remove self damage from zhuge prime

[Eis_Katze]

Remeber when we got the leaked images of Cernos prime?

 

Yaaa... I still cry about what it turned out to be too.

I am surprised the thunderbolt isn't a alt fire though, especially given how many new weapons tend to use alt fire. However, if bow explosion dmg is your issue, may I suggest using a Lenz with multishot and mirage for a week? I feel like you won't have near as many issues with suiciding.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

3 hours ago, trst said:

Except people began exploiting the mechanic to turn Trinity into the single best nuke frame in the game. She also was able to do so at zero cost where Nyx at least drains more energy the more damage she absorbed.

It doesn't matter how long any rules are in place; the moment they begin causing problems they need to be changed. Especially when the issue is a single outlier, being Trinity, and not a mechanic as a whole.

Again, Sancti Castanas were the problem since it allowed Link to chain attack groups of enemies. Regular Castanas did not have this effect, nor any other explosive weapon. Neither Trinity or Link were the problem, which is why no one complained about it for so long. Don't feel bad though, DE didn't understand this either.

[AzureTerra]

ah so the bland as heck pretender to be made prime before the actual Tenno Repeating crossbow has something interesting about it at least then

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

17 hours ago, EmberStar said:

If it's just one weapon out of several *hundred*?  Yes.  Yes it is.

It's not the only one though.. And Tonkor can one shot an armoured rhino. 

 

12 hours ago, Oreades said:

Yeah I'd be totally fine if it was the Alt Fire

I don't disagree, but it doesn't typically one shot things, it's not silent due to this reason. 

Might as well grab Rubico and silence it. 

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

It's not the only one though.. And Tonkor can one shot an armoured rhino. 

 

Tonkor is a grenade launcher.  It says so in the description, it looks like one, it acts like one.  Unless you *specifically* add a mod, the grenades don't stick to targets.  You can aim them at the floor and blow up a specific *location* a few seconds after you fire it.  You don't need to worry about the grenade plinking into a Scorpion who teleports to you and THEN blows up in your face.  I'm not sure if the Lenz explosion sticks to targets or not, because the freeze effect goes off first and generally makes it super unlikely that anything in the explosion zone is going anywhere.  The Lenz freeze sphere *also* gives you a nice visual indicator of where the explosion will be, which makes it a lot easier to visualize what's going to get blown into kibble or not.

Zhuge is a high fire rate crossbow.  And at least when I looked earlier the description didn't mention *anything* about how all the arrows are really time delay grenades.  That have no slow or root mechanic to keep fast melee units that *don't* die on impact from giving you a nice big hug.

It if was up to me, *ALL* self damage would be removed from the game.  Especially now that they have removed it from some weapons like the Cyanex and Staticor, it just feels random and inconsistent which weapons will kill you for using them, and which ones are perfectly safe.  And if you dare to argue "realism," then they should go full Troll, and all explosive weapons damage *everything,* no exceptions.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

18 hours ago, bibmobello said:

I think the best solution was to add an alt fire to shoot explosive  arrows...

What’s this?  Using DE’s best game design feature as a way to make all parties happy?

Ahhh, “Choice”...how we so often overlook you...

But then how would threads like these survive?

[makaloff95]

I havent been able to play since the PA launched, does Zhuge prime have a alt fire with explosive arrows or is it built in thunderbolt on primary fire? 

[BloodKitten]

uh, maybe try to use it properly? i have 0 issues with the self damage since i understand when i shouldent shoot it, you have secondary and melee for a reason.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

So how are people blowing themselves up.  Of the different weapons that can blow up in your face i have only ever killed myself with lenz once.

Its not hard guys to control the situation.

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, makaloff95 said:

I havent been able to play since the PA launched, does Zhuge prime have a alt fire with explosive arrows or is it built in thunderbolt on primary fire? 

Built into the primary fire.  Which is why some people are annoyed.  The bolts aren't super high damage (to enemies) by themselves.  But the explosion can pretty easily one-shot most frames, even if they aren't going to bring down Eximus Chargers or Grineer melee units, and people are getting killed by their own weapon.  I'm still not sure if Wukong's clone produces self-damage or not, which is fun since you have basically no control over what he's shooting at most of the time.

Zhuge bolts detonate a few seconds after impact on the primary fire.  I don't believe the weapon has any kind of alt fire mode.  Also, Thunderbolt has no effect at all on this weapon, in case someone decided to be silly and try to stack the explosions.  Or at least it didn't when a youtuber I watch sometimes decided to *be* silly and try to stack the explosions.  (Thunderbolt detonates 30% of the time on impact, and there were no explosions when the bolt hit the target.  Just the delayed detonations that seem to be the weapon's Prime gimmick.)

