Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[Ad_Infinitum]

The problem with warframe is simple : for X levels enemies are that kind of easy that you have to afk to die. Or even not then. But when you hit that mystery X lvl then enemies hit so hard that they one shot everyone without immortality. So thanks to that we see on longer missions the same boring squad over and over. And to be honest its the situation where you get zero fun (with right squad like trinity, octavia, nova, rhino its impossible to die and you just throw skills and go afk) or where you die one per one (if you pick something else). You got interesting definition of fun 🙂

[Ikyr0]

The spiders are actually a blast to fight on Alert 4 at lvl 125. And there are some super hard hitting mobs that spawn as well, and Jackals can be fun too. Reverting the nerf was definitely a step in the right direction. I just wish this kind of content was more accessible for those of us who enjoy putting in a bit more effort to get kills.

This kind of scaling needs to be optional, like it is in OV. Want more challenge? Just leave more beacons up. I wish they would introduce this mechanic to PoE at the very least.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Ikyr0

[(XBOX)Eminem2420]

The toxic attitude towards newer players in this thread is sickening. "DE caters towards new players?" Hardly. Every update they have released lately has been content that new players can't even hope to play, so what are you talking about? You want a challenge yet do nothing on your end to make it challenging. You bring the best weapons and frames in the game and whine that its not challenging. That is the most backward logic I have ever seen. Its the best gear in the game, what do you expect? Whether you like it or not, new players keep Warframe alive. New players are much more likely to buy platinum and prime accessories packs. That is just a fact you are going to have to get used to. Do you know why people don't stay in Warframe long? Because this game is notoriously unforgiving for new players. People in game hardly help new players complete missions they are stuck on, and there is usually not any groups playing that node. Take a look at every review ever made against Warframe, and they will all mention how the new player experience is terrible. Your attitude is toxic and is hurting Warframe more than anything. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by (XB1)Eminem2420

[SneakyErvin]

I still dont get how the "vets" think.

End game shouldnt be based on how long you've played, it should be designed around how far you have progressed. There isnt a single online game out there where a new player cant reach end game and be competative within 2 weeks of starting.

So it isnt really a newbie versus vet issue we have in this game, it is simply a lack of direction when it comes to end-game in general. It simply isnt up to snuff no matter what you do. Raised HP and damage output isnt the same as challenging or interesting content. Reverting the changes will do squat for me, I noticed no difference between pre- and post nerf so likely wont see one post revert either. What OV needs are more elites, no matter the alert level. The trash corpus arent interesting to fight no matter how much hp or damage output they have because in the end they will still just be trash mobs with no interesting mechanics, just as they wont be a challenge.

The +HP/damage is what makes most games dull after a while because there is nothing interesting going on. What it ends with is a bullet hell, which in itself is not challenging gameplay mechanics but rather lazy gameplay mechanics. It doesnt matter if the game is called Diablo 3, Warframe, Path of Exile or whatever, it is still the same lazy kill-it-before-it-kills-you "design" when sponges are all you see.

Edited November 18, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Kenmei]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I still dont get how the "vets" think.

End game shouldnt be based on how long you've played, it should be designed around how far you have progressed. There isnt a single online game out there where a new player cant reach end game and be competative within 2 weeks of starting.

So it isnt really a newbie versus vet issue we have in this game, it is simply a lack of direction when it comes to end-game in general. It simply isnt up to snuff no matter what you do. Raised HP and damage output isnt the same as challenging or interesting content. Reverting the changes will do squat for me, I noticed no difference between pre- and post nerf so likely wont see one post revert either. What OV needs are more elites, no matter the alert level. The trash corpus arent interesting to fight no matter how much hp or damage output they have because in the end they will still just be trash mobs with no interesting mechanics, just as they wont be a challenge.

The +HP/damage is what makes most games dull after a while because there is nothing interesting going on. What it ends with is a bullet hell, which in itself is not challenging gameplay mechanics but rather lazy gameplay mechanics. It doesnt matter if the game is called Diablo 3, Warframe, Path of Exile or whatever, it is still the same lazy kill-it-before-it-kills-you "design" when sponges are all you see.

That's something that has been on my mind for a while now. Something that forces you to play reactively and focused, not spinning with a macro with your atterax or bs like that.

