[Spoiler] The Lotus didn't 'use us' - She was Real

[ElGuirrix]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

To his core, Ballas is a narcissist and only really cares about surviving because he is too important to die.

He has given us the Sword because he is embittered about how the sentients have essentially rendered him into a sentient slave and that is too much for his ego to bear.

Which is basically what I'm going at. Revenge or no, I doubt surviving left his priority list, and given that it's pretty obvious that he ain't gonna last too long if the sentients are done with him, his best bet for survival is getting on our good side or at least making us owe him to the degree where his own survival is ensured.

[AegixDrakan]

People have mostly handled my view on the matter already.

Lotus WAS real, she DID care, she did get super attached and overprotective of the Tenno she was guiding under Margulis's voice, and betrayed the Sentients for us, but Ballas being the egotistical wannabe "god" he claims to be went and snapped Lotus's connection to the Tenno, reactivated her sentient personality again and BAM, now we're here.  With a confused Natah unsure of what to do, but resigning herself to returning to her people, but still slightly caring about the Tenno.

And with "Wally" continuing to screw with our heads in a way that makes me view him as if he were Nyarlathotep or some other lovecraftian horror whose motives aren't bound by human logic.

Personally, if there's a way to save Lotus, I'll take it.  She's helped the Tenno a whole lot, and deserves us trying to save her, even if it turns out we can't.  Seriously, the next time I see Ballas, unless he's got a way to help Lotus, I'm letting Umbra get his long deserved revenge.

Still, I'm making the Sentient Slayer Sword.  If the only way to save Lotus is to destroy her...Then I guess that's the way it has to be.  If so, I just hope that we get to slaughter Ballas in the process.

On 2018-10-19 at 7:23 PM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Lotus has been dealing with more than just Space child soldiers literally as long as they've have been active. How do you think all the other factions were brought together in one place? 

Her actual problem isn't that she doesn't have the same thought and emotion. It is that she's sort of a helicopter parent. She's always looking over the Tenno's shoulders because she worries too much. It's actually one of the most human things about Lotus.

She is DEFINITELY a helicopter parent.  Dangit space mom, I'm basically an immortal void ghost piloting a human-sized weapon of mass destruction, stop worrying so dang much!  We can take care of ourselves!

BTW:  About the "Jade Light" not leaving a corpse...Natah wouldn't need a corpse to copy Margulis.  Isn't Natah the Mimic Queen?  Couldn't she just take Ballas's memory of Margulis and mimic her?

Oh, and finally...How the heck are there people that prefer Ballas over Lotus?  Yeah, Lotus can get annoying and naggy.  But Ballas basically goes "Oh hey there, mister respected soldier!  I see you discovered that I'm planning on betraying the entire solar system to the genocidal sentients!  Well, that won't do, so I'm going to turn you into a warframe (an agonizing process), make you play Space Go, where every point I win represents a generation of your kids that I'll enslave and slaughter, and then I'll make you kill your own son, AND THEN, I'm going to force you to repeat the same memory endlessly for anywhere between 100 to 2,000 years".  There isn't a redeeming bone in that Orokin's body!  I felt no pity during Chimera.  He deserves his current state.  "Robbed him of his perfect death" my front teeth...

[8lbs]

Quote

Lotus has irked many of us the wrong way from the very beginning, and now we just see her true colors

Honestly she has proven herself to be the biggest warmonger in the system, more so than even the grineer. Its something i've questioned since i started playing in 2014. now as to whether shes "real" or not depends on the extent of her sentient makeup as she could very well have been mind controlled from the start and were seeing the sentient's dropping their long-con and they are undoing all of that stuff

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

13 minutes ago, AegixDrakan said:

And with "Wally" continuing to screw with our heads in a way that makes me view him as if he were Nyarlathotep or some other lovecraftian horror whose motives aren't bound by human logic.

I agree with this - his actions may be of some greater plan or reasoning that defies our human understanding.

I think trying to place him as good or evil, friend or enemy is pointless because he is beyond such human concepts.

[(XBOX)Kuljack]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Yeah she lead us to Umbra because she is still in there somewhere trying to help us. 

 

Yup, it's sad really how so many have been so quick to lose faith in our Mother. It's not easy to live a splinter-life but she's trying to save us. I have a feeling we will meet a tragedy in this tale, but one that blossoms a beautiful new beginning.

[Yousho]

Ballas: Hey, betray the Tenno. 

Lotus: Nah I'm good lol. 

Ballas: Please? 

Lotus: lol K den. 

 

Seriously, I feel that we need some explanation as to why Ballas was just randomly able to turn her? 

Unless she's playing the serious double agent game. 

