cut these rant ping-pong short, people complaining about WoF update have no reason to. WoF will still be fun-breaking strong for 80% of the available mission types. And that's what I kept trying to point out by making all the Ember/Banshee parallels. As a Banshee fan-boy, I'm happy with Quake getting the boot, but not so happy for WoF getting, virtually, a buff.

[BornWithTeeth]

2 hours ago, Almagnus1 said:

Actually, I know how Ember works just fine...  which is why she's starchart only and not a frame that I feel is tanky enough to take into sorties... even though Firequake WoF can help make her survivable.

Ember is pretty great at Sortie level. I haven't yet done today's Sortie, give me like, I dunno, forty five minutes? I'll get back to you with the mission reports.

 

[rune_me]

Meh, I run Ember with the silva & aegis and use accelerant to increase damage of my melee and she absolutely wrecks enemies. I mean, she dies as soon as someone sneezes at her, but that's part of the charm. WoF is always on, but modded for high power and low range just for some added damage. But in-their-face-melee-them-to-death-hopefully-before-they-kill-you Ember is where its at.

[NoelleAllogene]

5 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

-snip-

Edited February 3, 2018 by dataman88

[Sajochi]

Ok, let's go over why polarize having no percentage scaling on direcr damage is the way it is. Players conveniently forget about the second part of the ability: the direct damage done is dealt out as magnetic damage in a small explosion radius per enemy affected. And before we get into that debate on the damage being pitiful, keep in mind that the aoe is based on the drain, which is not affected by any damage reduction, and then multiplied by a base of 2x, which scales with power strength. Which means in high level missions Mag's potential damage with a single polarize cast grows as enemy spawns get higher. Add a percentage damage to the drain and you're asking for old fist pump of death mag to come back. 

Crush is a good cc. Why? It's one of the few abilities not affected by line of sight. Now when it fails to pick up enemies, that's usually due to ancients or enemies immune to knockdown status, but otherwise it grabs everything in the radius. If you're so concerned about being vulnerable, use some cover. Make it with magnetize, stand behind a box, have Rhino stand in front of you. Plus with higher ranges, being vulnerable is a non issue since nothing should be attacking anyways. 

Only concern i have is that polarize aug will be redundant with crush changes.

[Himenoinu]

6 minutes ago, dataman88 said:

I've been playing this game since... I don't know... update 7, 5 years ago. I don't have to take this game too seriously with most kills and stuff after trying almost everything this game has to offer

Fair enough. I guess the thrill of the hunt wears off a bit in 5 years :D

 

5 minutes ago, NephalemUnlimited said:

Hes probably a low mr player and complaining about the kills

I'm new player, more interested in having fun in the game rather than being efficiently afk'ing. I'm MR 20 and enjoy the idea presented in Alad V's trailer: team work. Team play.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Space Mom said bullet jumps also give damage reduction, WoF is auto target ability just keep moving.

[(XBOX)DevilishSix]

8 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am sorry mister Dublincore, I speak out of a lot of experience with Ember for the last 2 years and am point issues without entering wall of texts.
It is relatively easy to go into a rant about Armor Scaling, eximus units and AoE from enemies, but I assume that everyone is on the same page considering that.
Yet it seems like this is not the case.

 

While Reb is not the top player, she is knowledgeable and experienced enough. She did show us Ember with the changes.

She did show the changes and what happened?  The quick energy drain got the best of her and as soon as WoF went out she died all while jumping around like a crazy person, so we saw it in action and thats why Ember players are upset because the demo of changes was a FAILURE, no range comes no CC comes no survivibility and that was clearly shown in the video.

[Azamagon]

11 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

check the ultimate.

That's similar to Mag's Magnetize, not to Hydroid's Undertow...

[DrakoKnight48]

19 minutes ago, Cryoguard said:

My proposed solution to this is make the energy drain ramp up to the same level as Valkyr's Hysteria (max drain of 3.75 energy/sec with max efficiency). 