[EmberStar]

2 minutes ago, BloodKitten said:

uh, maybe try to use it properly? i have 0 issues with the self damage since i understand when i shouldent shoot it, you have secondary and melee for a reason.

 

Just now, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

So how are people blowing themselves up.  Of the different weapons that can blow up in your face i have only ever killed myself with lenz once.

Its not hard guys to control the situation.

Because it's not really obvious it *IS* a self damage weapon.  It's a crossbow.  When I checked, the description kind of failed to mention that it was actually a time-delay explosive launcher.  And people are blowing themselves up because the bolts aren't super powerful until they explode, and things like Charger Eximus and Grineer melee units are actually pretty fast.  And the explosion damage is still plenty powerful enough to turn almost all Warframes into instant kibble, even when they barely harm the enemies you're shooting at.

Not a problem FOR YOU does not mean it's not a problem AT ALL.  And it's obviously an issue for a lot of people.  You aren't having an issue with it.  Good for you.  That doesn't mean people are somehow stupid for not knowing that a weapon that isn't described as explosive, and is a variant of a weapon that isn't explosive, is actually explosive.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

9 minutes ago, makaloff95 said:

I havent been able to play since the PA launched, does Zhuge prime have a alt fire with explosive arrows or is it built in thunderbolt on primary fire? 

Built in thunderbolt effect on its normal fire. Its not hard to avoid the self damage.

People just acting silly and not adapting.

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

That have no slow or root mechanic to keep fast melee units that *don't* die on impact from giving you a nice big hug.

Then melee them, or better yet kill them with the Zhuge so that they do fly backwards. You have a second before the explosion occurs, in that time the base Zhuge Prime will fire 5 total shots. 

If 5 shots aren't enough to kill the fast melee units that are generally pretty weak, then you're likely using it in content it's not particularly suited to. If you're noticing that 5 shots aren't killing these fast melee units, then you know to not use the explosive crossbow on them, and that you'll be better served using your melee weapon.

Are there issues? Sure. But this one seems contrived to me.

5 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

But the explosion can pretty easily one-shot most frames

Only if you forget to build any defence whatsoever.

8 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I'm still not sure if Wukong's clone produces self-damage or not

Ofc not.

4 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

When I checked, the description kind of failed to mention that it was actually a time-delay explosive launcher.

That description?

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Ofc not.

That description?

It's not what it said when I equipped it, but whatever.  It's obviously what it says now, so what I thought it said doesn't matter.

Self damage is still a bad and inconsistently applied mechanic, and adding it to a variant of a weapon that doesn't normally explode is what's causing a lot of the problem.

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

25 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Zhuge is a high fire rate crossbow.  And at least when I looked earlier the description didn't mention *anything* about how all the arrows are really time delay grenades. 

Zhuge Prime description on Switch: "Tenno artistry. Ancient craft. A weapon of surgical precision and devastating effect. Each bolt fired by Zhuge Prime explodes shortly after embedding."

Anyways you die once or twice because you weren't aware, so what, you learn from it. 

You also forgot to mention Tonkor can instantly blow up with enough flight speed. 

Oh @DeMonkey beat me to it, but I doubt they paid to patch that description on console. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by (NSW)Evilpricetag

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

You also forgot to mention Tonkor can instantly blow up with enough flight speed. 

No, I didn't.  It's not relevant, because it's something you have to specifically build for to trigger.  The only possible "edge case" where that could surprise you is if you're using the Zephyr Turbulence augment and don't realize that it would have that effect.  This will barely ever happen, because almost no one plays Zephyr.  Same with the sticky grenade augment letting enemies carry the grenade back to you.  You have to specifically build for it, and the augment can only be attached to grenade style weapons.

[CephalonDizzy]

41 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

To play devil's advocate, I can kind of see how the description isn't immediately helpful.

Zakti explodes similarly to the Zhuge  P. Does not do self damage.

Lenz explodes, and does self damage. Ok, sure maybe itt's because zakti just makes a little puff of gas, Lenz makes a big explosion. So that could be why those are different.

But then you have the staticor, simulor, sonicor. All of which do big explosions. No self damage.

Of course it make sense on some weapons, like the Zarr, Penta, Tonkor. Big fiery explosions. Of course there's self damage.

But then there's the javlok. Makes fiery explosions. No self damage.

