Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[kingvaldemir]

4 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

its more that the itzal overperforms not only vs kdrives but every other archwing, everyone uses the itzal for open world if they have it exactly because it so much better, the movement should be reasonably similar for all archwing without 1 standing out as the defacto must have option.

Thing is, open world doesn't require you to use any other archwing's kit because we use warframe for combat, not arch-wing. The only purpose for archwing there is to traverse the open world quicker. Nerfing itzal would simply increase our time spent on traversing open world area while also not effectively make K-drive and any other archwing a viable option.

[NeroAugustine]

On Devstream #126 [DE]Scott brought up serious points on why he believed the Itzal needed to be drastically nerfed.
He explained that he disliked the current premise that IF you want to go faster than any other Archwing, THEN you need the Itzal.

He spoke then on nerfing the Itzal.
I've made another recent post about a similar disparity between the uses of Warframes in 'end-game' and my opinion is similar in this regard as well.

Instead of nerfing the Itzal completely, do what you have done with the heavy weapons, to the Archwings themselves.
There are three Archwing environments:
-Space
-Aquatic
-Atmosphereic

There are four archwings, the default, and three unique ones.
So why not modify the speeds of each of these three, where each one has an advantage in one of the three environments?
Yes, that does mean nerfing the Itzal some, but not in every case. Additionally, you'd be buffing other archwings, and providing a situational advantage.
The positive of this route is that it provides balance of equipment, without manually balancing stats, so instead of making every archwing equally good in all cases, thus limiting the point of possessing a certain model, you are providing heightened performance for each one, in a varied spectrum.

If I were to personally contribute to what I thought made sense:

Amesha would be perfect for mastering atmospheric flightspace. Aoe, and support needs a present but malleable element to flourish in.
Itzal would be space, as it deals in gravitational and light manipulation. No need to muddy up the playing field with air and gravitational pull.
Elytron, lastly, would be a good aquatic archwing. It's powerful thrusters, and heavy duty explosives need a medium to reverberate through.
Odonata would, of course, be a good jack of all trades, specifically balanced to perform reasonably well in all environments.

In a game that is due to only broaden its horizons, why not simply broaden the capabilities and situational utility of each archwing as opposed to limiting them?

Edited April 5, 2019 by NeroAugustine
Emphasis

[Wendigo49]

I use itzal for getting around the map a lot easier and it helps a lot in that way.

[Ham_Grenabe]

Potential nerf to Itzal is completely pointless, because as @kingvaldemir points out, we only use it because we have a distance to travel and it does the job well, but that's it. It's just a vehicle. 

We're not thinking about Itzal strategically, we're just interested in getting to the location, because we're usually on the clock. Itzal is basically the equivalent of bullet-jumping in a starchart mission: it covers ground fastest, so therefore we use it. Like I said in the other thread, K-Drives are fun side games, like fishing or mining.

If they wanted this to be different, they should never have permitted Archwing in the Orb Vallis in the first place.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[LSG501]

The only way the dev's are going to force me into using the k-drive to traverse around an open world is to physically remove archwings....if you do that I won't bother with open worlds, I'm already bored of them so it won't be a great loss.

I don't like k-drives, I just don't like how they control and I hate the fact I need to level them for no reason other than to get my mr standing, they shouldn't have been tied to MR and should have been a side 'mission' we can access for racing or stunts etc. 

Archwings will ALWAYS be faster than k-drives when we can fly over rather than around the mountains....the simple fact is that k-drives are poorly thought out for a mountainous map, they're 'fine' (albeit slower still) on PoE.

This is an issue that DE brought on themselves, they added something that wasn't needed or good enough 'just because' players were asking for it....not everything people wants is right for the game.  If DE wanted to add k-drives what should have happened is that they should have been the transportation on PoE with it's flat open map, archwings should have been for OV and no use of the k-drives there. 

Itzal should not be punished because DE added something that wasn't right for a map.

 

In all honesty it annoys the hell out of me when 3 of us are waiting at the exit and one player has decided they're going to crawl back to the exit from the other side of the map on a k-drive when the rest of us have used our archwings, hell I've been in situations where we've finished a bounty before a k-drive user has even got to it's location... we don't have all day to wait for a k-drive to catch up.

