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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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21 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

This is wonderful.
Doesn't affect attacks with large sweeps getting canceled due to hitting corners before hitting the enemies, but certainly a step in the right direction.

On that note: Does this change, by any chance, affect LoS checks for abilities?

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20 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

This will do nothing about the many problems created by level geometry, i.e. bits of uneven floors, walls, and other protrusions getting in the way of melee attacks.

As I understand it, the entire reason melee was given geometry exemption in the first place was to avoid the many clunky issues it would cause. If that's the case, this is another example of a studio stubbornly going back on lessons it had already learned in the past. Either way, it remains a terrible decision that makes the melee system vastly more inconvenient and punishes players using non-meta setups as much, if not more, as it does the people abusing Maiming Atterax nonsense. You should've nerfed those and left melee geometry alone.

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I spent about two dozen hours crafting an Exodia Triumph set for my Zaw because i actually like Channeling and i saw a big opportunity in the Zenurik Channeling node. I very much enjoy that build as a massive damage multiplier to this day.

What will happen to my Exodia Triumph with this? What will happen to my Primed Reach? To my range Rivens that i partially spent thousands of platinum on? Am i just the unlucky one landing under the bus with this?

Also i cannot help but notice how the jumping charge attacks are specifically shown off on the plains because they fit the large open worlds a LOT better than the tighter tileset corridors which still make up ~98% of the game's content. That just feels... wrong. Might just be my deep antipathy to the plains shining through though. But i think the rest of my concerns are very valid.

It's getting annoying to constantly see the powerfull stuff i worked so hard to obtain get removed, "reworked" or nerfed, to the point where my mental image of power fantasy is actually getting sizeable enough dents for me to currently just... not play Warframe. After 5 years and 4500 hours i disagree with the recent developments in power fantasy cuts so much that i've gone and tried Destiny 2 (and, surprise surprise i hated it for the harsh limits in its power fantasy gameplay)

 

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I'm looking forward to "spin to win" dead and buried. Looks ridiculous in game, and it doesn't make sense for a blade to be clipping through 10 meters of wall..

To get around small geometry issues maybe just have a 1 meter punch through applied to all melee weapons (except when a weapon is thrown)?  Just to help with small irritating snags that would add a little forgiveness to fighting hordes of enemies.  

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I'm pretty excited about everything. 2.0 Melee felt very underwhelming to me for what it was trying to accomplish, and while it was still a big improvement, I've always felt like we still largely ignore our combos because they largely don't matter. I've advocated for a strong/heavy melee attack system similar to Vindictus or Dynasty Warriors for AWHILE, but I gave up as 2.0 moved further away and just settled into this games melee system. That its' being revisited again is interesting. 

As far as melee feeling too weak; That's mostly a numbers adjustment game. That part is easy to tune. 

I think, like many players who are against melee being touched, the biggest hurdle will be playing with geometry. It will likely require some fine tuning, but honestly I'm not too terribly worried about it as melee attacks can be so quick and heavy to begin with that even if one of your attacks is canceled by a wall you have 47 more attacks coming up. It feels like something that is a big deal on paper, but probably won't actually be in practice. On the other hand copter-corner-farming looks really silly to me and is worth fixing. 

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

will this apply to ranged weapons as well? its annoying to all hek not being able to shoot thru bodies (especially if they are slowed in some way)

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1 minute ago, Kalvorax said:

will this apply to ranged weapons as well? its annoying to all hek not being able to shoot thru bodies (especially if they are slowed in some way)

There are punchthrough mods for this purpose in primary and secondary. 

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1 minute ago, Drasiel said:

There are punchthrough mods for this purpose in primary and secondary. 

should NOT be necessary at all for bodies...

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It makes ZERO sense on why I would want to build up an attack for 1 hit in a horde game... Zero

Light/quick attacks should still work with the combo counter because using it for 1 attack is just dumb and not needed

Edited by (XB1)MildWitDatYac
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36 minutes ago, (XB1)MildWitDatYac said:

It makes ZERO sense on why I would want to build up an attack for 1 hit in a horde game... Zero

Light/quick attacks should still work with the combo counter because using it for 1 attack is just dumb and not needed

It would make sense if heavy attacks pierced enemy armor/resistances, as in, slaughter lighter foes with quick strikes and use a heavy attack to deal with a tough enemy who has high damage resistance. But this is only true if armor worked by absorbing flat amounts of damage making lighter attacks ineffective against heavily armored opponents. As it stands you can just shred them with light attacks just as well because armor is a % damage reduction and not a flat damage absorbtion.

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On 2018-05-21 at 4:45 PM, Zilotz said:

Sadly one part was implemented nerfing melee much by making us unable to hit thru dead enemies(not only walls)...

Ooooh. That needs to be un-fixed. Hurray, that's being un-fixed!

