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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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1 hour ago, HeartPurity said:

s it delivered in the latest patch now? I don't see any differences yet.

The vast bulk of the melee rework is still internal.

Something that big would DEFINITELY be in the patch notes.

Edit: Important Clarification!

Quote

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

That's live as of today. Everything else is still pending.

Edited by MirageKnight

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hace 5 horas, (PS4)marcellusg90 dijo:

Reload button is unused. Why not make that the interact/stealth/finisher button that can also be used during combos instead hold, pause and directional inputs.

I had not thought about it and you are absolutely right, it is a simple idea that would give a quick solution to the problem.

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21 minutes ago, sechedinquechofanchofan said:

I had not thought about it and you are absolutely right, it is a simple idea that would give a quick solution to the problem.

They are probably reserving it for the gimmicky 'sword + gun' mode.

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1 hour ago, sechedinquechofanchofan said:

I had not thought about it and you are absolutely right, it is a simple idea that would give a quick solution to the problem.

Or just the context interact button. But at least don't bind it to the reload keybind. If not the context button, make it an entirely new binding that just happens to default to the same key reload defaults to.

But context interact would be better, because it is available in melee and gun modes. Make a new melee mode only binding for finishers and now you can't finisher while holding a gun.

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On 2018-05-13 at 12:22 PM, Extroah said:

I'm a melee only player,so yeh. I dont use over the top range builds, but i never had problems ^^ But they will buff melee damage significantly since they are getting rid of the buffs from the combo counter, so enemies should die even faster at higher stages, bumping up the efficiency.

I'm just quoting you to say that my valkyr is completely irrelevant in elite onslaught now b/c not only walls and objects she cant even hit through body corpse, saryn and equinox still nuke everything with ease. Dont you supporters think this is such a great change and make people stay away from the meta now 🙂 

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proposal:

spin by not hitting

defensless

Seems like a lot of action games

sorry I'm poor at English.

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Post 20.22.02 Feedback

I didn't want to write anything before playing with my melee, post- 20.22.0 hotfix, as it'd be unfair to make complete assumptions, based on 'someone else said'. I was fearing that removing ability of melee to hit through anything would simple be too much. Those fears are confirmed - currently, due to the 'update' of no-hitting through walls and objects' sometimes I don't hit, even when I have a clear sight of the enemies. Mind you, I am not a whip-user, only whip I ever used was Secura Lecta to help newer players farm credits, so the testing was not done with a whip, but rather, a polearm of my choice. The lack of punch-through & unability to hit through objects at all, altogether makes melee feel much clunkier, and also unreliable, as again, I wasn't hitting enemies when I clearly should have.

I think easiest solution would be to limit hitting through the walls, rather than take the ability of punch-through altogether - I understand the desire of wanting to remove the largest offender, hitting right through the walls. Less clutter, that the game needs to check, therefore removing the 'wonky' and unreliable feeling.  But, leave hitting through objects untouched. I don't know how that's going to affect the cases of enemies spawning in the walls - this does happen, and it will leave melee users still at disadvantage. DE no-doubt knows they have purely melee players - people like me started and played the game purely for the melee gamestyle, so this, as far as I go, stings, but still would be agreeable/acceptable at least on some level.

This change, when coupled up with the rest of them (decreasing range + removal of combo multipler damage bonuses/scaleability from normal attacks & reliability on 'heavy' attacks), will really throw melee as we know (and in many cases) enjoy, out of the window. Not sure how I feel about it Actually that's a lie, it really makes me feel unhappy, as the very way for me to enjoy the content of the game is likely to be diminished and reduced. I want to be excited about other content they are going to bring to us in the coming months, but for now, it's really difficult, when the prospect of losing the way to play said content (through melee) is about to become zero. I admittedly don't enjoy the gunplay and caster-frames all that much, so... go figure.

Based on the present state + the informations we have so far - This will reduce melee to fifth wheel in the whole grand-scheme of the game; in the very game, that needs AoE and that spits shizton of enemies at you - a system, that focuses on very small handful of enemies will simply not be efficient enough; removing one of the unique features Warframe had - you could play fast-paced melee and it would be completelly viable. Current route will basically 'softly-force' the players to use either nuker-frames or AoE guns, going more in route of other games of similar type - mind you, why I don't play these games and played Warframe instead.

