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Nightwave + alerts removal feedback

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Week 4 Challenges comments: I expect a GIFT to all players of 3 Forma before the week is done.

Synopsis: A mixed bag. We have a set of "Acts" that are very doable causally and feel like they'd be at home in the old Alert system. Then we have some just really bad ones. One is an outright offensive "please buy with Plat to complete". Another is less blunt about that PAY angle, but it's way to close to be comfortable.

Once again we have a set of Challenges that do not in any way feel like the casual pick-up and play of random alert offerings. Some are again hard-coded gates that a newer player cannot do.

  • Elite, Unlock Relics: Unlock 0/10
    • This is okay. It is not to crazy time waste to collect 10 relics if you don't have any banked.
      • This would be BAD if required Radiant Relics. Do not every do that. Collecting 1000 Traces in a week of casual or semi casual play is a hard pass.
  • Elite, Kill Shot: Kill 1500 Enemies
    • This is okay. 1.5k enemy murder it doable in a week.
      • 250 a day over 6 days to be safe. This will happen as you play.
      • Although it will be challenge for players in the Early (Earth to Jupiter) and Mid (Jupiter to Uranus) game, and may require a dedicated slaughter day.
  • Elite, Kill Proit-Taker with Friends: Kill Profit-Taker while playing with a friend or clanmate.
    • :facepalm: DE, I know you can't change the these, but no more.
    • This forced socialization is bad. Please acknowledge in a Development Blog post that this will not be repeated in future Nightwaves.
    • In the future this should qualify while playing with at least 1 other person in an Invite or Friends toggled squad. That's what these Squad settings are for. So we don't have to do the awkward dances of Friend/Un-Friend.
    • At least it's better than the 60 minute Survival, and the Sortie with Friend.
      • Sortie with Friend was bad because the completion was tagged to the Award grant on Mission 3. You could not Replay a Sortie in the same day and have it pop.
      • 60 minute Survival was just NO.
  • Rescuer: Complete 0/3 Rescue missions
    • Good. Works like a Rescue Alert in the old system.
  • Protector: Complete 0/3 Mobile Defense missions.
    • Good. Works like a Mobile Defense Alert in the old system.
  • Polarized: Use Forma 0/3 times
    • :shocked::vomit:
    • This is the Aytan socketing Act, but way worse. Oh so very much worse.
    • If you don't have Forma banked you now have to farm BPs which can be very RNG.
    • Forma has 1 Per day build limit. THIS IS A MASSIVE PROBLEM IF YOU COME IN LATE ON THE WEEK
    • THIS IS PAY FOR STANDING!
      • It encourages paying Platinum for the Forma Bundle
      • Playing Plat is the ONLY OPTION if you don't have Forma banked and come in late.
        • Either the Bundle
        • Or to Rush construction.
  • Operative: Complete 0/3 Spy missions
    • Good. Works like a Spy Alert system in the old system.
  • Gilded: Gild 0/1 Modular Items
    • This, is not a good trend for Nightwave.
    • This requires a player to have a Free Slot to dedicate to this process. Especially if they've already completed crafting and Gilding various Modular Items.
      • Again we see PAY FOR STANDING creeping into this.
      • This also requires some major power leveling that Early (Earth to Jupiter) and Mid (Jupiter to Uranus) game players may find difficult to complete in a Week without major dedicated grind. Possibly encouraging desperation buying of "Daily Deals" from Hub (Cetus/Fortuna) vendors.
    • Crafting times are not as horrible as the Forma, but Resource Collection could be a significant problem for Early game players.
      • Faction Standing for the Parts
      • Freeroam resource mining, and crafting.
    • This DOES NOT MATCH well with the casual pickup and play aspect of the old Alerts.
  • Eliminator: Complete 0/3 Exterminate missions.
    • Good. Works like a Exterminate Alert in the old system.
  • Earth Fisher: Catch 0/6 Rare Fish in the Plains of Eidolon.
    • Meh, can also be Not Good.
    • Difficult for Early players without banked Rare Fish baits.
      • Unlike the Fortuna Baits, Cetus Baits require escalating Fish parts to craft. Common parts, build to Uncommon bait, builds to Rare baits.
    • Can be "Taxied" by veteran players tossing out Rare bait for newer players.
      • Which the only saving grace of this "Act". And makes it kind of like the old Alert System.