Edited by motorfirebox

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5 hours ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

It's a tacked on afterthought that they added when, ironically, they removed charge attacks in order to replace them. Why use loads of energy for bonus damage when condition overload and crit builds do that too, without costing energy? I mean I guess there's life strike and exodia brave but those can be used without a dedicated channeling build.

I still say keep it.

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7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

Lul, you're gonna need more than just enemies off that objects rule unless you wanna get thwarted by a knee length railing

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9 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

I'm of the opinion melee should pass through objects but not walls.

What would you say to an innate 3-7, maybe 10 (depending on the weapon) punch through on all melees? That way it's not too ludicrous but still suits most needs for melee

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Just now, LightningsVengance said:

What would you say to an innate 3-7, maybe 10 (depending on the weapon) punch through on all melees? That way it's not too ludicrous but still suits most needs for melee

The weapon's hitbox should ignore object hitboxes outright.

The reason is in tiles like the grineer galleon there are invisible objects that stop melee. Most other tiles are also quite cramped.

 

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11 hours ago, Sannidor said:

Nullifiers still require LOS to damage their bubbles with melee.

And it's them who need to see us, if they hide behind the obstacle it's even harder to start shrinking nul field.

This should be fixed asap.

Nullifiers are a major PITA for many more reasons, damage cap first. I can one shot anything under level 90 without problems but not a Nullifier bubble - a lightly modded Sarpa burst could destroy the same bubble. That penalizes any non automatic weapon without reasons.

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Nice! I like how they're taking another look at Melee: it's one of my favorite parts of the game. Now that they’re taking a look at it, here’s what I hope they consider factoring into their reworks.

The default enemy reaction when the player gets too close is to elbow them in the face, then back the f*** up and keep shooting. This is a very realistic behavior, but it’s also why a lot of combos can feel awkward when you use them. They’re spinny and flashy and superbly animated, but unless you have a long weapon + reach mod all you’re doing is dancing in front of enemies and asking to be shot.

Despite all that, I still love melee and the combos. I can see that a lot of work has gone into developing them, and I think it sucks that you don’t see these combos actually being used as much in the game. Plus there's just something so satisfying about running around and chopping enemies up while they're shooting at you. So I have two suggestions in their melee rework: one that involves the players, and one that involves the enemies.

SUGGESTION 1: FOR PLAYERS
 

Spoiler

The rework of stances and combos should focus on three main ideas: mobile, simple, and survivable. The whip + memeing strike spin2win combo works not just because efficient, it’s effective. It lets you move around, it’s easy to use, and properly built it wipes out everything, eliminating the worry of surviving. Having seen DE’s solution for Mobility (dodge-cancels and directional slam attacks), I hope they’ll consider the other two factors as well: making melee simple and giving it survivability.

A.) SIMPLICITY --- They mentioned in the first post that there will probably three separate keys for regular attacks, heavy attacks, and blocking. I believe they should change the combos to be based only off these three inputs. For example let’s look at Swooping Falcon, the stance that they were using in the sample videos. It currently has the following main combos:

              Swift Pursuit: E E E
              Slicing Talon: E (Pause) E E E E E
              Keen Broadwing: E (Block) E E E E E
              Diving Kestrel: E (Up Arrow/ W) E E E E

If we were to substitute these with Light (L), Heavy (H), and Block (B), then you don’t have to worry about pausing or pressing a directional arrow to execute a certain combo. You’ll be able to use light, heavy, or blocking as you wish, but stringing them together will allow you to execute combos that are more intuitive and less memorized. For example:

              Swift Pursuit: L L L
              Slicing Talon: L(H) L L L L L
              Keen Broadwing: (While Holding Block) L L L L L L
              Diving Kestrel: (While Holding Block) L (H) L L L L

One thing I want to stress is that combos including a directional arrow should really be replaced, since they’re either impractical (looking at you, back-arrow combos) or lock you into a combo you don’t really want to do. It’s counter-intuitive to move back when the enemy is already retreating out of range, and in fact the instinct is to chase them. But if you’re meleeing while you chase them, you simply end up doing one combo over and over again. Stopping to execute the combo isn’t a great option either, because many of the regular combos on the stances lock you in place once the animation starts.

