Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Variks_Prime said:

Really, the problems with archwing diversity in free roam are 2-fold:

1: Nobody uses them for anything but travel because they get knocked down too easy and it's just annoying rather than fun to try to use them for engagements

2. There is no other particularly fast option that doesn't consume your frame slot, unless you count void dash which only covers short distances

IMO, the solutions are to make K-Drive the speed option (by bringing it UP TO Itzal spec, rather than bringing Itzal down) since it can't really do much else, and to greatly reduce or remove knockout so that archwings can actually be used for something other than pure movement. Then we will finally see Elytron, Amesha and Odonata on the plains and Vallis. These 2 things need to happen.

 

Even without Itzal using it's teleport I don't think K-Drives could compete due to Air Vs Ground geometry.

But yea making Archwings more effective in combat and more fun to use plays a huge role. A reason to use them is the biggest obstacle I feel. What's the difference between using Elytron's Thumper and just spinning in circles with Ignis? Not much. That's why I mentioned the Warframe of yesterday. We need reasons to pull out these tricks. We have Amps. cool... for what? Eidolons. That's it? Yea pretty much. Arch-guns, we have one real good one finally. Still kinda half integrated into the rest of the game though.

[DeeDeetheSpy]

maybe make those diamond things speed boosts? So you collect them and start going even faster?

[Swagernator22663]

3 minutes ago, Argenex said:

Dear DE,

If you want us to use the other archwings in your Open World environments that many of us hate, then;

1. Remove the magical and invisible one-shotting homing missles of stupid that instantly remove our archwing.
2. Sure, increase the speed of the other archwings
3. We use itzal, not only because its faster, but because both Blink and Penumbra make you lose any homing locks, see point #1
4. Make the archwings at least a real viable vehicle on the plains, right now they just aren't, we use them to move around faster. Staying in one in combat typically isn't viable, again, see point #1.

But as usual, they will narrow-vision and nerfbat one thing making us hate everything even more.... cause its WarFarm after all and all about torturing yourself with repetition and boredom.

Come on man, thats too much work ... we can have like what ? 3-5 new plushies instead of that ? 

[Variks_Prime]

1 minute ago, NeroAugustine said:

We don't want to see K-Drives up in speed to specifically meet the specs of Itzal.

That would be like compairing Operator Amps and Warframe Primaries.
A new casual player gets the K-Drive in Open World first, and they have to work for the ability to use archwing in the same capacity.
It would be pointless to use archwing for travel is K-Drives outmatched all but like, one of them. Not a good option.

What makes it worse is that if no change is made to archwings, and change is ONLY made to K-Drives, then that furthers the uselessness of other archwings as means of open world travel.

The balance, IF ANY needs to be strictly between Archwings. Not them and K-Drives.

Who's we? And you're keeping in mind it would be a special ability that wouldn't prevent you from moving at normal K-Drive speed to get around obstacles, etc, right? Archwings need to actually be able to use abilities in combat - the knockdown preventing them from doing so is why they're only used for travel. Making them all the same just makes them all still equally useless at anything but transit and eliminates any point in even HAVING different archwings in free roam.

[Dark_RRiderr]

Still a step into the wrong direction....

[Gabbynaru]

See, you were angry for nothing!

[Diavoros]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

The funny thing is itzal will still be chosen if they nerf blink because its already the fastest archwing without the ability making the nerf pointless in itself.

Yep even without blink it has the fastest movement speed of all archwings, that only gets better with a maxed Hyperion Thrusters. The Itzal was added with that ability kit long before they added Plains of Eidolons, longer than they enabled archwing flight in open world and of course a much longer time ago than the addition of K-Drives. So its been around for a while, wouldn't DE have thought that the fastest archwing would always outperform the other archwings at travel speed? and even more render obsolete the K-Drives that were made being aware of that potential issue?
As mentioned by CrazyDarkSonic above, the game should have a player versus player racing mode to make those toys really shine. With mod potential to make it even akin to Mario Kart with powerups and traps for rivals. It's the K-Drives that are poorly implemented into the game, not the archwing that was already in it.