When the enemies in OV (mainly on the Toroid farming zones) started cc'ing you to death, with all the jump pads, the shockwaves, etc, I felt that was great. It wasn't exactly hard, but it was, at least for me, something refreshing to experience. Pretty much you could destroy them with the same relative ease as most enemies in the game, but nevertheless, I noticed a lot of people, mainly on reddit, that started complaining about 'too much cc' and that it was 'badly designed' or 'unfair'. Reading those honestly made me really sad.

I've been playing this game for 4 years now. And when it started it was great, not because of the same reasons it is great today.

Back then you only had 4 global revives per day. And you didn't had all the op mods we have now. The movement was running and one basic jump and that's it. You couldn't jump 10 meters nor dash through entire enemy mobs unscathed like you can do now. You died pretty quickly, and energy was scarce, thus casting your 4th ability was sometimes a luxury. And that made you very afraid. At least to me it did. I was very freaking scared of dying.

Now you start somewhat like that, but quickly become so powerful that things just start getting somewhat easy. And that's because all you do is shoot aimlessly or spam spin melee. You don't do much, tbh. The only common enemies that have a somewhat 'challenging' aspect (that I can think of right now) are bursas, where you have to shoot them at the back, and dodge some of their S#&$, but that's it.

What I sometimes think would be cool is for enemies to have a lot of cc and a much more complex use of cover for starters, and then ambush you in chokepoints, rooting you in place, disarming you more frequently, applying various elemental procs on you, etc. Also for enemies to only die of fatal wounds. Not dying from a bullet to the foot or the arm. They should become crippled, of course, but they could keep shooting at you from the floor, for instance.
Also some sort of skill cooldown (because Jesus... Saryn and mainly Mesa are so strong now that it's not even funny).
But the thing is, these things will never happen because... 1st people have already complained about too much cc being applied to them.
2nd People like to spam skills so much and everyone (including me) has become too accustomed to spamming skills that the idea of a skill cooldown would be bashed to hell.

That's why, sadly, I don't have the imagination to think of a way to make things more challenging without going into bullet sponge territory. And maybe the things that I pointed out would be too hard to implement, idk.

 

[Nihil501]

On 2018-11-16 at 11:25 PM, Arniox said:

You missunderstand how fu**ing piss easy even that is for a vet. 

There is NOTHING in the entire game anymore that challenges me. And it's boring as hell. 

What I'd personally love is a setting that allows you to scale up enemy spawns based on your choice. If I go solo, the enemy spawn count is so low I've actually feel asleep at my desk, woken my self up, alt-f4 and played something else. It's so boring. 

And when you have 4 players the spawn count s finally a little challenging, but there's now 4 super overpowered players killing things so it's the same level of difficulty. 

I want to scale it up 10 or 20 times for solo, or 50 times in squads. I want to be Swamped HARD cause then finally I would feel challenged 

I'm just curoius......How many hours do you have in this game?

And besides that. Name an other game which could give you the same ammount of enjoyment in hours  which is free.

And again. Make your own challange. Go into ESO without mods. Or into endless arbitration...i mean...really endless. Set your own scoreboard how long you can last. ect.

You are the source of your own limits

 

[Redfeather75]

Maybe something can be done to initiate a veteran mode.

Also it would be cool if content required building for the right damage types instead of cheesing everything.

[Arniox]

54 minutes ago, Nihil501 said:

I'm just curoius......How many hours do you have in this game?

And besides that. Name an other game which could give you the same ammount of enjoyment in hours  which is free.

And again. Make your own challange. Go into ESO without mods. Or into endless arbitration...i mean...really endless. Set your own scoreboard how long you can last. ect.

You are the source of your own limits

 

I have exactly 3333 hours. I actually took a screenshot cause it looks cool 😛

There's heaps of other games I play more often now: rainbow six seige, overwatch, planetary annihilation, ark, hunt showdown, red dead redemption 2, spider man, God of War, gta 5, destiny, black desert online are just a few of the many games I can play. I mostly play rainbow six seige right now for the real challenges. 

What warframe needs is a proper sense of failure. When you play bad, or mess up, you die and fail. Aberrations are a pretty nice addition, but they're rewards are pretty bad once you have them all. 

