Magus Elevate and Magus Nourish should be removed from a game.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, BL4CKN0ISE said:

If you're bored, keep asking for harder content to be added. 

Harder content is pointless and frankly, a pipe dream, when we're so brain numbingly powerful.

I'm not going through the full recital, but there's no content that DE can give us that isn't easily cheesed.

Just now, BL4CKN0ISE said:

We will NEVER get anywhere if some people keep asking for nerfs while many of us just want harder content added.

Nerfing makes enemies harder to kill. Tah dah, we have harder content. 

I mean, what do you think difficulty levels are? As an example, a "hard" difficulty that doubles enemy health is exactly the same as nerfing our damage output by 50%. A "hard difficulty" that doubles enemy damage effectively just halves our ehp. It's the same thing, it just doesn't rustle people's irrational little jimmies.

I'm not advocating for the removal of the Magus's (I'd rather they were all reworked as part of a fullscale rebalance), I'm just arguing on the side of... making a good game. Shoddy mechanic after shoddy mechanic held together by duct tape is... not how you create a good game.

Just now, Atekron said:

why game designers decided such massive health regen is okay?

who decided that mod with 90% damage reduction to everything is okay?

why frame can deal tons of damage and be unkillable in the same time?

why they nerf Ember?

Because "power fantasy" is a hard drug to kick.

[deothor]

8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm not advocating for the removal of the Magus's (I'd rather they were all reworked as part of a fullscale rebalance), I'm just arguing on the side of... making a good game. Shoddy mechanic after shoddy mechanic held together by duct tape is... not how you create a good game.

If I were to describe how WF feels with everything they added after operator rework, it'd be this. 

My brain cannot into english today ugh.

Edited January 25, 2019 by deothor

[BL4CKN0ISE]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Harder content is pointless and frankly, a pipe dream, when we're so brain numbingly powerful.

I'm not going through the full recital, but there's no content that DE can give us that isn't easily cheesed.

Nerfing makes enemies harder to kill. Tah dah, we have harder content. 

I mean, what do you think difficulty levels are? As an example, a "hard" difficulty that doubles enemy health is exactly the same as nerfing our damage output by 50%. A "hard difficulty" that doubles enemy damage effectively just halves our ehp. It's the same thing, it just doesn't rustle people's irrational little jimmies.

I'm not advocating for the removal of the Magus's (I'd rather they were all reworked as part of a fullscale rebalance), I'm just arguing on the side of... making a good game. Shoddy mechanic after shoddy mechanic held together by duct tape is... not how you create a good game.

Because "power fantasy" is a hard drug to kick.

1. DE already told us they're gonna give us difficulty levels, so definitely not a pipe dream.
2. Making enemies harder to kill for "DeMonkey" shouldn't be DE's goal if it comes at the cost of making them too hard to kill for other players.
3. Making enemies harder, makes enemies harder to kill. Tah dah, we have harder content and we still have easier content for players who want that.
4. What do you think difficulty levels are? And more importantly, why are you against them, especially since you're interested in Anthem? It's not the same thing as nerfing players. You don't nerf Superman to make his stories interesting. You introduce OP villains so his powers mean something. This is the only way to make an OP character cool for people who like OP characters. Since this is Warframe, I'm sure you're aware that many players enjoy the Power Fantasy, but some of us still like challenge as well. 

Simply put, your way takes something away from players. It only appeals to one side of the community. My way adds more content and allows everybody to get what they want. The real pipe dream is expecting DE to make all of Warframe more challenging. 

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

2 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

You don't nerf Superman to make his stories interesting. You introduce OP villains so his powers mean something.

Yeah no, what you end up with is kryptonite aka arbitration drones because Superman is broken/boring. 

[BL4CKN0ISE]

Just now, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Yeah no, what you end up with is kryptonite aka arbitration drones because Superman is broken/boring. 

I can't tell if you're agreeing or just don't understand the point. Kryptonite is a nerf to Superman's powers. Just like Arbitration drones are a nerf to our powers. I don't understand your point. I said "villains", not gimmicks that nerf powers. 

[Eirshy]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Nerfing makes enemies harder to kill. Tah dah, we have harder content. 

Problem: that only creates bullet sponges.
Bullet sponges both aren't actually harder, and definitely aren't fun.

