[Spoiler] The Lotus didn't 'use us' - She was Real

[Arkfall]

18 minutes ago, DeathDweller said:

Dying to Jade light doesn't leave a corpse behind.

Based on what?? I've never seen anything the remotely discusses the actual process.

the Orokin did have a flair for the dramatic... and it is implied that Ballas has access and ability to interfere or alter the Jade Light system... but chose not too. Maybe. Ballas is a weasel.. who knows what the hell he has done... more so now that he has "betrayed" Lotus for "ruining him"... and basically gave us a Sword to kill his Ex-wife... I wonder if someone at DE is getting some frustrations out though the lore... hahaha....

[Kaotyke]

@fishworshipper I will say that logic is flawed as all hell, let me quote a post I made about "Natah letting everyone recover and then using the Tenno to weaken them" in another thread the bolded part is the one of interest:

Quote

No and no.

It doesnt make sense.

The Orokin were DEAD, no one but the upper chancelons of the Orokin could use the technology since it was genetic coded.

The Empire was in ruins, their leaders dead, colonies scattered, the Grineer just started their rebelion and were not united under a single banner, the Corpus didnt exist, the Infested were driven back to the derelitcs. WHY want for those to regain and amass power before attacking?

In Natah and The Second Dream cleary states how it would all end: Sentient complete victory:

• Ballas becomes delusioned with the Empire that killed his lover, Margulis.
• Ballas turns traitor and gives Hunhow the location and the truth of the weakness of the Sentients' most feared enemy.
• Hunhow, instead of going on a full front assault and suffer more casualities, decides to send his daughter, Natah, and sabotage the Orokin from within.
• Ballas helps Natah infiltrate.
• Natah gets Margulis' form and becomes the Lotus.
• Lotus gets close to the Tenno and gains simpathy for them, she eventually sees them as the children she could never have.
• Hunhow allows the Orokin and the Tenno to "kill" him, making him lie dormant in the depts of URanus, waiting for Natah to complete the "sequence".
• The Sentient leader presumed dead, the Orokin throw a system wide victory party, unware of the deceit.
• The Tenno, likely urged by Natah, betray the Orokin at that moment, the head of the snake was cut. Now... Natah had to dispose of head itself since it could still bite: the Tenno. Once she did it... the major threat to the Sentients would be gone. She would search her father, awaken him and the War would resume, and this time, it would be a complete slaughter ending with Sentient victory...
• But that didnt happen. Natah became the mask, she came to love with the only thing standing between her people and victory.
• She puts the Moon, where the true Tenno are, into the Void, where no Sentient can go.
• She doesnt wake her father.
• And as the growing powers of the Corpus and Grineer find the Warframes Cryopods and kills them, Lotus sees the only means for her to safely interact with "her" children  being destroyed... she starts to awake them so they can actually defend themselves.
• Lotus has her true nature discovered (Natah), she has to bring the Tenno back to real space (TSD)...
• But then a wild Ballas appears from the tall grass and rips the mask out of Lotus' eyes... Lotus is gone, only Natah remains.
• Natah returns to the Sentients... but is seemly confused, she has been the mask for too long... what will result from that? We will find out in The New War.

 

9 minutes ago, Arkfall said:

Based on what?? I've never seen anything the remotely discusses the actual process.

We have.

Crewman Synthesis:

Spoiler

They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore.

 

[ExcaliburUmbra]

15 minutes ago, Arkfall said:

Based on what?? I've never seen anything the remotely discusses the actual process.

The Simaris synthesis entries give an idea. The Detron Crewman entry describes death by the Jade Light as “erupting into a flash”, becoming “nothing but mist and gore”. Doesn’t sound like the bodies are left intact if you can identify pieces of them.

The entry even details the process of judgement before an execution.

Edited October 19, 2018 by OmegaZero633

[Arkfall]

1 minute ago, Kaotyke said:

Crewman Synthesis:

  Hide contents

They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore.

 

Thanks for that man, I forgot about that.

Well that shoots that idea in the ass, partly anyway. Given that Ballas was the creator of Helmsmith, and had access to the Jade Light system... I seriously doubt he is above tampering with the system to his own ends, especially if he wasn't above doing Continuity and what he did to Umbra Dax.

Guess I'll need to wait for the New War.

