Melee: Present and Future goals!

[(PSN)Zero_029]

I'm sure its been said in this sprawling topic but I feel DE should look into the mechanics that God of War 2018 uses in its melee combat.

I will elaborate before the playerbase tears me apart.

In GoW the weapons all have a feeling of "weight" to them, as well a feeling of "impact" to them, and the combos reflect this & Kratos' own movements reflect the weight.

It makes the combos feel really good, as the player feels empowered & the difference between a light & heavy attack is night & day.

Kratos' Leviathan Axe FEELS like its a heavy blade. Heavy attacks swing slower but the charge up for them plus the impact makes the weapon feel properly heavy.

Also it justifies the massive damage dealt by a heavy attack because of the skill required to time the hefty blow.

Currently in WF Heavy Blade archtype weapons are fast & furious like dual swords/light one handers. It's jarring & its why Heavy Blades are one of Warframe's dominate weapons, they have reach but move as fast as light weapons without reach.

Also, and IMPO this is a BIG thing Warframe needs. In GoW most enemies are staggered/flinch from melee hits, even light hits.

The flinch both adds realism to the combat as no melee blow would be shrugged off but it also allows players to time their combos & sometimes cancel a combo in favor of a charged up Heavy Blow/Finishing Blow (depending on circumstances).

Now enemies don't just take the damage, heavy enemies will power through combos/built up a resistance to being spammed by light hits, some enemies will parry the player completly opening up the player to a punishing retaliatory attack/combo of their own.

WF could really grow from this. As current melee enemies pose little threat, but once they can block & parry they will require more thought from players.

Another important thing: Parrying, & Counterattacks.

In GoW a well timed Block will parry. But the parry window is MUCH better than Warframe's current parry function also players can of timed well use a parry while the enemy is mid combo. This allows the player to break free & retaliate.

I am not saying:

"Copy GoW"

I am saying that it's combat was done very well. It has combos that adhere to what DE hopes to turn to (Light & Heavy Attacks, Simple yet fluid combo inputs) but it also has better refined sub-mechanics that the WF melee systems could benefit from. If anything it should be analyzed for inspiration/concept ideas.

[nerfinator6]

On 2018-05-12 at 4:39 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

via GIPHY

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.

The melee review is taking the longest. It has the most complexity - you can equip Melee, use combos, channel, stealth kill, hit multiple targets, and so on. Removing the clear 'spin to win through walls' is our first step in this plan of making all things melee engagement better.

The first change melee will see before it's broader review is a change to how melee attacks work. The coming change:
 

• Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

I can understand removing it, but you also need to look at why people do that. Most of the time they're farming for stuff or doing extended survival runs. I personally do that when farming derelict missions for mutagen samples, an issue you still adamantly REFUSE to address or fix (I still haven't researched the hema thanks to your impartialness on the issue). As for extended survival runs, people will just swap to other cheese options, stealth frames being one of the more obvious ones.

[(PSN)jockhotty]

Well as one on the newer more important ps4 players, Im not sure I think the initial post talk is such a good idea., Since ive not had much time to read through all the 'stuff'; and what i say is important. I think getting rid of stances and channeling is unwise. It took me quite awhile to figure it out on my own, no matter how you ask you get so many incorrect statements in chat and even online forums are...."whatever". ANyway, quickly its not really quite clear or easy to understand what exactly and how exactly to use these things. Anyway  a trophy style path would usually solve that, people will move high water to get a trophy done and will spend a ton more time trying to learn out how to do "it" that said a better codex or obvious and easy to use and read explanation for a person with the mind of a four year old.. I do not think you should melee through walls, but i do not think using a long pole in a small tunnel should not be allowed totally for fun purposes,if you have to spend that much time to chose a melee weapon because if you cant wield your melee toys because of the size of your path thats a huge NO NO.NEXT channeling is a good idea and its built into tons of mods so it seems foolish to change it dramatically, just teach it better and implement it most smartly to balance it. YOu have punch through on guns, maybe restrict your concern with respect to that with a punch through stat or mod only type thing. ANyway stances, they are a little cool but i think they might be more useful if you had some sort of more obvious elemental effect or more pronounced damage due to the stance. I had a time sorting out how to use them effectively and learned to Really appreciate all the work that goes into them and some are truly amazing. Maybe that is the problem though, some stances just barely seem noticeable for some of the odder weapons and some stance just dont seem to be worth the bother that i wonder if there is a bug, maybe that is behind their lack of use or real appreciation??? The complexity of the system though is behind the intrigue and power of them , such a shame to pass that off. Well i have plenty more i could say and plenty to add to but i wanted to put this out in hopes it makes a difference in going forward w a different system. Ill be happy to argue or articulate much more carefully or clearly my points and suggestions, and as i have time maybe respond to what others have said. OHsince it might matter, a ways back, a more famous well known lady player once called me feckless. I did not forget and you were mistaken about the particular situation.