Something I actually liked the way Eidolons were designed initially- the challenge wasn't in completing the content, it was in speedrunning it because there was a fixed time window you could do it in. Unfortunately they decided to remove nearly everything that could have given the meta some diversity, so it's fairly locked-in. But on release it was very refreshing.

Sporbs have some promise... Profit-Taker isn't a bad fight, it just feels a bit too introductory. It'll be interesting to see what they deliver for the next two. Unfortunately I doubt they'll live up to the Eidolon dream, but at the same time, avoiding creating another locked-in meta like what Eidolons have is probably a good thing.

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

1. DE already told us they're gonna give us difficulty levels, so definitely not a pipe dream.
2. Making enemies harder to kill for "DeMonkey" shouldn't be DE's goal if it comes at the cost of making them too hard to kill for other players.
3. Making enemies harder, makes enemies harder to kill. Tah dah, we have harder content and we still have easier content for players who want that.
4. What do you think difficulty levels are? And more importantly, why are you against them, especially since you're interested in Anthem? It's not the same thing as nerfing players. You don't nerf Superman to make his stories interesting. You introduce OP villains so his powers mean something. This is the only way to make an OP character cool for people who like OP characters. Since this is Warframe, I'm sure you're aware that many players enjoy the Power Fantasy, but some of us still like challenge as well. 

Simply put, your way takes something away from players. It only appeals to one side of the community. My way adds more content and allows everybody to get what they want. The real pipe dream is expecting DE to make all of Warframe more challenging. 

1) Don't be naive. If DE had any idea how to give us difficulty they would have done so by now, instead of giving us more and more power.

2) That's not what I said, or even implied. I simply pointed out the logical reasoning of "make enemies harder to kill" = "harder game". Try not to read too much into it.

3) Don't be naive, again. Do you really think DE can just flip a switch and give us "harder" enemies? Please...

4) Who says I'm against difficulty levels? I used them as an example as to why nerfs aren't a bad thing, and why people get ridiculously irrational about them. Harder difficulty levels are literally just player nerfs, you don't see people getting up in arms about it, do you?

Read my first post here, I advocated for casual and challenging content. Not solely challenging.

15 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

You don't nerf Superman to make his stories interesting.

That's exactly what they do. 

16 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

My way adds more content and allows everybody to get what they want. 

Your way is a childish fantasy. There is no easy solution, there is not gold pot at the end of the rainbow, where you can run off skipping into the magical world of "harder content" with what you have now.

6 minutes ago, Eirshy said:

Problem: that only creates bullet sponges.

Problem: This is a very one dimensional way of looking at things.

It's a sad day when even a fair time to kill is considered bullet spongey... Can't one shot everything =/= spongey enemies.

[Eirshy]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Problem: This is a very one dimensional way of looking at things.

It's a sad day when even a fair time to kill is considered bullet spongey... Can't one shot everything =/= spongey enemies.

It's a sad day when you only use weapons that kill everything in one hit in a game with so many "viable" guns no one person could remember all of them. It's also a sad day when you use the TTK of someone using some riven'd monstrosity to justify making enemies more resilient to damage.

If your only problem is that you're oneshotting everything, how about you ditch a few pips on your Serration mod and play solo for a bit. You'll realize exactly how vapid "just make enemies tankier" idea is.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Eirshy said:

It's a sad day when you only use weapons that kill everything in one hit in a game with so many "viable" guns no one person could remember all of them. It's also a sad day when you use the TTK of someone using some riven'd monstrosity to justify making enemies more resilient to damage.

If your only problem is that you're oneshotting everything, how about you ditch a few pips on your Serration mod and play solo for a bit. You'll realize exactly how vapid "just make enemies tankier" idea is.

You get a "le sigh" from me. Hope you like it.

What is it with people nowadays on the forums and just assuming things? Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Like for example, where did I suggest "just make enemies tankier". I made an point. Nerfing us would result in harder to kill enemies. Funnily that doesn't actually mean they need to be tankier, shock and horror amirite? It could mean that they need weakpoints instead, different AI, front shields etc.

But no no. Keep going.

[AzureTerra]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Until you realize that your teammates are just wiping the map before you can set up shop, rendering your abilities useless.

