Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[saradonin]

All these meme threads are like:

She has something I do not, so she must be a b*tch!

Edited March 13, 2018 by saradonin

[Goenndyr]

4 hours ago, Megatron_TheConqueror said:

Someone got more kills than me, so we should nerf their gear. 

This sums 90% of the maiming/slide crit complaints up yes.

Edited March 13, 2018 by God_of_Salt

[Yagamilight123]

hace 7 horas, Vindicus8235 dijo:

Can we please talk about the elephant in the room here?  Frames like Ember get World on Fire nerfed because it basically ruins the game for anyone else trying to play.  That was partially true but only worked up to around level 40 mobs.  Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.  Sorties are a mind numbing bore-fest with a slide attack spammer as there's really nothing left to do since it's a super fast moving screen wide red crit aoe fest.  Please address this egregiously overpowered combo of things for the health of the game.  At the very least cap melee range to a few meters, since you know, it's melee; increase whip and polearm damage to compensate if necessary.  Thanks for your consideration.

And if you "talk about that elephant" in another of the other 10 threads about ... learn to play instead of crying .

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

 

[Yagamilight123]

hace 5 horas, Vindicus8235 dijo:

I stated that the 500m AoE weapon was an exaggeration the first time I mentioned it.  Please refer again to that post for clarification as to the goal of mindcrafting said weapon.

Reducing disposition on a few of the overused whips will not solve the problem.  It will slightly reduce their effectiveness but they're currently so over the top that even using them without a riven at all is broken.

I shouldn't be required to alter my play style, add people to block list or play solo at all times as you and others in this thread have suggested.  I'm not the outlier.  I'm playing the game as intended and within normal power confines.  Slide attackers are not.  They are playing an entirely different game, with an entirely different ruleset and trampling on everybody else as they do it.

Efficient play is great.  Especially in a game like Warframe, it's almost essential!  There must be some ceiling on efficiency though.  Is it ok for the #1 most efficient method of killing to be twice as powerful as the #2 method?  3 times as powerful?  5 times?  10?  How much more efficient than the #2 method is slide attack spam?  There are a lot of variables to consider but it's disingenuous to pretend like slide attack spam in its current form isn't a complete outlier.  If it wasn't so good, I doubt so many would be so passionately and vehemently trying to keep it the way it is.

Saying slide attacking is fine the way it is doesn't actually make it so, as I'm sure you're well aware.  Saying it's broken also doesn't make it so, as I'm well aware.  My argument is that there's more evidence to show that it is overpowered relative to other playstyles in the game than to show that it is in line.

No , people using what games gives them are "playing like is intended" , people crying in the forum are not "playing like intended" , are trying to change the game so the can play like "them intended" , pretty big diffentence . Fine or not is to DE to say it (more likely in the melee rebalance) , the sad is people starting 10 threads of the same topic because their sad skills can deal with someone playing more efficiently . DE  knows how OP or not MS is ....stop crying and adapt to the current Meta .

 

[SenorClipClop]

Specifically on high-range weapons like whips, Maiming Strike paired with Blood Rush and Combo Duration mods becomes so darned powerful that using anything else is far from good by comparison. Given this comparison, Maiming Strike in its current state fits with the likes of things in the game that were scaled down in order to let players feel like they had more options that were viable compared to each other. Lately there's also been a lot of community feedback on Maiming Strike feeling broken, the other key contributing factor to something getting scaled down. Like it or not, Maiming Strike fits the bill of "it's going to get looked at". I wouldn't recommend spending a bunch of plat on it in the near future.

My two cents:

A bunch of mods and spin-to-win? Sure, whatever. Not my cup of tea, but other might drink the stuff. Macros? Not terrible if all you're doing is shortcutting what your fingers can do normally. That's fine.

A Nekros with a whip on Survival missions, running at the wall next to a doorway in a dead-end tile, slide-attacking against the doorframe every 0.5 seconds for the entire mission*? Yeah, that's gotta be addressed. It's far too effective for the level of non-gameplay that it is, which is not okay. That Nekros getting really pissy when you fight through the enemies in the adjoining room and go out to explore the tileset and play the mission as normal? Also not okay. How difficult do you think it would be to change long-reaching melee weapons so that they can't hit through walls?