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Posted (edited)

The Trilodon kill you required earlier was bad enough. At least some poor newbie could have some kind soul(s) carry them through that fight and get their Nightwave credit. I imagine many weren't able to, but it was within the realm of possibility.

But Profit Taker? That's just absurd. Friend or not, who cares? You could just invite some random person and do it together like I did for the Sorties one earlier. 

But.. Profit Taker? Really? You have to be MAX freaking rank with Solaris before you can even attempt that fight. This requires literally weeks of grinding.

In case you forgot, DE, you structured this game with rep grind gates that have a daily cap based on a player's MR. I'm MR 16, already a Cove with 60k+ rep towards max rank. And even I will need a couple days of grinding rep to even be able to even attempt it. Three whole days of grinding, to be exact, since I need just over the 34k I can get in two days.

Mind you, I have that extra 60k rep because I had already been grinding some rep after getting my kitgun because I felt like doing the Profit Taker fight. Just for the luls. Not because grinding rep in Fortuna is fun, or because killing Profit Taker is all that necessary. It honestly isn't. Either "it."

I plan to get it done. At the very least, it is totally possible for me to get it done. That's fine for me. I'm not here complaining for myself.

This is literally impossible for people missing more rep (for MAX freaking rank!) than their MR will allow them to gain in a <7 day period.

Even if you have a mental breakdown, abandon all family, friends, and responsibility, and do nothing but play Warframe for 24 hours straight for a whole week.. presumably forcing yourself awake with.. let's say caffeine for the sake of younger readers. This would still be quite literally impossible if you are beyond a certain Rep threshold as determined by your MR and the corresponding daily cap.

That's 5000 Nightwave points you can't even attempt to get.

Because F you, Dreamers.

Edited by Horyzon
What? Doesn't everyone waste their life proof reading and editing forum posts for fluidity?
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In case you forgot, you can skip this task and still get all the rewards from the pool.

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2 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

In case you forgot, you can skip this task and still get all the rewards from the pool.

Really? That's pretty obvious and so yes I had already realized that. But.. thanks?

 

DE said players would need to do something like 67% of the weekly tasks to get the rank 30 rewards from Nightwave season 1. That's reasonable imo. But a task like this is automatically placed firmly in that 33% that won't--or in this case can't--be done, without any choice to the player. For a significant amount of players, I would wager.

If DE decides that's indeed their intention. Uhh.. alright? It is their game after all. And I said I intend to not be one of those players thus affected. So no real harm to me.. but it's not difficult to imagine how unpleasant this would feel if I were one of those affected players.

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Not everyone has to do everything.  If all challenges were made so that a sub MR4 could run them then there would be no challenge.  As Ksaero also said, you don't need to complete 100% of the nightwave challenges to get all 30 tiers, and even then the later tiers are cosmetic so you can't argue it from a Mastery Points perspective.

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So elite weekly challenges can't be done by everyone? Inconceivable!

Joke aside considering you can basically buy your way to Old Mate using ticker and debt bonds this is a non issue 5o me. Considering how long Fortuna has been out an MR 1 could be most of the way to max by now.

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I've been playing Warframe for just over 100 days. I haven't focused much on Solaris U grind. Just yesterday I got to the 3rd rank. If I could grind out the rest before the week's end, I would, but I am MR 16, and 17k rep per day over 7 days will not be enough to get me there. It's pretty disappointing that the only thing keeping me from completing this challenge is needless daily rep restrictions. They could at least give us the courtesy to turn those restrictions off this week...

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15 minutes ago, Starfreak911 said:

Not everyone has to do everything.  If all challenges were made so that a sub MR4 could run them then there would be no challenge.  As Ksaero also said, you don't need to complete 100% of the nightwave challenges to get all 30 tiers, and even then the later tiers are cosmetic so you can't argue it from a Mastery Points perspective.

