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(PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

Should TennoGen creators be allowed to use Prime models, deluxe skins and even make changes to existing WF mesh for their work?

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I've personally always found it puzzling as to why TennoGen allows you to change the model of the helmet, but not the skin. Only the texture of the skins can be edited and they are always the base frames. Not the Primes or the Deluxe skins. Why is that and do you think they should be allowed to use and edit the meshes like they do with helmets?

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I would assume it is because they don't want people to have full control over what a frame looks like. Currently, if somebody has a tennogen skin on Mesa, you can still tell it is Mesa, but it they were able to change around all the meshes than you could no longer tell.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)ultimategamerjr said:

I would assume it is because they don't want people to have full control over what a frame looks like. Currently, if somebody has a tennogen skin on Mesa, you can still tell it is Mesa, but it they were able to change around all the meshes than you could no longer tell.

Looking at Deluxe skin for Oberon and Trinity right now because they stand out. Trinity's Deluxe skin with a few changes regarding the skirt and colors could've been used for Mag and no one would have bat an eye but now that it belongs to Trinity it sounds weird if it was to be used for a Mag. Like for real what does it matter when even the Dev's are making weird looking skins that distort the proportions associated with a Warframe.

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Just now, (XB1)ultimategamerjr said:

I would assume it is because they don't want people to have full control over what a frame looks like. Currently, if somebody has a tennogen skin on Mesa, you can still tell it is Mesa, but it they were able to change around all the meshes than you could no longer tell.

I can't really tell what frames some of the in-house deluxe skins belong to honestly, so it wouldn't make much a difference xD

I'm sure they'd be some guidelines for editing the mesh though. Still doesn't explain why they can't use unedited basic deluxe skin or Prime models.

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7 minutes ago, luigislam said:

Looking at Deluxe skin for Oberon and Trinity right now because they stand out. Trinity's Deluxe skin with a few changes regarding the skirt and colors could've been used for Mag and no one would have bat an eye but now that it belongs to Trinity it sounds weird if it was to be used for a Mag. Like for real what does it matter when even the Dev's are making weird looking skins that distort the proportions associated with a Warframe.

The difference between tennogen skins and deluxe skins is that every frame only has one deluxe skin. This means that there is only 3 possible meshes in game (Prime, Deluxe, Normal), while if they allowed tennogen creators to create/change meshes there would be an infinite number of different meshes.

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I can't really tell what frames some of the in-house deluxe skins belong to honestly, so it wouldn't make much a difference xD

I'm sure they'd be some guidelines for editing the mesh though. Still doesn't explain why they can't use unedited basic deluxe skin or Prime models.

I do agree that they should have access to any currently existing meshes though, as long as they change it enough.

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44 minutes ago, (XB1)Kurru mitsumi said:

I would love to see what they could do work Saryn prime!

Personally I have had enough of Saryn cosmetics, currently she has way too many compared to the others.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)zeratul____12 said:

Personally I have had enough of Saryn cosmetics, currently she has way too many compared to the others.

and people complain when a tennogen artist wants to make something for excal.

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I think they should definitely be allowed to reskin deluxes and primes, but not change the meshes.

Becomes something more than just a skin then.

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Leaning to 'no' regarding the meshes, but the other stuff?

Some warframes look better compared to their vanilla, deluxe, primed or non-primed versions, for example, I'd really, really like to see TennoGen based on Trinity Prime, Oberon Prime, Hydroid Prime in the first place (not just enabling/disabling Prime parts) rather than their vanilla versions, or TennoGen'd Banshee Soprana.

 

At the very least, having both vanilla and Prime versions available for creators would be awesome.

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Don't you think it's just a matter of protecting their intellectual property? If they made every single model in the game available for download, eventually somebody would just steal the whole thing.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)zeratul____12 said:

Personally I have had enough of Saryn cosmetics, currently she has way too many compared to the others.

Says the person with the poster boy profile pic, who for the record has more skins and helmets than any warframe... 

14 minutes ago, Valiant said:

I think they should definitely be allowed to reskin deluxes and primes, but not change the meshes.

Definitely like to see this. I take it as they wouldn't be backwards compatible though, so you'd have own the said prime warframe to apply the skin.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I've personally always found it puzzling as to why TennoGen allows you to change the model of the helmet, but not the skin. Only the texture of the skins can be edited and they are always the base frames. Not the Primes or the Deluxe skins. Why is that and do you think they should be allowed to use and edit the meshes like they do with helmets?

This is about Branding and earning potential.

PAs are the bread-and-butter Revenue Earners in Warframe with their signature brand being Primes.

 

Tennogen artists have to stear clear of metallics that resemble Primes, etc, because they don’t want players investing in cheaper altenatives “in lieu of” buying PAs.   And they don’t want the brand getting convoluted, either.

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21 minutes ago, Man_In_Suitcase said:

Says the person with the poster boy profile pic, who for the record has more skins and helmets than any warframe... 

