Why nerfing things isn't necessary.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

"Oh look, I just got a meme strike, the mod that has made so many nerf herders cry salty, salty tears........ And.... Annnnnd... I'm not using it because that's boring."

It's almost like the mod, or something being arguably "op" isn't actually the problem. Sure I have an atterax and for a long time it was my favorite weapon. But I have no shortage of other weapons I find just as enjoyable. Actually for a while my favorite became the hirudo, then glaives... Little by little ive tried most of what this game has to offer as far as melees go.

The failure isn't that there is an exploit. The failure is that people are being driven to exploit. That there are parts of the game that have a massive, arbitrary grind, and that grind is considered significantly more valuable then enjoyment of gameplay. Now I love grinding as much as the next person who would be drawn to this kind of game. But not to the degree that it literally drives you to want to find ways to just go idle and let the game play it's self. 

That people are exploiting the game is not something you can fix with nerfing, because no matter what you nerf, people will always find something else to exploit, and if you nerf everything over and over while chasing down exploits and metas, pretty soon you have an unplayable game... Look at certain other games that are barely clinging to life if you have your doubts... You have to fix what is driving people to exploit the game. What the specific answers are there, well, there's a lot of them, some more than others. But if you don't do something about the reasons people are exploiting, you will end up just nerfing your game until no one wants to play it anymore.

There is an old curse. Exactly from what region of the world it originates is some debate. Some say it is a curse from the sun and winds of middle east, others say ancient China, But the sentiment can be heard in every culture around the world. "May all your wishes be granted". As long as there is one weapon in this game capable of putting down an enemy, there will be someone here wanting it nerfed because all of the other weapons are judged by how close they come to killing that one enemy, but only one weapon can actually kill it and there for that weapon must be nerfed. 

If you listen to those who beg for nerf after nerf, eventually they will be left with a game that even they do not wish to play. It is better to fix that which underperforms, then to break that which shines. And then there are those who will claim "well this game has been around for years now, you can't keep working on old equipment every time you make something new and better..." First. I would argue that you don't start ignoring your older children and assume they'll get on fine without you just because you have a new child. Sure there are people who do that, they're called "terrible people". But sure fine lets just let 60% of the weapons be trash, say that they have to be so the other 40% can shine.... And then demand the 40% be nerfed. That makes sense. To someone. I guess. Not me but I mean, someone has to be able to make heads of tails of that philosophy...

[DeMonkey]

Buffing things also isn't necessary, yet they still do.

If you're against nerfing then you're against balance, and if you're against balance you're against buffing.

[tyranno66]

Oh another meta complaint rant about "don't nerf things, buff everything instead". Well, when everything is buffed to a point where X is balanced, it'll be like X was nerfed.

This sounds like "Wah don't nerf my toy" to me.

[4thBro]

I didn't really read... Do people say Maiming is OP or something?

 

There is nothing OP about any melee whatsoever. How can anybody say anything melee has a chance against guns? You can run whatever melee you want - you will lose in damage to ANY gun less than 5 Dispo.

[tyranno66]

Just now, 4thBro said:

I didn't really read... Do people say Maiming is OP or something?

 

There is nothing OP about any melee whatsoever. How can anybody say anything melee has a chance against guns? You can run whatever melee you want - you will lose in damage to ANY gun less than 5 Dispo.

Yeahhhh, sure thing buddy, keep on believing that.

[YUNoJump]

Just gonna leave this here, people have been making the exact same argument as you since Warframe's launch and even before then, there's a reason nobody has ever actually used your method.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

8 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

I didn't really read... Do people say Maiming is OP or something?

 

There is nothing OP about any melee whatsoever. How can anybody say anything melee has a chance against guns? You can run whatever melee you want - you will lose in damage to ANY gun less than 5 Dispo.

Lol you need to mod your melee a bit differently I think. 

[4thBro]

7 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

Yeahhhh, sure thing buddy, keep on believing that.

I understand that you have fun with melee, and I understand that you might top damage in some pugs.