You're the second to state an obvious factoid. And likewise the second to fail to explain how it is in any way beneficial to the state of the of the game or indeed anyone that this factoid is indeed true.

Congratulations?

Like what, it makes your little guy downstairs happy that you wasted enough time grinding rep so you can do it when others can't? This improves your life somehow?
Genuine question. Condescending, sure. But genuine. The improving your life one--I don't need the first answered, thanks.

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Ubern00ber88 said:

So elite weekly challenges can't be done by everyone? Inconceivable!

Joke aside considering you can basically buy your way to Old Mate using ticker and debt bonds this is a non issue 5o me. Considering how long Fortuna has been out an MR 1 could be most of the way to max by now.

Hello, third. An MR 1.. who presumably started playing the game 15 minutes ago.. could be most of the way to Old Mate by now.. because.. Fortuna has been out for a while now..

Brilliant.

 

Anyone have anything remotely interesting to say, or is the white knight parade just in town?

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Players that are not in a position to do orb mother are not in a position to get all ranks of nightwave, they get as far as they can in this series and hope to get further in the next. I think the lack of more wolf cred is truly more hindering than the loss of an elite challenge.

 

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Ubern00ber88 said:

So elite weekly challenges can't be done by everyone? Inconceivable!

Agreed. I think its reasonable that elite missions can be slightly unreasonable or infeasible to a portion of the player base. I dont think nightwave is designed to where every player can make it to rank 30 by the end.

Though what is inconceivable is how dare they give me a challenge for 3 formas, the day after I put 5 into my kitgun lol.

 

25 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

That's 5000 Nightwave points you can't even attempt to get.

Because F you, Dreamers.

 

small-violin.gif

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Ramflax said:

 

small-violin.gif

..Okay?


I guess here we have some of those fabled ub3r l33t "harcore gamers" that can't enjoy something unless they know other people have been arbitrarily excluded from it for no particular reason. 

You know. Forget designing a challenge that could be attempted by anyone, but not completed by everyone. Forget taking pride or satisfaction in doing something others tried but failed to accomplish. 

Nah. They couldn't even try, so I are wiener! 

Good ol' case of "F you. Got mine." 

Edited by Horyzon
adding salt
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29 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

Really? That's pretty obvious and so yes I had already realized that. But.. thanks?

 

DE said players would need to do something like 67% of the weekly tasks to get the rank 30 rewards from Nightwave season 1. That's reasonable imo. But a task like this is automatically placed firmly in that 33% that won't--or in this case can't--be done, without any choice to the player. For a significant amount of players, I would wager.

If DE decides that's indeed their intention. Uhh.. alright? It is their game after all. And I said I intend to not be one of those players thus affected. So no real harm to me.. but it's not difficult to imagine how unpleasant this would feel if I were one of those affected players.

You can always compensate with catching prisoners. I've earned more than 5000 rep in just about 3 hours while doing K-Drive 1000000m challenge in vallis.

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I think it should be avoided having a challenge like 3 formas, it really is not an issue you could spend 3 days making them then placing them but for some people who are in good spots with their set ups dont need to forma. Luckily I still need to forma my mesa prime so thats my out for this challenge, but this challenge kind of sounds like encouraging people who dont have formas to buy them instead of waiting 3 days. Like oh look you need to do 3 formas and we just happen to sell them in bundles of three, I am not making this accusation but I could see others viewing it that way.

But for my general feedback for nightwave as a whole:

Dailies should be challenges that basically anyone can do. (Which has been true to this point)

Weekly challenges should be fully do-able  by anyone whos around the war within game progress wise. (Hit and miss so far)

Elite challenges should be fully doable by those who are fully up to date in content and most reputations. (Kinda hit and miss)

I think elite challenges having the possibility of being locked behind max rep for factions is fine, but weekly challenges should at most be locked by rank 2 of factions. Sure things like fishing and mining are easy enough but when your wanting rare fish or rare gems. Some of that is gated behind pretty high rep for what should be a challenge most can do. 