_{*I have seen this at least six times in the last couple of months. Always a Nekros, always in Survival, always with a whip, usually Atterax or Secura Lecta.}

[Landario]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Vindicus8235:

Can we please talk about the elephant in the room here?  Frames like Ember get World on Fire nerfed because it basically ruins the game for anyone else trying to play.  That was partially true but only worked up to around level 40 mobs.  Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.  Sorties are a mind numbing bore-fest with a slide attack spammer as there's really nothing left to do since it's a super fast moving screen wide red crit aoe fest.  Please address this egregiously overpowered combo of things for the health of the game.  At the very least cap melee range to a few meters, since you know, it's melee; increase whip and polearm damage to compensate if necessary.  Thanks for your consideration.

please use the search function and write in one of the weekly threads, preferable to one with the most replies instead of opening yet another new thread. it really gets boring

[Maercurial]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb SenorClipClop:

Specifically on high-range weapons like whips, Maiming Strike paired with Blood Rush and Combo Duration mods becomes so darned powerful that using anything else is far from good by comparison. Given this comparison, Maiming Strike in its current state fits with the likes of things in the game that were scaled down in order to let players feel like they had more options that were viable compared to each other.

But there are more options, a lot actually, Maiming Strike isn't too powerful by comparison, there are dozens of options (Mesa, Saryn, Equinox, Nova,..just to name a few, the list goes on) to clear a room faster or equally fast at the Level those Players who complain about it are calling it broken. People just like to run Maiming because it's simple and a bit lazier than most of the other options. 

Complaints on the Forum shouldn't warrant a Nerf either, especially seeing as those are usually from inexperienced new Players who didn't realise yet that everything can be op if you compare it to level 30-40 enemies. Additionally, they lack any knowledge of the other options to achieve the same thing and don't have the Mods to do so yet, so they think something is broken when it actually isn't. 

[SenorClipClop]

11 minutes ago, Maercurial said:

But there are more options, a lot actually, Maiming Strike isn't too powerful by comparison, there are dozens of options (Mesa, Saryn, Equinox, Nova,..just to name a few, the list goes on) to clear a room faster or equally fast at the Level those Players who complain about it are calling it broken. People just like to run Maiming because it's simple and a bit lazier than most of the other options

True, but I mean comparing the melee weapon strategy of "long reach, Maiming, BR+BC, nothing but slide attack" to any other melee strategy. Spammalot is stronger by a long a long shot over other melee setups, which "forces" players into a single hardly-variable build and playstyle in order to optimize. Add to that the fact that Maiming's absurd power only occurs from slide attacks and you have a very restricted playstyle.

11 minutes ago, Maercurial said:

Complaints on the Forum shouldn't warrant a Nerf either, especially seeing as those are usually from inexperienced new Players who didn't realise yet that everything can be op if you compare it to level 30-40 enemies. Additionally, they lack any knowledge of the other options to achieve the same thing and don't have the Mods to do so yet, so they think something is broken when it actually isn't. 

You're right, they shouldn't. If Forum whining warranted nerfs, pretty much everything would deal the same amount of damage. What I'm saying is that a large amount of threads about the brokenness of something (right or wrong) often correlates with that something getting looked at. It happened with Tonkor, WoF, Bladestorm and Prism to name a few. So while this slew of poo-pooing Maiming Strike could be worthy criticism or just Forum whining, the sheer amount of it is attesting to something. Keep your ears to the ground, Tenno.

Edited March 13, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[(XBOX)Riknav]

3 hours ago, zetheros1 said:

I like maiming strike + bloodrush combo. Cheese is always a good thing. I pair meme atterax with wukong for cheese with a side of cheese. 

If maiming strike is being nerfed, lets also nerf banshee because all you need to do is 44444444444.

After that, pls nerf equinox.

Then nerf saryn pls.

Zarr is pretty powerful, lets nerf that along with lenz.

Oh yeah, you know what else, hirudo basically keeps you invincible if you use oberon phoenix renewal, wukong, or valkyr.

Oh yea, another good nerf is the new zaw weapons, those things are op af.

You know what else to nerf? Lets nerf glaive throw, that thing can nuke rooms like nothing else.

Opticor has it long coming, along with Lanka. These two weapons are basically what everyone brings to eidolon fights. They're too powerful since they're meta.

I find your lack of lato disturbing!

[An8rchy]

Is this another "I don't have it, Nerf it" thread ?

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

10 hours ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.

Yet another "I don't like this, so it must be nerfed" whiner.