 

But melee will never compete with guns. How can you even argue the contrary?

"Oh but I one-shot mobs! You should SEE THE DAMAGE!!!"

 

Melee doesn't compete with guns, man.

[4thBro]

You cannot move faster than my aiming reticle.

 

You might think that you can.

But you cannot.

[Hecro]

hace 7 minutos, 4thBro dijo:

I understand that you have fun with melee, and I understand that you might top damage in some pugs.

 

But melee will never compete with guns. How can you even argue the contrary?

"Oh but I one-shot mobs! You should SEE THE DAMAGE!!!"

 

Melee doesn't compete with guns, man.

...yeah, you should maybe read the original post.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Hecro

[Talinthis]

Lol melee blows them out of the water entirely. You can sweep through an entire corridor in less than 2 seconds and have like 30 kills. The only guns that can even hope of doing better than that are stuff like the arca plasmor

[Zeclem]

1 minute ago, 4thBro said:

You cannot move faster than my aiming reticle.

 

You might think that you can.

But you cannot.

melee is superior to firearms right now. and considering that there are a lot of melees with the range enough to cover half of a room in a single swipe, i'd say i can kill faster than your reticle aim. 

[4thBro]

3 minutes ago, tyranno66 said:

Uh huh. How bout you stay on topic tho. At least you can be wrong on topic.

So you are, on the record, saying that you can move your character to enemies on various sides of a room or field faster than I can move my aimer to them. Just so we're clear.

And other people are claiming that only melee has the capability of 1-shotting multiple enemies per attack... because they've never heard of punch through, I guess.

But you're right. Time to be on-topic. Enough hyperbole about a melee swing covering an entire room, unless you were referring to closets of course.

 

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

"Oh look, I just got a meme strike, the mod that has made so many nerf herders cry salty, salty tears........ And.... Annnnnd... I'm not using it because that's boring."

It's almost like the mod, or something being arguably "op" isn't actually the problem. Sure I have an atterax and for a long time it was my favorite weapon. But I have no shortage of other weapons I find just as enjoyable. Actually for a while my favorite became the hirudo, then glaives... Little by little ive tried most of what this game has to offer as far as melees go.

The failure isn't that there is an exploit. The failure is that people are being driven to exploit. That there are parts of the game that have a massive, arbitrary grind, and that grind is considered significantly more valuable then enjoyment of gameplay. Now I love grinding as much as the next person who would be drawn to this kind of game. But not to the degree that it literally drives you to want to find ways to just go idle and let the game play it's self. 

That people are exploiting the game is not something you can fix with nerfing, because no matter what you nerf, people will always find something else to exploit, and if you nerf everything over and over while chasing down exploits and metas, pretty soon you have an unplayable game... Look at certain other games that are barely clinging to life if you have your doubts... You have to fix what is driving people to exploit the game. What the specific answers are there, well, there's a lot of them, some more than others. But if you don't do something about the reasons people are exploiting, you will end up just nerfing your game until no one wants to play it anymore.

There is an old curse. Exactly from what region of the world it originates is some debate. Some say it is a curse from the sun and winds of middle east, others say ancient China, But the sentiment can be heard in every culture around the world. "May all your wishes be granted". As long as there is one weapon in this game capable of putting down an enemy, there will be someone here wanting it nerfed because all of the other weapons are judged by how close they come to killing that one enemy, but only one weapon can actually kill it and there for that weapon must be nerfed. 

If you listen to those who beg for nerf after nerf, eventually they will be left with a game that even they do not wish to play. It is better to fix that which underperforms, then to break that which shines. And then there are those who will claim "well this game has been around for years now, you can't keep working on old equipment every time you make something new and better..." First. I would argue that you don't start ignoring your older children and assume they'll get on fine without you just because you have a new child. Sure there are people who do that, they're called "terrible people". But sure fine lets just let 60% of the weapons be trash, say that they have to be so the other 40% can shine.... And then demand the 40% be nerfed. That makes sense. To someone. I guess. Not me but I mean, someone has to be able to make heads of tails of that philosophy...