However it plays out... Umbral Chroma Prime and I are ready.

[seprent]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Pizza_Parker said:

I just thought that ballas controled her mind first time she left us and then the sentients totally brainwashed her.

can you really brainwash something that is mechanical the way i see it over time natah using the memory of margulas to keep us calm familiarity in a unfamiliar world kinds of thing and over time idk if anyone else noticed she started getting more and more distant as we discovered ourselves in quests less compassionate in her tone trying to treat us like children since that is what margulas did she only dealt with the young ones. Were growing up thinking for our selves she only really has the memory of how to deal with children as time went on more and more people starting being a influence besides her and she started getting more and more distant to us i think the prologue was her making a decision of they want to be independent let them since she only had memories of how to be a childs mother not much a actual mother so even though she clearly told ballas she is not who he thinks she is (were i think she was talking to both of us) and she left she is a machine not a person sentients might be able to think but they think efficiency not feelings if she really wanted to drop this game as i would put it and go back to fighting what better way to hurt the tenno is to just leave 

TLDR: she only knows how to deal with children not growing people so us vying for independence she thought if they want it give it and she left they might be thinking machines but i doubt they have the same thoughts on emotions are we do 

[seprent]

45 minutes ago, Kiwinille said:

The sentients don't need us to weaken the origin system. We're the only thing that can stop them, why would Natah/other sentients pretend to be with us when they could have killed us right away easily instead. No one else has void power/technology to be a threat to sentients but the Tenno and their warframes. So if in the end it's true that the theory of Natah actually using us from the very begining, it's gonna be a bad written plot.

to make us hesitate if the lotus is our paternal figure that means emotion attachment when you fight something that you love even in idea you will hesitate to harm it if you recall the sacrifice we asked what did they do to you like her normal look was her true form to us and they transformed her like she (or her mother) did to ballas  

[Arkfall]

1 minute ago, seprent said:

to make us hesitate if the lotus is our paternal figure that means emotion attachment when you fight something that you love even in idea you will hesitate to harm it if you recall the sacrifice we asked what did they do to you like her normal look was her true form to us and they transformed her like she (or her mother) did to ballas  

Well, clearly they missed this mark on some of us... hahah...

[VoidWraith]

Her original purpose was to exterminate us. But it changed after absorbing Margulis' memory I guess, and for a time she has acted in our interest? But now, as you have given the example of the New War trailer, it is clear that now she has possibly and highly likely finally sorted out her priorities (mostly likely her original mission).

Depending on how the New War quest plays out, I know that i am very likely to just off spacemom. And Ballas too (we will never really be true allies, and i'd rather get rid of potential threats).

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Arkfall said:

Well, clearly they missed this mark on some of us... hahah...

yeah story effect can be hit or miss but i can see what they were going for 

[Arkfall]

1 minute ago, VoidWraith said:

 i'd rather get rid of potential threats).

A Tenno after my heart.

[CriticalFumble]

1 minute ago, fishworshipper said:

Of course, but also keep in mind that the vast majority of their military might is directed at eachother. My point in saying that they are capable of killing individual Sentients is that with the full backing of their military they might be able to take on more than we think they can, and certainly enough to give the Sentients pause about brute forcing it. 

We see dismantled drones, which appear in small groups - usually - but do you see a report on how bad the losses on the Grineer/Corpus side was? 

I mean, in the Sealabs you only see the Oculysts amid a massacre of Grineer.  Then of course the Corpus could be completely taken out of play if the in-lore anti-tech ability of the Sentient shows up.  And on the Plains, Vay Hek can't manage to take down an Eidolon, apparently.  Eidolons are incredibly weakened, which could be the case with most or all modern Sentient forces - but it still doesn't look good.  A properly executed massed assault from Sentient forces rather than the probing strikes they're using right now could possibly just roll up all resistance. 

Just taking out a few drones is not enough to hold them back - the Orokin needed Tenno to match the Sentient, the modern factions certainly will too. 

[MagentTanau]

At this point, I think both Lotus/Marguilis/Natah and Ballas have been essentially 'ghost hacked' - to use GitS terminology. And both are being used as pawns by Evil Space Sentient Grandma. Think of who would be the greatest asset to the Tenno and even the Origin System as a whole in a New War - yes, the Lotus. Deprive the Tenno of her, and we'd not be utterly rudderless - we have Clans and the 'Tenno Council' (which would be nice to somehow fully appear in game in a quest somehow) -  but lacking crucial intel, direction and experience on fighting a Total War against the Sentients (we have stasis amnesia and only vague recollections and memories remain of the Old War).