Currently my biggest issues for weekly challenges is they sound either like a small bump from daily challenges or right at the cusp of being called elite. The example of a well balanced weekly challenge that comes to mind was the crack 5 relics.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

..Okay?


I guess here we have some of those fabled ub3r l33t "harcore gamers" that can't enjoy something unless they know other people have been arbitrarily excluded from it for no particular reason. 

You know. Forget designing a challenge that could be attempted by anyone, but not completed by everyone. Forget taking pride or satisfaction in doing something others tried but failed to accomplish. 

Nah. They couldn't even try, so I are wiener! 

Good ol' case of "F you. Got mine." 

Your edit is right, man that is a lot of salt, nah i put the gif there because that last line of yours felt like the perfect spot for it. You do make some valid points, but elite should have a higher wall to completion otherwise its just a weekly challenge the name would be pointless. People being carried through some elite stuff is fine but shouldnt be the norm for all of it. A bigger issue to be addressed is when some weekly challenges are psudo elites, like 3 formas, rare fish/gems. Things like that shouldnt be in the rotation for weekly.

Edited by Ramflax
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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

You can always compensate with catching prisoners. I've earned more than 5000 rep in just about 3 hours while doing K-Drive 1000000m challenge in vallis.

Ok. Fair point. You're essentially saying "you can make up for your previous lack of grinding.. by grinding a lot." It's still a terrible design imo, and I see it as only putting a band aid on something you should probably go see a doctor about. But you've at least offered something of an option. Thumbs up.


Just to clarify, what I see as the problem with this design choice is the arbitrary exclusion of a significant portion of the player base from even attempting to complete this task, to no real gain to anyone else.

 

21 minutes ago, Ramflax said:

Your edit is right, man that is a lot of salt, nah i put the gif there because that last line of yours felt like the perfect spot for it. You do make some valid points, but elite should have a higher wall to completion otherwise its just a weekly challenge the name would be pointless. People being carried through some elite stuff is fine but shouldnt be the norm for all of it. A bigger issue to be addressed is when some weekly challenges are psudo elites, like 3 formas, rare fish/gems. Things like that shouldnt be in the rotation for weekly.

Ok. Why though? Why is it good for these "Elite Challenges" to exclude large numbers of people from even being able to try them?

If DE implements as weekly challenge what might be considered a master level chess puzzle, large numbers of people would be unable to solve it. But they could at least try. If they wanted to badly enough, they could immerse themselves in the world of Chess puzzles and after a grueling week of skipping showers, they might be able to solve it. Or more likely in the age of the internet, they would google it.

But the point is people could at least try to complete the challenge. It wouldn't be impossible before they even started.

I see this as nothing more than "hey, those people shorter than 5'9" or taller than 6'2".. you failed. F you. Everyone else, yaay you win!"

 

I don't agree that the existence of "bigger issues," even if we were to agree those are bigger issues, automatically disqualifies concern over all "smaller issues."

For the luls I'll adress those other concerns you brought up.
Forma? Yeah I don't like that one either. I can't really call a P2W foul since you can get forma for free, but it's definitely a douchy one. Like "hey, you weren't planning to spend forma on anything right now? Too bad. Do it or you miss out." Forma might not be a paid resource necessarily, but it certainly is one of the more rare and valuable resources. I would have disliked "Use 1 forma" a lot less.

Rare fish/gems? I don't have a problem with those. They are tedious, but players have a choice whether or not they want to spend/waste their time pursuing those tasks. And it wasn't something ridiculous like find 30 rare gems. So yeah, I thought those were okay.

Edited by Horyzon
i no grammar gud.
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26 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

Just to clarify, what I see as the problem with this design choice is the arbitrary exclusion of a significant portion of the player base from even attempting to complete this task, to no real gain to anyone else.

OMG. It's an elite challenge.

So I think what you're arguing is that the elite challenge should be accessible to every player.

 

... what.

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Posted (edited)

Continuing on the line of thought of asking why is it good for the game, community, or indeed anyone that these weekly challenges arbitrarily exclude people on the basis of something like grinding faction rep which is gated by daily caps..