[CaptainJLP]

Some melee weapons will be effected by this (like zenistar), I will name these:

• Caustacyst  (Sludge)
• Zenistar (Disk)
• Twin Basolk (Teleport, With Rift Strike)
• Jat Kusar (Explosion attack)
• Sancti Magistar (Heal Wave)
• Synoid Hellicor (Inability to channel for specter)
• Redeemer and Sarpa (Charge attacks a.k.a shoot will only benefit from the combo counter and might not build it up)
• All Glaives (Might be the only attack that benefits from the combo counter)

Some abilities will be effected by this:

• Zenurik's passive "Inner Might"

All exodia arcanes related to channeling will be changed.

[(PSN)jockhotty]

Wow! I am not happy about the arcanes I have them exactly as i like and they compliment my usual frames and my styles perfectly right now and they are mad fun for me. I have all those weapons listed but havent really employed them where they would be more useful than my other combinations for most special things. I am not sure  on the Basolk, ill have to look. But, Ii would think that would make quite a few people that rely on them for those special situations unhappy. It also seems a little strange after the new mod sets from POE I have them all throughout my stuff, also perfectly as  possible. I dont even brag about them in the slightest to avoid nerf patrol police, but since these things are out there now.......... Boooo. And ill say no more on that.

[Urlan]

On 2018-05-24 at 3:55 PM, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

I wasnt aware of Venka Primes passive, I know I should wait until this is released, but the new combo counter feels like it will be as annoying as channeling even if its only 150 hits to 4x... I dont think a single power hit is much payoff.

Considering that Galatine used to have a charge attack until it was removed and then a channeling bonus when channel attacking that was removed later, I wouldn't count on it staying or converting to the new melee mode unless players keep it in the dev's minds and give good suggestions for it's replacement.

For life strike, I figure it will be tied to channel blocking.

[dragonoftheeast]

hold up i feel the need to ask but what is going to happen to lifestrike is it getting changed to a flat lifesteal with channel or is channel mode staying and not a toggle cause honestly some weapons are kinda made by that mod.And i would hate to see melee get the nekros treatment where it become more or less a thing of it looks cool but may as well shoot them than waste the time.

[IAmTheFutureFlash]

hi DE,

it may be too late

 but I would like to tell you that its so easy to make combo fashion with melee by this idea I'm going to tell you

- mouse wheel scroll up/down : switches between melee stances mod and stance styles that appears behind the combo meter (2 stance meters)

- mouse wheel scroll down : scroll down 1 time and the combo style change, scroll 2 times the combo in the stance mod change to another style while you still in the same stance mod

 

- melee combo stances doesn't need "E E wait E E E anymore because sometimes its hard to control with high attack speed build "... so when you switch the combo stance by scroll up/down it continues to the end rapidly without hold or wait and it keep repeating the stance over and over again until you change melee stance with scroll up/down

- mouse right button click : blocks damage + channeling at same time, and channeling also works when using melee attack

- left mouse button click : switches very fast from melee to secondary/primary and fire bullets, if you want to switch from secondary/primary to melee you just click E is the easiest way or mouse wheel scroll up/down (choosing stances) or click right mouse button to block damage

- click F button : switches very fast from secondary to primary without any mods, like for example [speed holster] mod