 

After reading it, this feels a little difficult to respond to. You wrote the whole thing assuming that a problem existed which does not. At least in my opinion - and, perhaps, that may be the point I may be making entirely.

 

Firstly, you seem to be calling Maiming Strike an exploit. Instead, I think you mean "abuse". A person simply using a mod cannot possibly be an exploit. It can, at best, be considered balance abuse, which is, of course, subjective. As you've seen in this thread, I do not consider ANYTHING melee to be imbalanced. How can it be? Guns and melee are both capable of insane amounts of damage. After that, guns obviously have superior functionality. They can move from target to target infinitely faster than melee, and the range provides infinite additional benefits such as safety, FoV coverage, etc etc. (I can't believe I have to explain why guns are better than melee.) REGARDLESS, the point is that you labeled it as an exploit, and that is a complete misrepresentation of the word.

But you touch up on one thing in that paragraph. Imbalanced or not, let's just say Maiming Strike is a "best in slot" mod, or even the #1 most important mod you can put in. Alright... ... now what? Nerf it because of that alone? You really can't. There will ALWAYS be a #1 best mod for any given thing. Just like there will always be a WORST mod. Mods cannot be equal, or they'd just do the same thing anyway. Looking at something simply because it's the best is dumb because there HAS to ALWAYS be a best.

 

Your next paragraph seems to reflect what I just said; but allow me to also present a counterpoint, perhaps a bit of the devil's advocate in me.

Sometimes, the best thing DOES need a nerf. The reason why this can happen is because if something is TOO good at doing a particular task, it can ACHIEVE its task before ANYONE ELSE has a chance to play the game. For example, think about Lankas versus Eidolons. If you throw a good crit Riven on it, you can legitimately 1-shot the limbs, preventing other players from being able to participate. See also: Saryn Memes and other such frames. THAT is where a nerf is warranted... When something actually IS so good that it prevents OTHERS from being able to play the game. That being said... Maiming cannot POSSIBLY be that, as it is only a melee mod. If you're unable to play the game because a melee is "killing the entire map," then your reaction speed is less than a slug's. Assuming slugs even HAVE slow reaction speeds, who actually knows.

 

As for the minority of weapons being good and the rest is trash, I'll add that they ASSUMED Rivens would (completely?) remedy this. At surface value, you might even be inclined to agree. Less-used weapons get much higher Riven stats? Sounds like it would do that, right?

The problem is - even IGNORING faulty Disposition stats - what Rivens ENDED UP doing was making the Dispo ~3 guns pure insanity. Some kind of sweet spot of good stats, but not good enough to be more commonly used... but just infrequently-enough used that their Rivens are still super good. (And then the Riven economy became busted, etc etc, but that's a slight side topic.)

So in all this talk, I feel Rivens are relevant to bring up. If guns got a general "rework" or looked at, I think Rivens would HAVE to get the same treatment alongside each other as the same project.

[Lost_Cartographer]

The reason for nerfs in Warframe comes in two flavors, and they're usually linked by one grievance:

The weapon/warframe is just seen as defacto "the best." so it needs to be nerfed to get people to branch out.  If 30% of your player base is using the Kappadooker for their primary and the rest are spread across like 40 primaries, you MIGHT have an OP weapon, but clearly only a plurality are using it, and there are a myriad of reasons beyond it being powerful for it being so popular.  A youtuber recommended it, it's new and actually fun, it works/has a unique mechanic, etc.  If 60%+ is using the Kappadooker, and it's dwarfing everything else that's been coming about, then maybe it needs a nerf because it's effecting the bottom line practically playing the game for people, and players are NOTORIOUS for taking the path of least resistance, even at the expense of their own enjoyment.  If people aren't having fun, they stop playing, and if they're not playing, there's no chance they'll be paying.