[Deadoon]

Honestly it is quite the broken mod.

It adds a flat crit bonus to the attacks which is stackable with other mods. If it were a simple multiplicative of the base crit it would be no issue and a balanced alternative playstyle.

[Alexter]

Il y a 11 heures, jiminatorx a dit :

maybe they can halve the range double the damage and add a stamina cost. will that work?

A long time ago, we had stamina for melee. It was an horrible thing, breaking all melee gameplay

Thanks to God, DE remove stamina. Don't get it back

 

For Maiming Strike, as someone says : you loose time and energy. MS gameplay is powerful and brainless. Nerf it, and someone will find another powerful and brainless gameplay, and many players will just copy that. And the problem will be back.

I hate playing with Limbo who break completely all stationnary defensive mission. I don't cry for a nerf (except, maybe, with my friend on Discord). Learn to play with that, or play solo

Edited March 13, 2018 by Alexter

[Sqecmi]

12 часов назад, Vindicus8235 сказал:

Can we please talk about the elephant in the room here?  Frames like Ember get World on Fire nerfed because it basically ruins the game for anyone else trying to play.  That was partially true but only worked up to around level 40 mobs.  Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.  Sorties are a mind numbing bore-fest with a slide attack spammer as there's really nothing left to do since it's a super fast moving screen wide red crit aoe fest.  Please address this egregiously overpowered combo of things for the health of the game.  At the very least cap melee range to a few meters, since you know, it's melee; increase whip and polearm damage to compensate if necessary.  Thanks for your consideration.

well, world on fire is still ok, just need a specific build, not a nobrain powerstacks.

banshee ruins game even better,

also equinox still enables afk farm

limbo just afks every defence mission, just care about nullifiers

there are also alot of gimmiks, for example i saw a trinity that ruined my banshee hydron focus farm.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Sqecmi

[(PSN)robotwars7]

this is less of a problem on consoles, as we don't have Macros. we still have slide spammers, but taking away the ability to "spin2win" with minimal button spam ensures that only the most hardcore Spinners can be bothered to do it, rather than anyone with a Macro.

that said, it once again falls down to the golden rule of Public games, which it seems to me like most other Tenno have forgotten: ANYTHING can happen: you could get Leechers, you could get Sliders, you could get toxic individuals, you are signing up for ANYONE'S help when you go public. if these things happen, you can either stay or leave. mentioning it on the forums does nothing, save for the occasional ill-thought out nerf as part of a knee-jerk reaction.

[Mr.SpookSpook]

Someone else's stick hits harder and they are having fun with it? Let's kill their fun! They don't deserve to enjoy the game! Only I do! 

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 9 heures, Eureka.seveN a dit :

So lets ask some mag players what they think [Radio silence]

---------------------

No i forget why, because De nerfs things then proceeds to add things that are even more broken than what was previously nerfed. So please enlighten me as to why not give all melees a unique feature like maiming crit instead of just removing maiming crit

@MagPrime, I think he's talking about you. 

I do play Mag a lot and I have seen many proofs both ig and on the Forums that she can do a very good job even for High level content.When I started playing Warframe 3 years ago, she was used for the Greedy Pull, aka loot grab spam. People only wanted Mag players to do that and nothing else and the few times a regular Mag player without Greedy Pull joined, he would get forced to leave because he was "useless". Then, DE nerfed GP and Sheild Polarize became a spamable Corpus/Corrupted OS that DE also nerfed. Now, people have to learn how to actualy play her to get the max results, which are far from insignificant. 

------------------------------------------

DE never intended to introduce anything broken. They added stuff without thinking about all the details such as what this mod could do with this mod and this one on this weapon. They added stuff, thinking it was good but not OP, but just like Spin-2-win, it's the addition of multiple factors that makes it broken.

Maiming Strike alone isn't such a problem. It gives crit chances on slide attacks, period.

Range isn't completely broken either, it simply adds range to the weapon.

Blood Rush is extremely powerfull, but requires time to build up the counter, some mods to make it last longer and a weapon able to get both a high combo counter and a decent CC/CD to make the mod worth using.

The Atterax is a Whip, one of the weakest weapon type in the game and even if this one is crit viable, it's not necessarely OP, and besides, the Scoliac and Lecta are not Crit viable. It may have a lot of range, a Whip is still pretty weak/average.