- hold 5 button " DMC devil trigger (^w^) " : triggers the true power of the tenno within the warframe and it makes the warframe look like "Goku ultra instinct + warframe eyes glowing................ it requires max energy pool to activate it for 20 seconds (basic duration without mods) and it deals x2 damage with anything you use

 

this is a cut from my post

read my post about this in fan concepts please

[HIGHDAMAGE]

those little objects/decorations all over the tile sets are making me sad to use mele ever again, even at the plains since when does those little cardboard trees & bushes count as walls 

give mele some innate punch through tho

why penalize everyone experience just coz some ppl did spam spin camp

 

[IAmTheFutureFlash]

2 minutes ago, HIGHDAMAGE said:

those little objects/decorations all over the tile sets are making me sad to use mele ever again, even at the plains since when does those little cardboard trees & bushes count as walls 

give mele some innate punch through tho

why penalize everyone experience just coz some ppl did spam spin camp

 

lol its ok, DE will fix this, we know that just wait a bit

[sbouabid]

Hello;
can you make sure that the range of melé is displayed;
a big thank you to the whole team

[ZAXNIGHTMARE]

might be late for give an opinion, but this is a trully relieve for most of users, spin2win was even worst than ember's WoF, and yes, i am an ember user and most of my kills were stolen for a high ranged spin2win users, even in high tier enemy levels we're annoying running all over the map killing enemies (survivals) or making the rest of the squad doing nothing as used to be with mirulor sombination on exterminate missions.... basiically a killing fun tenno

hope that """""meta""""" spin2win got fairly nerfed as many things were nerfed

[Kinetos]

17 hours ago, IAmTheFutureFlash said:

- mouse wheel scroll up/down : 

Etc.

please keep in mind some people use scroll wheel to select powers, and some people reconfigure their controls away from default so naming keys by physical letter isn't as useful as naming the function. Also controllers/consoles have to be able to do the same functions.

[IAmTheFutureFlash]

5 minutes ago, Kinetos said:

Etc.

please keep in mind some people use scroll wheel to select powers, and some people reconfigure their controls away from default so naming keys by physical letter isn't as useful as naming the function. Also controllers/consoles have to be able to do the same functions.

I found this the easiest and fastest way to switch between stance mods and stance styles, also it can be changed by the player if he find its hard to control, the key bindings I choosed doesn't impact any other key in the game, except switching chat box to be by clicking ENTER

[(PSN)jockhotty]

I wanted to chime in again because, i was wondering at, least on ps4, it seems when i change characters and a zaw that uses a different strike/stance there seems to be some sort of problem inititally like a hybrid between stances where more advanced stuff doesnt quite to seem to work right or be effective, whether it is the combo counter or something i notice mostly in a sorti where of course i dont have a second to look at anything more closely. Ill try to save or stream my sortie for review but i always usually like to use specific frames for most sorties so i also dont usually switch characters and zaws for sorties that often...... but in the interest of looking into this maybe it can point to something that could help solve something else that makes people complain or exploit. But has anyone had some sort of similar behavior????

[(PSN)Zero_029]

4 hours ago, (PS4)jockhotty said:

I wanted to chime in again because, i was wondering at, least on ps4, it seems when i change characters and a zaw that uses a different strike/stance there seems to be some sort of problem inititally like a hybrid between stances where more advanced stuff doesnt quite to seem to work right or be effective, whether it is the combo counter or something i notice mostly in a sorti where of course i dont have a second to look at anything more closely. Ill try to save or stream my sortie for review but i always usually like to use specific frames for most sorties so i also dont usually switch characters and zaws for sorties that often...... but in the interest of looking into this maybe it can point to something that could help solve something else that makes people complain or exploit. But has anyone had some sort of similar behavior????

I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say...

I know Combos on PS4 have issues/sometimes fail even when done right.

No idea about Combo Counter I've never had issues there. =/

[hooperinius]

Melee combos are problematic on every platform, it's too bad we can't turn them into macros on PC and then bind them to whatever buttons we want.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

I hope linking my topic here is helpful.