Edited by CrazyValkyr
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36 minutes ago, CrazyValkyr said:

Based on the present state + the informations we have so far - This will reduce melee to fifth wheel in the whole grand-scheme of the game

That's the thing. You're basing your argument on one small released aspect of the melee rework, and an interpretation of the information that DE's released so far; information that should be taken with a grain of salt as in all likelihood, that information needs to be updated due to work going on behind the scenes.

For all we know, the public release of the rework might be a bit different compared to what was initially revealed.

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12 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That's the thing. You're basing your argument on one small released aspect of the melee rework, and an interpretation of the information that DE's released so far; information that should be taken with a grain of salt as in all likelihood, that information needs to be updated due to work going on behind the scenes.

For all we know, the public release of the rework might be a bit different compared to what was initially revealed.

And I will change my opinion based on the informations, the more they provide. I am not unreasonable and I am not in habit of screaming just because I can - in fact, if this wasn't as much crucial to me and my continued enjoyment of Warframe, I'd not even be posting here at all, I'm not fan of forums, due to shizstorm people often raise here. But the fact as of now remains, that the general direction where they seem to want to put melee in, is less than desirable to pure-melee players like me. Can we leave it at that, rather than marginalize my opinion as if it was completelly invalid? Thank you. 🙂

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21 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

That's the thing. You're basing your argument on one small released aspect of the melee rework, and an interpretation of the information that DE's released so far; information that should be taken with a grain of salt as in all likelihood, that information needs to be updated due to work going on behind the scenes.

For all we know, the public release of the rework might be a bit different compared to what was initially revealed.

The purpose of this thread is to get that information to the players that want it, and receive feedback on it. The only thing that would be detrimental would be to not invest one's opinion on the subject now, while DE is still in sharing information stage and not later when they are trying to get the version they settled on to work.

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On 2018-05-11 at 1:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

This is not a rework this is a massive nerf. The problem is that the game is not a constant boss fight but rather a horde shooter! So why bother removing the feature that makes melee good the longer it's used. As a melee main and someone who has spent hundreds of hours on melee only (With no spin to win build, thank you) I can confidently say that ruining blood rush and that style of build is a very easy way to make me obsolete.

 

Please don't balance melee with the idea that we all play quick missions because I like survival and other variants so by capping my damage with this kind of "rework" ruins the game for me.

 

So far melee 3.0 makes melee cool but useless so unless this is addressed melee 3.0 will be melee -3.0 to me.

 

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RIP caustacyst and zenistar, and sarpa, and redeemer.

They were rarely used, niche weapons, with Zenistar being more used than the others, but if their "charged" attacks require a combo to build, it's pretty pointless to use them. So I guess now they become even more use-less? I mean, they aren't the best weapons, with the Sarpa and Redeemer being primarily ranged-melee to begin with. So what, now they will require you to face-tank some 100 gunner, losing their entire identity in the process, just to fire once? Sort of loses the appeal. The caustacyst and zenistar tend to drop off, caustacyst especially, so what, that's just going to become trash as well?

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of reworking melee; But how will all of this affect weapons, which have these ranged "charged"/"heavy" attacks? If I need to use my combos as "fuel", will that fuel deplete once I use a charged, or heavy, attack?

And, subsequently, will those weapons even be fun to use after this update arrives?

Then the bigger question: Will my caustacyst / zenistar require a "Line Of Sight" for it's path of corrosive goo / ring of fire to damage? Will enemy bodies count as "obstacles"?

This update seems to gloss over that, some melee weapons almost require a channeling build, so how will this impact those weapons?

I really like the idea and thought of this update, but it doesn't "feel" right. Sure, spinning into a wall constantly with maiming strike is great and effective to farm, but don't all weapons then suffer then just from one build? Zenistar, Caustacyst, Sarpa, Redeemer, or any melee whose identity/gimmick solely revolved around it's charged attack now fully loses that, either due to buggy terrain/Line-Of-Sight requirements, or the combo fuel requirements. With all points spent, Redeemer loses it's identity and versatility as a "gun-sword", and becomes just another sword, which (when reaching a "combo" with this update) can shot bb-gun like pellets once. Caustacyst's charge attack was already incredibly weak, and now you have to face-tank with a scythe weapon, and build up it's charge attack, in which its only function was to open up enemies (provides CC and opportunity for finishers, allowing a "clean" kill, or a get-away) which should have been used from the start to have an advantage? No thanks, I'd rather trash my caustacyst at that point.