I don't trust a thing Ballas says to us in the Chimera prologue - its all to just a Sentient attempt to further drive a wedge between the Tenno and the Lotus

The gift of the Paracesis from Ballas is perhaps the only indication that the 'ghost hack' isn't perfect - or it could be just yet another red herring thrown our way from the Sentients. 

[Rivyn]

Eh, doesn't change much for me. If I'm given the option to side with Space Mom, good or bad, I'll do it. Let the rest of the solar system burn. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

Only thing I really dig is the idea that it might split the Tenno from just being a faction into also being a brand new race.

DE will have done it right, imo, if every player gets the option to choose Lotus' fate permanently and then the chips can fall where they may.

Folks that execute her get to join one of the other Factions (Red Veil, Steel Meridian, and etc) and and we get a bunch of new enemy NPC of opposing Factions as well as possibly Tenno as an hostile Faction too.

Alternately, Tenno that remain aligned with her get to face off against enemy factions including their aligned Tenno as NPCs. 

[tobascodagama]

Agreed, OP.

Plus, why should we trust Ballas just because he's hurt and scared? We've already seen through Umbra's eyes what a monster he is.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

I think "The Lotus" is in the helmet, whoever wears the Lotus Helmet gets brainwashed into being The Lotus, kinda like the neural sentries in the Orokin Tower missions. Kinda like "The Power Crown" but whoever wears the Lotus Hat becomes Space Mom

 

Either that or Ballas programmed a sentient to "be his dead wife" but the reprogrammed sentiment loved the Tenno just like Margulis did. 

[-STR-Lotus]

what I've been saying for a long time....

[-STR-Lotus]

6 hours ago, (PS4)AleDiorio said:

srry, ama Ballas'ı tercih ederim! Onu öldüreceğim! 

You see in your dreams

[TARINunit9]

Lotus was real

Was

Past tense, not present

[GrayArchon]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

4. Practicalities of mission script - The practical need of DE to address the standard Lotus 'patter' we get in basic missions. If she is evil and we have to kill her off (as there is no 'bringing her back' if she's manipulated us the whole time, DE need to address the basic message chat. Will we just have the fake version forever? And why would we if she was full of '****' the whole time? Would DE really go to the effort to rerecord a new 'handler' for these basic missions? Lotus for people pre chains of harrow (lotus) and one for after (Teshin?) - I doubt it.

Yeah, I think too many people gloss over this. This logistical point is the reason I'm very certain that, at the end of this narrative arc, we'll get the Lotus back and things will return to exactly the way they were before. The Lotus is too integrated into the whole Warframe experience. Her symbol is Warframe's logo and is everywhere in-game. Removing her would be like removing Excalibur from all promotional material.

No matter what narrative twists and turns the quest lines take, we will certainly end up exactly where we started. The logistics of the game demand it.

There's always a chance I'm wrong, though. I would have said that having a character creation screen locked behind 100 hours is logistically a bad idea, but Second Dream is Second Dream, and so far that's worked out for them.

[GrayArchon]

6 hours ago, DeathDweller said:

About the trailer she doesn't say "your fire".Still trying to find to find out what it is but even if you slow it down and change the pitch you'll hear 2 words "the something" which ends in a "th" and fire.

 

[DeathDweller]

44 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

 

Well they messed up then even the punctuation is on "your" making it sound like another word

[(PSN)Lowk721]

4 hours ago, seprent said:

can you really brainwash something that is mechanical

Yes. That's called reprogramming.

4 hours ago, seprent said:

she left she is a machine not a person sentients might be able to think but they think efficiency not feelings if she really wanted to drop this game as i would put it and go back to fighting what better way to hurt the tenno is to just leave 

If the sentient had no feelings they wouldn't want revenge for what the Orokin did to them. And Lotus isn't the only one who has shown a willingness to go to the extremes for her child. Hunhow wanted to kill the Tenno out of love for Lotus because it felt that they corrupted her. 

Sentients are just that. Entities that have achieved sentience. They love, show fear, get angry, and worry even for each other. Lotus even sound anxious when asking her mother what she needs to do. They have their own mentality and perspectives on things.