B. SURVIVABILITY --- As for survivability, against high-level enemies Life Strike practically becomes a required mod. With the possible removal of channeling, however, Life Strike may also be removed or reworked, which will make melee even less desirable against high-level enemies.B

There is a possible creative solution, though: the interaction between the Combo Counter and Heavy Attacks. Right now it seems the Combo Counter damage multiplier may end up applying only to heavy attacks, and a heavy attack will spend all the points. To actually make spending all the points worth it, I think that DE should cut out a few parts and add them somewhere else. What I mean is that they should remove Channeling Mods, then make the built-up combo level add the current Channeling Mods’ buffs to the Heavy Attack. It could go something like this:

              1x: +25% Damage to Heavy Attack
              1.5x: +50% Damage, +25% Life Strike to Heavy Attack
              2x: +75% Damage, +50% Life Strike, +25% Crit Chance to Heavy Attack
              2.5x: +100% Damage, +75% Life Strike, +50% Crit Chance, +25% Crit Damage to Heavy Attack
              3x:+ 125% Damage, +100% Life Strike, +75% Crit Chance, +50% Crit Damage on Heavy Attack

… and so on and so forth. Of course the values and buffs don’t have to actually be the ones suggested. It’s just that it makes sense to have a system where multiple Light Attacks build up buffs for a Heavy Attack that, when executed, should knock back/ kill everything it touches and keep you alive at the same time.

It even meshes together with my first idea of simplifying the melee combos. Light Attack combos could give a boost to Combo Counter buildup if all attacks hit, allowing you to charge a Heavy Attack faster. Combos that require a Heavy Attack input to execute will have more powerful, room-clearing strikes included, as compared to combos that are simply repetitive light attacks. 

SUGGESTION 2: FOR ENEMIES

Spoiler

As for the second issue, I think that it’s time our enemies got better melee weapons and behavior. We’re one step in the right direction: The glowsticks have mostly been replaced with Sheevs and Provas when the enemy is disarmed.

We just need to take it further by letting the enemy actually use their wide variety of melee weapons instead of… I dunno, letting us steal the tech from them every time they develop with something new? It’s kinda sad, really. The Tenno get all the cool toys, but then regular enemies are stuck with can openers and cattle prods. You’d expect planet-conquering empires like the Grineer and Corpus to at least have a bit more efficiency when it comes to distributing weapons. I mean it'd be great if we could see things like these:

Grineer
Lancer: Sheev
Elite Lancer: Machete
Eviscerator: Ripkas/ Single Ripka
Ballista: Dual Cleaver
Trooper: Furax/ Single Furax
Seeker: Sydon
Scorch: Twin Basolk/ Basolk
Shield Lancer: Ack (no Brunt)
Commander: Twin Krohkur/ Krohkur
Bombard: Jat Kittag
Heavy Gunner: Manticore
Napalm: Brokk
EXIMUS: Any Grineer Weapon

Corpus
Detron Crewman: Obex
Elite Crewman: Ohma
Sniper Crewman: Lecta
Corpus Tech: Serro/ Arca Triton
MOAS: Kick/ Headbutt
EXIMUS: Any Corpus Weapon
MOA EXIMUS: Lunging Kick/ Headbutt that can Knockdown/ Stagger

For the behavior, they can go with a simple one where all the enemies immediately switch to melee when they’re within a certain range of the player (10-20m, maybe?) So rather than them backing away and continuing to shoot, they immediately charge in and start whacking at them. I’m sure that little behavior will make all the difference in making melee feel more engaging.

 

Edited by 4MostlyHarmless2
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14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

This is fantastic news! Thanks for listening to the community's feedback on this change. That said, DE's continued reworking and adjusting of Warframe with the intentions of 'fixing' something that's being exploited by a minority has got to stop. Below is a sort of remix of a few Reddit comments I made prior to this announcement as I feel despite this small victory the sentiment is still very appropriate when it comes to how DE is handling what it views as problematic gameplay mechanics. I'll preface by saying that I realise that most of the feedback I give can seem negative, as though I'm 'hating on' the game and the decisions made about it by its developers. I have a lot of love for Warframe, and I have the ink in my skin to prove it. I have a deep respect for the team behind the game who work hard to make it everything it is, and believe that by being honest and critical about the aspects of Warframe that could be improved, it can lead to a game that's better than it is now. Warframe is undoubtedly a great videogame that should bring pride to everyone who has contributed to it, I wouldn't have been playing it for as long as I have if it were anything less. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be greater.

 

I really hope this is a bug and not the game slowly sliding ever so slightly more towards unfun chore territory. I've seen people arguing that anyone unhappy with the change should suck it up because this rework is how melee 'is'. The problem with that argument is that videogames don't have to be tediously boring. This change might make WF's melee more 'melee', but it makes it infinitely less 'Warframe'. While melee combat allowed spin-2-win it was also fun. The only somewhat legitimate argument for these changes is that it might force more experienced players to slow down which will benefit players who can't keep up. Perhaps that player should either strive to improve their mastery of the game, or (and more favourably, imo) push for matchmaking that attempts to take a player's skill level into account. If one player isn't having fun I don't see how reversing the situation benefits the majority of people in the short-term, or anyone in the long-term. 