Again, I'm just a plebeian here, but this re-work seems to hamstring those weapons with unique identities in particular, and will most likely push them into a further pit of uselessness. It seems, again, like over-kill for a really small issue the game faces. I would have brushed this aside as reasonable with the Line-Of-Sight req.'s, despite the effect it might have on the aforementioned weapons, but to force them into a situation where they do NOT excel at all in order to use them once seems shoddy to me, and comes off as a direct nerf to melee as a whole, when the situation itself is a problem specific to one single play-style/mod/type of weapon.

 

 

Edited by SyBuhr
Typo
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22 minutes ago, Urlan said:

The purpose of this thread is to get that information to the players that want it, and receive feedback on it.

Not disagreeing with that at all here.

22 minutes ago, Urlan said:

The only thing that would be detrimental would be to not invest one's opinion on the subject now, while DE is still in sharing information stage and not later when they are trying to get the version they settled on to work.

Nor here. 

I'm just saying that you can't accurately judge the rest of the melee rework based on one released component of it and that the information we have at present might not be accurate.

That being said, what I think would be a good idea is for DE to share any changes in plan with us so that we can a better informed opinion of what to expect.

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1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

Not disagreeing with that at all here.

Nor here. 

I'm just saying that you can't accurately judge the rest of the melee rework based on one released component of it and that the information we have at present might not be accurate.

That being said, what I think would be a good idea is for DE to share any changes in plan with us so that we can a better informed opinion of what to expect.

I can agree with this stance. Hopefully, DE will share more information as quickly as it becomes available.

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instead nerfing/"fix" every frame/mechanic that is not bug that is efficient for player why not buffing other S#&$frame/S#&$weapon/S#&$mod you made? like there is any "competitive" aspect in this game, only useless pvp mode that really need balance. most of the time play this just for PvE, u dont like player facerolling every S#&$ty content u make? then buff the mobs or whatever you can. but everytime you let players discover way to be efficient and fun in their own way you nerf it on the next  patch. it's bullS#&$ like my english

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So, melee weapons don't strike through walls since yesterday... from my small testing it seems it also applies to zenistar's disk.... is it really intended ?

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I don't feel I'm exaggerating when I say melee changes are either going to save Warframe or completely destroy it. I hope that if nothing else, you guys can nail this one perfectly. My hopes are with you!

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I agree that they have to tread carefully with melee, seeing as its the only means of combat that scales well within the endgame...

However I dont think its only the weapons that can be adjusted, the enemies can be adjusted as well, or maybe WF powers or energy consumption can also be adjusted so they are also a viable means of dispatching high leveled enemies, people only ever use crit and range builds on melee weapons because the Kill time is very short and seeing as how hordes upon hordes of enemies spawn in endgame, its more about dispatching the most enemies in the least amount of time, people dont use maiming strike + hit through walls because its fun but because its efficient, its kind of like coptering was back when there was no other way to speed through a stage and DE found a solution that feels more integrated to the games systems altogether

Again we dont have anything else other than what DE plans to do in the future, and Im pretty neutral on this one as i am not in the endgame yet, but I can understand peoples frustrations with these changes, it took time and effort and for other people, money to build something endgame specific setups only to get screwed later

But people have been asking for a melee rework for a long time now, Melee 2.0 was a long time ago and I understand DE desire to update this particular part of the game...

My 2 cents...

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I created a pretty long Feedback Thread on Melee 3.0 i´d love for you guys to give it a look. 
 

 

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Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds could work independently. Just implement their own stacking same way berserker has its own 3 stacks.

 

Tested sepfahn zaw staff with primed reach(no maiming strike). There doesn't seem to be any problems. Anybody has issues with the range change on melee?

