Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[Xzorn]

Calling it Strategy is a pretty far stretch.

It's a simple choice really. Strategy is a plan that usually involves multiple stages or concepts.

Limitation of choice isn't game breaking however limitation of options can very easily be and produce more problems than it solves. The two are rather subtle differences. Choice is between multiple options. Where as options are your total available choices. Since Archwing is good for nothing but travel. The best travel Choice wins.

The trick is to add more options. Offense, Utility, Defense and layering more concepts than simple travel at that point you have more choices.

What we have now is one option and one choice. Nerfing said choice won't help. Adding more options will.

[Variks_Prime]

2 minutes ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Do recall those delightful near-invisible homing missiles that like every ground enemy seems able to pull out of their arse specifically for archwings which dismount you instantly.

Exactly. It's like he's never encountered them, somehow. I'm not sure why he's saying what he is. Doesn't make sense based on my experience, which seems to line up with a lot of other peoples'.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Hands off my Itzal! 

[NeroAugustine]

Just now, Variks_Prime said:

Exactly. It's like he's never encountered them, somehow. I'm not sure why he's saying what he is. Doesn't make sense based on my experience, which seems to line up with a lot of other peoples'.

I use an Elytron so the missiles aren't a problem for me.

[Marvelous_A]

Pretty sure I called K-drives useless the moment I see the trailer. K drives are just pointless given Archwings are overall direct upgrade of land based vehicles. Plus you don't lose offensive power on an Archwing.

To make K drives useful DE have to give them unrestricted 3 dimensions mobility i.e. a flying skateboard.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Marvelous_A

[Variks_Prime]

Just now, NeroAugustine said:

I use an Elytron so the missiles aren't a problem for me.

Oh, you spam the chaff thing? That works on them? You don't run out of energy or get hit anyways every 1 in 100 missiles? Elytron is probably my least used archwing.

[NeroAugustine]

Just now, Variks_Prime said:

Oh, you spam the chaff thing? That works on them? You don't run out of energy or get hit anyways every 1 in 100 missiles? Elytron is probably my least used archwing.

I only use it whenever the alert triggers, and once tends to be enough.

[Variks_Prime]

3 minutes ago, NeroAugustine said:

I only use it whenever the alert triggers, and once tends to be enough.

Huh, interesting. Usually when I manage to endure some (e.g. with Amesha's defenses) they just keep firing more very often, sometimes ignoring even the invulnerability from the 4 with a lowish energy value. Maybe Elytron is actually the best one for combat currently, didn't expect that, will have to try it sometime. Have you tried this on fracture defenses?

[iGnome21]

It's already ridiculous trashy to only blink 50m forward with max range on openworld. It's a spamfest to go from one side of the map to the other this way, so what the hell nerfing it.

Also the itzal loot vacuum has a very tiny range compared to the archwing version.

So what are they gonna nerf, it's perfectly fine as is.

[iGnome21]

il y a 43 minutes, FreyaValentine a dit :

im pretty sure he was joking

Always late for the joke, 4 days too late in fact.

Well, gotta keep that slow brain warm under that beanie  right.

Edited April 5, 2019 by iGnome21

[TARINunit9]

46 minutes ago, FreyaValentine said:

im pretty sure he was joking

Steve and Rebecca thought Scott was joking, only for Scott to say "no, I'm dead serious, next week when we sit down for our meetings I'm gunna bring up nerfing Itzal because it's broken".

Let's hope he gets 4-to-1 veto'd, because he's pretty much the only one who thinks Archwings need a freaking NERF in open worlds

[NeroAugustine]

Just now, Variks_Prime said:

Huh, interesting. Usually when I manage to endure some (e.g. with Amesha's defenses) they just keep firing more very often, sometimes ignoring even the invulnerability from the 4 with a lowish energy value. Maybe Elytron is actually the best one for combat currently, didn't expect that, will have to try it sometime. Have you tried this on fracture defenses?

Haven't done many fracture stuff, but I could see it being useful if modded correctly.
But when it comes to ground coverage, it's easily the slowest.

Edited April 5, 2019 by NeroAugustine
And another thing

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

The problem isn't Itzal, it's bounties, it's a single extract point, it's tedious brain-dead content like thermia fractures. Scott isn't wrong, but nerfing Itzal is treating the symptom. 