Allow me to ask:

Would you be ok with a weekly challenge that required max rank reputation, in the Enemy faction of whatever Syndicate(s) you currently have maxed out. E.g. if you are currently maxed with Steel Meridian, would you think it good game design to have one of these oh-so-Elite weekly challenges require rep for Perrin Sequence, or vise versa?

I.. I would guess not. You'd be right here with me, complaining on the forums in no time flat. 

To undermine my own point a little bit, mostly cus I guess at this point I'm doing this out of pure boredom and not wanting to go grind Fortuna rep.. this is not strictly speaking the fairest of comparisons, since Fortuna rep doesn't exclude any other faction or vise versa.. so technically, if given enough time all players could have it at maxed rank. But my little question still has some merit imo. 

And the bottom line is still, why is it okay for BS arbitrary exclusion? Like would it be okay for them to make an "ELITE Challenge!" that.. oh I don't know, you can only complete if your account was created before 2016, then next week's can only be completed if your account was created after 2016. Would that be okay? No? But it's Elite, right?

Edited by Horyzon
shooting my own argument in the foot
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2 minutes ago, Horyzon said:

Would you be ok with a weekly challenge that required max rank reputation, in the Enemy faction of whatever Syndicate(s) you currently have maxed out. E.g. if you are currently maxed with Steel Meridian, would you think it good game design to have one of these oh-so-Elite weekly challenges require rep for Perrin Sequence, or vise versa? 

No, because the parallel you're trying to draw here is flawed. It would be directly to the detriment of another aspect of the game. I reached max Vox Solaris reasonably quickly after Fortuna release, and there was no trade off - I didn't have to give anything up to do so.

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The definition of elite from oxford dictionary: A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Thats why the elite challenges are structured that way from DE's perspective.

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If a player has not met the requirements, they should probably start working towards that if they want the rewards.  If they don't get it this time, they can catch it on the one. 

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2 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

me and my clanmate got max rank in fortuna weeks ago :v

Well good for you then. I’m also not max rank yet and I have to agree with the other person. We just got Fortuna and I think they should’ve thought of their Switch playerbase. They should’ve at least waited two more weeks before adding this challenge. 

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, (NSW)NeonNebula said:

Well good for you then. I’m also not max rank yet and I have to agree with the other person. We just got Fortuna and I think they should’ve thought of their Switch playerbase. They should’ve at least waited two more weeks before adding this challenge. 

we had max rank for almost 3 weeks now so idk

Edited by (NSW)Katsuro

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, pook-pook said:

No, because the parallel you're trying to draw here is flawed. It would be directly to the detriment of another aspect of the game. I reached max Vox Solaris reasonably quickly after Fortuna release, and there was no trade off - I didn't have to give anything up to do so.

But it's Elite, bruh. It's ELITE! Hardcore! It shouldn't be accessible to everyone. You just chose the wrong faction. 

In all seriousness, I already addressed this in an edit as you were writing your reply. How about this one:

Would it be okay for them to make an "ELITE Challenge!" that.. oh I don't know, you can only complete if your account was created before 2016, then next week's can only be completed if your account was created after 2016. Would that be okay?

What? No? But it's Elite, right? You could have created your account before 2016. And you could make a new one for next week's. And.. I dunno try to transfer the rewards or something. Why that would be even more fair than asking for a Profit Taker kill!

 

13 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

If a player has not met the requirements, they should probably start working towards that if they want the rewards.  If they don't get it this time, they can catch it on the one. 

They.. they can't just work towards it. It's impossible. Because of the daily rep caps. That's.. that's the problem. Thanks for catching up.

Edited by Horyzon
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1 minute ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

we had max rank for almost 3 weeks now so idk

And in contrast, I'm a PC player and only just got Old Mate like a month ago or somethin'. Not everyone grinds out reputation.

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Just now, DeltaPangaea said:

And in contrast, I'm a PC player and only just got Old Mate like a month ago or somethin'. Not everyone grinds out reputation.

it should atleast be a goal since it has a reward at the end thats why I did it and everyone played fortuna last year with all the hype

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