[Variks_Prime]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

 

Even without Itzal using it's teleport I don't think K-Drives could compete due to Air Vs Ground geometry.

But yea making Archwings more effective in combat and more fun to use plays a huge role. A reason to use them is the biggest obstacle I feel. What's the difference between using Elytron's Thumper and just spinning in circles with Ignis? Not much. That's why I mentioned the Warframe of yesterday. We need reasons to pull out these tricks. We have Amps. cool... for what? Eidolons. That's it? Yea pretty much. Arch-guns, we have one real good one finally. Still kinda half integrated into the rest of the game though.

You deal with the air vs. ground aspect by letting them jump high enough to get over enough obstacles to matter, possibly with mods, or whatever works. It's a very solvable issue.

[Hawner]

hace 18 minutos, Variks_Prime dijo:

k-drives can't do anything but movement, so it stands to reason they should be really fast, not sluggish and awkward.

 

 

hace 7 minutos, Variks_Prime dijo:

The same speed, as I suggested here: 

We're space ninjas. We can have teleporting hoverboards, or ones that can jump into the air and then turbo. This isn't a game about ordinary kids riding ordinary skateboards at ordinary speeds. They'd be far more awesome if they had stronger movement-related powers.

 

If we are using reason here, K-drives are not meant to be fast. They are skateboards that allow for acrobatics. Archwing, on the other hand, are large jetpacks that are made to allow fast movement through the map and some maneuverability when hovering in the air.

We have 3 ways of traveling, each with pros and cons:

1. Walking/running: You are slow, and it takes forever to cross great distances, but you can find enemies to kill, get loot and experience, mine ores, hunt animals... all the game has to offer.

2. K-drives: A lot faster than walking, but still bound to the ground and the kind of terrain. Still, it allows you for some of the activities you can do while running, albeit you have to choose fast if you want to do them or keep going before you pass them and have to either shrug it or turn around.

3. Archwing: Fast and direct to the point. A straight line to where you want to go. Unless you want to do it slower than the other 2 options, you better forget to do anything between point A and B. In any case, if you wanted to do any of it, you would have chosen any of the other options.

 

Using the right one for your need is what you have to do instead of wanting to nerf/buff the options we have. Why do you want the K-drives to have the same or similar speed of an archwing if it is going to give you the same problems or even more? Why do you want use to use Archwings that have the speed of a K-drive if what we want is to go from point a to point B as fast as possible?

Leave things as they are right now in that regard, they are perfect as they are.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Hawner

[NeroAugustine]

1 minute ago, Variks_Prime said:

Who's we? And you're keeping in mind it would be a special ability that wouldn't prevent you from moving at normal K-Drive speed to get around obstacles, etc, right? Archwings need to actually be able to use abilities in combat - the knockdown preventing them from doing so is why they're only used for travel. Making them all the same just makes them all still equally useless at anything but transit and eliminates any point in even HAVING different archwings in free roam.

Hence making different ones specifically more useful under different circumstances.
I am literally stating that there needs to be more variety, not less.

[Variks_Prime]

4 minutes ago, Argenex said:

Dear DE,

If you want us to use the other archwings in your Open World environments that many of us hate, then;

1. Remove the magical and invisible one-shotting homing missles of stupid that instantly remove our archwing.
2. Sure, increase the speed of the other archwings
3. We use itzal, not only because its faster, but because both Blink and Penumbra make you lose any homing locks, see point #1
4. Make the archwings at least a real viable vehicle on the plains, right now they just aren't, we use them to move around faster. Staying in one in combat typically isn't viable, again, see point #1.

But as usual, they will narrow-vision and nerfbat one thing making us hate everything even more.... cause its WarFarm after all and all about torturing yourself with repetition and boredom.

Yep. If they actually nerf Itzal, we're probably going to get back to the way things were when plains were released, where people hated free roam because it was too lethargic.

 

Warframe isn't a game about being lethargic, or weak. Some of the devs seem to forget that often.

[(NSW)Katsuro]

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

See, you were angry for nothing!