Spin attacks aren't OP either. It deals more damage than regular moves, sure, but it's not the best option for every weapon, such as Sparring, Claws, Fists, Daggers and any low range weapon. 

But, if you use all of these things together (Whip+Range+Maiming Strike+Blood Rush+Spin Attack spamming), then you have something broken. It wasn't invented by DE, but by players who deceided to mix all those things together. DE never intended to make something broken, otherwise why would they ever nerf things like WoF, Banshee's RQ, Vex armor, Mag's GP and SP, Exalted Blade, Hysteria, etc.?

[Thundervision]

Releasing and not tweaking Maiming Strike was a stupid decision, putting the same effect to Riven system was a doubled one as if certain part of playerbase didn't make it clear before that they will push any above-good/almost-broken stuff beyond limits to abuse zone. I'd say that the vocal majority of community nowadays ate so many 'candies' and became so spoiled, it kinda deserves a good ol' spanking.

 

But I doubt Meme Strike will be touched, its abusive nature only shines with said classes while helping the mediocre ones, it's either (slide) range or slide damage will be toned down for Whips and Polearms in upcoming melee rebalance. I will be damn surprised if it won't be. There's no perfect timing than this one.

Back then, there was a clear line between possible abuse and using macros to help yourself (to reduce the excessive number of pressings or due to health issues, disability). Now? Now it's pretty damn clear it's only a fracture of % people using it to make it 'a bit easier' to help playing the game, not making a combo of 3 buttons to put a broken combination to regular basis and spamming it for duration of mission looking like a high janitor with a caffeine overdose cleaning all the floors. The amount of exaggerated stuff and circle jerking in threads like this, or people trying to defend it and asking the others to play Solo, makes me so sad. In fact, the part of current community makes me feel bad for devs.

 

Oh, and the special «just go Solo» kind.

Well, let me make it simple: if such players, capable of killing all the stuff they see and in fact aiming for it, come to Public mode or low level regions acknowledging how sensitive the matter of this topic is as well as realizing the others won't have a chance to enjoy the game the way they want (who are you trying to convince you're an innocent player which definitely will stop murdering stuff seeing that the others found themselves a small tile to have fun in w/o you?), then they are the ones who belong to Solo mode. Oh. But they won't, will they? Because it's boring and there's no that many enemies to kill!

«Yep, surprise!»

Well, let me tell you a secret -- this is exactly how the others feel when you come to public missions where others just want to have 'casual' fun and you can't control your selfish instincts (ironically, that's the main reason of many changes and nerfs, because as long as it doesn't became wide-known, the attention to such things is pretty damn minimal). The hypocrisy is strong with some people. On the other hand, childish «hurr... durr. We'll find another meta» behavior is always fascinating. Please, do. You probably think this will piss the developers off, but in reality you're the ones who help to bring a balance to the games

7 hours ago, VortexInfinity said:

DE screwed themselves this time round

They knew it was overpowered yet they release the modifier into rivens.

They acknowledge it was overpowered in devtream 100(scott saying inb4 we nerf the S#&$ out of it) they released the mod during the acolyte event during CHRISTMAs!!.

Now if they nerfed it, plat whales people who sacrificed their christmas are gonna riot.

And the last thing a freemium game business would do is to piss off people whi have shown themeselves to be willing to invest a lot money in the game i.e buy and spend a lot of plat on maiming strike rivens

Precisely. On the first part. That's probably the major problem I have with DE on this matter: they either know or refuse to acknowledge (oh, and the reasons with examples are always given) there is or there will be a problem right until it's too late and problematic topic already gathered own playerbase -- the vocal majority will always ruin the bigger picture leaving a bad taste in others' mouths. DE definitely need to work on this one. Expect the worst and be prepared to isolate and fix the problem before it spreads.

 

[MagPrime]

10 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

So lets ask some mag players what they think [Radio silence]

What to the telos boltace users think [radio silence] 

Yea lets nerf spore too thats a fantastic idea, not fix her 4 or anything not that her spore spam is only "broken" on low armored targets

Oh, I cant dial down the glare in my video game. Let's nerf a weapon to uselessness, lets nerf a bunch of weapons to uselessless and wait a year or two later to buff the weapons that actually needed more attention

 

"Don't forget why those things were nerfed, Voltage. The MS+BR+High Ranged Melees is just as bad if not worst in some cases and no, you'll not force me to play solo or with inexistant friends (because some people don't have friends who play Warframe, you know?) every time I want to do a mission just so I can ignore the problem. "

 

No i forget why, because De nerfs things then proceeds to add things that are even more broken than what was previously nerfed. So please enlighten me as to why not give all melees a unique feature like maiming crit instead of just removing maiming crit

When asking a certain demographic of players for their opinion, you should actually ask them and give them a chance to respond before making a point based on their (lack) of response. 