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

5 minutes ago, Yousho said:

Ballas: Hey, betray the Tenno. 

Lotus: Nah I'm good lol. 

Ballas: Please? 

Lotus: lol K den. 

 

Seriously, I feel that we need some explanation as to why Ballas was just randomly able to turn her? 

Unless she's playing the serious double agent game. 

There is some 'wave' of energy that Ballas unleashes when he raises his hand to her, that causes our screen to blur and the Lotus to 'snap' and become compliant.

My guess is Ballas is using some sentient 'trick' that 'bewitched' her

[Mach25]

I don't give a darn who or what she was - I'm glad she's out of the way now. I look forward to working with DarvoCorp to handle Darvo's "problems", be they corporate sabotage/espionage or good ol' fashioned wetwork.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Mach25

[(PSN)Lowk721]

On 2018-11-20 at 10:37 AM, 8lbs said:

Honestly she has proven herself to be the biggest warmonger in the system, more so than even the grineer.

...How? She's helped establish neutral ground for the various good factions in the system to get together peacefully. Despite them having hostilities towards each other.

Up until Ballas, her action aligned with the Tenno's various ideologies mentioned in Second Dream. Such as aiding the weak.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Hmm. Riven actually means: Split, or to tear apart violently.

So that actually fits your split personality theory.

I honestly think she "was" legit. But after The War Within Lotus changed impo.

As the Tenno started to grow & regain their strength she pulled back. However I believe the word "Riven" was deliberate. I think Lotus has 2 personalities & is like Ordis.

There is Lotus "The Mother" & Natah "The Sentient". 

I firmly believe Ballas being the colossal & absolute imbecile that he is...

(He is Orokin afterall, and they were all colossal idiots. Despite nearly destroying themselves on a Daily basis they continued to keep making tech & experiments until they finally did destroy themselves.)

...reprogrammed her or impo he essentially ran a repair tool on her & made her sentient again. He also may have ran a Quarantine on the "Lotus" personality.

I don't see DE having us kill her. I fear they will play a fantasy friends card & she'll somehow overpower Natah & become Lotus once more probably for good. Now, we may dive into The Lotus' program & destroy Natah once & for all however.

I like Ordis as a Handler honestly. I wish they'd record more lines for him. We need a break from Lotus impo.

I have nothing against Reb, but 5 years of Lotus has probably worn players down. The fake lotus is a cop-out impo. I was hoping that post Sacrifice we'd get a new handler.

I'd love to see Lotus evolve from Handler to a more nuanced character who serves a bigger purpose in the game.

Edited November 22, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Hmm. Riven actually means: Split, or to tear apart violently.

I don't see DE having us kill her. I fear they will play a fantasy friends card & she'll somehow overpower Natah & become Lotus once more probably for good. Now, we may dive into The Lotus' program & destroy Natah once & for all however.

Great point about Riven, makes what I am theorizing a lot clearer.

I agree - I think we will purge the 'sentient' Natah in a big boss fight and in doing so, we will free the 'Lotus' personality forever.  

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

-snip-

I've actually got my own theory related to the 'split personality'. Basically revolving around the idea that the Lotus might be suffering from the start of some mental issues due to all the stuff that's happened to her over the course of the story. We've had constant Transference therapy to take away our pain, but we know the Lotus is a lot more sensitive than she puts on. Remember how in Vor's prize she gets worked up emotionally over the potential loss of a single Tenno she met, like, an hour ago? If she didn't care about the Tenno, I don't think she'd have that reaction if she were really as emotionally distant as she pretends to be.

So, now, consider what we go through in the Warframe story: Hunhow starts to wake up, and Spacemum lets her fear get the better of her, but then she comes back to face her fears. In the Second Dream, she stands against her father to redeem herself for abandoning us, and accidentally gives Hunhow the location of Lua, almost getting all the Tenno killed. Then, the War Within, she gets blasted by the Tenno and Teshin, pretty much double-barrelled. Finally, in Chains of Harrow, her Idol of Margulis is shattered - Margulis was just as snooty as the other Orokin, just for different things. She cast out Rell not because Rell had personality problems, or potentially even because he had no control of his powers (He's the only Tenno we see using Void Beam in his comic, indicating he might have had better control than the others). She cast him out because he was different, 'ugly', only in his head not in the body.

So, all in all, she messed up as either a mum and/or a commander twice in rapid succession, almost getting all of her kids/soldiers killed. She then got verbally torn apart by one of those kids/soldiers AND another person she seems to respect simultaneously. Then, finally, the person she idealised had her imperfection made brutally obvious, so now Lotus, who seems to really buy the whole 'Dream, not of what you are, but of what you want to be' philosophy really hard, has what she wants to be torn away.