Lets not please. I'd prefer her World on Fire ability to have a set drain number and keep it this way. The soul reason I lost interest in Valkyr was the energy drain. It's too harshly energy hungry. With these suggested changes, not only is Ember getting a massive nerf to her range but the energy drain too. She isn't a tank frame like Inaros, Nidus, or Rhino. Ember is a squishy frame meaning she NEEDS the CC range to knock down enemies before THEY have the chance to one shot her (I'm referring to the times I've played MOT solo with Ember or any high level content). 

[MuscleBeach]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Actually, taking issue with the shortsighted range reductions is the proper approach.

They are reducing the Range because they don't like auto clearing missions by just parkouring through the level and having 3 teammates do nothing. I'm aware that this is  mostly lvl 50 and below missions. This is something they don't want to happen, just like they don't want Chroma 1 shotting Teralysts.. Tell me, how do you solve this? Because the only two options I can think of are: 

1. Reduce the range so that not everything is in range to auto die.
2. Remove the damage so that things can't die.

Please tell me any other way you can think of the correct this issue because as far as I can tell, people in this thread don't care about what the devs are trying to fix. 

If you listen to the dev stream, you would have heard them say how WoF not being useful at high levels is a separate issue that needs to be fixed and is unrelated to what these changes are addressing. I don't think they said this about WoF specifically but my point is you're arguing for the wrong things. There's an ability that they (and a lot of the community) feel is unfun and they're doing something about it. Not killing things at high level? Not being able to get in close? Those are balancing issues, not mechanical ones like the change they are making. Though, they're trying to address balance issues as well. 

So yes, you have a point, taking issue with the range is fine. But what are you proposing instead? They remove the easy clearing issue? They're fixing this issue whether you like it or not. So start proposing solutions that fix the issue AND make you happy as an Ember player. 

39 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I'm hoping as they review her other abilities they'll realize that a frame whose entire existence is meant to be a weapon replacement/DPS frame should be able to do impressive damage with her abilities at any level. I get the desire to not have massive wide range AoE abilities like WoF and Quake, but if you're taking the time to do something about that, take the time to make the frame usable and enjoyable in other areas of the game. 

This person gets it. 

2 hours ago, MuscleBeach said:

Instead of more damage (or in addition to it), WoF (or all of ember's ability damage) also deals 1% Finisher damage (or armor reduction) stacking up to the WoF build-up cap. 

Allow WoF enemy cap to slightly increase as it reaches its intensity cap. The cap is probably in there for balance reasons. Considering the skill is changing in a big way, this cap should have another look. 

My idea allows the ability to scale into high levels, addressing one lingering issue (an issue the devs think they fixed in these changes and I agree with everyone that they probably didn't do it well enough). 

The other issue is survivability due to needing to get in closer now. Use Accelerant to temporarily stun in a large area when you see a high threat target. I think this is fine except for the energy cost but the ability does too much to warrant a lower base cost. My proposed solution: Ember's other 3 abilities cost less as WoF gets more expensive. 

[(PSN)SirLongJonBremne]

11 hours ago, Orblit said:

They're halving the ability's radius while doubling the damage + energy cost after a set timer...where's the nerf?

Double DMG doesn't scale, half the range is the size of frosts snow globe unmoded, and double the energy cost on an already somewhat power hungry frame means on one cast of accelerant and you'll be out of energy. Don't get me wrong ember needs a change, but this is def a nerf. 400 to 800 base damage to max of 5 enemies within 7.5m when a level 100 heavy gunner has an ehp of over 3 million and one shots ember in seconds. Even with no defensive mods you can't build that ability to be effective anywhere but maybe low level stuff. Which doesn't fix the problem of her being a one trick pony who is boring as balls to play and has one good ability. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by (PS4)SirLongJonBremne

[DrakoKnight48]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Space Mom said bullet jumps also give damage reduction, WoF is auto target ability just keep moving.