And as for your own challenge, I shouldn't need to make my own. In doing so, it proves that the game is made for casual newbs since the only real challange for long term players is them selves... There should be more options for us to play increasingly challenging game modes 

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, Kenmei said:

When the enemies in OV (mainly on the Toroid farming zones) started cc'ing you to death, with all the jump pads, the shockwaves, etc, I felt that was great. It wasn't exactly hard, but it was, at least for me, something refreshing to experience. Pretty much you could destroy them with the same relative ease as most enemies in the game, but nevertheless, I noticed a lot of people, mainly on reddit, that started complaining about 'too much cc' and that it was 'badly designed' or 'unfair'. Reading those honestly made me really sad. 

Lets put a different perspective on this because I'm in the 'not enjoyable' camp...in all honesty being crowd controlled to the point where the game 'wasn't warframe' wasn't fun to me, the crowd control was just annoying and actually made me even less interested in OV, I'm not exactly rushing to play it as is (it's incredibly repetitive just like PoE in all honesty). 

Now, like many others I was drawn into warframe due to the fact the warframes had abilities as well as guns and melee, now I'm not saying all abilities etc are well balanced but it was that combination that pulled me in and has kept me here for 900+ days of logins (and I play on those too).   Taking away these abilities basically turns the game into a run and shoot/melee game and to be perfectly honest there are plenty of other games out there that do that much better.  To put it bluntly, if all I wanted was to use my guns/swords I'd be playing something other than warframe. 

Before you think I'm totally against nullifiers/comba's etc I'm not, yes I find them annoying like many others (especially if they spawn on top of you) but they do add a bit of variety.  The issue on OV is that it's the amount of it, even I can see that and I'm someone who likes using inaros so I can 'face tank' without worrying too much over abilities. 

I did some solo runs for some toroids and by the time 15 mins or so got here pretty much every 'human' enemy was running some sort of nullification or ability removal (admittedly spawns may be a bit bugged at the mo).  To be fair this seems to be more of an issue with 'higher level' corpus enemies as much as the spawning because we did a design council event which was supposed to be high level 'grunts' but in the mission it basically ended up being just nullifiers. 

Then you have those bounce grenades which wouldn't be so bad if they were spread out more but they're clustered which in enclosed spaces basically turns the room into a pin ball machine with you being the ball, especially if the bounce grenade attaches to you (ironically vauban's don't work anywhere near as good on enemies...).    Enemies still have 'pin point accuracy' yet you can't really do anything in the enclosed spaces except 'wait it out', it's a little better in more open spaces as you have a chance to control where you go.  I don't think you can even kill the bounce grenades either because they don't seem to die when I shoot them but that could be a bug. 

The main issue with an excessive number of nullification type enemies is that after a while players will just take one or two frames which don't rely on abilities to stay alive and that sort of restriction is one of the quickest ways to drive players away from new content.  Now yes you can play with any frame but if all you're able to do is shoot and melee because of all that cc, many will just take the frame(s) which have the strongest survivability without the need to use abilities.   Having lots more enemies to fight is fine, just don't turn them all into cc/nullifiers. 

 

2 hours ago, Kenmei said:

What I sometimes think would be cool is for enemies to have a lot of cc and a much more complex use of cover for starters, and then ambush you in chokepoints, rooting you in place, disarming you more frequently, applying various elemental procs on you, etc. Also for enemies to only die of fatal wounds. Not dying from a bullet to the foot or the arm. They should become crippled, of course, but they could keep shooting at you from the floor, for instance.
 

Honestly that first bit would be annoying as hell to me and I would likely quit the game, and I'm sure many others would to because you only need to look at what parts of the game most players play.    The game mechanics never have been rocket science and tbh I kind of like that aspect because it means I can just log in and do some 'mindless' killing after work etc plus not all of us have the free time to do massive multiple hour endless runs (I'd still like higher starting level options on the entire star map as I've said before)

As to the enemies only being able to die from fatal wounds... yeah never going to happen, no offence to DE here, but there's a limit to what they can do in the game due to the game engine. 

It's also changing the game, if you look at how DE play the game you will see they play the game in a lot more 'relaxed' way than many 'hardcore' end gamers want and as we've seen many times DE are designing the game 'they' want to play and hoping we like it as much as they do (not always the case). 