Edited April 5, 2019 by LSG501

[Wendigo49]

The itzal I use mainly for getting around the maps like the plains and orb valis I don't think it needs a nerf just because it gets around fast.

[auxy]

2 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Are they mad about people not using K-Drives or something (I guess they must be)? 

K-Drives are like fishing and mining - they're side games, a little Tony Hawk in your Warframe. If he's worried about traversing stuff too fast, Scott really ought to look at how people play starchart missions. 

The argument as I understand it is that people want to use K-drives, but doing so is (at least) inconsiderate to other players who will use their archwings to get around.

People want to use their K-Drives for traversal, when that's simply not a good way to play. Basically, people want them to be more than toys.

2 minutes ago, (PS4)sealed_jsword1 said:

Maybe allow holding boost on k drive longer to get to high speeds exceeding archwings.
Normal : holding forward
Boost : R3 (ps4)
Fastest : holding R3 for 1.5 seconds (ps4)

Could be interesting, but there's still the flight vs. (essentially) ground problem. K-Drives have to go around obstacles, while archwings can just fly over.

————————————————

PERSONALLY, I think the argument is moot. You're never gonna have the K-Drives be relevant for traversal on the existing maps. Make a labyrinthine series of sewer tunnels or something, where using an archwing is extremely inconvenient.

Maybe the backblast from the jets when hovering kicks up corrosive goop, while K-Drives can just glide over.

Something like that is what's going to be required. When you have these giant open arenas, K-Drives are never going to be anything but toys.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Here's the problem: If I am doing a bounty, the only thing I want to be doing is the bounty. I don't want to spend 2-3 minutes traveling from one side of the map to the other. Itzal gives me the option of being at the next objective in 30 seconds or less.

Removing Itzal's ability will only drag out mission times, slow down the grind, and aggravate the player base. The only way this would be acceptable is if bounty placement algorithms were very careful to keep bounty stages close to each other.

If DE removes this without carefully addressing travel time between bounty stages, then they will just be recreating the same sets of errors they did with Forma and XP that led to Draco, and ultimately the N00blshowtek ban incident (not his ban per se, but the other players who followed his method).

The basic problem is this: Anything that drags out the time spent for no real reason other than to drag out the time spent is a bad mechanic and should be looked at carefully, but DE tends to be a bit reactionary and not take the time to understand underlying problems.

[Diavoros]

If they want to make K-Drives appealing to use over archwings, they should allow us to use weapons while riding them for DRIVE-BY shooting fun, also make them faster. And not nerf Itzal's speed, which is the main thing that archwing has going for it. Imagine they nerf Volt's Speed ability for making players be faster than K-Drives.

[DeeDeetheSpy]

My thing is that Archwings get knocked out of the sky so damn easily. I would so use the others more if I didn't get sneezed at and knocked down. Like for example, Amesha has some amazing abilities that are useless because you can't stay in her long enough to keep them being effective.

[The_Mustachio]

What’s k-drive? Oh ya, the slow clunky surf board thing. I forget they existed. Been flying around with my badazz Itzal!

[Ham_Grenabe]

In the end, it will hardly affect me. I forget to use blink most of the time. I just think this is such a trivial thing to focus on that it's hardly worth even the minor amount of grief it's going to cause some people. 

[LSG501]

Just now, DeeDeetheSpy said:

My thing is that Archwings get knocked out of the sky so damn easily. I would so use the others more if I didn't get sneezed at and knocked down. Like for example, Amesha has some amazing abilities that are useless because you can't stay in her long enough to keep them being effective. 

That's a different issue altogether in all honesty, we've been complaining about that since PoE release....

[Wendigo49]

The average archwing is faster then a K-drive not counting the itzal archwings will still be used regardless because they are faster.

[neuroticweasel]

I actually like this idea. Though a lot of people would be mad if they did anything to the Iztal.. This suggestion is also relevant to why you may need to also level up all 4 (5) ARchwings.

 

That being said, I feel we need more archwing content.

[DeeDeetheSpy]

4 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

That's a different issue altogether in all honesty, we've been complaining about that since PoE release....

I figure if you had more viable use for other wings, People wouldn't just go for speedy wing and drop out into frame mode.

[auxy]

1 minute ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

My thing is that Archwings get knocked out of the sky so damn easily. I would so use the others more if I didn't get sneezed at and knocked down. Like for example, Amesha has some amazing abilities that are useless because you can't stay in her long enough to keep them being effective.