I heard LifeOFRio say something about rolling also gives damage reduction but from my experience, it's not every much.  

[Radagosh]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb phoenix1992:

Isn't saryn worse due to anti Nekros synergy?

hmm if in doubt use more nekros, but yeah didn't think about that u might be right.

[Nephalem]

9 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

Fair enough. I guess the thrill of the hunt wears off a bit in 5 years :D

 

I'm new player, more interested in having fun in the game rather than being efficiently afk'ing. I'm MR 20 and enjoy the idea presented in Alad V's trailer: team work. Team play.

Some players might have fun running an ember wof build.They might enjoy beeing semi-afk talking to clan mates helping them out with info whyle contribuing at the mission.Did you think about that?Everyone has hes own way of enjoyng a game.I prefer beeing efficient with my time and get the best results out of it.You enjoy going ham with mele.You might not se it becouse you don't play ember but as a player who played probably every style of gameplay with almost all of the frames ,the nerfs that ember got is not a buff as you claim it to be and DE trowing around the "Hey ,you got half the range now But Look at this AMAZING DAMAGE  that ember has now" type of info.

Edited February 3, 2018 by NephalemUnlimited

[(PSN)Hanyabal]

May I have a word about Mag changes?

First let me tell you that I like Mag and I used her a lot, mostly because it's not a lazy frame, you actually need to be playing to be successful with her, she is very dynamic and that is a huge plus that out weights her problems for me. Also, I need to clarify that despite her shortcomings I use her for everything and my personal build has proof to be somewhat effective in every mission type but energy reduction sorties. So, I've played her a lot and I play her in all missions types which I believe, gives me the perspective needed to talk about her.

In lower levels (1-20) she works just fine, you can actually speed run a lot of things since all it takes is one pull to clear hordes of enemies. In levels 21-40 you can get away by using a mix of polarize and pull, sometimes magnetize. Things get weird in levels 40-80, pull becomes a re-positioning tool so you can cast magnetize to protect yourself and/or objectives; you can also use polarize to deal faster with tougher enemies. Beyond level 80 (and I mark this point because it's Kuva flood) a mix of polarize and magnetize becomes mandatory, but given how energy intensive it is, you gotta spam pull to get enemies out of your way (ironic, eh? spamming 1 to save energy). This is her gameplay as far as I'm concerned and keep it in mind cos it will be necessary for the discussion.

First, Mag has no 4, last time I use it was like a month ago and it was an accident, has been this way since WF's dawn (Mag was my starting frame) and no amount of shield will change that. I mean, she is the magnetic frame. why isn't her 4 a 360° repel (yeah an utility skill), BUT, with the added option of holding the key to create a 360° pull. This will be thematically consistent (more so than her current 4), it will be very useful, it will be unique and it will  synergize with his kit. Here is a situation, you are in a eximus stronghold and suddenly you are getting swarmed by leachers, you can cast your 4 to give your teammates a respite and respond. Now you are in a defense mission, you can cast the hold version the skill to actually speed the process, much like a fast nova does. In conclusion, I don't like the change, it's a buff yeah, but it won't make anyone use the ability, or you can use it and get killed anyway... and if you don't, it's because the enemies were no threat in the first place and your other skills are better at dealing with them anyway.

Second, Mag has no dmg problems, maybe a bit in levels 40-60 where your pull can't deal enough dmg, even when combined with polarize. The current problem is that to kill these enemies you need to either cast 1 to group, then 2 and then 3 (first 3 and then 2 works too depending on the faction), or cast multiple instances of 2 and then 3, it becomes very inefficient in  both, energy and time. This cahnge also generates another problem, it remarks magnetize as the center piece of Mag's kit, if you don't cast magnetize and polarize, this buff means nothing, but that is the same mechanic as of now. Why not add the a new mechanic, "now shards react to pull causing dmg to enemies in their path", for once, it rewards you for using two abilities, it solves the weird dmg problems in mid levels and add synergy between pull and polarize, and pull and magnetize, without requiring player to go out of their way building massive amounts of Power Strength. Also how cool would it be to actually rend enemies with the shards inside magnetize when using pull, instead to unload an entire clip to cause dmg.