Edited November 19, 2018 by LSG501

[Edzhang]

Even before the nerf, the second time i did my bounty in fortuna was a level 5 bounty, solo with my rank 0 garuda and rank 0 tombfinger kitgun that i just bought.. no other weapon used, and still i thought “this is fortuna’s highest level bounty? What a joke”.. right now, hell maybe i need to make my own challenge to get some challenge because the enemy cant provide them..

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

On 2018-11-16 at 8:37 PM, Arc2199 said:

And yet you cower inside a frame that's pretty much a bullet sponge. Stop thinking your "gameplay" (LOL) is any different level than the rest. There's a reason why people say Nidus is an afk frame.

Frames like mesa , saryn , volt , etc ACTUALLY DIE. My mesa's 95% Damage resistance was falling off at the highest tier bounties. I had to use my skill and weapons to survive.

If I had nidus/inaros? Meh. I wouldn't even need to worry about anything. Press a few random bottoms to build stacks/scarrab armor/throw sand , etc and I'm already a walking bullet sponge. To think actually using abilities is more noobish than sitting like a rock is laughable.

The only reason you point out the meta is because it actually contains * gasps * pressing buttons. Enjoy playing a bullet sponge all your life. I'm sure it's very rewarding "gameplay".

 

Is this how you flex? By playing something that can't die? and throw shade at people who actually carry you through the mission?

'My skill', I love how warframe players actually think Warframe is a game which is skill based. 

 

It's a build based game, your numbers vs. their numbers. This is why, IMO, if you have a meta build content will always be easy. If not, the numbers are too hard for those who don't run the meta.

Please do not be under the impression you are a 'skilled player', and it's only cuz other players aren't at your level of 'skill' that they can't do it.

They just need more endo.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

15 hours ago, (XB1)Eminem2420 said:

The toxic attitude towards newer players in this thread is sickening. "DE caters towards new players?" Hardly. Every update they have released lately has been content that new players can't even hope to play, so what are you talking about? You want a challenge yet do nothing on your end to make it challenging. You bring the best weapons and frames in the game and whine that its not challenging. That is the most backward logic I have ever seen. Its the best gear in the game, what do you expect? Whether you like it or not, new players keep Warframe alive. New players are much more likely to buy platinum and prime accessories packs. That is just a fact you are going to have to get used to. Do you know why people don't stay in Warframe long? Because this game is notoriously unforgiving for new players. People in game hardly help new players complete missions they are stuck on, and there is usually not any groups playing that node. Take a look at every review ever made against Warframe, and they will all mention how the new player experience is terrible. Your attitude is toxic and is hurting Warframe more than anything. 

Amen bro.

Welcoming new players into the fold is always a good thing, mainly because it means the game will keep going. I don't think people realise if they started catering for these players who think they are 'leet', the game would lose new players and therefore money. It's a bad business model catering to these people - who refuse to use anything but the meta and still moan that things are too weak. 

As i've said repeatedly, Warframe is not skill based, 'Leet players' get away from this notion that you are so skilled that you need challenges. You are not skilled - you just have good numbers (build) and if those numbers are hard for the Meta, it makes the numbers impossible for average players who don't run meta builds. 

 

[-Temp0-]

Yeah no. 

The only idea of "difficulty" de can come up with is to stack nullifiers on top of nullifiers that ride nullifiers. Its not difficult, it doesnt STOP you from using abilities at all, its just f.... annoying, especially in fortune when youre just trying to farm toroids but you have to reactivatr desecrate every other second. Same about those moasvaubamwannabe that puts their bouncy balls on you so you cant do anything other than agressively bounce for 8 seconds. Its not difficult. Its simpky annoying as.... It makes you not want to play because of stupidity, not the difficulty. Its like behold - the most powerful and feared thing in the universe beside sentients isso moronic that stupid corpus bot shts on it. What a joke. Any form of cc to the player is idiotic. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by -Temp0-

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Eminem2420:

The toxic attitude towards newer players in this thread is sickening. "DE caters towards new players?" Hardly. Every update they have released lately has been content that new players can't even hope to play, so what are you talking about? You want a challenge yet do nothing on your end to make it challenging. You bring the best weapons and frames in the game and whine that its not challenging. That is the most backward logic I have ever seen. Its the best gear in the game, what do you expect? Whether you like it or not, new players keep Warframe alive. New players are much more likely to buy platinum and prime accessories packs. That is just a fact you are going to have to get used to. Do you know why people don't stay in Warframe long? Because this game is notoriously unforgiving for new players. People in game hardly help new players complete missions they are stuck on, and there is usually not any groups playing that node. Take a look at every review ever made against Warframe, and they will all mention how the new player experience is terrible. Your attitude is toxic and is hurting Warframe more than anything. 