[(PSN)jockhotty]

On May 29, 2018 at 4:12 PM, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say...

I know Combos on PS4 have issues/sometimes fail even when done right.

No idea about Combo Counter I've never had issues there. =/

Trying to describe the time period and circumstances where the new stance belonging to the new zaw seems to be a hybrid ( at least animation) between the old and new stance and the damage is either less or delayed. There are combo duration timer mods equipped so you would expect to have max damage and not a decreased damage because the combo timer is dropping out

[HisanaHakuto]

Looking Good ☕

Time to kill Them not hit the wall

[brokensaintvxvx]

On 2018-05-30 at 7:34 AM, hooperinius said:

Melee combos are problematic on every platform, it's too bad we can't turn them into macros on PC and then bind them to whatever buttons we want.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.  I would actually pose that they're rather simplistic by comparison to games like God of War and general beat'em ups.  I'm not against the idea of getting macros for long executing combos for people who have lesser hand dexterity or issues with their hands, but macros are exploitable.

[aNNomaNd3r]

On 2018-05-11 at 8:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

• We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
• Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
• FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
• Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 
• Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
• Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
• Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

 

 

Just like the death of ZorenCoptering, all things which spin to win must come to an end. The Dev createth the maiming strike primed range meta, now the dev taketh away! I'm just happy something is finally being done about it. Thank you DE!

One thing I would like retained, would be the "Rich Get Richer" aspect of melee, which the proposed combo changes do not bode well for. It's kinda fun to ramp up your damage and crits, and I do not agree with "spending" combo on big hits. Melee needs to scale for higher levels, but if you lean too heavily towards spending combo on "uber hits", you reach the exact same problem you talked about in a recent dev stream. Enemies die very quickly in warframe, and utilizing Coup De Grace attacks, expending all combo, would often mean a demonstrable portion of damage going to "waste" if used on fodder. You create a problem where at higher levels, light attacks do not have damage to scale to have an impact, so serve only purpose to prop up heavy hits, which you would rely on for killing blows.

I am excited to see more emphasis on melee combos though. There's a lot of fun and depth to be had in learning, aiming and executing combos on enemies. Shattered village anyone? Curmudgeoning your way through a succession of enemies is way more fun than Kylie Minogue-ing.

Please be more liberal with adding neatly timed combos, and perhaps give us better multipliers for combos? Swinging the balance of damage back in favour of the combo players as opposed to the spin2winners is welcome.

Isn't it about time we got Multi-Strike mods for melee? DE pls.

 

Please don't break the dual zoren either, they're ridiculous and I'd like them to stay that way <3

 

 

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

I think building combo should build a separate resource to be used for charged/heavy attacks (I've stated it prior, and others have stated it as well).

^Riffing off the above, that would keep the stat increases of a combo count separated and not treated as an opportunity cost.

Melee weapons NEED to have passives if for no other reason than to play into the lore.  The Tenno are master craftspeople, "descended" from the technologically brilliant Orokin.  Current in-game weapon designs and lore have fed my perception that as unique as frames are (possessing passives and powers that are awesome) so would their weapons.  In the spirit of the Tenno's samurai/ninja/mythical influences it makes sense to me to have weapons that mirror the power (beyond stats) of the Tenno that wield them.  Plus, it serves as an outlet to offset melee changes and would breathe new life into "outdated" or unpopular weapons.

Just my opinion.

[Xymos]

Melee 3.0: New mechanics explained
Hello, people, this is my feedback from the melee 3.0 thread and what they plan to do, so let's go for parts.

 

Combo Counter (Reworded to Fury and/or Rage system)

• Fury is the equivalent to the current combo system, instead of a counter, it's a bar that fills up to 3 times.

Each bar gives a set amount of buffs to the charged attack, applies all channeling mods, fills much more quickly and it's spent in a massive, powerful and unique attack. 

Example: (Individual effects also scale of Fury)
 Hammer: Lift the hammer and swings against the floor to produce a massive conic shockwave that inflicts forced impact procs and X amount of damage.
 Fists: Quickly prepares a foward punch that produces a explosion in a conic area, dealing X amount of damage and sending all enemies flying.