Some things in life you just have to accept since I dont own nor created warframe

[Variks_Prime]

Just now, Hawner said:

 

If we are using reason here, K-drives are not meant to be fast. They are skateboards that allow for acrobatics. Archwing, on the other hand, are large jetpacks that are made to allow fast movement through the map and some maneuverability when hovering in the air.

We have 3 ways of traveling, each with pros and cons:

1. Walking/running: You are slow, and it takes forever to cross great distances, but you can find enemies to kill, get loot and experience, mine ores, hunt animals... all the game has to offer.

2. K-drives: A lot faster than walking, but still bound to the ground and the kind of terrain. Still, it allows you for some of the activities you can do while running, albeit you have to choose fast if you want to do them or keep going before you pass them and have to either shrug it or turn around.

3. Archwing: Fast and direct to the point. A straight line to where you want to go. Unless you want to do it slower than the other 2 options, you better forget to do anything between point A and B. In any case, if you wanted to do any of it, you would have chosen any of the other options.

 

Using the right one for the right need is what you have to do instead of wanting to nerf/buff the options we have. What do you want the K-drives to have the same or similar speed of an archwing if it is going to give you the same problems or even more? Why do you want use to use Archwings that have the speed of a K-drive if what we want is to go from point a to point B as fast as possible?

Leave things as they are right now in that regard, they are perfect as they are.

Except acrobatics are useless to at least 80% of the community judging by practical usage frequency. They need something more. They're nothing BUT acrobatics and movement, and they're currently BAD at movement. That's why it has to be fixed.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

Just now, Xzorn said:

 

Even without Itzal using it's teleport I don't think K-Drives could compete due to Air Vs Ground geometry.

But yea making Archwings more effective in combat and more fun to use plays a huge role. A reason to use them is the biggest obstacle I feel. What's the difference between using Elytron's Thumper and just spinning in circles with Ignis? Not much. That's why I mentioned the Warframe of yesterday. We need reasons to pull out these tricks. We have Amps. cool... for what? Eidolons. That's it? Yea pretty much. Arch-guns, we have one real good one finally. Still kinda half integrated into the rest of the game though.

1.On k drives we we’re told there can be an upgrade to attack while on Hoverboars.

2. Later we were told when Baruuk could pull enemies in when they blocked.

3.Next we were told Hildra would be able to use their weapons when they were hovering.

 

the point: Allow weapons to be used on k drives and buff arch wings to be consistent to current content. Fort nite has their hover boards and allows weapons to be used while on them. We can learn from that example.

[Hawner]

Justo ahora, Variks_Prime dijo:

Except acrobatics are useless to at least 80% of the community judging by practical usage frequency. They need something more. They're nothing BUT acrobatics and movement, and they're currently BAD at movement. That's why it has to be fixed.

Why does someone in real life go with a skateboard? Either to try these useless acrobatics or to move from point a to B at a faster speed than walking. Same in here. You can jump high, you can run fast. If you want to try to do a 360+nosedive+dancingintherain before reaching the ground, you can do it if you want. There is no need to give more speed to something that it is not designed to have it. It is already faster than running, that is enough since it serves its purpose.

[Variks_Prime]

1 minute ago, (XB1)XGN DrFeelGood said:

1.On k drives we we’re told there can be an upgrade to attack while on Hoverboars.

2. Later we were told when Baruuk could pull enemies in when they blocked.

3.Next we were told Hildra would be able to use their weapons when they were hovering.

 

the point: Allow weapons to be used on k drives and buff arch wings to be consistent to current content. Fort nite has their hover boards and allows weapons to be used while on them. We can learn from that example.

I do like the idea of combat being viable from K-Drives, but I still think they need to be able to achieve movement speeds comparable with Itzal on straight lines from a jump (which, used well, will traverse about as fast as Itzal if the jump is high enough to clear most obstacles.)

 

As-is, K-Drives are just purely annoying. Like archwings were before the launcher went infinite...

[Ikusi_Prime]

There's nothing wrong with it being slightly faster than the other Archwings, the problem is that it sets the precedent for being that fast. It is the fastest way to get around the open world areas, hands down. No other Archwing even comes close. If you go to do a bounty with your Odonata on, you get left in the dust and are late to every objective. 