- the main problem for new players is not really that its unforgivingly hard, the problem is that everything is explained so bad

- for example, it shouldnt even be possible that a new player doesnt know what Forma's do after even a few hours in the game when Forma play such an important role

- still, there a tons of new players that dont understand the system and therefore perform worse than they should or could

- there is tons of stuff do to in Warframe, and everything is explained really bad or the information is hidden somewhere

 

- the fact that new players are important for the game shouldnt be a reason to ignore the wishes of older players

- especially when new players need old players to get the explanations they need to make them continue playing, vets are just as important for this game

- if new players have the right to complain about something that is too hard, old players should have the same right -> this cant be simply labeled as "selfishness"

 

- You can say "just dont use Mods, good weapons and good frames to get a challenge" as much as you want, but we already said what the issues with this are

Spoiler

Warframe has a big focus on collecting stuff (Mods, Weapons, Frames, ressources to make them better), and when you have done all that you are not allowed to use all of that so you dont get bored? That is "backward logic" as you call it. Why are we even farming all this stuff like tons of endo, if, in the end we dont even need it? Like so many of us replied in many threads, nerfing ourselves isnt the perfect solution, a game should provide some sort of challenge on its own at some point. If i invested so much time into creating builds, farming mods and whatnot, i want to use that stuff when i fight enemies.

And i also said this earlier in this topic:

Spoiler

Well, whatever the reason is, there are lots of people who enjoyed the pre-hotfix 24.04 type of combat in Fortuna.

Yes, dmg and hp of enemies is not everything, but they play a role and i think in Fortuna, this 2 elements combined with the new abilities and new enemytypes was what actually made it enjoyable and interesting for us. Now, they have only taken dmg away, but it seems this has been enough so the other elements dont matter anymore really.

Its always a combination of many factors, and it seems pre-hotfix all those factors worked together really well.

Now, if you remove just one of those factors, the whole formula gets messed.

 

- i agree with you that if someone really gets toxic against new players, that is kinda stupid. But please look at this topic (and the other topics about this issue like "nerf my guns, not the enemies / M.O.V.G.A.) again and see which group of players gets the most toxicity? There is much more toxicity against those players who ask for challenge! Even when we are diplomatic and accept the fact that the new player experience shouldnt be suffering under the experience of old players, that gets either ignored completly or we still get flamed.

 

- in conclusion, i think the most of the people that are asking for a challenge understand and agree with the fact the new players are important for the game, and that their experience is just as important as ours. But that is the important point, the experience of both types of players matters. I made a suggestion in the Fortuna Feedback section that focuses on catering to the needs of both playertypes. Both groups can play the content in the way they like to play it.

 

- Even if you cant understand in any way why we would want to play content like that and if you cant understand why we would want to fight "annoying" enemies, there should be no reason to fight against giving us some content like that if your gaming experience will not be affected by that in any way. I can completly understand that you dont want something to get implemented if that means you have to play that content. But if you are not affected, why fight against it?

 

- My suggestion is in the following topic. You might say "it has nothing to do with skill", "why would you want to fight those enemies?" and so on, but if we enjoy this kind of content, what is the problem with giving us the choice to play it? We accept that you like it the way it is, and you should be able to accept it the other way around.

 

 

 

[.Themis.]

I played on launch and them had to take a break, i played a few hours ago, the highest level bounty with highest level of alert and... i kid you not, only a single enemy was spawning at a time from those beams, and drop ships would fly by us and drop nothing and fly away.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Kenmei said:

That's something that has been on my mind for a while now. Something that forces you to play reactively and focused, not spinning with a macro with your atterax or bs like that.

When the enemies in OV (mainly on the Toroid farming zones) started cc'ing you to death, with all the jump pads, the shockwaves, etc, I felt that was great. It wasn't exactly hard, but it was, at least for me, something refreshing to experience. Pretty much you could destroy them with the same relative ease as most enemies in the game, but nevertheless, I noticed a lot of people, mainly on reddit, that started complaining about 'too much cc' and that it was 'badly designed' or 'unfair'. Reading those honestly made me really sad.