Adapt, overcome, stay within 50m and reap the exp. Also use the full complement of weaponry the frame has equiped, you dont need to "set up shop" you move with the squad and apply your skills where needed. Only one time have i felt not needed with my Nyx and that was with a 300% Octavia boosting a 300% Ember and Frost in a Arbitration Defense ~ Nothing got near the operative and things were going down so fast that control wasn't needed.

[Eirshy]

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You get a "le sigh" from me. Hope you like it.

What is it with people nowadays on the forums and just assuming things? Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Like for example, where did I suggest "just make enemies tankier". I made an point. Nerfing us would result in harder to kill enemies. Funnily that doesn't actually mean they need to be tankier, shock and horror amirite? It could mean that they need weakpoints instead, different AI, front shields etc.

But no no. Keep going.

Because none of those things- targetting/flanking requirements, or better AI- are "make enemies harder to kill" in the context of nerfing the players. They're "make enemies more interesting to kill". Raising TTKs is what you were suggesting, and you made it clear when you doubled-down on TTKs in your first reply to me.

And on top of that, what is a Nox? A Bursa? Hell, even Juggles implements a degree of weakpoint-required combat.

The problem isn't our lethality, and it's not even (entirely) a lack of enemies that have interesting kill requirements. It's that this game's challenge is in mastering its systems, and once you've done that, it has nothing else to really offer you beyond speedrunning and self-inflicted handicaps.

 

Seriously wondering why the hell I un-ignored you last year. Fixing that now, have a nice day.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Eirshy

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

13 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Adapt, overcome, stay within 50m and reap the exp. Also use the full complement of weaponry the frame has equiped, you dont need to "set up shop" you move with the squad and apply your skills where needed. Only one time have i felt not needed with my Nyx and that was with a 300% Octavia boosting a 300% Ember and Frost in a Arbitration Defense ~ Nothing got near the operative and things were going down so fast that control wasn't needed.

Which is exactly my point.  No on is saying you shouldn't use who you want to.  I'm simply pointing out that the way the game is now, certain frames just seem inadequate in most squads.

Thank goodness for solo mode.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

30 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Your way is a childish fantasy. There is no easy solution, there is not gold pot at the end of the rainbow, where you can run off skipping into the magical world of "harder content" with what you have now.

So what's your point then? Are you just saying there's nothing DE can do? If I stay in a mission for hours, the content gets harder. Why is it such a "childish fantasy" to believe that it's possible to start a mission at lvl 200+ enemies and feel less OP? That's how you feel when you face enemies like that. There's already proof within the game itself. 

 

[DeMonkey]

24 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Why is it such a "childish fantasy" to believe that it's possible to start a mission at lvl 200+ enemies and feel less OP?

It's childish to believe that this is the solution. The game changer. The bringer of challenging content.

It's not, level 200 is trivial. So's 300. So's 400. So's 500. The game is a broken mess.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It's childish to believe that this is the solution. The game changer. The bringer of challenging content.

It's not, level 200 is trivial. So's 300. So's 400. So's 500. The game is a broken mess.

Level 200+ isn't 200. It's means 200 and above. And if you believe 200 is trivial, please explain why. I don't agree because I've used frames that can go ability only up to that level, but then something starts to happen. I realize I need to change my playstyle at that point and above. I need to worry about stripping armor and damage types.  

Anyways, "the game" isn't 200, 300, 400, or 500 for the vast majority of players. If it was, Warframe would be known as one of the more challenging games and these discussions wouldn't exist. Very few people would call Warframe broken because it's too trivial if all enemies were lvl 200 or higher. I'm starting to think you have a childish fantasy where content is just completely unrealistic. How could you enjoy Anthem if you honestly feel that way? You can kill those enemies. That game must be a broken mess then, right? 

[AzureTerra]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Which is exactly my point.  No on is saying you shouldn't use who you want to.  I'm simply pointing out that the way the game is now, certain frames just seem inadequate in most squads.

Thank goodness for solo mode.

To some they are seem inadequate, to the others they are working fine. 

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

Level 200+ isn't 200. It's means 200 and above. And if you believe 200 is trivial, please explain why. I don't agree because I've used frames that can go ability only up to that level, but then something starts to happen. I realize I need to change my playstyle at that point and above. I need to worry about stripping armor and damage types.  