[Paradoxity]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

The problem isn't Itzal, it's bounties, it's a single extract point, it's tedious brain-dead content like thermia fractures. Scott isn't wrong, but nerfing Itzal is treating the symptom. 

That and there's no content for archwings, so Itzal being the fastest makes it flat out best, simply because there's no need for an archwing to do anything other than go fast. More content for archwings- or a rework of existing content- may not be out of order, but I suspect what DE will deliver won't be as comprehensive as we hope it will. 

[TalonBlue]

I wouldn't call Itzal broken. I'd just say that every other vehicle that we could use are just really bad. That's not a player problem, that's on DE problem. That's on DE to design better.

[wargthewarg]

Archwings in open world feel terrible to control for anything except moving from A to B. That's number 1 reason I prefer Itzal over the other archwings.

Using them is like a mount, in most open world games the mounts don't really need to serve any other purpose but to make traveling faster.

The biggest quality of life change was the unlimited archwing charges because it made everything so simple when you're asking us to go 1000m to 2000m between bounty missions. Even the Thermia event you had to go almost from one end of the map to the other to get the canisters and then we were forced to go around looking for the fissures. Several times. 

And my view is that you partly killed the fun of Kdrives with this terrible standing and grind. To me personally it has just left a bitter taste, I feel like because I will never get anywhere but I feel like if I bring it out I need to try to do some stupid repeated/random moves to get some random numbers on my screen to maybe someday find out I got enough to max my drive. It's not fun, and it's a lot slower than flying with less visibility (not to mention all the mountains).
Maybe if you give Kdrives a go fast mode some players would opt to do that. But as it is the grinding part of them are an absolute fun killer for me. It's like that pre-ESO focus grind that barely mattered to chase because you were never getting anywhere anyway so why bother? Yet you grabbed the orb if it was close and maybe one day it paid off a tiny bit. Yet it never feels rewarding.

[METAHUMVN]

On 2019-04-05 at 3:50 PM, Sagittarix said:

Although I wanted to voice my opinion of K-Drives I hope it doesn't distract from the point I am making on Itzal (being that strategic choices do not break the game, in my opinion).

I totally agree with your post sir. 

I also think the issue with the Itzal > all other archwings (in general) is a symptom of lack of archwing functionality, not a symptom of Itzal's OPness. 

This is another case of how: 

The games changes > a current item adapts well to the change, putting every else to shame > that item becomes meta > no uses anything but that item > devs dont like how players only use that item > they try to nerf that item > players protest > the devs fundamentally change the game to accommodate all the other items and pseudo-nerf that one meta item > everyone complains for a while > continued reworks

Unfortunately, I don't think K-Drive buffs OR Itzal nerf is going to really fix the issue. The truth is that Archwing has become universally hated by most players, and most archwings have little functionality in the plains (besides Itzal). This is a new issue brought about with the introduction of open worlds, an issue that has not been addressed because no on really complained about it until the K-Drives came out. 

K-Drives, IMO, are much more fun to ride than Archwings; however, I rarely ride them because practicality > style. K-Drives need to be buffed, Itzal needs to be reworked so that it's not the only meta, and the other Archwings need to be given powers that allow them to provide competitive advantage on the ground. 

As much as I love the Itzal, I personally find it boring that Itzal is the only thing I pretty much use now for anything practical, and over time I've come to despise it. Perhaps once could argue that Itzal's 1 was a mistake in and of itself, because it added a gamebreaking level of mobility to the game to begin with. Who knows? 

Let's just hope this doesn't turn into another point of massive contention between the devs and between players. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by METAHUMVN

[FlinttheImmortal]

Before "open world" Warframe, I never used the Itzal - never saw the need.  My go to was the Amesha.  Once Tridolon hunting was introduced, I started to use the Itzal.  Why?  Expediency.  Outside of Tridolon hunting do I use the Itzal?  No.

And I suspect many others in the community have had a similar experience.  Perhaps even a majority.

The Itzal became relevant because of "open world" Warframe and specifically, Tridolon hunting.  Perhaps Orb fights to some extent as well.  It did not suddenly become OP across all content.  The Itzal hasn't changed.  The content has - and only for certain specific instances.