That's why, sadly, I don't have the imagination to think of a way to make things more challenging without going into bullet sponge territory. And maybe the things that I pointed out would be too hard to implement, idk.

 

They should simply slap more "elites" into the zones/missions, no matter if it is a regular mission or an open world one, alert status and elite mobs like hyenas, jackals and orbs should be a thing. All of them have fairly balanced damage on their regular attacks while their heavy hitting moves are actually heavy hitting.

Fighting the alert status mobs makes the game actually feel like a fight and not just a blender simulator. You need to watch out (even as Revenant) for those special moves and CCs that they bring. The hyenas can be straight up deadly if they catch you off guard fighting something else and they pull off their cone ice or fire attack. And as Revenant the Jackal proxies can really screw you over if you have one standing freely and chipping down your mesmer skin with its mini-gun.

You actually need to think abit about what is around you, something I never do otherwise in WF. So more of these heavy lovely units and less sponge "mechanics" are what is needed. It should be a thing that they can introduce slowly over the maps. Maybe let the level bands decide how high the alert level can go, while the open world areas are always possible to push to the max. Lower planets can just have more eximus units spawn when the alert is on. Then for higher planets they can implement the type of boss-like clones we have in Vallis. They'd just have to come up with some new ones for the Grineer and Infested to fit the elite status they have going with hyenas, jackals and orbs in OV. 

[--PV--Arc]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

'My skill', I love how warframe players actually think Warframe is a game which is skill based. 

 

It's a build based game, your numbers vs. their numbers. This is why, IMO, if you have a meta build content will always be easy. If not, the numbers are too hard for those who don't run the meta.

Please do not be under the impression you are a 'skilled player', and it's only cuz other players aren't at your level of 'skill' that they can't do it.

They just need more endo.

Lol looks like someone hasn't ever played a single high level mission in his life. The only reason you can get away with only surviving on based upon on your builds is because you haven't dared to try content high level enough yet.

Come back in a few years when you got some experience on you.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Arc2199

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

40 minutes ago, Arc2199 said:

Lol looks like someone hasn't ever played a single high level mission in his life. The only reason you can get away with only surviving on based upon on your builds is because you haven't dared to try content high level enough yet.

Come back in a few years when you got some experience on you.

Haha 'dared'....this guy. Your prowess at sliding, pressing shoot and pressing abilities impresses us all...

I have - and it isn't hard mate.

Try an actual skill based game like dark souls.

[--PV--Arc]

35 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Haha 'dared'....this guy. Your prowess at sliding, pressing shoot and pressing abilities impresses us all...

I have - and it isn't hard mate.

Try an actual skill based game like dark souls. 

Lmao. Sorry but if pressing roll is that extend of your skill then maybe you should try something like Peggle instead.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Arc2199 said:

Lol looks like someone hasn't ever played a single high level mission in his life. The only reason you can get away with only surviving on based upon on your builds is because you haven't dared to try content high level enough yet.

Come back in a few years when you got some experience on you.

The only difficulty in those missions is managing to stay awake until the mobs turn into bullet-hell-no-mechanics-inflated-hp sponges. After that it is russian roulette gameplay with zero skill or actual challenge involved. OV is the only place currently where you actually feel the difficulty ramping up without being based around only damage output and HP of mobs. And this is because of the CC moves etc. that the elites (and some regular trash) have. The same CC moves that people QQ flood the forums about.

DE just cant win. People ask for challenging mechanics and content, DE implements CC mobs and heavy hitting special attacks, people cry and moan about it and want braindead HP sponges to be the only thing.

WF is not a skillbased game yet.

[--PV--Arc]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only difficulty in those missions is managing to stay awake until the mobs turn into bullet-hell-no-mechanics-inflated-hp sponges. After that it is russian roulette gameplay with zero skill or actual challenge involved. OV is the only place currently where you actually feel the difficulty ramping up without being based around only damage output and HP of mobs. And this is because of the CC moves etc. that the elites (and some regular trash) have. The same CC moves that people QQ flood the forums about.

DE just cant win. People ask for challenging mechanics and content, DE implements CC mobs and heavy hitting special attacks, people cry and moan about it and want braindead HP sponges to be the only thing.