The other reason is usually linked to the above: If one guy has it super easy, everyone in his cell will have it super easy by proxy.  Ever play a low level mission with an Ember that has World on Fire going?  It's great if you want to level holstered weapons you'll never once draw so you can level your mastery rank, but it totally ruins the game play for people that have fun shooting things.  Weapons and abilities tend to get nerfed so that people that like playing in a group aren't totally playing a bullet jump simulator because ONE GUY decided he couldn't be bothered to turn his preference from public to solo.  The movement system in this game is slick, but I know I'm not alone in saying that hopping through empty rooms is just boring as hell.

As for buffs well... the reason things get buffed is because virtually no one's using them and they're not really intended to be throw away items.  There's a clear level range DE balances around, and so far I'm confident 40-60 is the range where the vast majority of items are intended to be viable.  To varying efficiency of course, but they work.

[ZadeSpace]

why does it matter either way you're gonna be hitting e

[(XBOX)AlingsasArrende]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

Melee doesn't compete with guns, man. 

Once enemies reach really high levels, melee is the only thing that holds up. This is the general agreement among the community, for good reason. But sure, up until lvl 100, or even 200, it is possible to make guns compete with melee, under the right conditions.

PS. Those with less knowledge normally take a more humble approach. And PLEASE don't post in a topic without reading the original post.

[4thBro]

Cleaving Whirlwind should outperform Memeing Atterax at any rate, eh?

 

I'm still going to disagree in guns vs melee. You can "subtly" insult me by calling me less knowledgeable, I guess. But even against level 900 enemies or whatever you wanna say, slash procs will serve you plenty fine if nothing else. But I wouldn't wanna be running around trying to melee things as anything short of a Blessed & Linked Trinity. What do you even do for Nullifiers? It just doesn't add up. I'm not sure if most people are referencing simulacrum-spawned enemies, or actual game content.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 4thBro

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Yea no nerfs are sometimes needed. I literally have 0 fond memories in regards of miragulors.

[(PSN)delbert29720]

My 15m range dokhram would like a word with your said guns cus it has np clearing decent size rooms and even amongst my buddies with Exodia hunt it’s just a breeze sweeping the room far faster than than can sweep with guns 

[Orgoon]

5 hours ago, 4thBro said:

You cannot move faster than my aiming reticle.

 

You might think that you can.

But you cannot.

This game is overcrowded with noaimers, that's why Maiming Strike, Ignis Wraith and Amprex are so often used.

[seprent]

1 hour ago, Orgoon said:

This game is overcrowded with noaimers, that's why Maiming Strike, Ignis Wraith and Amprex are so often used.

wouldn't shot guns also fit in there they have a pretty simple point an click interface 

though i guess you can aim those since the tigris can someone hit something from pretty far away same for the Corinth wont do much damage but hey you can hit it 

even after the change to the trigis family to try to stop it from being a pseudo sniper it still does it do some degree of effectiveness  

[Pooroldude]

People with their tryhard scoliacs with 250% range rivens and maim strike, people with their lanka with 250%crit chance and crit damage rivens and pure electric proc for aoe and rapidfire shotguns.

Just use a saryn and press 1.

Just follow the meta boys.

[guartz]

yes yes yes, but did you ever use a memestrike attey with a riven that adds slide attack cc, cd and range?

[TinFoilMkIV]

It depends on what the your goal is, and the reasoning behind it. There are both perfectly valid, and utterly pointless reasons and methods for nerfing things, as well as buffing things. If you're fine with the state of things and don't wish for any change, that's fine. But to claim that any and all change of a certain type will be bad is simply false.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, 4thBro said:

I understand that you have fun with melee, and I understand that you might top damage in some pugs.

 

But melee will never compete with guns. How can you even argue the contrary?

"Oh but I one-shot mobs! You should SEE THE DAMAGE!!!"

 

Melee doesn't compete with guns, man.

Uh  this is demonstrably false. I would propose that not only can melee compete with any gun you want to throw down, but that it is probably the strongest category of weapon in the game.