So, Scott, give your head a bit of a shake and go back to the drawing board.  What is the root of the problem here?  The Itzal's Blink ability?  Or the content for which it has become useful?  And is this actually a problem?  And why does your only solution (only publicly stated one, mind) involve deleting that usefulness?  Can't you do any better than that?  Here's a suggestion: Start developing content for which the other Archwings are useful, for which they might fill a particular niche.  Or, conversely stated, develop content for which the Itzal's Blink ability does not give it such a stand out ability vis a vis the other archwings.  You strike me as a bright lad, I'm sure you can come up with something.  Something a little more nuanced and cerebral than "Nerf it!" at any rate.

Or is it against your, and by extension, the studio's design philosophy to design content for which a particular bit of gear (ex. a particular Warframe, etc.) excels above others?  And should we expect more musings/rumblings about future nerfs into mediocrity in the future?

 

[ir8loki]

I don't understand the reason for the nerf in this instance.... There is no game breaking ability that causes players to bypass objectives or use Itzal in a way it wasn't meant to be used.  So why nerf it ?   How about introducing a speed mod the buffs the other archwing's to increase or "blink" their flight speed?    I don't see how players choosing to use an item like Itzal's speed ability to aid in travel is any different than people choosing to use a specific warframe, with a specific ability to accomplish a task so its more efficient... that's like saying using Frost's bubble or Limbo's rift or Gara's Splinter storm/Mass vitrify to protect a target should get nerfed due to overuse during defense missions.

It seems DE's way of countering the use of an item is to nerf its abilities to decrease player use. Disappointing.  Long term players will still use other archwings, at the very least, for mastery advancement.

[Diavoros]

1 hour ago, Xaelroa said:

It's different from frames in the fact that itzal causes things like players joining into public squads and getting immediately kicked because the host was itzaling around and cleared the mission before the loading screen finished.

By that logic, DE would nerf even further Ember's world on fire, and Equinox maim that wipe ALL enemies in low level extermination fissures before the squad finishes loading.

[HugintheCrow]

Itzal has become new coptering.

There was never anything wrong with coptering nor is there anything wrong with itzal.

However, due to the way melee was previously comparably useless for anything BUT coptering and Archwing is nowadays useless for anything BUT fast movement, those mechanics do stand out as somewhat broken.

The thing is... They aren't broken. The reason everyone coptered and didn't bother with damage melees was because damage melees sucked.

The reason why everyone is itzaling is because nothing else is good enough.

So nerfing itzal will not stop people from using it, it will just make it worse for no real payoff. The other options still suck.

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[DrivaMain]

I could see a huge riot in the community, especially the eidolon hunters community if they nerf itzal. 

Instead of nerfing the archwing, buff K-Drives and other archwing speed to keep up with Itzal, because we all hate nerfs.

[BlindStalker]

@auxy Okay, that's my full reply written up now. Sorry, had to catch bus and wasn't quite done typing.

[mikakor]

what the hell?! #*!% NO they aren't nerfing Itzal's one. No way. The open maps are Huge. Scott, the players loves using Itzal because it's fast. vehicle choice is limited? boo #*!%ing hoo. No one complained about that. people use the most efficient way to travel. Kdrives are god damn slow. If you want to see more choices, you bring all the vehicles up to Itzal level of mobility, because i don't know if it was clear enough, but that's the only reason it's being used on huge maps. Bringing everything up would be good. Players already heavily hates Archwing, and you would want to nerf it even more? i think you need a coffee...   that's not going to fix anything. Yeah, great, players now use more diverse vehicles, because there is NOTHING GOOD else. guess what? Even if you would nerf Itzal into the ground ( knowing that no archwing, what so #*!%ing ever, need any kind of nerf ) people would still just use archwings, as KDrive are nothing else but toys. that's what they are, and no one use them seriously for missions. get over it, and if you want people to actually use them, bring them up to Itzal Level.

( Yes, i'm triggered by how can a dev could think it's a good idea. )

Edited April 6, 2019 by mikakor

[-SR-Nellielsg]

Grinding is already tedious enough, we need to be more efficient in doing so. Cutting down of travelling time is one way of efficiency. 

 

And also, DE are you nerf worm hole as well since u can travel faster using it than k-drive.