Mag wasn't nerfed, she was brought up to par with newer frames.  Her abilities were given diverse utility and her functionality has improved, especially since she can gain over 700 energy now, and she isn't a "one trick pony" easyframe for vets or grinders. 

She is viable with melee even, but that's more of a @(PS4)Chel-El area of expertise. 

 

[Megatron_TheConqueror]

After reading all these walls of text, I am starting to see how Mag's nerf was justified and why those melees should be nerfed. 

And along with that they should also nerf Volt's Shield, Harrow's Covenant and Trinity's Blessing. Might as well disable these abilities in Plains tbh because they are too efficient which is resulting in people capturing multiple Tridolons in one night.

I want to do only 1 Tridolon per night, as I don't have mods or gear to do multiple Tridolons, I want DE to nerf the gear used by others, so that they can come down to my level of capturing 1 Tridolon per night. 

;)

[Vindicus8235]

Nice to know there's a melee re-balancing in the works.  I'm sure it will be addressed at that point since this issue isn't just a blip on the radar, it is the whole damned radar screen :D

[vvhorus]

14 hours ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Can we please talk about the elephant in the room here?  Frames like Ember get World on Fire nerfed because it basically ruins the game for anyone else trying to play.  That was partially true but only worked up to around level 40 mobs.  Now slide attack on the other hand, ruins games up to at least 150 and beyond.  Sorties are a mind numbing bore-fest with a slide attack spammer as there's really nothing left to do since it's a super fast moving screen wide red crit aoe fest.  Please address this egregiously overpowered combo of things for the health of the game.  At the very least cap melee range to a few meters, since you know, it's melee; increase whip and polearm damage to compensate if necessary.  Thanks for your consideration.

Got out-damaged again in Hydron, weren't you?

Edited March 13, 2018 by vvhorus

[rune_me]

The way you should really look at whether a mod needs a rework/tweak or not is, how much those that own it also use it. I can't say how much everyone who owns maiming strike use it, only DE has those stats. But personally, I own it and far from feel that it is a must use mod. Yes, for my Atterax, sure, it's always on there. But I have plenty of weapons that doesn't benefit from the mod at all, and I still use those weapons all the time.

The real elephant in the room are mods like serration and split chamber, which are absolutely mandatory for each and every build. Once you have serration, there is absolutely no primary weapon build you can come up with, that won't include it. This makes the mod completely redundant: you could just as well remove a mod slot on every primary weapon and just build the effect of serration into all primary weapons and no one would mind. This should be a clear red flag that there is something wrong with the mod. Not because it's OP (which its not really) but because it is pointless to even have it in the game.

I don't really feel that Maiming Strike is in that place at all. After having acquired it in the last Acolyte event, it has by no means become mandatory for all my melee builds. At all.

Edited March 13, 2018 by rune_me

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

2 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

DE never intended to make something broken, otherwise why would they ever nerf things like WoF, Banshee's RQ, Vex armor, Mag's GP and SP, Exalted Blade, Hysteria, etc.?

Gonna call bull**** on this one augment here. I was present when the initial Resonating Quake augment was released. Old Draco and Ceres being a high level planetary node was available to the playerbase. The initial sentiment from DE about releasing Resonating Quake was that Soundquake by itself wasn’t killing anything, and its purposes was to CC lockdown enemies in place especially for builds spec’d for range that would lockdown enemies at spawn. To address that, Resonating Quake was created and it did both: CC lockdown and kill targets very effectively at range with a higher energy ramp up cost. At the time and even at present day, this mod was very controversial. With its augment mechanic change it still essentially does what was the initial premise of the mod’s entry into Warframe except with more casts and better energy efficiency.

To say that this one mod was NOT intended by DE and was made into a BROKEN MECHANIC by the playerbase is purely bollocks. You’re going to tell me DE wasn’t aware about the damage and range ramp-up that could be made possible with basic and corrupted mods? Seriously?