Touche 

 

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Helmets, weapons and syandanas all require minimal rigging (usually none), new body meshes require rigging against a skeleton which is a completely different skillset and not supported by the current tooling. It would be a lot of work for DE to get the tooling into a state to accept bodies and rigging.

Also it would require very different skills from the creators who would need to consider deformation in their low-polly mesh design, (retopo-ing a zbrush sculpt is a very specific skill completely aside from the usual skill in sculpting). Then DE would be expected to validate each new low-poly mesh across all possible animation sets.

So it's loads of one-off and ongoing work for a "not worth it" return that only a very few creators would be able to produce results that DE would approve.

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I'd love to use some of the Hydroid skins but they all give the Prime those terrible fat legs

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53 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Helmets, weapons and syandanas all require minimal rigging (usually none), new body meshes require rigging against a skeleton which is a completely different skillset and not supported by the current tooling. It would be a lot of work for DE to get the tooling into a state to accept bodies and rigging.

Syandanas do require rigging. At least as long as they move. But it's probably just a three bones in a straight line, so it's obviously not hard to do.

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for some frames i think Prime versions should be allowed on tennogen...such as Mirage..I LOVE the way Mirage Prime looks but HATE how normal mirage looks due to those obnoxious upper leg bits coming from her knees...thus while the few tennogen skins look great, I just cant stand the rather large model change.

Banshee is another one that comes to mind (I love her prime model)

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The biggest reason that they don't allow changes to the mesh of the body is how much extra work it would require DE to do.
Unlike a helmet that doesn't move much, DE would have to test the new skin against the large amount of animations, idle stances, and everything else to make sure that the new mesh works correctly and doesn't stretch or scrunch oddly and most importantly doesn't have tears and gaps in the model.  Then comes all of the re-rigging of the various armor pieces and syandanas to fit the new mesh.
This is a ton of work for DE to do.  And honestly for not that big of a return.  Its a ton of extra testing before any of those skins can make it into the game.  Add into that the completely different skill set it would take of the artists and I just have a hard time seeing the work be worth it.
The reason DE allows people to change the helmet meshes is because of how simple they are, how they don't have to be tested against a large amount of animations, and how they don't need to worry about re-rigging cosmetics to work with the new mesh.

TL;DR: Far, far too much work and not nearly enough potential ROI.

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Primes don't actually have unique models, they just have extra bits tacked on that are like pre-installed, custom fit armor pieces you can't remove from the skin.  Valkyr Prime is 90% covered in such an addition to represent the layer of "armor" her default skin lost during experimentation.  You can see the difference taking up a non-default, non-prime skin, like Valkyr Graxx, and toggling prime additions.

As for the deluxe skins, it would be pretty nifty for tennogen creators to work with those, but I'd sooner expect them to be allowed to create actual armor pieces finally.  Could do with opening up every option for weapons skins too.  Might get some of the older grineer weaponry to not look like rotten hotdogs.  Or you know, they could be reskinned to another theme, like Argonak looking Tenno or Corpus in origin.

 

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Change prime and deluxe textures, sure, but meshes? Not so much. It would take a while to get them in game. Making the rig work on every new mesh is time consuming. And people already complain about the time DE takes to do stuff (for certain things) so nah.

I would to see some prime frames. Plenty that can become nice with added textures to prime parts.

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I think giving the artists more freedom would be nice, but that's entirely DE's decision, and at the end of the day changing meshes might interfere with DE's design Philosophy. personally I am an avid and loyal supporter of Tennogen and I believe that artists are already putting out great stuff. just today I bought the new Liset Skin and the Overload Skin for the Sybaris: both beautiful designs IMO. we have some extremely talented people that have made amazing skins under current limitations, so even if nothing changes, I still have full confidence in Tennogen artists.

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23 hours ago, rune_me said:

Syandanas do require rigging. At least as long as they move. But it's probably just a three bones in a straight line, so it's obviously not hard to do.

The cloths sims are a completely different thing, DE do all of that themselves so there is not need for tooling changes. It's a very different thing compared to rigging a biped for minimal deformation.

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20 hours ago, Littleman88 said:

Primes don't actually have unique models, they just have extra bits tacked on that are like pre-installed, custom fit armor pieces you can't remove from the skin.  Valkyr Prime is 90% covered in such an addition to represent the layer of "armor" her default skin lost during experimentation.  You can see the difference taking up a non-default, non-prime skin, like Valkyr Graxx, and toggling prime additions.

This isn't true, every prime uses a completely unique model that may or may not share some aspects of the non-Prime sculpt it was based on. You can tell this by the fact that may Primes have differing geometry even on areas that are covered with the same UV's as the non-Prime mesh

The fact that some prime have additional mesh sections compared to the non-prime does not prevent the whole composite geometry being unique.


"Toggling Prime additions" Just switches the whole mesh to the prime version or to the non-prime version, keeping the texture set from the skin, where ever the prime mesh has matching textures sets.

 

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