I'm getting seriously [NO-UNCHRISTIAN-F-WORDS-ON-THIS-FORUM-NO-SIR]ing sick of DE implementing 'fixes' for things that are being abused that also shaft the players that were just enjoying the game & having fun. If someone wants to waste their time abusing a mechanic and not actually playing the game why should legitimate players get humped as part of the fix? I'm totally on DE's side if they want to prevent players taking advantage of certain mechanics but it feels like they want us to play the game in a very specific way that isn't actually all that great, and certainly not the reason I've been playing & financially supporting it for the last 5 years. Remember when WF reworks were something to look forward to, rather than fear? Any time I hear that a frame is getting reworked I no longer get excited like I did with the first few reworks, I just wonder what part of the game DE is stripping out. I don't want to feel that way and yet I do because of how DE have consistently thrown legit players under the bus when it comes to Warframe powers that might mitigate some form of grind. I don't want to continue to feel jaded with the direction the game is slowly moving in yet I do because it feels as time goes on there's a further disconnect between developers and the people playing their game. Most of all I don't want to feel unwelcome in a game that has helped me through a lot of rough times since I started playing it. Fortunately I don't feel that way yet, but the more fun & appealing aspects of Warframe DE 'fix' the more I'm beginning to believe that the game's time as a posterboy of F2P gaming done correctly might be at an end.

Warframe has built up a lot of good will with me and for good reason, but I've gone from assuming poor changes are likely just a bug that'll get fixed to assuming it's another terrible DE decision that the community will have to either shout itself hoarse to get fixed or (more likely) get told the 'bug' is intentional and to [NO-UNCHRISTIAN-P-WORDS-ON-THIS-FORUM-NO-MA'AM] off instead. I don't know when that started for me, but I really hope that a continued effort to listen to community feedback in the face of changes like this and to make the game enjoyable first & foremost can help revert that mindset.

Edited by DoctorBagPhD
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I have seen any Slide attacks blocked by enemies for me. 

That is because I use them as SLIDE attacks, not SPIN attacks.

I am moving during a slide attack, so that might be the difference. 

If I slide attack into a line of enemies the enemies that are blocking are behind me. 

Folks who are using scripts and tricks to trigger a spin without a slide are most likely the ones noticing bodyblocking.

Maybe DE should consider putting a minimum velocity requirement to trigger a spin attack, and leaving the bodyblock in place for now. 

 

 

 

Edited by QQQQMkII
redundant again

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13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

Thanks, that's really good news. Hope we'll see the changes on Public soon. By the way, do 'friends' and 'breakable objects' still block LoS now?

Would you mind giving us a table of all object types in the game and if they can be passed by default, with punchthrough or impassable for melee and/or ranged attacks? It can make our suggestions a little more based on facts rather then speculations.

Quote my yesterday post from other topic to clarify my point:

On 2018-05-22 at 9:08 AM, Syasob said:

One of the most important things for a player is clarity of results of his/her actions, for example we used to know that wide swing was going to hit every enemy in range, but now we see a group of 10 enemies standing together but every swing hits only few of them randomly. And that's what makes current LoS change bad: we can't even hope to predict our actions' consequences.

IMHO objects better be separated in two groups: impenetratable (like walls) and everything else that include consoles, bodies, other enemies/players, breakable crates, doors etc.

Punchthrough never enables a weapon to strike through wall-like objects (we can live without random wall-shooting hitting enemies on the other side) and can only be used to shoot/strike through other objects. Then with unlimited innate punchthrough melee will hit everything around you just fine but you won't be able to clear the next room before entering.

 

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14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PLEASE NOTE!

Right now on Public, 'objects' includes 'enemies'. We have changes cooking on the Dev build that removes enemies from the 'objects' rule, meaning that melee attacks will freely pass through enemies in range (i.e an enemy cannot block another enemy from being hit).

Just a question but what about knee high railings, vines, decorative "objects" (flowers on earth and similar), crates?

 

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3 hours ago, den2k said:

Nullifiers are a major PITA for many more reasons, damage cap first. I can one shot anything under level 90 without problems but not a Nullifier bubble - a lightly modded Sarpa burst could destroy the same bubble. That penalizes any non automatic weapon without reasons.

I assume you know bubbles can be destroyed instantly when you shoot the drone on top of it but these pesky things love to hide behind or even inside the bubble which defeats the purpose.

Also, high level Nullifiers have drones with huge HP so it's often more efficient to shoot the bubble directly anyway.

 

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1 hour ago, Sannidor said:

I assume you know bubbles can be destroyed instantly when you shoot the drone on top of it but these pesky things love to hide behind or even inside the bubble which defeats the purpose.

Also, high level Nullifiers have drones with huge HP so it's often more efficient to shoot the bubble directly anyway.

 

Yes I know but as you said it's not always possible. As of now my favourite weapon is the Ignis Wraith, which consumes those bubbles as if they were made of soap, but my Uberpowerful Sobek (23.5k per shot) can't even.

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