In short, I wouldn't be surprised if she was a lot more mentally and emotionally compromised that she seems to be. If there was a split in her personalities, then presumably a loss of will or self-esteem in the 'Lotus' part would lead to the resurgence of the 'Natah' part, or at the very least make it easier to switch the two.

[Kerthis]

On 2018-10-19 at 7:39 PM, Kaotyke said:

• Ballas helps Natah infiltrate.
• Natah gets Margulis' form and becomes the Lotus.
• Lotus gets close to the Tenno and gains simpathy for them, she eventually sees them as the children she could never have.

Can someone explain something regarding this part to me? Margulis was sentenced to death by the Orokin for defying them and refusing to create mindless war machines out of Tenno right? If so how exactly Natah infiltrates Orokin ranks by takin up apperance of someone that they had executed? "-Hi guys! It's me, your dear old Margulis but now Ill be good and help you with Tenno! Oh btw now I have stylez! Call me Lotus bi.tches. -Ok, why not.." Is that how it went?

[Zeiss17]

Mh hm nice thread and all, but lemme put one or two tigris prime shells in her first. Then we can talk about real or not. Whatever it is, disertion is till a war crime.

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, Kerthis said:

Can someone explain something regarding this part to me? Margulis was sentenced to death by the Orokin for defying them and refusing to create mindless war machines out of Tenno right? If so how exactly Natah infiltrates Orokin ranks by takin up apperance of someone that they had executed? "-Hi guys! It's me, your dear old Margulis but now Ill be good and help you with Tenno! Oh btw now I have stylez! Call me Lotus bi.tches. -Ok, why not.." Is that how it went?

Look alikes. Maybe the other Orokin though it would be Orokinish (AKA d*ckish) enough for one of them to take the form of Margulis to taunt Ballas.

Or they NEVER knew of the Lotus as Margulis' form. Lotus is called a "Sentient Queen" and who are her fragments? Mimics, Her Margulis form could be something she showed only to the Tenno.

Also, we have no evidence showing the TENNO, the characters, not the players, didnt know about Lotus taking Margulis form on purpose. Before "Natah", we didnt have a single line spoken and they didnt question her nature after "TSD".

It implies that they knew that she was just a look-a-like, wanted them to bring down the empire and was a Sentient.

The events of "Natah" could be her explaining to TESHIN her true nature. Not to the Tenno themselves.

[(NSW)Aila]

Most importantly and I think shockingly obviously - She's a Hunhow-level Sentient, armed with variously: the secret of the Tenno; the precise location of every Tenno and their current objective; an army of Sentient drones; and an upgraded version of the greatest Orokin Executor ever; yet she chose to leave and leave us alone afterwards rather than murder us and all the other Tenno. She even took a twisted revenge on Ballas.

[Enxel]

Its possible that all this is her plan to take out the sentient's, use Ballas to rejoin the fold, send the tenno to rebuild umbra getting the proper measures to fight them, and leading them in the right direction from the inside.

In the last cut-scene of the sacrifice quest if umbra had not grabbed the operator the beam would hit his feet not him directly.

 

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, ShaneKahnnigan17 said:

Mh hm nice thread and all, but lemme put one or two tigris prime shells in her first. Then we can talk about real or not. Whatever it is, disertion is till a war crime.

So is being a child soldier, using biological weapons or radiation I'd like to point out. 

[8lbs]

On 2018-11-21 at 8:01 PM, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

How? She's helped establish neutral ground for the various good factions in the system to get together peacefully.

the instructions that we blindly follow, capture this agent, exterminate this battalion, steal this data and more. the is a THREAT to everything in the system not because of the power she commands (the tenno) but because of the information she gathers. Impo i do not think the lotus was neutral. we were just another faction working against the others in the system. the tenno *now* without the lotus are free agents and truly neutral, however with the lotus at the head we were used to facillitate her long term goals. a sleeper agent who effectively secured power to use for sentient gain.

 

On 2018-11-22 at 12:09 AM, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

As the Tenno started to grow & regain their strength she pulled back. However I believe the word "Riven" was deliberate. I think Lotus has 2 personalities & is like Ordis.

I actually agree with this because even though she "chose" to become the lotus, she still has her original coding which im pretty sure heavily influenced her decisions even if subconsciously.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

On 2018-11-20 at 8:07 AM, (XB1)Kuljack said:

 

I think it's pretty clear the Lotus was the real sacrifice. She allowed herself to be taken by Ballas and return to the Sentients in order to spare her children, The Tenno, from an almost certain end as we aren't yet prepared for the fight.