Now, to address the biggest problem Mag has, let's round what she requires: 1- Natural Talent, this is an absolute must, it is the single most important mod for Mag due to her lengthly cast animations, you can't survive without it unless you are camping one room, if you ever intend to leave that room, you need this mod. 2- Vitality, already stated, Mag is squishy and as we all know shields mean nothing when we have massive bleed and toxin procs, btw, never use redirection or any other shield mod or overshield, Mag's base shield is good enough and can be replenished on command (let alone the fact that you have Natural talent for faster cast). 3- Strength, Mag CC is meh, displacements suck as CC, Magnetize is unreliable and already stated that nobody uses Crush, focus on dealing dmg and build P. Strength (don't forget that polarize utility is tied to Strength). 4- Range, even if you are a crazy person that uses Mag for CC, you still need a lot of range 5- Efficiency & Energy, as mentioned above, Mag usually needs to cast several abilities to be effective, she really consumes a lot of energy and unless you have a dependable source of energy you'll need at least Streamline, if you rely on energy pads, you can simply use P. Flow, but you won't do much without either. 5- Duration, this one is weird, if you ever expect to use polarize, you need some duration, at least the base amount, but if you do, magnetize last too much time. Duration is the most flexible stat on Mag but this discrepancy makes no sense, while magnetize can shine on its own, polarize does require to be used in conjunction with magnetize, you want magnetize bubbles to explode relatively fast (most of the time) but then you need to cast a new instance if your duration is too high, and thus increasing the amount of energy needed, I simply use P. Continuity and T. Fortitude to gain some duration without going to high, but I can't stop asking, where is the synergy when the builds for these two abilities go in different directions.

Recap: you need Natural Talent, Vitality, Power Strength, Duration, Efficiency/Energy and Duration. This is the biggest problem with Mag, you can't build her since she depends on every single stat in the game and on top of that she has a very low sprint speed, fortunately her augments are pretty bad and none is useful, so at least you won't be wasting mod slots with those. Taking a look at Loki (best frame), he doesn't care about Power Strength and thus one can go crazy piling Duration on him, one can even sacrifice range (100% gives a decent range on his 4). Now imagine how different bad would it be if you couldn't use Narrow Minded on him, terrible, isn't it?

Changing Polarize to have a fixed duration and making Range affect the pulse speed will fix the problem, right now pulse speed is 7,5m/s, make it 5m/s so if someone builds a 100% range, then the pulse ends up traveling 50m total (assuming the 5s duration) which isn't crazy at all.

TL;DR

- Changes doesn't fix a thing

- 4th ability is as useless as always, rework it pls.

I propose three things: 1- 4th ability to be changed to a 360° repel/pull (tap/hold), 2- make shards react to pull and rend enemies in its path 3- change how Polarize works, give it a fixed duration and in exchange make its travel speed be affected by range.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, kuciol said:

Than adujst a build. Instead of using 145% range like most builds ive seen have use 290% range, you will have to scrifice your dmg but it wasnt worth it anyway vs high lvl enemies.

Lets do some calculation then, going for max range i made an ideal build for ember prime:

https://goo.gl/kmKUJw

In this build we have 42m range, 476 damage, 35 inital cost and 1.35 drain cost.

If we apply DE's promised change we will have 21m range, 952 damage, 35 initial cost and 2.7 drain cost. The problem is that in low levels she will still be a nuke (an expensive one but still) and on high levels she loses all of her survivability.

It also worth noting that this is a build optimised for max range any other build gets even worse thanks to the changes. Those who have used a negative efficiency build now can forget about wof forever.