Edited by MadGrekon

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En 11/5/2018 a las 21:09, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

We all use it - even us here. The dizzying yet super-effective slaughter-tornado that can make all other Arsenal options obsolete. But spin to win and melee going through walls - should it stay the way it is? At present time, we don't think so.


via GIPHY

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again. And if we do not address that, any work invested in our melee rework could be wasted. We want to make melee better overall. Primary and Secondary weapons have all gotten pretty painless overhauls this year. Melee's turn is coming.
 

via GIPHY

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.


The melee review is taking the longest. It has the most complexity - you can equip Melee, use combos, channel, stealth kill, hit multiple targets, and so on. Removing the clear 'spin to win through walls' is our first step in this plan of making all things melee engagement better.

The first change melee will see before it's broader review is a change to how melee attacks work. The coming change:
 

  • Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

 

As for the rest of the steps? What follows is an open door to what we're working on internally. This may not release exactly as described here, but we want everyone to be on the same page of what our plans are.
 

  • While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
  • Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
  • We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
  • Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.
  • Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
  • You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!
  • Dodge canceling any melee attack!
  • FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
  • Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 


And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

  • Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
  • Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
  • Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!


These videos show what we have so far. The first is showing quick attacks and heavy attacks together, with emphasis on direction ground attacks. The second video hows you how combat looks against invincible enemies so you can get a feel!

When I read "dodging" I was very excited, I would love to see how it is used (it could be used with double click of the direction buttons and that at the same time it could be used in a fluid way when running or walking and then win a small sprint and in the case of stand a simple movement very short, this to avoid falls on the stage). It would be great if it could be combined with the stances producing counterattack combos, projections or demolitions. Another important thing would be the use of the melee quick attack button for an attack with impact, it could be a kick and thus cause the breakdown of your defense in the case of armed enemies to melee and in the case of shield you could knock down or remove the shield. As said PS3 marcellusg9, it would also be nice to use the recharge button to perform the grab action (to perform a grab with execution it demands to use the kick to breakdown the defense, if this was not done the enemy could be thrown only), the combos resulting from these possible combinations could be dynamic, aesthetically beautiful and potentially epic.

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I've found some weird issues with meleeing enemies near boxes / crates, the game treats them like a giant wall, anyone else?

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45 minutes ago, hooperinius said:

I've found some weird issues with meleeing enemies near boxes / crates, the game treats them like a giant wall, anyone else?

From a console standpoint, this is my concern with the melee implementation that happened in yesterday’s PC update. 

Imho, I’m perfectly fine with melee not having any punchthrough through walls. This has been a growing concern for a lot of players for a very long time in terms of camping near walls or corners and exploiting enemy spawn kills. However, by completely eliminating melee punchthrough we have level obstacles and geometry behaving like walls where enemies don’t get hit, enemies spawn within the level geometry itself, melee showing the illusion that the enemy should be connecting a hit but have been unaffected, and even enemy bodies becoming a level obstacle(s) that prevents melee connection completely. If any of these have occurred since the PC update, it needs to be addressed as soon as possible and not be put aside for the sake of melee form factor, quality of life in engaging enemy close-quarters-combat with melee, and player sanity within the realm of dealing with mass enemy hordes in terms of certain endless game modes that’s not Onslaught/ESO.

I mean I’m unsure if it’s difficult to implement, but I wholeheartedly feel that melee should have at least a 1-2m innate punchthrough and tileset walls should negate all melee punchthrough whatsoever. This would push for a QoL improvement that I feel that most melee users, like myself, could attack and engage enemies comfortably through level geometry such as crates, boxes, thin pillars, and etc. while restricting abusive camping methologies of connecting melee through tileset walls with all fairness in mind.

Is that fair or reasonable to ask for? Anyone?

Edited by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

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They could lower the innate value of melee range boosting mods/rivens too. Then players wouldn't be able to stack 200% range and melee entire rooms through doorways etc. Of course the people who paid big money for range rivens would be pissed......

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3 hours ago, sechedinquechofanchofan said:

it could be used with double click of the direction buttons and that at the same time it could be used in a fluid way w

I absolutely hate this control scheme. It's the default controls for dive rolling in STO and it triggered all the time when I didn't want it to, and was anything but fluid. Disabled it in options as soon as I found out I could.

 

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