That's why she led us to Umbra Excalibur, that's why she brought Ballas back to hand us the Parecesis and that's why she took a peak at us at the end of the cinematic to know we got the sword. I really do feel bad for Ballas though cause he has to relive that scene every time a Tenno want's to grab their sword.... poor guy.

3

Exactly she is just doing what she does best.  must not forget she was basically designed to be a spy and for covert interference against the Orokin during the old war.  It was unexpected and not apart of the plan that she fall in love with the Tenno and protect and hide them after we basically did the primary goal of the sentients for them and virtually exterminate the Orokin for them.

As such by going with Ballas in sacrifice she was buying us time to prepare for the sentients return, and leading us to weapons both threw direct visions and i feel threw manipulating the sentient ballas into giving us the sword.  

 

(rest is just speculation on my part)

Given that she did travel threw the void to come back while seems the rest of the sentients have used some sort of ftl drive instead thus she cant reproduce her self she could feel a connection to us threw some sort of unknown void energy link and consider us her children as she does because of it.  she could feel more in common with us than other sentients having been so "void corrupted" as she is 

[-STR-Lotus]

the non-leader army is easily defeated

if Lotus goes, Tenno will be disabled and the enemy will win the battle easily

[Cubewano]

4 hours ago, 8lbs said:

the instructions that we blindly follow, capture this agent, exterminate this battalion, steal this data and more. the is a THREAT to everything in the system not because of the power she commands (the tenno) but because of the information she gathers. Impo i do not think the lotus was neutral. we were just another faction working against the others in the system. the tenno *now* without the lotus are free agents and truly neutral, however with the lotus at the head we were used to facillitate her long term goals. a sleeper agent who effectively secured power to use for sentient gain.

The potential for evil does not equate to one being evil, if that was the case the tenno would be far more evil than the lotus as we are pretty much the strongest military power in the solar system presently speaking. As for acquiring power for the sentient faction, everything after the orokin fall works against that notion, with the orokin dead literally the only opposition the sentients had in regards to dominating the system were the tenno, who Natah had completely defenseless and in cryosleep, it would have been effortless for her to dispatch of them and give way to a sentient rule, but she didn't, instead she kept the tenno safe to the best of her ability all the while leaving any sentients in the system buried and incapable of action. The fact that every time she interacts with a sentient enemy she is chastised for her choices further drives home the clear truth that none of her actions were done in the best interest of the sentient faction. She didn't help them publicly, nor did she do so secretly, so how was she working for them? 

[Rivyn]

So, could somebody clear this up for me? Why is everybody saying the Lotus 'betrayed' us? She left, sure, but how does that spell our betrayal? She hasn't acted against us, so far as we know. Her motivations haven't been spelled out. All we have are assumptions at this point. Yes, she's back in her sentient form, but does that equate betrayal? 

I just don't see it as betrayal, just yet. At the same time, wouldn't we be betraying her by acting against her? We've followed her directions once she whisked us from Orokin control. Her motives were our motives, more or less. Where she led, we followed. Deviating from that to go our own way, or to act against her; wouldn't that be our own betrayal? 

[Atsia]

11 minutes ago, Rivyn said:

So, could somebody clear this up for me? Why is everybody saying the Lotus 'betrayed' us? She left, sure, but how does that spell our betrayal? She hasn't acted against us, so far as we know. Her motivations haven't been spelled out. All we have are assumptions at this point. Yes, she's back in her sentient form, but does that equate betrayal? 

I just don't see it as betrayal, just yet. At the same time, wouldn't we be betraying her by acting against her? We've followed her directions once she whisked us from Orokin control. Her motives were our motives, more or less. Where she led, we followed. Deviating from that to go our own way, or to act against her; wouldn't that be our own betrayal? 

IMO, it's mostly just the part of the player base that doesn't like the Lotus being more vocal thanks to her leaving and the Chimera Prologue giving them ground to stand on. There are a lot on clues that say that something not 100% is going on with the Lotus and shenanigans are afoot, but people want to take Ballas' words at face value (even though we have ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD #*!%ING REASON to even trust him and anything he says) and jump on the bandwagon.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Atsia
grammer *@##$es

[PepsilonEagle]

On 2018-10-19 at 10:13 AM, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

5.[added] - The Sacrifice, part of the Lotus remains inside Natah for she guides us to Umbra, a sentient killer. Why would she do this if she never loved us? Is this part of the grand manipulation too? I don't think so.

Also, the entire message of the Sacrifice, "It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing, and take away its pain." obviously applies to the Lotus as much as to Excalumbra. That's the "fire" that was "stolen."