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 20 heures, DeMonkey a dit :

3000*10^(100!) IQ mate.

I think you missed a few 0s in there. Lemme fix that

[(PSN)trontor]

The explosive shot should be the alt fire, not the primary one.

And why can Cautious Shot not be used on this weapon?

[Diavoros]

What players are experiencing as "randomness" in the timing of the explosion after hit is a effect of "multishot" The primary bolt of the Zhuge Prime will explode 1 second after hit, however if there are multishot mods equipped and it generates a second bolt, that one will stay attached to the corpse/surface and explode at a random moment, in the case of corpses that are left pinned to a surface or just laying on the ground, will almost always explode once the corpse fades. Also I noticed that the "accuracy" of the projectiles generated by multishot is erratic, and can misfire hitting nearby obstacles like the frame of a door.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

Oh @DeMonkey beat me to it, but I doubt they paid to patch that description on console. 

No, they didn't change it.  I obviously failed to notice it.  It's likely I did what a lot of people who are annoyed did, and just equipped it without really reading it because it's a new weapon to rank up, and then got caught totally by surprise when a variant of a non-explosive weapon exploded in my face and killed me.  And no, the blue clouds as the bolts disappear didn't really help because lots of Prime Weapons still work mostly the same but have different FX, because Prime is Shiny.

Personally, I'll probably deal with it the same way I do every other weapon with self damage - by leaving it at the bottom of the Arsenal and never equipping it.  There's absolutely no reason to use most of them when there are options like the Arca Plasmor and Ignis which will also annihilate huge areas and have no really significant downsides.  If I want weapons that do ten thousand damage to multiple targets in a single shot, I'd rather just use ones that won't accidentally kill me because lag happened.

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, CephalonDizzy said:

But then there's the javlok. Makes fiery explosions. No self damage.

I could be (probably am) wrong, but I think the Javlok and Staticor actually *did* self damage at one point, but it was removed relatively recently.  I think I remember Tactical Potato doing one of his "just for fun" Hold My Beer videos where he and a group of friends all equipped Javaloks and Heavy Caliber, and the game was to see who could survive the longest before blowing themselves into salsa with the explosive javelin alt fire when they had basically no control over where it was going to hit.

[CephalonDizzy]

26 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I could be (probably am) wrong, but I think the Javlok and Staticor actually *did* self damage at one point, but it was removed relatively recently.  I think I remember Tactical Potato doing one of his "just for fun" Hold My Beer videos where he and a group of friends all equipped Javaloks and Heavy Caliber, and the game was to see who could survive the longest before blowing themselves into salsa with the explosive javelin alt fire when they had basically no control over where it was going to hit.

You are correct. And especially for staticor it didn't do self damage originally, then added, and then removed again.

But that's kind of the issue, since to someone who isn't immediately familiar to the specific weapons or kept track of updates, whether or not a weapon does self damage seems to be random.  Sometimes explode-y things hurt you, sometimes they don't. Hence just reading the description of Zhuge P isn't a reliable indication of self damage, especially if the base weapon didn't cause it.

For the record I don't mind the self damage either way. But I think it'd be nice if DE would add an explicit line in the description that says “will cause self damage” for such weapons.

[Methanoid]

22 hours ago, bibmobello said:

I think the best solution was to add an alt fire to shoot explosive  arrows...

This or maybe deal with it "slightly" by adding punchthru, or does punchthu explode regardless?

[makaloff95]

14 hours ago, EmberStar said:

Built into the primary fire.  Which is why some people are annoyed.  The bolts aren't super high damage (to enemies) by themselves.  But the explosion can pretty easily one-shot most frames, even if they aren't going to bring down Eximus Chargers or Grineer melee units, and people are getting killed by their own weapon.  I'm still not sure if Wukong's clone produces self-damage or not, which is fun since you have basically no control over what he's shooting at most of the time.

Zhuge bolts detonate a few seconds after impact on the primary fire.  I don't believe the weapon has any kind of alt fire mode.  Also, Thunderbolt has no effect at all on this weapon, in case someone decided to be silly and try to stack the explosions.  Or at least it didn't when a youtuber I watch sometimes decided to *be* silly and try to stack the explosions.  (Thunderbolt detonates 30% of the time on impact, and there were no explosions when the bolt hit the target.  Just the delayed detonations that seem to be the weapon's Prime gimmick.)

Oh lovely, when finally Zhuge gets a prime version it becomes a automatic version of Lenz (i truly dislike the Lenz). Welp, MR fodder it is then.