Example:

• LVL 1 Fury: 200% damage, 25% extra status and crit chance, applies channeling mod (Life Strike: 10% lifesteal)
• LVL 2 Fury: 300% damage, 50% extra status and crit chance, applies channeling mod (Life Strike: 25% lifesteal)
• LVL 3 Fury: 400% damage, 75% extra status and crit chance, applies channeling mod (Life Strike: 50% lifesteal)

 

• Rage on the other part uses the new block system and it increases all damage dealt up to a certain amount. (1.0x to 3.0x damage)

Actively blocking gives about 5%/s rage and perfect blocking give about 25% rage. Every 10% of total health lost gives the same equivalent of Rage amount.
Dealing, receiving or blocking damage starts a delay of about 5 seconds, which after it ends, it drains about 5%/s rage. This encourages active blocking and attacking in a seamless way.

 

Block

It uses a source on its own instead of using our energy, it's about 10 full seconds of blocking, represented in a small bar in the middle of the screen, and it recharges in about 5 seconds. Dealing damage increase the recovery speed and finisher gives a full recharge.
You can do a perfect block, which is a small window timed block after it connects to an attack. 

• Perfect Block: 1 second 75% damage reduction, AOE stun, starts shield regeneration and gives the possibility to do a Counter Attack

Counter Attack: 200% damage attack, small AOE and inflicts LVL 1 Fury stats.

 

Channeling

Old channeling no longer is going to be used, so I propose that currents mods that affect channeling are instead transferred to the Rage and Fury system with they respected rebalanced stats. 

Example: 

• Life Strike - Gives the charged attack "X" to "Z" amount of Life Steal based on the amount of Fury spent. Fury gain is decreased by about "X" amount (25% <?>)
• True Punishment - Increases Critical Chance "X" of Fury empowered attacks. Decreases Fury gain by "X".
• Reflex Coil - Increases Fury gain by "X" and Rage gain by "X"

 

Aerials Attack

It would be nice if we could perform basic combos that suspends us in the air while doing so like Bullet Glide, so we can properly fight aerials or big enemies with ease and more fluidity.
Slams attacks look really good so no opinion on that other good work!

 

Timed Recovery (Innate Handspring)

Simple and auto-explanatory, the core part of the gameplay should include a "perfect evade" which when you hit "roll key" or "jump key" the moment you touch the floor, you stand up right after that, giving a sense of skill and counterplay. Failing to do so will just play the regular animation.
This could also give a 25% damage reduccion for about 1 second during and after the animation.

 

Animations

One of the biggest problem Warframe as are the animations, they are for the most part clunky, unreliable and out of sync. 
A very important aspect of a good animation is the consistency of them, the response time should be standardized and fixed instead of what we have now.

Another very important point is that all melee animations should have a small degree of inclining, so this enables the possibility to hit the floor or slightly above us enemies more easily. A small X° amount of spine inclining should be enough I think.

I think that's all for now, feedback would be very appreciated!

Thanks for reading!
 

[seprent]

On 2018-05-27 at 5:52 PM, Nakremy said:

Which of the following is more likely to happen to Life Strike?

A) Life strike will now require a heavy attack to function. Build up that combo meter before you get that tasty health back!

B) Operator mode can now somehow toggle channeling mode for warframes, forcing you to perform an extra action or two with the occasional dizziness, just to heal with life strike! Fun!

C) Life strike is removed from the game and replaced with Primed Healing Return! Tragic!

D) Sentinels and Pets now do the Life Striking for you with a new mandatory mod, and it has a 30 second cooldown! What's going on?!

A: we don't know we will have to wait for more context 

B: Arcane from quills already do this but just heal you also blocking = channeling did you read the workshop post?

C Doesn't HR have 10 ranks already what we gonna do make it 20? also i doubt they remove it from the game it will probably block to activate channel attack as normal unblock to turn off

D: Pets already do this with a hunter recovery with no CD sentinels already do this with medi-ray with a CD and you can heal pets with pack leader on your melee 

E: i found your post slightly funny if not also abit pessimistic but it was a good balance