WF is not a skillbased game yet.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about the Pre-nerf fortuna was true difficulty and you had to stay agile in order to dodge as many bullets as possible and to avoid getting CCed.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Arc2199

[Hypernaut1]

18 hours ago, Kenmei said:

That's something that has been on my mind for a while now. Something that forces you to play reactively and focused, not spinning with a macro with your atterax or bs like that.

When the enemies in OV (mainly on the Toroid farming zones) started cc'ing you to death, with all the jump pads, the shockwaves, etc, I felt that was great. It wasn't exactly hard, but it was, at least for me, something refreshing to experience. Pretty much you could destroy them with the same relative ease as most enemies in the game, but nevertheless, I noticed a lot of people, mainly on reddit, that started complaining about 'too much cc' and that it was 'badly designed' or 'unfair'. Reading those honestly made me really sad.

I've been playing this game for 4 years now. And when it started it was great, not because of the same reasons it is great today.

Back then you only had 4 global revives per day. And you didn't had all the op mods we have now. The movement was running and one basic jump and that's it. You couldn't jump 10 meters nor dash through entire enemy mobs unscathed like you can do now. You died pretty quickly, and energy was scarce, thus casting your 4th ability was sometimes a luxury. And that made you very afraid. At least to me it did. I was very freaking scared of dying.

Now you start somewhat like that, but quickly become so powerful that things just start getting somewhat easy. And that's because all you do is shoot aimlessly or spam spin melee. You don't do much, tbh. The only common enemies that have a somewhat 'challenging' aspect (that I can think of right now) are bursas, where you have to shoot them at the back, and dodge some of their S#&$, but that's it.

What I sometimes think would be cool is for enemies to have a lot of cc and a much more complex use of cover for starters, and then ambush you in chokepoints, rooting you in place, disarming you more frequently, applying various elemental procs on you, etc. Also for enemies to only die of fatal wounds. Not dying from a bullet to the foot or the arm. They should become crippled, of course, but they could keep shooting at you from the floor, for instance.
Also some sort of skill cooldown (because Jesus... Saryn and mainly Mesa are so strong now that it's not even funny).
But the thing is, these things will never happen because... 1st people have already complained about too much cc being applied to them.
2nd People like to spam skills so much and everyone (including me) has become too accustomed to spamming skills that the idea of a skill cooldown would be bashed to hell.

That's why, sadly, I don't have the imagination to think of a way to make things more challenging without going into bullet sponge territory. And maybe the things that I pointed out would be too hard to implement, idk.

 

People criticize Warframe enemies, yet don't realize that Warframe enemies could be very varied and challenging if the community didn't cry for them to be nerfed and turned into bullet sponges every time. 

The problem is anytime we get unique enemies that don't rely on scaling, people call it unfair. 

I would love a difficulty with UNNERFED enemies. A mode where snipees don't miss if you stay still, where rollers demand you look down at them to avoid their cc, scorpions can drag you, scrambas can confuse you, etc.

[--PV--Arc]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

People criticize Warframe enemies, yet don't realize that Warframe enemies could be very varied and challenging if the community didn't cry for them to be nerfed and turned into bullet sponges every time. 

The problem is anytime we get unique enemies that don't rely on scaling, people call it unfair. 

I would love a difficulty with UNNERFED enemies. A mode where snipees don't miss if you stay still, where rollers demand you look down at them to avoid their cc, scorpions can drag you, scrambas can confuse you, etc.

YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I just failed NNN.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Arc2199

[(PSN)Onder6099]

13 minutes ago, Naftal said:

At this point, new players should be ignored completely. They have too much content. Three of my friends have started the game this year and they've all been confused about the lack of coherent progression and the amount of content they can do. This was before Fortuna, which added more stuff for new players.

"It's about time DE starts to give new players something too." ... But they have done that for years now.

Isn’t somehow players called themselves “Veterans” fault, which are screaming for new content, speaking about drought and forcing DE to release new content each week? 

[--PV--Arc]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Isn’t somehow players called themselves “Veterans” fault, which are screaming for new content, speaking about drought and forcing DE to release new content each week? 

Plenty of new content in Fortuna now and even the new spider battles coming up. Just reverting the nerf would be awesome.

Because right now even though the content is there. ITS NOT FUN ANYMORE. IT WAS AT RELEASE TO THE DIFFICULTY.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Arc2199