Eh. You can. I don't mean to be rude, but this really is a bit of a "git gud" scenario.
Make use of boost in combat, make use of the side-rolls and Y-axis (up/down) dashes.
I've used the Amesha on the plains for tens of hours with little (not "none", but "little") difficulty.

4 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The basic problem is this: Anything that drags out the time spent for no real reason other than to drag out the time spent is a bad mechanic and should be looked at carefully

Ultimately I agree with your post overall, especially this part. Nerfing things to make other things better in comparison is just terrible game design.

Again, though, Scott isn't wrong. Being able to blast across the entire Plains in a matter of a couple of seconds is ... pretty game-breaking.

I suspect DE's reaction will probably come in large part down to how many players ARE using the Itzal this way.
If it's a lot, then their change will probably be more moderate.
If it's just a few players "abusing" the archwing this way (I don't feel that it's an abuse), then it will probably be more severe.

In any case, I don't know that there's a really good answer for this.

[Lokidus_Prime]

Itzal should NOT be nerfed.  It's strength lies in its mobility... whereas something like the Amesha is the go-to Archwing for protecting things / not dying, which works really well in archwing missions.  But most people don't really play archwing missions, nor do we have a major use for archwing other than mobility in open world areas.  Part of this is simply because literally every other enemy + their turrets have anti-archwing homing shots that instantly knock you out of archwing if you get hit by it (that also ignore most archwing abilities btw), and they fire it frequently enough that it makes archwing only useful for mobility.  Since there is only one reason to use archwing, it makes sense to use the archwing that has the greatest strengths for that one single role.

To put it simply, DO NOT NERF Itzal... GIVE people reason to use the other archwings in open world and FIX Archwing (which may or may not be something somewhat integrated in with Railjack).   K-drive's current only function is for mobility - Give K-drives some other reason to use them -(hell, maybe new bounties to hunt down targets/coil drives/etc in caves/tunnels where you cant use archwing)

Adding in new content with no true reason to use and play said content ("its fun" just sometimes isn't enough.... it should be both fun AND rewarding) and then nerfing something that serves the role it was intended to do is just a terrible move, and is only a small little bandaid when the true issue is much more widespread.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Sin1989

[Almagnus1]

The problem with the Itzal is that there's not enough other content to take advantage of the other Archwings... so everyone just goes with the Itzal cause the archwing movement model is complete garbage and Itzal's utility just makes open world content that much easier.

[Variks_Prime]

Overcomplicated and would just probably end up creating 1 or 2 new "required" archwings to replace Itzal instead of opening the playing field.

[TARINunit9]

Nerfing archwings because K-drives aren't being used is similar to the old "wallpapering over a crack" idiom. Except even worse, it's more like tearing down a completely different house and not even using any wallpaper on the wall that actually has a crack in it

[Xzorn]

The funny part is Itzal is still profoundly faster than a K-Drive without using Teleport or even other Archwings.

• 1.2 Flight Speed
• Hyperion Thrusters
• Afterburn
• Air Vs Land

I would propose they make Archwing Combat more effective and improve the value of the other Archwings instead.

I did a lvl 125 cap Toroid farm with Amesha.... cuz it's #$%^ Amesha and it's straight up Godmode in Archwing form.

Was pretty fun really but yea, they should improve the Ground + Air play style more and it might all fall into place. I'm playing Mesa DPS then swap halfway through to Amesha Support. That's so cool and it works for that specific Archwing but not so well for others. Making them freaking fly straight would be nice also.

[Pancoar]

What next? Nerf Nova portal, Zephyr, Volt???

Punish Itzal which has been around much longer just because k-drives are mediocre and not fun or worth the ridiculous grind.

Itzal was fine all this time, now k-drives are around so it's nerf nerf nerf. Makes me hate k-drives even more now, nothing DE can do that will make me bother using one.

[NeroAugustine]

4 minutes ago, Variks_Prime said:

Overcomplicated and would just probably end up creating 1 or 2 new "required" archwings to replace Itzal instead of opening the playing field.

Would you rather Itzal be nerfed to where it has little to no proficiencies over the other archwings?

[Kialandi]

I have to agree with Scott on this one.

Itzal is just coptering 2.0