They're not nerfing the Iztal because it's the fastest, they're changing the Iztal because no other choice even competes with it. You need to pick it, or you are too slow to fly with the group. A faster flight speed is fine, but dashing a mile across the Plains makes every other Archwing a joke by comparison. 

[Gorgoroth]

15 minutes ago, Variks_Prime said:

2 is an area denial, 1 is a target protect. They're quite different. And we could just bring K-Drives up to speed and not have to relegate free roam movement entirely to archwings in the first place.

So why can't they combine Amesha's one and two then? Denying bullets is not much different than target protecting from said bullets.

And no, I'd rather they not increase the speed of K-drives. Like I said, there's no way you can go the speed of Itzal on a ground-based K-drive. You'll be running into everything constantly and will be a headache to use. They're already a pain in the butt as bad as sharkwing to begin with.

[Variks_Prime]

Just now, Hawner said:

Why does someone in real life go with a skateboard? Either to try these useless acrobatics or to move from point a to B at a faster speed than walking. Same in here. You can jump high, you can run fast. If you want to try to do a 360+nosedive+dancingintherain before reaching the ground, you can do it if you want. There is no need to give more speed to something that it is not designed to have it. It is already faster than running, that is enough since it serves its purpose.

That makes them as useless as conclave to at least 80% of the community judging from real world experience. Almost no one even wants that in Warframe past the first 5 minutes of toying with it. Just look around and see for yourself. This could be a useful feature, but if it's confined to what it is now, it never will be. Hardly anyone cares about doing skateboard tricks in Warframe if you can't at least go really fast on them as well.

[DeltaPangaea]

Also while I'm *@##$ing about archwing, why the hell are we not able to use gravimag'd archguns while we're using atmospheric archwings?

What the hell.

[Variks_Prime]

Just now, Gorgoroth said:

So why can't they combine Amesha's one and two then? Denying bullets is not much different than target protecting from said bullets.

And no, I'd rather they not increase the speed of K-drives. Like I said, there's no way you can go the speed of Itzal on a ground-based K-drive. You'll be running into everything constantly and will be a headache to use. They're already a pain in the butt as bad as sharkwing to begin with.

Because the work very differently and they stack.

 

And as long as you do a max height jump beforehand, you can get pretty much the same distance as an itzal with a similar teleport. Most of my Itzal TPing is very low to the ground as it is.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

When Fortuna was in development we were told that we would be able to attack while on the K Drive. That has not happened in the months followed. Also in one dev stream we were to expect land rovers and other vehicles. Giving Itzal the tonkor nerf will not answer that. Instead Archwings do need to be buffed; so their stats matter in the open world areas AND we got to see the K-Drive use for weapons to be used. So in all, before we jump to conclusions let’s look back on the things that have to get done.

[Variks_Prime]

Just now, DeltaPangaea said:

Also while I'm *@##$ing about archwing, why the hell are we not able to use gravimag'd archguns while we're using atmospheric archwings?

What the hell.

Because heavy and they want to cripple them to be almost as useless as current K-Drives despite not having the power to go toe-to-toe with many other weapons without arbitrary invulnerability mechanics involved.

 

Sad but true.

[Hawner]

Justo ahora, Variks_Prime dijo:

That makes them as useless as conclave to at least 80% of the community judging from real world experience. Almost no one even wants that in Warframe past the first 5 minutes of toying with it. Just look around and see for yourself. This could be a useful feature, but if it's confined to what it is now, it never will be. Hardly anyone cares about doing skateboard tricks in Warframe if you can't at least go really fast on them as well.

That is because, as someone very correctly put it, we are ninjas, we have to move fast. If that is the need we have, we only need a transport that is fast, which is the archwing, and get rid of the rest. If the objective is near, you don't need an archwing, so you either run OR go a little faster with a K-drive. As I said: correct tool for your need. Each one serves its purpose, no need for any change in that regard.

[Swagernator22663]

As someone already said "We going to nerf itzal, so that the k-drive can suck less".