5 hours ago, seprent said:

TLDR: she only knows how to deal with children not growing people so us vying for independence she thought if they want it give it and she left they might be thinking machines but i doubt they have the same thoughts on emotions are we do 

Lotus has been dealing with more than just Space child soldiers literally as long as they've have been active. How do you think all the other factions were brought together in one place? 
Her actual problem isn't that she doesn't have the same thought and emotion. It is that she's sort of a helicopter parent. She's always looking over the Tenno's shoulders because she worries too much. It's actually one of the most human things about Lotus.

Other then that, as far as independence, She'll let the Tenno do their thing there way unless she feels uncertainty about a particular thing coming for them. She's even referred to the Tenno's experience such as in Glast Gambit and let them make the final choice. Even if it goes against what she thought was best. 

[Drftingcloud]

I feel like people are always forgetting something really important when talking about Chimera Prologue. We all tend to forget just who it is that shows us the vision of Ballas, just because we got a nice shiny sword out of the deal.

Hint: he's not a nice guy.

MitW is basically a manifestation of the Void, which is a representation of nothingness. Sentients are a representation of the epitome of matter, existence and, you guessed it, sentience. They are the ones that's really at odds with each other. We're just caught in the crossfire. Lotus, being a child of existence, developed feelings for Tenno, children of the void. Now Lotus has been taken back to the Sentients and probably brainwashed into wanting to kill us by them, just like how we're being brainwashed by the Void into wanting to kill her.

 

What's really happening in Chimera Prologue is MitW is trying to brainwash you into wanting to kill the Lotus by showing you visions of Ballas, the place to met Lotus in person, and manipulating your feelings, and giving you a weapon capable of the deed. He's the one that guides you to the room and along the way you have shadows that try to attack you. Don't you think that makes no sense? Why would MitW guide you along the way, and also send shadow clones to try to stop you? The only explanation is that those shadow clones are NOT MitW, they might be Rell, who somehow is aware of what the MitW is up to and trying to prevent you from being brainwashed.

Ever wondered why this quest is called Chimera? A Chimera changes colors and blends in, like a shapeshifter, like MitW.

[fishworshipper]

1 hour ago, Drftingcloud said:

I feel like people are always forgetting something really important when talking about Chimera Prologue. We all tend to forget just who it is that shows us the vision of Ballas, just because we got a nice shiny sword out of the deal.

Hint: he's not a nice guy.

MitW is basically a manifestation of the Void, which is a representation of nothingness. Sentients are a representation of the epitome of matter, existence and, you guessed it, sentience. They are the ones that's really at odds with each other. We're just caught in the crossfire. Lotus, being a child of existence, developed feelings for Tenno, children of the void. Now Lotus has been taken back to the Sentients and probably brainwashed into wanting to kill us by them, just like how we're being brainwashed by the Void into wanting to kill her.

 

What's really happening in Chimera Prologue is MitW is trying to brainwash you into wanting to kill the Lotus by showing you visions of Ballas, the place to met Lotus in person, and manipulating your feelings, and giving you a weapon capable of the deed. He's the one that guides you to the room and along the way you have shadows that try to attack you. Don't you think that makes no sense? Why would MitW guide you along the way, and also send shadow clones to try to stop you? The only explanation is that those shadow clones are NOT MitW, they might be Rell, who somehow is aware of what the MitW is up to and trying to prevent you from being brainwashed.

Ever wondered why this quest is called Chimera? A Chimera changes colors and blends in, like a shapeshifter, like MitW.

I would agree, except the things that MitW  shows us are actually happening and we have factual evidence of it. He shows us Ballas controlling Umbra and when we meet Ballas he can control Umbra. He shows us Lotus leaving with Ballas and the first thing Ordis says is that she vanished. He shows us Lotus as a Sentient obliterating Umbra and we find destroyed pieces of Umbra and later a Sentient Lotus. He shows us Ballas presenting a blueprint for a weapon that kills Sentients to us and we recieve a working blueprint for a weapon that kills Sentients. He may or may not have our best interests at heart. He may be cherry-picking info to show to us. But, he isn’t lying. As for the shadows? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. He could just be doing that to f*** with you.

Edited October 20, 2018 by fishworshipper