Anyways, "the game" isn't 200, 300, 400, or 500 for the vast majority of players. If it was, Warframe would be known as one of the more challenging games and these discussions wouldn't exist. Very few people would call Warframe broken because it's too trivial if all enemies were lvl 200 or higher. I'm starting to think you have a childish fantasy where content is just completely unrealistic. How could you enjoy Anthem if you honestly feel that way? You can kill those enemies. That game must be a broken mess then, right? 

Well for starters we have frames that will either never be hit or can tank an indefinite number of hits. These frames can keep firing until enemies become too spongey to handle. This is not challenging.

We have frames with scaling percentage health damage, meaning they can reliably damage enemies up until the very highest levels. 

We have means with which we can one shot enemies, ways in which we can perma CC entire areas and an infinite energy supply.

Hell, we had a joke alert that had enemies at level 9,999. The fact that this was even possible to complete shows that there are huge flaws, and that just increasing level isn't the solution.

1 hour ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

How could you enjoy Anthem if you honestly feel that way?

Because, first appearances, the content isn't easily trivialised?

1 hour ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

You can kill those enemies. That game must be a broken mess then, right? 

No?

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Hell, we had a joke alert that had enemies at level 9,999. The fact that this was even possible to complete shows that there are huge flaws, and that just increasing level isn't the solution.

You can't really count that mission because you didn't have to kill any enemies to complete it.  

Edited January 26, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[(PSN)robotwars7]

or you could just use different arcanes. things don't need to be removed from the game just because you disagree with them. the only place this thread is going to is a Lock.

[Aldain]

5 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The game is a broken mess.

Technically the game is only as broken as players make it in most cases, though that's not saying much considering that people have metagame'd Warframe inside out so bad that the only way to get a challenge is to blindfold yourself, tie one hand behind your back and have somebody spin you around on a desk chair for 5 minutes.

[Mr.Fluffins]

Eleveate and nourish are nice utility options, not even close to being broken or "easy mode."

Why?

1. It doesn't save squshy warframes anyway, since they get one-shot most of the time if their other defence mechanisms fail (like CC or mesa's shatter shield). But yeah, it can help recover form a stray bullet... just like a SENTINEL would, without taking you out of the fight.

2. It requires you to stop fighting to heal... so if you already have problems with sustaining health and killing enemies, although the arcane will help you live, it won't help you deal with the actual problem - too many enemies that you can't kill. If you are at a point where you have to spam these arcanes just to survive, then you are either useless to your team in a non-endless mission, or basically done for in an endless. Arcanes won't change that at all, you need to extract either way...

So what do we have in the end? An arcane that is only really usable to heal from few stray bullets, nothing more. Wow, so op.

You know what really is OP, and works exceptionally well when slapped on almost ANY frame? Adaptation. This mod is insane, grindy magus nonsense is not even near it.

 

[(XBOX)Dic3man]

17 hours ago, Chappie1975 said:

you do realize opinions still need evidence right.  You provided none of that.  

Haha I dont think you understand what an opinion is then I'm afraid.

[Makunogo]

hey we also have energy pads, REMOVE ZENURIK.. /s

uh.. lol idk i had nothing better to say. 

[dEjAvU5566]

No matter how "hard" content is, there are always ways to cheese it through.

And that's exactly the point I like about it. I consider Warframe the king of cheese game and it doesn't fail me for many years.

If I want a challenging RPG shooter, mmm nope, that thing doesn't exists, if "harder content = bigger bullet sponge" situation cannot be solved. 

Only extremely restricted player abilities and capabilities that harder and challenging content can possibly do right, and the condition already validate the core RPG playing experience, players needs to feel they grows more powerful. 

Back to the subject, nope, I don't even need these arcanes that I am already immortal, invincible, unkillable in 99% contents, left 1% is the conclave that nobody plays.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

Honestly i feel they're a waste anyways using your operator Arcanes on your wf and not making your operator better when there's already plenty of healing methods available.

But why waste arcanes to make the operator slightly stronger when the only content you really use him in is eidolon hunting? I can understand buffing him for eidolon hunts specifically, but for all other types of content the operator buffs are a complete waste. So the usefull arcanes that are left are the ones that help your frame survive. Or with Repair, yours and everyone elses frame within 20m.